The Daily Beast Podcast - Just Imagine What It’s Like to Be Anywhere Near Trump Right Now

Episode Date: July 15, 2022

It's been a big week in politics with revelations galore from the Jan. 6 House committee. Former President Donald Trump's attempts at stopping the peaceful transfer of power has been the talk of the town and this week's admissions at the committee are a "pretty big deal", notes Molly Jong-Fast on this episode of The New Abnormal podcast. But it's not all bad news. Speaking with Jong-Fast, former presidential candidate and independent candidate for the Utah Senate, Evan McMullin, reveals that he is seeing "a weakening in Trump support across the country". Then, Mary Trump, host of the Mary Trump show and the author of Too Much and Never Enough, revealed she found the revelations surrounding the "vast web of people" covering for her Uncle...."at times difficult to process". Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Molly Zhang Fast, no relationship to Kim Jong-un. I'm a left-wing pundant and a writer at the Atlantic Invo. And I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart, conversations with the wisest and funniest and funniest people in science and media and politics that help make what's happening today clearer. Our world has been turned upside down, and on the new abnormal, we'll talk about the people who got us into this mess and how we'll hopefully get ourselves out of it. Oh, yeah, we got a packed show today. That's right. First, we're going to talk to Evan McMullen, who of course is a former presidential candidate, but most notably today is a candidate for the U.S. Senate in Utah. And he's going to talk to us about his race out there.

Then we're going to have the one, the only Mary Trump on, who you of course know from the Mary Trump show, as well as her bestselling book Too Much and Never Enough. And she's going to talk to us about what she's been seeing in the January 6th committee. But first, let's have some fun. Andy Levy. Molly Jongfest. I think we're all still kind of recovering from Tuesday's January 6th hearing. Yeah, episode 7 of season one was pretty good. We got some really interesting stuff out of it.

Basically, kind of what we all suspected, that everything that happened on January 6th was planned in advance by the president. Yeah. It's amazing how effective these hearings. have been. I'm really shocked at how they've certainly captured our conversation and reminded us of what happened, which was actually like, I mean, look, stopping the peaceful transfer of power is a pretty big fucking deal, but it was 18 months ago. And it's sort of that, I feel like it sort of brought exactly what happened on January 6th back into the forefront. Yeah, absolutely. And, and just made it abundantly clear that the whole thing, the rally and then the march on the Capitol,

were exactly what Trump and people like Stephen Miller, et cetera, wanted and what they had planned on. And that it wasn't any kind of, you know, spontaneous sort of uprising by the people, by the citizens of the United States, that no, this was, this entire thing was scripted and planned in advance. and they got exactly what they wanted, which was the people storming the Capitol building. And they can say whatever they want about, you know, whatever the story is at any given moment where whether it's that, oh, it was actually Antifa or, oh, it was just a bunch of people on vacation, or there was never any danger, or whatever. The bottom line is we know, as we've known all along, that every single one of those sort of alternate stories is a lie. What happened was exactly what they wanted to happen.

It was a bunch of out-of-control Trump supporters marching over to the Capitol and, you know, literally putting people's lives in danger. And all of that was scripted in advance by the president and his administration. And there's just no doubt of that. And, you know, if there was ever any doubt that maybe this was spontaneous, that's gone now. That's completely gone. Yeah. I think it's super interesting that they've been able to sort of tie some of these. And we haven't seen it yet, but they implied that they're able to tie Roger Stone and Mike Flynn to the proud boys.

I mean, I think we've certainly seen, you know, pictures of them. And there's clearly a relationship there. But obviously, the committee has, like, solid eyes. And I think that's really relevant and important. Absolutely. All of that. And Steve Bannon, this was not in the committee, but the audio that was uncovered of him basically laying out what the plan was, which was to contest the election and claim you won even if you hadn't, just to muddy the waters and make everything happen the way that it happened. It is 100% obvious that everything that happened was according to their plan. And I hope Merrick Garland wasn't too busy or had other plans while that hearing was going on, because I really hope he saw that. that and takes all that into account when he decides to maybe possibly sort of in a way do something at some point in the undetermined future. Well, they're making recommendations to him, right?

Now they're connected with him. I mean, again, look, Merrick Garland is obviously not the man for this job, but hopefully he will still, he will hopefully still do what is needed. Yeah, that would be nice. And I realized something sort of in the last few days that, you know, there's all this talk that, well, it might not be good for the country to criminally charge a former president and it could be bad to have a trial. Well, we have a mechanism for dealing with stuff like that. It's called Guantanamo Bay. That's where we put people who we don't want to put on trial because it might be too dangerous to have them testify in open court and have public hearings. We put them in Guantanamo. Bay. It's just sitting there. So if you need another option, Mr. Garland, there you go. I'm helping you out here. Again, there's reporting today that he plans on running and he's going to announce before the midterms. If you don't prosecute him for the crimes, we all know he did, he's going to run again and next time you're not going to be able to get rid of him. And I think that it's so clear that, you know, how much more proof do you need

They're intimidating witnesses. Like, you don't call up witnesses and say, like, you're not going to talk. You know, we know he's called a support staff. You don't do that if you're not guilty. Like, that's the kind of thing guilty people do. That's the kind of thing guilty people in the mafia do. But it's the kind of thing guilty people do. Well, yeah, but that is exactly what the people in the mafia do.

