The Daily Beast Podcast - Ivanka Trump Is Never, Ever Going To Be Forgiven

Episode Date: November 10, 2020

She may have been hoping to spend her days jet-setting between Davos and Aspen—when she wasn’t mingling with Manhattan’s gentry. But only the super rich get those kinds of second chances. And that ain’t Ivanka. “They get forgiven because they have billions of dollars—they can float a charity. Someone like [New York Jets owner and ambassador to the UK] Woody Johnson, who's given millions and millions of dollars to Trump and who has been a real Republican piece of shit, will get forgiven because he can donate and donate, right? Someone like Ivanka, who is so clearly an eyesore—and isn't so rich—ultimately, she’s not going to get forgiven,” Molly says on the latest episode of The New Abnormal. The best Ivanka Trump can hope for, Molly Jong-Fast says, is a scuzzy reality show, like her dad. Speaking of the Trump family, Mary Trump joins the crew to discuss her uncle’s electoral loss. “It's amazing. On the one hand, losing is the thing that is the worst thing to do [in his mind]. But he's never won anything ever… never won anything legitimately. Legitimacy means nothing to him because his ego is such that if he gets the win, just by virtue of cheating, lying, stealing, he knows he deserves to win. So it's okay for him to cheat, lie, and steal.” In happier news, famed scientist and physician Eric Topol says the early results about the new COVID vaccine really are a ray of hope. He believes it might even be a so-called “superhuman vaccine… meaning it’s even more powerful than the typical human response,” he tells Molly. “We could see the virus having a hard time finding people to infect by mid-year… This virus will probably be endemic. It'll be here for years. But it's just going to have a harder time finding people.” But don’t throw out your masks or anything, he warns. “They're going to be really important in 2021… First of all, the vaccines, when we talk about 90% efficacy, that's against pneumonia or getting your body infected with illness, it doesn't sterilize the upper respiratory tract. That is the nose. And so you could be a carrier of the virus. You’re going to have to wear a mask because you won't know if the virus is sitting” in your nose. So, not back to normal any time soon. But we’ll take it. Want more? Become a Beast Inside member to enjoy a limited-run series of bonus interviews from The New Abnormal. Guests include Cory Booker, Jim Acosta, and more. Head to newabnormal.thedailybeast.com to join now. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi folks, it's Rick Wilson, and welcome to The Daily Beast's The New Abnormal. Hi, I'm Molly Jongfast, a left-wing pundit and editor at large at The Daily Beast. I'm also an editor at The Daily Beast, a former Republican political strategist, best-selling author, and full-time troublemaker. We're here to have fun, sharp conversations with some of the smartest people in media, politics, business, and science that help make what's happening in the country and the world clearer. I'll try to keep Rick to the minimum number of F-bombs and try to keep our... kids, pets, and other wildlife sounds from invading our respective bunkers. Hi, Rick Wilson. Good afternoon.

Maui Jong Fast. Tell me what the fuck is going on. Let's go. The world is spinning on an axis for which we have previously anticipated, and the beginning of the post-electural fuckery is on. So we hear that Bill Barr has been cited. Bill Barr has been cited going into the Senate Majority Leader's Office, which is also typically considered an omen of the apocalypse.

If there was a rain of blood or ravens carrying the bones of children in their mouths, spelling out words as they dropped them into the St. Peter's Square, you know, any number of other things, esoteric omens, would be quite remarkable. What kind of fuckery is happening now? I'm not sure, but I suspect he may be trying to softly inform Mitch McConnell that Donald Trump is going to fight to the death. Right. And do you think Mitch McConnell is going to go along with it or no? This is an open question right now, and I'm not sure what happens next, but we're going to see a very interesting outcome here, no matter what, because no matter what Bill Barr does, he cannot overcome the fact that Donald Trump lost in the electoral college. And short of some set of concatenating miracles, he has going to still be the loser. He will go to his grave as the loser, the losing loser who lost. How would he even not be the loser? Well, it would require multiple miracles in multiple states of actual factual evidence of voter fraud, and then it would require courts to assess those and say, we have to reorder the count or what have you.

It's not going to happen. The question is, does Bill Barr convince Mitch McConnell to go along with it anyway? I think it's entirely possible right now that Bill Barr is saying to Mitch McConnell, hey, listen, Donald's going to fight this all the way down. I just have to give you a heads up. Now, there are other possibilities, of course, is that Barr is telling McConnell, you know, Trump will leave quietly if we'll just load some gold bars onto the car and let him flee to Saudi Arabia in peace. But it's definitely going to get very testy in Washington because Trump is going to continue to drive on this angle of, you know, I won, it's fake.

who knows what news Mitch McConnell is, or Bill Barr is bearing to Mitch McConnell. Who knows? It could be something completely innocuous, or it could be him saying basically, Trump's going to duct tape himself or hog tie himself to the golden throne, and we're going to have to drag him out of the White House kicking and screaming. Which, by the way, if that does become the case, it's really important that we do pay-per-view for that. It will cover the national debt. Either way, I think we can agree there will be fucker.

Oh, yes. and great quantities of it. Huge quantities of fuckery. So DJ TJ is now saying... That's right. His Christian name, DJTJ. As he has referred to in the church. That's right.

So Filsa number one has been saying that it is nefarious that the vaccine has been released just two days after his father's humiliating defeat. And of course, Pfizer doing this proved them right when Mike Pence tried to take credit for it. Do you guys have any thoughts on this? Well, I have a thought on it. And my thought is that Don Jr. is having a very bad day. And he can't get his friend on the line. You know, the guy with the delivery, he can't get him on the line.

He's getting really nervous. And why are these ants under my skin? I feel weird. I can't stop talking. I feel weird. I'm itching everywhere. Oh, I'm sorry. That's not me.

That's DJTJ. My favorite DJTJ of the day is that he's saying, well, maybe we'll run his independence in 2024 if you don't do what we want. I'm like, dumbest threat. ever. My favorite is his girlfriend delivering a lap dance or strip tease to a Republican donor. Did you see that in Politico? I saw it and I've been awake since then.