And this is what we're talking about here. We're talking about, you know, the Trump crime family or call it what you want. That's the exact correct analogy, I think, is this is basically, this was literal mob rule. For all intents and purposes, they are a mob family. They do everything to enrich themselves. I mean, look, you could even argue that, you know, the mafia took care of sort of the neighborhood and their people. And actually, you know, I'm not, obviously not defending the mafia. But in Trump's, in their case, it is nothing but straight up selfishness and me, me, me, and us, us.

us and not giving a shit about anybody else who's not part of the family. Just watching the hearing after the last one with Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony, which just was riveting from the first minute, I thought this one got off to a slower start and I was a little nervous, but then it was obvious what they were doing. They were, you know, they were connecting the dots and putting the web together and with the oathkeepers and the proud boys. As you said, you know, sort of tying that directly to Trump advisors like Roger Stone. and they did a really, really good job by the end of just showing exactly who these people are.

It just continues to be kind of gobsmacking. And even though we know what happened, it still continues to be gobsmacking, if that makes any sense. No, it does. And a lot of it is there's stuff that we know, like in our hearts, but we didn't know, no. They are laying out the parts that we now know the stuff that we all suspected. and they were all like, well, clearly, this is what they wanted and this is what Trump did. But maybe we just assumed that based on his whole life, basically. But what they're doing is giving you the actual evidence that what you know in your heart is actually true.

But it is weird how even knowing in your heart that, yeah, we know this is what happened. We know this is what Trump wanted. We know that he told his people to go to the Capitol and that they loved the fact, you know, he loved the fact that they were storming the building. We knew all of that. But then when you see the actual evidence, you're still like, holy shit, this is exactly what he planned. It really is. And so you're right.

It's like you're still sort of gobsmacked by it, even though you knew that that was the case before you watch the hearing. But that's how they've done such a good job of laying out the evidence and, you know, between the witness interviews and the texts and the emails. and you had those texts between Brad Parscal and Katrina Pearson, where Brad is basically admitting that they got people killed. And she is like, you know, no, we didn't. And he's like, Christina, please, yes, we did. And then, of course, two weeks later, he's taking money from Trump for PACs and stuff like that because these people, if they ever have a conscience, it has a, you know, it has a very quick expiration date. But you saw that one sort of moment of actual self-awareness that, oh, my God. God, I'm a bad person. Like I said, a day or two later, they shrug it off. But you saw that.

It was amazing to actually see it, even though, like, you know these are bad people. We've been given evidence time after time after time that these are bad people. But then you actually see that at least for a minute, they have that little flicker of self-recognition. And it's like, wow, that's really powerful. Again, then they go right back to being bad people, but it's still something to see. I was shocked that Brad Purskow had a much. moment of conscience. I mean, just shocked. It was like absolutely everything I've ever seen. I mean, I think of like the photos of him being arrested, shirtless, the police were called by his wife. Again, there were never charges filed, I don't think, but certainly a lot of people can go through

their whole lives without ever having that experience. In fact, most people I know, I don't think of him as a moral warrior. So the fact that he had that moment is pretty interesting. So one of the things that happened, one of the like two other things that happened this week is that Biden talked about a 10-year-old girl who had gotten pregnant and who needed an abortion. The story had originally been in a local Ohio newspaper. The source was the little girl's doctor.

It only had one source. The doctor refused to give more details about the 10-year-old girl. Biden used the story in his speech. Fox World went crazy. Republican AG said that he hadn't heard a whisper of it. Went on Fox that he thought that Biden was lying. A number of conservative media columnists also accused Biden of lying, including people who are not even known for that, who are more never-trumpy.

You know, there are some of those people you pretty much expect them. You know, like the Wall Street Journal editorial page wrote a opinion piece with a headline, and I want to make sure I get this right because it's absolutely the most disgusting thing I have ever seen. the headline was an abortion story too good to confirm. Biden told a tale of a 10-year-old rape victim that no one can identify. Well, the very next day, this story was written on July 12th, July 13th. We saw, in fact, that she was identified, that they went, they have found her attacker. He is in jail.

I don't know if she was identified because she's a 10-year-old girl, so hopefully she wasn't. But the attacker was identified almost without a beat. The people of Trump world, they went from, we believe no women, to he's an illegal alien and we must get him out. And this is what illegal aliens do. I mean, immediately. Yeah, I'm still recovering from the whiplash. I mean, this was really something. And look, I have absolutely no problem with journalists trying to confirm stories.

and, you know, looking for more evidence of stories, I think that's fine. That's what journalists do. That was not what was going on here. This was a bunch of people, as you said, it was the Fox. It was the Jesse Waters of the world. It was the Ben Shapiro's of the world. It was the, you know, the usual suspects. But it was also the fact checker at the Washington Post.

It was also Glenn Kessler, I guess, yeah, who wrote, he wrote. wrote a horrible piece. It was an absolutely horrible piece, and he did not, he failed at his job in that piece for a number of reasons. But that was sort of the exception to the rule on this, you know, it was mostly the people who didn't want this story to be true, which, you know, it would have been nice if they didn't want the story to be true because they didn't want a little 10-year-old girl to have been raped and gotten pregnant. Yeah, that's not why. They could not give a shit about that. Yeah. They wanted it to not be true because it puts a lie to everything they've been saying about the post row world, which is soft peddling and downplaying exactly what they got from this decision, which is cases like this where a 10-year-old girl who was raped and got pregnant had to go to another state to get an abortion.

And now the big thing is the Ohio AG and others are saying, well, no, she could have gotten the U.S. abortion in Ohio because there's an exception when the mother's life is in danger. What you're depending on there is doctors who are willing to face what would probably be a legal case brought by this Ohio AG, more than likely, despite what he says. And they would have to prove in court that this 10-year-old girl's life was in danger, which is, of course, fucking ridiculous that that even has to be a consideration. So as I tweeted the other night and somehow lost a lot of followers, I think. These people can't fuck off hard enough. Like, they really can't. I can't say the way I actually

feel about these people. Let me just put it that way. They're straight up evil. These are evil people. That's not a word that I throw around lightly outside of horror movies. And if you are making it so that a 10-year-old girl who was raped, who was, who was assaulted, has to go to another state to have an abortion instead of becoming a mom at the age of 10, you are an evil person. And there's just no way around that. There's no mitigating circumstances there. There's no, well, you meant well, you didn't mean well. You meant bad.

All these people just, again, I can't say what I'm actually thinking because it might be actionable. Yeah. I mean, I also think like some of the argument they made was, this is Glenn Kessler, an abortion by a 10-year-old is pretty rare. Again, there's no like a link to what the numbers are. The Columbus Dispatch reported in 2020, 52 people under the age of 15 received an abortion in Ohio. Definitions of rare may vary, but if 52, you know, that exists.

I mean, it just was interesting that they just jumped all over this. It was like you really do see how much. This abortion issue, on the right, they desperately want us to think that there are these sex-crazed women who are abhorting fetuses, you know, at 40 weeks to kill them because they love to kill babies. You know what I mean? Like that's, I mean, I remember sitting at CPAC and then being like, and they kill the baby right when it comes out. And I know in my own experience, like, you know, I've never had an abortion, but I have had. had two pregnancies and one pregnancy where there was a chance that I had this baby that was going to die. And, you know, had the baby had the disease where they were going to die, I was going to

have to have an abortion. And he turned out to be fine, and he's 18 now. And, you know, but like, and the people I know in my concrete life, and again, you know, these are purely anecdotal stories, but the people I know, I had a friend who had to have an abortion because the baby was dead. This sort of activist culture would like us to say we don't have to apologize, the abortions we have. But I would like to say that, like, from what I know, the people I know who have had abortions, it really has been a very difficult choice that was, you know, necessary for any, for any number of reasons. So I do think that it is the kind of, like, disbelief that these people on the right had and the kind of rage they had that this could

never happen is a really good example of why these are not the people who should be deciding what medical procedures are legal and what are not. Yeah, and in case we're not sure what these people actually want, Politico has a thing now. They talk to Jim Bob, who's the General Counsel for the National Right to Life Committee. They are authoring a lot of what's called model legislation, which is that various state legislatures look at, and they try to pass these strong anti-abortion laws based on this model legislation that's drafted by an RLC. he told Politico that, yeah, under their model legislation, the girl would have had to carry her pregnancy to term. She would have been required to do so under the law as they have drafted.

Here's his quote, she would have had the baby and as many women who have had babies as a result of rape. We would hope that she would understand the reason and ultimately the benefit of having the child. Yeah, at 11. She's 10. Like, again, evil. These people are evil. I don't know any other word for it. I just don't.

Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. Evan McMullen is a former presidential candidate, as well as an independent candidate for the Utah Senate against Mike Lee. Welcome back to the new abnormal, Evan McMullen. Great to be with you, Molly. Thanks for having me. I'm really glad you're back because I was watching the hearings and I was thinking that I wanted to talk to you because, though Mike Lee has not been in this particular episode of Donald Trump tries to overturn her life. He has been in other episodes along the way. I mean, you're a person who was sort of an early take a stand against what has happened to the Republican Party.