Fearing what dreams may come if I shut my eyes and the thought of Kimberly Guilfoyle performing an act she calls You have our first beeps. You're going to have to beep that. Yeah, that's getting beeped. It turns out that hiring your kids to fundraise for your presidential re-election is not a great move. Who could have seen it coming? Is this sort of shocking?

Everyone. So in other really fun news, it seems that even though the electorate has closed in on Donald Trump, the virus is yet again circling again with. Matt Gates getting it, Mark Meadows, and Ben Carson now. If I may quote the political philosopher's Depeche Mode. I don't want to start any blasphemous rumors, but I think that God's got a six sense of humor. These guys getting COVID are absolutely so fucking on brand for the dumb assery of this. It's astounding.

Yeah, it is kind of amazing. It's astounding. Well, I don't know about you, but Ben Carson coming down with it, the famous Dr. Ben Carson, who weirdly has had nothing to say on the COVID front, except to praise the glories of hydroxychloric when I think the guy is, it's just so fitting that these guys are all getting this. It's like, it's like, it's on the day that Biden's COVID task force. And today Biden's got a task force of people who are, who are scientists, doctors, epidemiologists, health care specialist, pharma distribution specialists, et cetera. And the White House has infected Dr. Ben

and of course Scott Atlas, our longtime friend Scott Atlas. Has he gotten it yet? Not yet, but I'm sure he's looking forward to it. I mean, it is just an amazing thing. It really is, and I think the contrast is going to open up faster than people think in their heads. Oh, David Bossy has it too. Oh, that's nice for David. David really is a sort of member of the grifter Trump Demiomond.

who got thrown out, got back in, got thrown out, got thrown out, got thrown out, got thrown out, got back in. And a lot of these guys right now, and I, since we spoke last, I've had a couple conversations with people who have confirmed for me that no one in Trump world, no one except Donald Trump himself, believes there's a path out of this, right? When I say no one, I mean, including Jared Navanka, Meadows, they all know it's over, right? But guys like Bossie and Lewandowski and Bannon for as long as he can stay out of jail. They're all preparing these epic fundraising plans that will go in three phases.

They will go in phase one, help us get this election back on track. We won and they lost and all we have to do is find Hunter's fourth laptop to prove it. The second wave of that is they betrayed him. They betrayed him. Now they must pay. We must take this to the Supreme Court so Amy Comey Barrett can vote against us. because it's all ludicrously short of the truth. No, it's kind of amazing.

Yeah, and it is utterly certain that the stab in the back myth is now the central part of the Trump folklore. That's why DJTJ is threatening to run as an independent. You either stand with us or we'll blow everything up. It's like, do what I want, or the dog gets it. Yes. DJ TJ, I don't think he's the future of the Republican Party. I'm going to go out on a limb here. Why not?

Because he's so dumb. I mean, even, I just think he doesn't have the charisma of his father or, I mean, I just don't see that playing out, but I'm curious. I disagree with you on that. Really? You think DJ TJ? He speaks fluent asshole, okay? He loves it.

And the, what does the Trump base want? They don't want policy. Right. They don't want any of that. stuff. All they want is anger. And they want somebody to say, you're the avatar, you're the avatar of our anger. And he will play that role to the hilt. He will play that role to the nth degree. Right. It's certainly true. That is certainly true. And I don't think Ivanka is the future. No, Ivanka's not the future. What do we think of Ivanka's future is?

Reality television show. She's already shopping. Mm-hmm. Molly's right. She's right. She hates it. Okay, she hates that. She really wanted to spend the rest of her life going to Davos and Aspen and South by Sundance and everything else and being the intellectual Trump. Right. Exactly. It feels like an oxymoron because it is. Because it happens to be impossible to be the intellectual Trump. There is no intellectual Trump. Let me push back to you guys. Do we really think those polite society people are going to be in. polite to them. Like, I don't see the pig's blood getting dumped on her head like Carrie, right? I could see it. I think people are real mad. Listen, when Anna went to her scheming the list of the Metball, she's not going to take one iota of shit for the Trumps.

What I would say is this, in a world where, and this is actually... In a world. Shut the fuck up. As someone who knows this world a little bit, but not as much as... You are the rich whisperer. I would say this. people like that get forgiven because they have billions of dollars and they can like, you know, they can float a charity. Like someone, for example, like Woody Johnson, who's given millions and millions of dollars to Trump and who has been a real Republican piece of shit will get forgiven because he has millions and millions of dollars and he can donate to stuff. Right.

Right. Someone like Ivanka, who is so clearly an eyesore and hard to obfuscate for and then isn't so rich, ultimately, is not going to get forgiven. I just like to think of her photograph on the real estate snipe signs out in front of houses in a suburb of Orlando, Florida. Trump-Kushner Realty. You can move in today to some $3,000, $250,000 beater. I think she's going to end up being the one who ends, who is got the reality television life. And then Jr. runs for some elected office, right? Or maybe he doesn't. Maybe he just. Well, he won't run for it in New York. It's impossible.

Right. So he'll move to Montana or Pennsylvania or somewhere else or Wyoming and try his little celebratard candidacy and we'll see what happens. Yeah. The problem is he is not as charismatic as his father. Oh, no. And he's an asshole. But remember, Donald Trump is a specific flavor.

No one ever thought, well, not no one, most people ever thought, this guy's a genius, man. God. Right. This guy, he's just so brilliant. But at the end of the day, he was able to sort of pull the wool over people's eyes. Yes, exactly, briefly. And had a reality show to do so. I think there's a lot of reality television in store for the Trump's.

A lot. But what network takes it without getting repercussions? Oh, I want to know that. Fox already has no ads on it for the primetime line. Right, but remember, Fox doesn't depend on ads. What does Fox depend on? Fox is paid by the head on cable systems. I don't understand. So if you're Comcast in, you know, ass crack Florida, you have a thousand households.

You pay Fox $7 per household if you're that cable provider, if you want to have them on your network. I don't understand. That's how they really make their money. It's a boring show for a seduit, but it's a real thing. And again, they do not depend on the ad rev. The ad rev is nice. They need it. They would like to have it.