How did you feel watching those hearings? You know, I've been thinking a lot about Greg Pence, former vice president Pence's older brother who now holds Mike Pence's former seat in Congress in the same district. And I think the Republican Party right now largely is Greg Pence. Greg Pence was with the vice president on January 6th and was ferried out of harm's way in the Capitol by the Secret Service with his younger brother, the vice president. And then later on that date, voted not to certify the election and then voted against the January 6th commission twice. He heard the chance of the insurrectionists, hang Mike Pence, and still voted against the January 6th committee. So, and to, again, not to certify the election. I, you know, I think it's, look, it's about power for the far right. It's about holding on to power at any cost.

And that, you know, they've taken over the Republican Party, and most of the party is still under that spell. Here in Utah, it's a bit different, though. We just had our Republican primary. 40% of Utah Republican primary voters voted to replace Mike Lee, who played an integral role in the attempt to overturn the election. He advised the spurious legal challenges to the election before January 6th. He was then, it seemed, the brains behind the effort to find fake electors in swing states, advocating as early as early December that the White House find what he called alternative

electors from swing states because he thought that would offer the best chances of overturning the election. And then when it didn't work out and it was clear that it wasn't going to work out, he bailed. It's sort of like a, you know, it was, you know, a planned heist of a jewelry shop. And Mike Lee was the brains behind the operation. And, you know, he wasn't, you know, the fastest mover. So he agreed to drive the getaway car. But when it was clear that the plot wasn't going to work out too well, he decided to take off a little bit early and act like, you know, he wasn't involved at all. But, but he played an integral role and still needs to be held accountable. We need to know fully what Mike Lee knew and what actions he took beyond those that we already know. And they're very

concerning. But it's, I will say, Molly, the good news is that I see a weakening in Trump support across the country here in Utah. He pulls at about 34, 37 percent, rather. And I think that's why we're now seeing as early as this morning talks of Trump launching his 2024 presidential campaign, even before the midterms, even sometime in the summer. There's a Washington Post report about that. And I think it's because he's getting nervous that his support is weakening. So let's go a little further with that. You are on the ground in Utah running as an independent for Senate.

Democrats did not run a candidate. you're not a Democrat, but you're not running against a Democrat. But you're on the ground in Utah. So what are you seeing? I mean, are you talking? Tell us what it's like there and what the mood is and what the feelings are towards Trump. I think that people are tired. They are tired of the chaos and the broken politics and the extremism. You know, I ran out of contacts last week and this week had to go get my. I checked so I could make a new order of context. And I went to a new optometrist this time. And while I was there, the doctor recognized me and told me that he had almost voted for me in 2016. But in the ballot, in the voting booth decided that he was a Republican and pretty conservative, I think. And he said, look, I just couldn't vote for a Democrat and was more worried about a Democrat winning the White House. So even though I preferred you, I voted for Trump. And I know that 13% of the electorate in 2016 did that. They preferred me, but they voted for Trump. We won in a three-way race,

21 and a half percent of the vote. But he went on to say that he voted for Trump again in 2020, but he said, I quote him, I half regret it now. And I said, well, why? And he said, he's just too divisive. I'm just so tired of all the division. And I said, okay, well, that's interesting. We talked about some other things. And then I asked him, well, what do you think about Mike Lee and Senator Romney. Do you support them or one of them? He said, I really like Senator Romney, but I can't support Mike Lee anymore. And I said, well, why not? And he said, he's just too divisive. I'm just tired of it. And here in Utah, we're experiencing a lot of challenges. You know, we've got inflation that's worse than many other states. We've got severe drought

problems caused by climate change. We've got, you know, severe air quality problems in the summer, especially during the fire season. And then the usual things, high health care costs and on and on. But people here just have a sense that our politics are broken nationally and we need change, but it needs to be more constructive change. And that's why I think we're now in a neck and neck race with Senator Lee and have the opportunity to replace him, help defend our democracy from the far right and those who would tear it down and move our country forward on a range of issues. So that, That, I think, is the mood. People are tired. They want change, but they want more constructive, effective change, not the, you know, not the extremes who have just failed to govern. I mean, Utah is an interesting place because it's a very red state, but it's not a red state in a way a lot of other red states are.

Will you explain to our listeners a little bit about what Utah looks like? Yeah, you know, it is an interesting state in that by party affiliation, this is the dynamic, 15%. of Utahans are registered Democrats. 35% of Utahans are registered independents. And they lean as a whole Democratic. Now, there are conservative independence, of course, but those independents increasingly have leaned Democratic. And then 50% of Utahans are Republicans,

and about a third of those have been committed anti-Trumpers, frankly. So I would call them principled Republicans, to put it more positively. And now we see about 40% of Republican primary voters. And of course, they tend to be more conservative and more engaged than the general election Republican electorate. So about 40% in this last primary voted against Mike Lee, which means that I think that principled Republican group of Republicans is now growing in Utah, which is a good thing. The other thing, according to our polling, you know, if you ask Utah Republicans, who's more. or what's more important to you, the party or Donald Trump. 51% of Utah Republicans say the party and 49% say Donald Trump.