But they do not depend on it to keep the network affluent. So what you're saying is if people want to get rid of Fox as they have to protest their cable companies. That is correct. Interesting. So if you want to put some pain on Fox, you go to the Comcast board and you say, by the way, we're going to make your lives a living hell of eternal desperation. You don't even have to let's sit.

tell them to throw Fox off their air. You used to pay Fox what other networks of comparable ratings get because they get a premium on their rating. Why? Well, they're great negotiators.

They own a specific part of the audience that no one else really has access to. It's an artifact in some ways of the hardball style that Ails and Rupert brought into Fox

and it's a creation, but that's about where it's at. So speaking of other ways that the Trumps may be losing their audience. Twitter has reportedly said that Donald Trump will lose his banning privilege that he's avoided for all this time when he is no longer in office. Have you looked at his Twitter page lately?

It's always like false information, false information, false information. So over under on how long it takes him to get kicked off Twitter post inauguration? Seven o'clock that night. What do you think happens now? You think Trump will ever accept the result? No, he will never the results. It will always be cheated, lied, fake news, fake election. I won, he lost, they just stole it from me. It was George Soros. It was the deep state. It was blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Do we have a hypothesis of why Esper was fired? Well, Eric Trump needs a job for the next 60 days. Don't we think that really what's happening is this is just like the festival. massacre where

Trump is firing everyone he has grievances against? Absolutely. You can expect those things to start in the intelligence agencies tomorrow from what I hear. There's about to be a bloodbath over there. Okay, so Gina Haskell is next. Call me crazy, but

crippling our intelligence services is a goal that many of our enemies have enjoyed for countless decades. I wonder why he's doing it now. So we think this is less vengeance and more to clear way for fuckery. Yeah, I think it's all about fuckery. So what do you mean

fuckery? I talked to someone today who in a security related government agency, who does a lot of continuity of government stuff, which is obscure and creepy and worst case scenario planning. And this person indicated to me

that the Trump folks have been trying to burrow in to their government jobs, like convert their political appointments into permanent positions even though you're not supposed to. They're working very hard on that. And I asked this person, like, well, what's being done about it? And they replied, names are being kept.

But it's going to be interesting to see how much they managed to accomplish in that regard. Because they're going to try to install like little granals into a whole bunch of other parts of the government and into the security apparatus of the government. That's really scary. A bit. Yeah. Biden's going to have. to sweep out that whole fuckeray. As I would like to say, to quote from the sacred text, I volunteer as tribute.

Dr. Eric Topal is a bestselling author and the founder and director of the Scripps Research Translational Institute. Eric Topol, my like guy in the world, who I called you up before I did this vaccine trial, if you remember. I remember well. You were very worried. I know. Talk to me about what you see happening now. Well, I guess the best way, I don't use this term often, BFD, but that's what this looks like.

This is really something because we were hoping for 60% efficacy, and this is 90% with 94 events, which is, you know, not 164. That's the complete trial. Right. But it's awfully good. This shows that we have a vaccine that really works. And it may wind up being 80%, but it's going to be very powerful. That changes the whole landscape in a very positive way. Can you explain to us, first of all, what 94 events means for those keeping track at home

and also what that means about the landscape? Yeah. Well, so the trial has 44,000 participants. That's the Pfizer trial. It's the second largest. The largest is a J&J at 60,000. Is this the largest medical trial in history? It isn't the largest, but it's in that rarefied group, yes.

You know, the Johnson & Johnson is 60,000. But it's these numbers of people in a trial, you know, these are way high end. Now, the 44,000 people, in order to show efficacy, it was set up that you had to show that at least 60% benefit of less infectious. in 164 events at the end of the trial. And so there were interim looks that were planned when the independent group, the data and safety monitoring committee review the data,

and that occurred apparently yesterday, and there were 94 events, not quite more than halfway, but not 164. Can you explain what events are? Yeah, so the events are an infection that's confirmed by virus testing, the PCR testing, and symptoms. It could be cough, it could be any of the symptoms that are associated with COVID. And so this marked suppression of infections was even more than we had hoped for.

And the implications for that, if it holds up at the end of the trial and for other vaccines, will be extraordinary because not only does it look safe, but highly effective, but also that will speed up when we get to this population level herd immunity. Everybody's been talking about that. You only can get that with a vaccine, but you get it much faster, much easier with a vaccine that has high efficacy. People have described this as closer to the measles vaccine than the flu vaccine. Do you think that's accurate? Well, there's a lot of differences that are beyond just the high level of efficacy.

it's high levels of these neutralizing antibodies. And so what we talk about is a superhuman vaccine, which just looks like it might be. Superhuman meaning that the vaccine for measles is even more powerful than the typical human response. That is, when you naturally have an infection and you respond to it for measles, it isn't as good as the vaccine.

We knew from the neutralizing antibodies that were very high, in virtually all these programs, you know, five, six, seven of these phase three programs, it look really encouraging. But when you get to the levels of 90%, assuming that holds up, that's really good because if you go out in the real world and see how many people develop protection, it's not 90% likely. So it gets into this, there aren't many vaccines that are superhuman, but tetanus, measles,

Herpesoster. There's only a few that really qualify in that, and this may wind up being in that category. So is it fair to say that so far, and we're speaking in hypotheticals because it hasn't happened yet, but so far, this is the best possible outcome for a vaccine we could have hoped for? I think that's really true, Molly. I mean, you're never going to get to 100%, but, you know, over 90s, that's damn good. So, yeah, this is far better than expected. And, you know, when the 50 to 60 percent criteria that Pfizer was hoping for 60 percent efficacy,

the FDA threshold was 50 percent. So you just give you a sense of how much better this is than what was expected or the minimal threshold for getting approval. It's amazing. I'm curious to know, in your mind, what happens next? Yeah, so it's going to go fast. Pfizer has to fulfill the safety timetable, which gives them a, couple more weeks before they can file the emergency authorization application. That probably is already

in the works, has been the works, and they're going to get that in, you know, in the next couple of weeks, certainly before Thanksgiving. What will happen then is that there's an internal review at FDA. There's also an external review of experts that it were recently assembled. They will likely, if the data holds up as expected and the safety, which also looks very good, they will recommend EUA emergency authorization. That will occur in December. And the moment that hits, the moment that EUA is granted, vaccines will be shipped out throughout the country to start with the rollout of health care workers. So you're thinking December healthcare workers start getting vaccinated. Unless something happens that's unexpected at this point, yes, we will see the rollout

in medical centers throughout the country, probably mid-December, but certainly before the end of the year. Do you have any other projections for what else we could see in that timeline for the rest of the people? We'll likely see the Moderna vaccine, which is just behind Pfizer. It also will go through the process. It may not be quite as fast, but I wouldn't be surprised if it also gets approval by the end of the county year or early January. So what is the use in having two vaccines then? Oh, gosh, we need five. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, because we got to get everybody, right? Yeah, we got to get 300 million people. Yeah, yeah. But so why not just have the most effective one dispersed? We don't know that yet. I mean, it turns out most likely this virus is not going to be that hard to override with the vaccine.

Thank God. Yeah. Most likely all the vaccines are going to be pretty darn effective. This is an indicator that we're going to see high efficacy, probably across the board. But, I mean, if we have vaccines that are not quite 90, and let's say another one turned out to be 70, well, people will flock to the one that has highest efficacy. We'll have to see. But my guess is they're all going to be pretty darn good. Moderna will be close to Pfizer, right? Because it's the same MRN. Yeah, yeah. Those are the two messenger RNA vaccines, which have never been, you know, at scale, but have tremendous promise.

Yeah, so modern will probably, it'd be surprising if it is in. very similar just because it's a, you know, of the different types of vaccines, it's, it's in the same category. And I suspect it'll be very high efficacy. But we need multiple vaccine programs to get, you know, we got to get a couple hundred million people in this country vaccinated. Actually, the good news of today, if this 90% holds up, we, we don't need as many people because that was assuming 60% efficacy. That's going to bring down all those problems. with trust and hesitancy and anti-vaccers. I mean, those are still issues, but they're not going to be as big an issue if this efficacy holds up. Can you explain why that is just for people, just for

layman? Right. So the virus needs to find people to survive, to thrive. And the more people that are getting protection, the less chance it can find hosts to accommodate it. And so what we're going to see, assuming this 90% holds up, and the vaccine distribution goes as planned, which is really, that's the good part. It's been very well planned by the military, this operation warp speed. The day the EUA hits, it goes all over the country, it's shipped, and every dose is tracked. So assuming we get high-level uptake people, and again, we don't need as high as initially forecasted. We could see the virus having a hard time finding people to infect by mid-year. That's what population immunity means. The more difficult it is. I mean, this virus will probably

be endemic. It'll be here for years, but it's just going to have harder times to find people to infect. Yes, exactly. You know, that's why this is, this has a more, very astute, Molly, as usual, has more of a measles look than it does of a flu vaccine look. Thank God. Right? Yeah. Flu vaccines are notoriously, you know, weak. This one looks potent. And it also means all of them will likely follow suit. Is that because the flu mutates so much? That's one big part of it, yes. The flu is a very rapidly evolving virus, and the only good thing about this virus,

there's so few good things, is that this one is like damn slow, and it hasn't changed really any significance throughout the entire pandemic. So that is really important in terms of the vaccine efficacy. But it's also the way targeting the spike protein turns out, You know, it's really an easy target. The flu vaccine just isn't as easy a target.

This was kind of ideal. This one had a flashing sign. You can vaccinate against me. You will prevail. I think that's what we're getting to here. Yeah. Do you think, can you talk, there's been a lot of internet discussion this morning about whether or not

Pfizer was part of Operation Warp Speed. And the answer seems to be yes and no. Yes. it wasn't part of Operation Warf Speed, which gave it kind of free reign to do as it pleased in this part, the clinical trial, you know, setting its endpoint, setting its interim analyses. You know, basically they weren't taking funding to be part of this Operation Warf Speed and they want to roll on their own. They were the only large trial in the U.S. rolling on their own. But in terms of distribution, they are part of Operation Warf Speed.

So the day that emergency authorization goes forward, the OWS is responsible for getting the vaccine out. So they're kind of in and out, but up to this point, they're not part of the government warspeed program. But they did benefit from some of the public-private partnership stuff, right? Oh, absolutely. And there's been lots of cross-talk with that group. So, no, there was no question. They just didn't, they were the kind of running solo, which gave them more. you know, kind of freedom to operate.

All the other trials have a single data and safety monitoring committee. They have more kind of alignment and how they're proceeding. Pfizer really was rolling on their own. Right. That's so interesting. Eric, so one of the most disturbing things I've been seeing on social media this morning is people are saying,

oh, wow, it's so effective. So I won't have to get it. Moron. Yeah, the virus will find you. That's what's going to happen, folks. You know, people will want to get this vaccine. You know, when you have the trust, when you have, you know, we'll get all the data, which we'll have in the weeks ahead, it'll be all transparent.

You know, all the people you can trust will, you know, weigh in. And we'll have new leadership that you can trust, a coronavirus task force who you can trust. We'll start to turn around that hesitancy, that, you know, reluctance the antibodies to a vaccine, I hope. But the good part, though, I think it's essential, is we, we, we, won't have to get nearly as high of the population vaccinated. But those who don't, those who, you know, stay in the, I'm not going to have this thing, they will be at risk. And that's not good because there's going to be this vaccine. The virus will still be out there. It just won't be as easy to spread. You've seen some of the Biden administration's new COVID task force. First of all, what do you think of the

task force? And second of all, what do you think they should be doing now? Well, I know of the 13, I know, six of them really well. They're excellent. I think they have, and their plans, you know, all the right things are in there. You know, obviously we got to get this testing right. We got to get home rapid testing right. ASAP, we've got to get a digital dashboard, a real time to track everything that's going on in this country. You know, there's so many things that we have, we should have done, you know, back in March, right? We're going to get those done. The plans are good. Obviously, the challenges are more than formidable with 120,000 per day of new infection. So, you know, I think the task force was essential.