So it's never been a great state for him. In 2016, he won 45% of the vote, which is terribly low for a Republican presidential candidate in Utah. But then in 2020, he won 58% of the vote. Of course, I wasn't in the race in 2020. There wasn't a major independent alternative. And so, you know, Trump performed. better than he did in 2016 in 2020. But he's now polling at about 37% and he quickly dropped off of that 58% election high in 2020

after January 6th and for other reasons as well. And the main thing is just a lot of people here voted for him because they wanted to vote for a Republican, but they never loved him. And so if they're given another alternative that they think reflects their positions enough or their values enough, their traditional or moderate Republican views, they will choose that rather than Donald Trump or the far right. And that's, you know, that in part is what gives me optimism about our future here in Utah, but what we can do as a country as well. Do you think that the January 6th committee is having a real impact in the, in Utah? Like, do voters

talk to you about it? Do you think people, like, I know what. my bubble thinks. But I'm curious what you're seeing with voters. Yeah, you know, I don't think, and I don't think we should expect there to be a dramatic shift because of the January 6th hearings. You know, Fox News carried them or carried them regularly. You know, perhaps there could be something more dramatic. I would not expect it to be dramatic. So I want to help manage everyone's expectations. But what I do see is, you know, the January 6th and the sort of bearing of truth about January 6th is allowing people like me who are, you know, I'm building a cross-partisan coalition. You mentioned it a little bit. But, you know, Democrats haven't nominated a candidate in this race. The United Utah Party, a third party here is also not nominated a candidate.

Rather, they've joined my campaign. we already have support of about a third of Republicans, even though we've just started paid media to them. So we're building this cross-partisan campaign. And that's what excites me most. But I think we're aided in that effort by this bearing of truth in the sense that it offers the next opportunity or the opportunity to peel away the next layer of Republicans

and bring them into this broader, I would call it, a pro-democracy coalition. And so, you know, I think back to the optometrist from this week, a nice guy, you know, young guy seemed to me to be in his late 30s. You know, I asked him, why won't you vote for Donald Trump again? And I said, does it have anything to do with January 6th? And he says, yes, that's part of it, actually. You know, and then he went on to say that Donald Trump was just too divisive and he just couldn't support him anymore.

But I think it's, you know, this is a, this is someone who reluctantly voted for Donald Trump twice and now regrets it because of what he saw in January 6th and just the overall divisiveness of who he is. Again, not a major shift, but this is an incremental, you know, John Boehner used to say that politics is, is a, is like football. It's a game of inches. And I've never forgotten that. I think, I think that's right. And this is a, this is a game of inches, the fight for America. American democracy, we need to fight and claw for every next inch building this pro-democracy, this cross-partisan pro-democracy coalition to win elections, defend our system of self-government, and help the country constructively overcome its major challenges. And that's what my campaign is about, but that's what I believe is the key to saving this whole thing, this whole experiment in freedom that is the American Republic. There's been a lot of polling recently saying a lot of things. One of the things that a lot of these polls have said is that, like, people are mad at democracy. They don't feel like it's working.

They're fed up. I mean, does that worry you? I mean, do you think there are enough Americans who sort of believe in the central tenants to keep this thing going? I mean, are you worried about that? I worry that there aren't enough voters who cast a vote first and foremost for the defense of our constitution, for example, upholding our Democratic Republic. I wish it were the case. You know, if we were talking baseball here and you supported one team and I supported the other,

you know, when push comes to shove, we both probably, though, we may hate each other's teams. We may hate each other as fans of each other's teams, but we're both equally committed to the rules because we just have to have the rules or there's no game. In this case, there's no republic without, you know, the structure and the rules and the laws and the institutions that uphold that uphold our, our. democracy. So I wish that were the case, but the reality is it just isn't. But this is the opportunity, Molly, and the need for the democracy movement. Now is our chance to show the country that democracy can work and that democracy can serve the people. And that as Winston Churchill said, look, democracy isn't the best form of government, but it's better than all the rest or something like that. I'm paraphrasing. That's the case. But we have to show those of us who are in favor of our system of self-government. that it works. And this is the only way to solve our problems. When authoritarian's come to power, they serve themselves. You know, I read the recent Vanity Fair article about Peter Teal's quote,

New Right. And at the end of that, there's a conversation with J.D. Vance, who supported me in 2016 and then joined the dark side. And he talks there about how democracy is failing and we therefore need a strong man to, you know, an authoritarian to come in and lead the country forward. And the writer says, well, wouldn't that be a terrible thing for the future? And J.D. Van says, wouldn't that be a terrible thing for America? And J.D. Van says, it won't be as bad as you think it'll be, which is a really chilling sort of thing to say. But look, the reality is we have to show the far right and I think extremes in general always fail to govern. Now is our chance to step into the void as a pro-democracy cross-partisan coalition

and help the country overcome inflation, help the country protect its air and water, help the country lower health care costs. But we've got to be able to stand up to the corruption in the system. And that's why in my campaign, I'm not taking any PAC or special interest group money. About half of Mike Lee's money comes from PACs and special interest groups, mostly outside of Utah.