We haven't had one. Basically, we're flying blind. Yeah. I mean, it's just incredible. So this is what we needed. We have some very qualified people in that group. I have talked to Vivek Murphy. You know, I've consulted with him.

He's one of the chairs. I think I'm very impressed with them and they have the right ideas going forward. One thing to add, I think this is important for your. listeners, masks, they're going to be really important in 2021. Tell us why. You don't realize that. There's two real reasons why masks are going to be essential. I wish they wouldn't be, but it's the case that they will be.

First of all, the vaccines, when we talk about 90% efficacy, that's of getting pneumonia or getting your body infected with illness. It doesn't sterilize the upper respiratory tract, that is, the nose. And so you could be a carrier of the virus. Right. And so we're going to have to wear a mask because you won't know if the virus is sitting in your nasal mucosa. The second thing is you may not form the neutralizing antibodies at the really high level. That is, you may not be protected.

Most people will, of course. But so because we don't know these things, until we get this virus almost squashed, we got to wear masks. And I think a lot of people don't realize that. So the good news is we've got a really potent vaccine, likely. The other news is keep those masks. By the way, that task force, they should be organizing to get surgical mass to every household in the United States, a large supply. That's what they should be doing right now. That's not on their list, but that's what they should be doing.

They're better than cloth masks. They're cheap. And we should have a gazillion of them out there for the public. So good. Thank you so much, Eric. Oh, yeah. Great to talk to you, folks. Before we get into things, we have a fun little treat.

There are so many insane things happening in the world right now, and two episodes a week just aren't enough to cover it all. So, the new Abnormal is going to release a limited run series of bonus interviews over the next few weeks for Beast Inside members only. We'll release a new one each Sunday. But listen carefully. Only Beast Inside members will have access to these. So head over to the new abnormal.

Dot the Daily Beast.com to become a Beast inside member now. That's new abnormal.the daily beast.com. Mary Trump is the author of Too Much and Never Enough, as well as having the unfortunate distinction of being the lame duck president Donald J. Trump's niece. I'm so excited to have you back. It's so good to be back. It seems like it's been several decades. It's been a long time.

So, first of all, what is going on? What do you think is happening right now? Basically what I anticipate. with the caveat that I never ceased to underestimate the craveness of the Republican leadership. But, you know, that's because I don't know what Dirk Donald has on them.

So, you know, Donald is being completely true to form. It's unacceptable. It's impossible from to wrap his head around. He's surrounded by a bunch of cowards and yes men who will not do what's required. And honestly, even at this point, even if somebody like Jared or Ivanka, I guess that would be the end of the very short list.

I don't even think he would listen to anybody right now because he's too consumed with rage and terror, which is basically, you know, the bookends that have to find his entire life. What do you think happens now? Well, it's interesting. Well, I think the moral logic is really a better word. I saw yesterday that somebody claimed, anyway, that he's willing to concede,

certain conditions? What does that even, like what conditions? Free ice cream forever? Ice cream Big Mac? What does that mean? What stage of the reckoning is bargaining? Yeah, he's,

I think he's going to be in denial for the rest of his life, but he cannot stay there. So, you know, we've been assured by people in the position to know that he's not going to be allowed to stay there. So the question, is then, will the people around who figure out a way to make the idea of leaving,

if not attractive, at least a better alternative than staying? Because he certainly doesn't realize, and what they may not, and in this I include Republican leadership, is that every second he continues to stay there with these stupid tweets that keep getting flagged and removed and firing people via a tweet, like Esper, and either strong-arming or I'm not sure what he's doing with the people like the woman at the GSA who's refusing to write the letter to allow the transition to begin. Every minute he's doing that, he's humiliating himself. He's revealing himself to be the total infantile loser he is in sharp contrast to an actual

president who's actually starting to work with the police and do the work even though we doesn't have the job yet, President Biden. And how Republicans have to get to, well, they don't have to, but they should get to the point where they realize that every second they allow this to happen, and they are the ones allowing this to happen, as you know. Right. They increase our chances in Georgia. Right. It's true. Is there no one around him who can, like, speak to him gingerly? And, I mean, you've seen over the last two days Rupert Murdoch try to do it. I mean, is there no one in his world? First of all, no.

For different reasons. I think Rupert Murdoch Biden, you know, Fox News has, at least in Donald's view, been going rogue a little bit between the Chris Wallace performance at the debate, which was objectively terrible, but Donald thought it was terrible for completely delicious reasons to the fact that Fox News called Arizona before everybody else is. And then Fox News actually called the whole lecture based on verifiable data. So, Louver Murdoch has delegitimize himself in Donald's eyes. And then the people who could, like Jared and Ivanka, won't because, one, they're cowards.

You know, I read in the New York Times, Jared tasked these close advisors to go speak to him, but declined to accompany. It's pretty amazing. So it's like, you know, it was sort of, you know, he'll, he'll be. he'll consider it the next round. Like, what is it this joke? Like, the dog's on the roof. You know, mom's on the roof. This is not something that is allowed to happen in phases.

You can see it or you don't. Right. You'll allow the transition or you don't, and it needs to happen now because as lovely as it is that it's increasing our chances in Georgia, it's also undermining our democracy. So this is a bad thing. So I think the other thing that we cannot discount is how cycle. psychologically invested at a very deep unconscious level, Donald is in never acknowledging this law. Right.

I don't want to say impossible, but it is psychologically devastating for him. And he's a weak person who has no meaningful support system. And the people in his inner circle, as I mentioned, not only they're cowards, they also have a lot of stay here. So getting on his bad side at a crucial time, and they're a very far. of you won't work out well for them because it's all transactional. Which is true, certainly. Mary, I think the interesting thing that I've been trying to grapple with this is that we're

all talking about how he's not going to be able to accept failure yet. He's had so much failure in his life. Do you have any insight on how that psychologically plays out? Yeah, I mean, it's a great question because you're absolutely right. You know, it's amazing that on the one hand, losing is the thing that is the worst thing to do. but he's never won anything. Right. Ever.

Yeah. This is the difference, though. He's never won anything legitimately, and legitimacy means nothing to him, because his ego is such that if he gets the win, just by virtue of, you know, cheating lying stealing, he knows he deserves to win. Right.

So it's okay for him to cheat lion's deal. And he's always had somebody else, either looking the other way, or enabling him, you know, there's always been my grandfather to bail on that with money and political connections. The banks have done the same thing. The media have done the same thing by, you know, ignoring the real story in order to focus on... The Trump story. Yeah, you know, the slimy details, the salacious stuff. Mark Burnett did that for him, the Republican Party did that for him as soon as he got the nomination. And he has literally

never been in a position like this before in his life where there are absolutely no options. There is no way for him to get out of this one. He's trapped and it cannot be undone. It cannot be rebranded. It's a loss. It's an enormous loss. And not only this, and this is something else that we need to keep in mind because it is fueling his rage and his unwillingness to accept the loss even further, he lost.

The Republican Party did not. not with. In fact, they actually did well. Yeah, I mean, certainly better than expected. So nobody can say, even him, that it's the, that he would have won if it hadn't been for the Republican Party dragging him down. I mean, he'll try to say that because clearly he doesn't understand how co-tells work. Even if that were the case, you can't say that because they picked up houses, they picked up seats and out, and they should have gotten trans in the Senate, and there's a possibility they might keep the Senate, which again, it's just a sad, sad testament

to where America is this country, but it's all on him. So, you know, I saw a Venn diagram earlier. It's president, one term presidents, impeach presidents, and presidents who lost the popular vote. He's the only one in the middle of that circle of the three overlapping circles.

It's just hit. You know, he's lost the popular vote twice, more this time than the last time, and he's never been, as I've been saying, ever been, legitimate. So you are someone who really understands the psychology of this situation. How worried should we be about him firing Esper? Like, is he firing Esper because he's going to war with North Korea or is he? I mean, he wouldn't go to war with North Korea because he loves them, but because he's going to bomb Canada or is he doing it just because he's mad at people?

Well, you know, Chudeau is better-looking. That's all the reason he is. Yeah. So, I guess you're right. That's irrelevant. Right. Yeah, of course we should be worried. We should be worried because, one, it's just another way in which he's eroding our norms.

Right. Now, the question then becomes, though, is this an intellectual abuse of power? Like, is he just flexing to try to convince people that he still, he's still, still strong and he still has power? Or is he planning something? I think at the moment, he's, he's emotionally incapable of having any kind of strategy. I mean, not that he's usually capable of strategizing. But, you know, I think it's just all lashing out more than anything else. Because the other, the other question is, like, what purpose does this serve? We might see Ray get fired. We might see pastful get fired. But for what? I mean, who is he going to replace in, what are we down to

72 days. Right. So, by the way, this needs to change. It's, you know, the elections on number of her third. The new president gets sworn in on November 4th. Give me a break. We should be worried, and either way, I'm, in terms of the damage he can do, though, I'm more worried about the kinds of pardons he's going to start issuing. I'm more worried about the possibility of signing more executive orders, although, I mean,

that would be a fortune thing. It would be demoralizing. Right. But much more I'm worried about the extent to which he throws a spanner, one of my British? What the hell is spanner? You're my favorite person. A spanner is a gears. But seriously, with the 70 million people who need a lot of therapy, you know, the extent to which he can, he has the power to legitimize the incoming

administration, that's the thing that most worries me. Yeah. But so you don't think he's going to war with Canada? I mean, that's the country I'd pick, but... Right, but I feel, and you know, so I'm curious to know your hot take on this, I feel like he's actually quite weak and he won't do something scary. So weak. Okay, good. All right. But honestly, even if he were considering it, I wouldn't bet on this with my life, certainly.

But at that point, I don't think the Republicans have a choice but to step in because it would be so obvious and craven. Right. It doesn't change the outcome of the election. What does it do then? Right? You know, so I think even they at that point would have to admit that it's over and they've got to, they have got to stop the bleeding. Right. That's interesting.

Mary, where were you when you found out the news? I was here in Kit God. I can't remember. What was I doing? I think I was working. And I was toggling between MSNBC and CNN. And it was just, just me. And Sebastian, Sebastian was very happy when here are the news.

And it was a weird feeling because, like, we've all been waiting so long. And it, you know, so there wasn't this moment of euphoria. It was just like, oh, okay. So it took a while to sink in, I think. And then, you know, I keep banging up against the 70 million. And that's keeping me from being, you know, unreservedly happy. Right. Well, it's also, I feel like it's very scary.

It is. You know, what still could happen. That's why the Republicans can never be allowed to recover from this. What they're doing now, I mean, forget about what they've done in the last four years, which is horrific enough. But what they're doing now is unforgivable because what's the point? Are you going to change your last name? I actually, I'm hoping that they're going to have to change their last night. Yes. Amazing.

But I'm pretty sure I am going to have to. Yeah. Wow. I think people know who you are and what you've done. Yeah. It just might make my life easier. I don't know. It totally depends on how it plays out. So interesting. I mean, if he had stolen another election, I absolutely would have had to change my lesson. Who do you think runs in 20? Trump or Eric or Junior or Ivanka or do they all run? I want I want all of them to run. I think the whole Donald 2024 thing is just a way to assuage his wounded ego.

Yeah, definitely. Granted, Joe Biden is 78. Donald will be 78. However, he's like the least healthy person on the planet between his diet, his failure to exercise ever. and his untreated mental illnesses. I mean, there's absolutely no way. Like, somebody said to me, is like, will he even, you know,

will he be psychologically competent in four years? I'm like, he isn't now. So, you know, and this will just be the coup de grace, you know, he doesn't recover from this ever. And I think if the states, particularly in New York State, do their jobs.

And let's just stick with New York, because I think that's our best bet. If Leticia James, in whom I have, much more faith than I do inside this, do their jobs, and I'm pretty sure that they want to. Can you run a presidential campaign from Rikers Island? Maybe. But if, you know, we were fortunate enough to have this happen, I think it would be Donnie. Yeah, Donnie. He's the dumbest. He's my favorite.