And so it's no wonder, for example, why he doesn't represent Utah. And that's a reflection of our entire system right now. So we have to be real ourselves about defending democracy, about standing up to the corrupting influences in it, and putting people first. And that's what this campaign is about. I'm running as an independent, you know, independent of parties, independent of party bosses, but also independent of the corrupting influence of money in politics. And that is why this is now a tight race, because people see all that and they say, okay, yes, this is the kind of change I'm looking for. I don't want the divisive stuff. I don't want the destructive chaos of the far right. I want something that is actually going

to fix the problem and put me and put us the people first. And that's what we're doing. Evan, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Mary Trump is the host of the Mary Trump show and the author of Too Much and Never Enough, as well as the reckoning. Welcome back to the new abnormal, Mary Trump. It is so good to be back. It's been quite a while. You're one of my favorite guests. It's really true. And also just a lovely, lovely person. Oh, thank you. I just watched the hearings on Tuesday. I'm curious your hot take at this point.

There's so much information coming out. It is at times difficult to process. probably the most glaring part of these hearings is how much the people around Donald knew, how long they knew it. And again, none of this should shock us. None of his behavior should shock us. None of his viciousness should shock us. But how long they stayed silent, how long they protected him, knowing what they knew. And I don't just mean in real time. I mean, I mean, when there was an opportunity to do something even after January 6th. I just want to add on that I actually had that same thought

when I was listening to hearings that like, oh my God, so many people covered for him. When you listen to Cassidy Hutchinson about the catch-up and about the throwing the stuff on the wall and about the, you know, I mean, look, there are any number of crimes,

but I just thought to myself, Like this man had a sort of a vast web of people covering for him. Yeah. And I think the playthrowing incident was not recent. You know, I've heard comparisons with Nixon. Well, when Nixon was rambling around the White House, drunk off of his ass, that was during Watergate. You know, I'm not saying that other, he didn't do other untoward things. But the point is that do we really think Donald wasn't behaving like this every year?

step along the way for all of those four years. Do we really think he took the first impeachment calmly or took any thwarting of his desire for power or whatever? Do we think that he was just calm, cool and collected then? And it was only after the election that he started losing. Of course not. So the silence, the enabling, they're continuing to admire him is so egregious and almost incomprehensible. That is the thing that I was struck by, too, and like the weird familial cover-ups. This is a stupid thing, but it's clearly what you do when your father is a volatile dictator, right? Is that you cover for him. So when the chief of staff said they sent her to keep him calm, and then they asked her if she had gone to keep him calm, and she said, I don't know why you would ever think that.

when it's been reported like 10 million times, like just these little ways in which the family system of the Trump family is sort of disintegrating in front of our very eyes. Yeah. And we knew or should have known that this was what would happen when it got to the point where Donald was in serious trouble that even he may not be able to get out of. Ivanka clearly has come down on the side of protecting herself. And her way to do that is quietly. You know, she'll tell the as little of the truth as she can, although apparently she may have perjured herself. I can't wait to hear more about that. And then she'll just slink away and pretend she was never really involved. Whereas Donnie, on the other hand, seeing a vacuum, is going to go all in. And again, it goes back to the fact that.

that all of these relationships are both conditional and transactional. Yeah. Explain that a little more with Donnie because I just am curious what you mean. I think it's not evenly split conditional transactional. I think with Avonka, it's more transactional than conditional. And with Donnie, it's the other way around. He has always been the least favored, right? Right.

Clearly this upsets him. And he knows that the only way to get any semblance of attention or, dare I say, affection from Donald is to become his number one surrogate, which now, as we know, requires being as mendacious, as violent and as cruel as he can possibly be. I think that's the cost of admission. Think about how horrifying that is. just on a human familial level. Yeah, it seems like a period right now where a lot of polls saying that even, you know, people don't, a lot of Republicans want to move past Trump, a lot of, you know, there's a lot of anxiety in Trump world that Trump is missing his moment,

which is why he wants to announce before the midterms and will he do it. Like, you would think that these kids would maybe be looking for an off ramp the way that Jared clearly has been, but it almost feels like with junior, he's just sort of gone more all in and not in a way to diversify his, you know, like someone like junior, again, I'm no fan of juniors and he's no fan of mine, but he could win a congressional seed. But he seems to have no interest in diversifying. You know, he sort of goes more daddy and not less. I mean, first I'd say, you would have thought that the Republicans would have taken an offer up to. They had so many opportunities.