The dumbest and the bassier. Leon Nafok is the co-creator of the amazing podcast Slow Burn and the host of Fiasco, a podcast, on the 2000 election recount. Tell us a little bit about this podcast that you have, this new one. Yeah, happy to. So Fiasco is a podcast. It's an anthology series, I guess you could say, where each season is about a different, or major historical event from American politics that we revisit by, you know, going back and interviewing everyone that we can find who was there and saw I come up close and find archival footage from news coverage. that was aired at the time and just try to basically retell the story

in a way that makes the listener feel like they know what it was like to live through in real time before anyone had the benefit of hindsight. And so with this season, Bush v. Gore, we took on the 2000 election and the recount in Florida that took place over the next, over 36 days that followed Election Day in 2000.

So Trump World is really pretty hot on the idea that this is 2000. Normal people who can process reality don't agree with that. Tell me what your take on this is. I don't think it's 2000. And I'm actually been kind of surprised not to hear more like over comparisons to 2000 from the Trump people because you would think like they would want this to look as much like 2000 as possible. Just because like whatever you think about the final outcome, the Supreme Court decision, everyone was sort of on the same page

that like there were some issues to figure out. I think right now there are the consensus among reasonable people who are not trying to be president is there are no things to figure out. Obviously, he's trying to convince everyone that there are, that there are issues with the vote count or which votes are counted, which ones were not supposed to be counted. You know, there's an attempt, obviously, a group effort by Trump and his allies

to kind of create the impression of ambiguity or lurking problems that we need to put under a microscope. And that was actually true in 2000. I mean, there were a number of issues all over the state that needed to be worked through. The most famous example is the butterfly ballot in which a ballot design decision in Palm Beach County

resulted in ballots that misled or confused voters who wanted to vote for Al Gore but accidentally ended up voting for Pat Buchanan, just based on how the battle was designed. I look back at, you know, as we worked through this kind of tangle of storylines that came up after

the, you know, after election day, you just find that there were so many little arenas in which this fight was being wage, right? So you had like the butterfly ballot on one hand. It ended up actually not being legally significant because there was just no way out and do it. But there were other issues in other counties where, you know, ballots that used a punch hole had resulted in people not punching their hole in all the way through. And so you had hanging chads and pregnant chads and dimpled chads. I don't know if those terms ring a bell. And then separately from that, you had,

you know, a controversy over military ballots or overseas absentee ballots. Both campaigns were sort of trying to find these like small, I guess, like, fight. to pick, maybe you could say. Like, everyone wanted an excuse to get an edge over the other side. And so, and obviously the Gore team was especially incentivized to find issues because they were behind. And the reason, like, any old little storyline, like, you know, little Palm Beach what mattered so much was that the margin was just so tiny that anything that you could

change about the vote count could end up being decisive. Wow. But that's not what's happening here. What's happening here is they would have overturned numerous states. Yeah, margins that are like way big. than what you saw in Florida. I mean, recounts don't generally move the vote count all that much. I don't know what the average is, you know, and how that's even calculated. But I was sort of surprised to learn that like the first thing the Gore team did when when it was clear this was going into

overtime was, you know, bring in a guy who specialized in recounts. Like he was a Democratic consultant who, you know, had written literally a book about how recounts work and how you should approach them when you're on whichever end you're on, right, whether you're losing or whether you're winning the strategies are different. There are specialists on this because this is a thing that happens fairly frequently. I just don't think there's any, you know, there's not really a precedent for the kinds of margins we're seeing in these states, like Pennsylvania, for example, where a recount would really be expected to make a dent. So I don't know. I just feel like Trump and his legal team, such as it is, are like looking back to 2000 and thinking, oh, well, you know,

they succeeded at kind of dragging things out and, you know, so in doubt just by like following a bunch of lawsuits, we can just do that too. And, you know, I do think people have like taken it more serious than they might have if we hadn't seen what happened in 2000 play out. Right. You know, there is some sort of in a very general sense, a precedent for this. But I just think as soon as you drill down to the particulars of what they're alleging and the kind of numbers they're trying to overcome, it's just like, doesn't have that much in common. One of my favorite podcasts ever is Slow Burn.

Thank you. You're welcome. It's amazing. And it's all about for the few people who haven't heard it, I'm sure everyone has. It's all about Watergate. And you were doing this right at the same time as the impeachment. So I'm curious to know, were you? you, I mean, were you shocked that it didn't have a Watergate-like outcome or no?

Do you mean the Mueller investigation and all that? Yes. No, I really wasn't because it was really clear, even as we were making that season, that, you know, that Trump's support among his fellow Republicans was just like somehow seemingly, what you call it, like immune to laws of gravity. Like whatever laws of gravity were revealed, you know, through the Watergate story, it was just obvious that like something was different about how people were making their calculations. about whether it was worth it to stay by its side.

Something was different because, you know, and you can see this from like even putting aside his fellow politicians, like his approval ratings among Republicans, or maybe it's just like his, yeah, his approval ratings among Republicans are just like totally stable across the four years. Like nothing seems to make a difference. You know, the kinds of scandals that would have obviously taken down people

in the past just didn't seem to stick to him. I'm saying, you know, things everyone knows at this point. But like, yeah, I would say it was clear to me kind of retrace the kind of course that Watergate took that a lot of things had to go a certain way for that outcome to come about. We sort of think of it now in retrospect of inevitable, but I think there were so many forks in the road

in Watergate us. Hopefully, you know, we kind of illustrated where someone decided, made a decision, right? Yeah, or someone or some kind of dea-sax machina situation with the tapes came in and kind of just changed the course of the entire story. It just seemed clear to me at the end of that season that like we got pretty lucky as a country in terms of the story of Watergate reaching that conclusion.