And that never, it hasn't happened yet. That will make the next few months interesting slash terrifying. As for Donnie, I honestly don't think he has a choice. In this same way, Donald is incapable of making certain decisions. It's constitutional. You know, they're just constitutionally incapable of pivoting or, you know, think of how many times Donald did something that was self-defeating, if not self-destructive.

Because he can't help himself. I think with Donnie, clearly the guy has a lot of problems. And he is not an intelligent person. But I think he's smart enough or has the instincts enough to recognize that doing something independently of Donald is not going to work out well for him. His job right now is to be all in on propping Donald up and promoting him at every turn. And, you know, listen, all of these children know, upon which side their bread is butter. So I think that's the most basic,

but then there is also this weird longing, this unrequited longing that Donnie has to be somebody, his father gives a shit about. So interesting. I mean, you rarely get to see a kind of Shakespearean drama played out in quite this way. And so the elements are just so profound and strange. One of the other things I thought when I was watching, and I'm curious what you were thinking was, was that Liz Cheney is able to be, I want to say evil in the way that the Trumps are able to be evil.

And so you really see why they're so afraid of her. It's fascinating. I don't know they could have picked a better person to play this role that Liz Chady is playing. As you say, it's important for us to remember that she's a horrible human being. Every once in a while, I just think, oh, you know, I'd really like to like her. But no, it's impossible. You know, she's going around telling people that Democrats are murdering babies the second they're born. And she's against everything.

She's evil. You couldn't have someone who wasn't evil be able to do this. No, look, and she's a strong woman. Like, evil or not, she's a strong woman. She's very good. Yeah. No, she's very good. I mean, yeah.

But it's specifically about putting the shift. Yeah. You know, it's quite something to watch. I'm very glad that she's drawn the line. and insurrection and sedition. But it's weird, though, because every other thing she stands for is absolutely against democracy. So it's just...

I mean, there are a lot of people in the Never Trump camp for whom a lot of things that you or I would consider to be beyond the pale, our business as usual. But Molly, she wasn't in that camp. She voted with him 93% of the time. But I'm just saying that there's a wide spectrum of, like, ally. for now who are, you know, beyond the pale in other ways.

That's a really interesting point because, yes, there is this spectrum. And I think on one end of it, yeah, there are allies who aren't just against Donald. They are against the Republican Party as it's currently constituted. But then, yeah, on the other end of the spectrum is Liz Cheney. He's doing one good thing. But she's literally the definition of the enemy of my enemy. Yeah. I thought that it was very effective, the way that.

that they said, you know, it's funny, Playbook does this too. Like, are you, da-da-da-das? Do you work for the president? Like, write to us. In these hearings, she'll say at the end, like, do you have other information? Mm-hmm. Do you, you know, like, do you want to clear your conscience? And that has actually led to more people coming forward. I mean, it's such as sort of, it seems so pedestrian, but it actually has been working. This committee has put on a show. And I'm, mean that as a huge compliment that is compelling. It's incredibly well crafted. It's like must watch TV. The production values are extraordinary. And that's what we need it because this isn't for people like you and me. So when you have live testimony like that and at the end, those calls for

bravery, those calls to stand up to speak truth to power. And then one of my favorite things, cliffhanger. It's quite something to watch. No, it is. And the fact that there will be another month of it or whatever that looks like is kind of amazing. With Watergate, you had a situation where Nixon was drunk, right? What is wrong with Trump? Just give us a two second on what you think the mental health issues there are. Well, they're serious and they're deteriorating. Any serious illness that's not treated gets worse over time. And, And again, I can't say about specifics, but this is somebody, whatever his other addictions may or may not be.

He's addicted to attention. He's addicted to being at the center of attention. I'm sure he's as riveted by these hearings as we are, but in completely different ways. And for him to feel that the focus is shifting away from him or that he's losing power will make things even worse because he won't confront that in process. and deal with it, he will bury it and therefore worsen his situation. So I can only imagine what it's like to be anywhere near him right now. I'm sure the temper, just out of control narcissism must be just unspeakably difficult for people around him to deal with. Not that I have any compassion for any of them at this point.

But yeah, it's only going to get worse from here. They've sort of implied this. We don't really know the whole story yet. But there clearly is witness tampering, right? We don't know what that looks like. We don't know how that exists. But we know there's witness tampering. You know, there's even a phone call that happened more recently.

I mean, you think he's like going around calling witnesses, making sure they don't talk? Sounds like he is. Again, this is totally supposition. And if he is, does he think he's a genius? but is really an idiot being enabled by a lot of people, or am I missing something? That's one of the more fascinating developments. A couple of hearings ago at the end, we were informed that people connected to Donald were reaching out to witnesses in a way that seemed very much.