And so it didn't seem like, oh, well, you know, it ended that way. And Watergate that means to like this way Trump. And of course, didn't. That's so interesting. Do you think that conservatives, and I may get in trouble for a, are stupid or now? Or do they have just less of a commitment to democracy and the rule of law? I don't know. I would be hesitant to say anything as broad as all that, but I guess I suspect that has more to

do with media consumption and changes in how people's loyalties form and dissolve. Like, I don't know, I guess when I look at the people who have stood by Trump, including like Marco Rubio, you know, you would think, or like Mitt Romney even, frankly, who like is not like a Trump supporter, but like has not taken. Should know better. Even when he came back like on his white horse into the Senate, like, he still didn't distinguish himself by being. the kind of aggressive anti-Trump

public that you might have expected them to be. And I just like, I don't know. I'm not smart enough, I think, myself to know what is, what calculus these guys are making. The X factor. Yeah, I just don't get it. I don't know. I have to assume that these people go to home at night

and know that they've been, you know, they've been silent in the face of, like, outrageous misconduct and they have, in many cases, defended falsehoods. And I don't know how they explain that to themselves. That's like something we try to do in the podcast with Chiasco now is like figure out how people, will convince themselves of their own virtue or their own, you know, righteousness. Like, it's just, it's an amazing power of self-delusion that people used to protect themselves.

I don't know. Who were the worst actors so that I can shame them in the 2000 recount? Well, I think, like, the best example of sort of a brazen, like, active hypocrisy that was, like, clearly undertaken because, like, nothing mattered but winning. was when the Republicans were trying to get a looser counting standard applied to overseas absentee ballots, which were understood to favor Bush because they were often coming from military bases. The Bush team found out that the Gore lawyers were going around the local election boards and telling them, like, look, you know, if you get overseas absentee ballots without a postmark or the postmark that's after the election or without a signature, like you can't count those.

And that's an example of like the Gore people being arguably like, you know, the kind of ruthless that people often want them to be where they say, yeah, like we're going to take this advantage however we can if we can discount certain ballots that we think are likely to go for Bush, we will. But the Republicans still outmaneuvered them despite like despite the Democrats seemingly being aggressive in that way that usually aren't. The Republicans still out maneuvered them by branding these ballots as military ballots, you know, all over TV like all over Fox News they were talking about. military ballots and how Gore wanted to disenfranchise are men and women in uniform because he was unwilling to take this looser standard, or excuse me, because he was unwilling to, you know, encourage local officials to apply looser standards to military ballots. Meanwhile, like the same Republicans were arguing in Miami-Dade, in Broward County, in Palm Beach that, like, if a ballot had an error on it of some kind or someone, you know, didn't sign their name, or if they didn't push through the punchhole far enough all the way in, you know, like, sorry, rules are rules. You can't count it. And so they were simultaneously advocating for a looser

standard would have benefited them. Stricter standard would have benefited the other side. And so it's just like they just didn't care. They just didn't care about looking like hypocrites and they just wanted to win. I think there's a lesson in that. Yeah. No. And I mean, I wish Democrats would act like that more. But it's so interesting. Since you've covered Watergate so heavily and do you have a feeling on if Joe Biden's going to be president number 46 or 47? Wait a second. Jesse is convinced that Trump will, like, go to Mar-Lauggo and... I'm convinced Pence is going to pardon him.

Wait, like he'll resign. He's going to resign and let Pence pardon him. That's interesting. And so Pence will become president and then pardon Trump. Yeah, for January 20th. That's a really clever idea. I hope they don't hear it. It's Jesse's shopping it for Trump.

Put it out there. Like, give it to Gateway Pundit. They'll say, like, you know. before saying that. Just watch it, watch it zoom to the Twitter feed. Well, now that I think you've said that, it seems like obviously what's going to happen. I will cop to being

relaxed today with regard to what's going to happen. It feels as though everyone has just decided to ignore Trump and decide it doesn't matter if he is going to concede, but I don't know. I mean, I will be honest and say, I don't think I'll be able to really exhale until, I think we all need Trump's permission to, like, believe it.

I don't know. Like, do you remember, like, before, the election, before election day, like, people would on Twitter be grabbing on to any instance of Trump like talking about his presidency, like in the past tense or like saying something that betrayed his, you know, parent, like that he was capable of imagining himself losing. Like, I felt like so important that like Trump was willing to concede that he might lose. I feel like in the same way we all like are waiting for his permission to really believe it, that you will insist on staying in the White House. But it seems more and more like deep being ground out. So yeah, that is kind of exciting.

Rick Wilson. Yeah. Welcome to our one segment. The one segment required by state, federal law, and international treaty. Who is your fuck-that-guy? I don't even know. My fuck-that-guy is Bill Barr, the king of fuckery who just walked into Mitch McConnell's office and who is going to do something beyond the fucking pale.

We'll know next episode what it is he does, but he is my fuck-that-guy because we know wherever criminality goes, Bill Barr is there. And he is my fuck-that-guy for his work, criming on behalf of the- Of the crime enterprise that is the crime. Yes. My fuck-that-guy today is on a day that should be a day of, frankly, joy and celebration in this country,

not only because Donald Trump has lost the election and will forever be a one-term loser president who was impeached and humiliated. But it is his vice president today who receives the coveted fuck-that guy, Michael Pinas. Yes, Michael Pinas, as he's known. As Borat says, because he came out and immediately claimed credit for the Pfizer vaccine. Yes.

The Pfizer vaccine that was created not in Operation Warp Speed. The Pfizer vaccine was not developed under Operation Warp Speed. Though they did benefit in some ways from it. But yes, it's true. Well, look, they later signed a separate deal if the vaccine worked. But it was not Mike Pence's doing. It was not Donald Trump's doing. And it was certainly not Ivanka's doing.

No, it was a bunch of incredibly dedicated researchers and scientists who buckled down and put the pedal to the metal to develop a successful vaccine. But it's so on brand for these scales to try to claim credit for it. Donald Trump is going to try to brand it and call it the Trump vaccine, I promise you. And Pence doing that was so on brand. You know, don't make any mistake that Mike Pence isn't completely a part of this. scuzzy underworld of Trumpism. On that note, we'll wrap up this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast. In future episodes, we'll be talking with smart folks from The Daily Beast and beyond

from media, culture, politics, and science who will help us understand what's happening to our country and the world. We hope you'll subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app and share the show on social media. We're just getting started and don't want you to miss an episode. If you'd like to follow us on Twitter, I'm Molly JongFest, and he's the Rick Will. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you again on the next episode. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh,

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