Mafia. Yeah. I mean, it was witness tempering. It was pressuring. It wasn't subtle. Again, you know, it wasn't, you can't testify or will kill you. but just implying that he's paying attention, he's going to read the transcript, he knows you're on our team. Well, that's one thing. But in this last hearing, Liz Cheney very explicitly said

Donald himself called a witness. Now, we don't know if he left a message. One can only hope. What is important about that to me is that it is an enormous misstep. Donald, whatever else you want to think about him, he's always been really good about keeping his fingerprints off of things and having his minions do the dirty work. For him to reach out directly to a witness, and apparently we know it was somebody on the support staff, somebody who rarely, if ever got phone calls from Donald, suggests to me two things. He's terrified and desperate, and he's completely overestimating his power to manipulate people. I think that that ship has sailed. I don't even know if it's people enabling him anymore. I don't know that there's

but he's even listening to anymore, quite frankly. Right, right. Like, this is the, this is like the mad king part of the drama. Yeah, definitely. And it's interesting, like, this idea that people are begging him not to announce, and then he cannot help himself, right? Like, the Republicans are begging him not to announce before the midterms because it will be a drag on the candidates.

He cannot help him. because he feels that every day he doesn't announce he is less likely to win. Yeah, that gets back to his being constitutionally incapable in certain instances of doing something that would be good for him if he thinks otherwise. Like part of it is an attention thing. It's getting a lot of negative attention, which, you know, my grandfather, Donald used to say all the time there's no such thing as bad news. I think Donald is finding out that that's not the case anymore.

So although he does like the attention, it's not the kind of attention he's used to getting. So he may announce in part to make himself relevant again and part of the conversation, not about the hearings, but about the election. But there's also been some suggestions that he thinks that that could sort of take the heat off of him and make it impossible for charges to be brought or anything like that. And if that is the case, then our justice system is even worse off than I thought. But I think those are the two calculations he's making. One is about attention and the other one is just trying to stay out of trouble because he knows probably on some level that the only way for him to avoid accountability is to be in the Oval Office again. Right. Exactly. And I think that's what's happening. It's so interesting. Thank you so much, Mary Trump. Always so interesting to talk to you. I was such a pleasure, Molly. Thank you so much for having me back.

Andy, who is your fuck-that-guy? My fuck-that-guy is the Uvalde Police Department. And what we saw a day or so ago was video was released of what happened in that elementary school. And it's mostly video of police standing around doing nothing, which is what we knew. But seeing the actual video is just absolutely infuriating. The fact that they had to edit. out the sounds of the children screaming before they release the video is just like, it's one of the worst sentences I've ever seen in my life. Every single one of those cops should be out of a job.

Again, I don't have much more to say about this other than fuck those guys. And also, by the way, yes, the mayor and some other people are very mad at journalists for releasing this video. He called the release a cheap stunt. Fuck you too, buddy. Don McLaughlin. You're on the fuck that guy list. And kudos to the Austin American statesman who actually put out an editorial explaining why they publicized the video. And they were absolutely right, publicized the video. And, you know, who deserves to have that video public and made, or made public are the families of the people who were murdered that day. They deserve to be able to see what exactly the police officers whose salaries they were paying did, which was absolutely

nothing. Yeah, pretty much fuck everyone involved in this story. So my fuck that guy is Matt Walsh. Not to be confused with the actor, Matt Walsh, who is good. The pundant Matt Walsh, though he's not really a pundant. I mean, he does these videos. He does a podcast. He works in the Daily Wire. He has a lot of facial hair. This was his hot take from watching hearings. The house had hearings on abortion, and Matt Walsh was very offended. He said these hearings on abortion are instructive. The liberal witnesses have refused to condemn infanticide. Again, infanticide would mean an infant, right?

So, but I respect the hustle. Refuse to define the word woman and claim that men can get pregnant. Now, again, what is the word woman? I mean, this is like their favorite gotcha, right? They think they got, you know, it's like the, That and the joke about happy unspecified parent day. They're like, we've got it. We got you.

It's like the stupidest people are on the other side. Okay, we cannot share a country with these people. There can be no unity. They are lunatics and monsters. I don't respect them. I have nothing in common with them. I detest everything they believe in stand for. They feel the same about me.

We simply cannot go on. We can go on. I'm sorry that it's upsetting to him. But, you know, Civil War is really bad. Lots of people will die. There'll be a lot of violence. This is not what we want. What we want is not that.

I'm sorry that he's very upset. I guess that helps him sell the podcast. You know, I respect the hell out of anyone who grifts and makes a living doing it. I mean, again, is he a grifter? I don't know. He's a channeler of a kind of rage. But I for sure do not. not think that a civil war is the answer to anything.

No, but I am perfectly happy if he wants to leave. Yeah, I don't think he's leaving. That's my hot take is he's not going anywhere. Okay. But, you know, if he says he can't live with these people and whatever, you know, he should go somewhere where he can live with, you know, like Saudi Arabia, maybe. I don't know. On that note, we'll wrap this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast.

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