The Daily Beast Podcast - Lindsey Graham Just Made a Subtle Terroristic Threat NBD

Episode Date: August 30, 2022

Lindsay Graham said on Sunday that if former President Trump is prosecuted there will be “riots in the streets.” Some call it a prediction. New Abnormal podcast host Andy Levy is calling it a threat. In this latest TNA episode, Andy uses some more descriptive language to describe how he really feels to co-host Molly Jong-Fast who has her own theory for diehard Trump apologists, which includes a spaghetti reference. Then Maxwell Alejandro Frost, the 25-year–old running for Florida’s 10th Congressional District, joins the show. He fills Molly in on why age is nothing but an asset to him—“I went through more mass shooting drills than fire drills. That perspective is important in Congress”—and why you should not ever compare him to Madison Cawthorn. Plus! Rhode Island Congressman David Cicilline, author of House on Fire: Fighting for Democracy in the Age of Political Arson, gets real with Molly on the reason that rich white guys have gotten away with criming for so long—and the Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg-sized elephant in the room. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Molly Zhang Fast, no relationship to Kim Jong-un. I'm a left-wing pundant and a writer at the Atlantic Invo. And I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy and current cable news conscientious objector. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart, conversations with the wisest and funniest and funniest people in science and media and politics that help make what's happening today clearer. Our world has been turned upside down, and on the new abnormal, we'll talk about the people who got us into this mess and how we'll hopefully get ourselves out of it. What a great show we have today. First, we're going to talk to Maxwell Frost, who's the Democratic nominee for Florida's 10th District, is going to be the first Gen Z member of Congress when he gets elected in the fall. And we'll talk to him all about what that means.

Then we're going to talk to Congressman David Cicillini, who represents Rhode Island's First District. And it's the author of a new book called House on Fire, Fighting for Democracy in the Age of Political Arson. We're going to talk to him all about his new book. But first, let's have some fun. Andy Levy. Molly Jongfest. I'm going to read the truth by former president, Donald J. Trump.

Because I think it's important to read it because it's so stupid. By the way, just important to realize that some words are in all caps and others are not. But for almost no rhyme or reason. So now it comes out, comma, conclusively, comma, that the FBI, all caps, buried all caps, the Hunter Biden laptop story before the election, all caps. Knowing that comma, if they didn't comma, quote, Trump would have easily won the 2020 presidential election, end quote. Again, who is he quoting? I don't know. This is massive fraud, all caps, ampersand election interference, all caps, at a level never seen before in our country.

All right, okay, not unusual, the kind of thing he often says. You know, one might say that about James Comey when he released the letter that he was investigating Hillary Clinton two weeks or three weeks before the election. Remedy, all caps, declares, declare. the rightful winner or, comma, this would be the minimal solution, declare the 20-20 election irreparably compromised and have a new election, comma, immediately, explanation point. Oh, yeah. Well, that's fun. You know what's great about it is like it's never happened before because it's so stupid. In a lot of ways, he's a little like George Washington, isn't he?

He's bizarro, George Washington. George Washington didn't want to be king. Donald Trump does. Yeah. Other than both wearing wigs, I'm not sure that they have much in common. The teeth. This has, by the way, 1.28,000 retruths, as they like to call them over on truth, so chose. Very original terminology that they use over there.

Let's just dispense with one thing first. He didn't write this. There's absolutely no, well, there's no way he uses the phrase irreparably compromised. I'm sorry. I look at that phrase and I just think that is not something that Trump types without a typo, by the way, into a phone. So what, so we think Jared came over and did his truth for him? I just think somebody else typed this in and reworded it a bit, but regardless. The idea that somebody else, children,

joined in on this is kind of like, think about the craziest thing you could think of an ex-president suggesting, no, that's too crazy. It's not that it's too crazy, that's for sure. The thoughts are definitely his. I just don't think the words are his. It is August 30th, 2002. I guess technically it's August 29th on the day that he truthed this. And he is still a mere two years into the Biden administration. I would just like to point out that the big knock on Liz Cheney is that she wouldn't move on from the 2020 election. The big knock from people like Kevin McCarthy, I mean, and people like that. Yeah. Is that the country wanted to move on from January 6th and the whole election thing.

Yeah, she was never the one that wouldn't move on. Her not moving on was only in reaction to the fact that Donald J. Trump refuses to move on. I think he honestly believes that all of this. I don't know that he believed it at the time. I think it was just a strategy. But I think it's one of those things where, like, if you tell a lie long enough, it becomes your truth. And I think that's where he is now. I think that he just firmly believes that the election was stolen from him.

And he's never going to let it go, ever. This is going to be his big thing. And that is, I think, going to be possibly the, deciding factor in whether he or DeSantis, at least as it looks right now, is the 2024 nominee, is the extent to which the base, the Republican voters, want to go with that or want to sort of let it go and move on to a different messenger with basically the same nightmare message? I don't know how you have another messenger with this message. Well, I mean, you do only if you don't vote for this guy. That's what I'm saying, I guess, basically, is that it's going to sort of be up to the Republican voters whether or not they want this message or whether or not they just want Ronda Santis's brand of bigotry.

But that doesn't have sort of the baggage of the 2020 election attached to it. I have no idea which way they're going to go. The bottom line is he's never going to let this go. And we're going to keep laughing at it because it is, in the way. intrinsically hilarious, except for the fact that it's not. And it's like I say with a lot of things these days, I wish this could just be funny. I wish you could just cackle about it and say, oh, this crazy guy. I wish he could just be America's wacky neighbor. Right. But he's not, unfortunately. So as funny as this would be in a vacuum, it's not funny because it's fucking up this country.

And it's going to keep fucking up this country as long as the Republicans tolerate it, unfortunately, at least a lot of them seem to be more than willing to do. Now, here's an interesting thing. Lindsay Graham, perhaps you've heard of him, used to be a big fan of John McCain. Yes. Then one day magically became a big fan of Donald Trump's. He went on Fox News and said, I want to find exactly what it is that he said so that we can do it justice because of It's so weirdly insane. Yes.

He went on Fox News and he said there'll be riots in the street if Trump is prosecuted. Trump immediately posted that clip to his true social account. By the way, I think it's important when we're talking about true social to mention the true social is in terrible financial straits and could go under at any moment. So it turns out that starting a new Twitter is not as easy as it looks. It does not look easy. But what I think is interesting here is Lindsay Graham, Senator from South Carolina, you know, if you think of the MAGA senators, I don't think of him. I mean, I know he defends everything Trump does, but I don't think of him as like quite as MAGA as a Josh Hawley or as a Ted Cruz. But he is going full, you know, MAGA here to beat the band. And the idea basically is that our country is a game of Canasta and we're being held hostage until. Trump gets off. Yeah, I saw this quote and I have two reactions. My first is, I don't care. If that's how it's

going to be, that's how it's going to be. You don't not prosecute someone. If you have evidence of crimes, you don't say, well, we can't prosecute this guy because it's going to upset some people. That's not how it's supposed to work. That's how they're hoping it will work. Exactly. But this is, and I think I tweeted at the time, I said, the United States has a longstanding policy that we do not negotiate with terrorists. Because that's what this is. This is, in essence, a terroristic threat. This is saying, if you do this, we are going to burn the place down. The only response to that is if you try to burn the place down, we will take you down.

And that's the only allowable response to this. There is no possible correct response that ends up at, well, we can't prosecute crimes because it's going to upset people. It doesn't work that way. It particularly shouldn't work that way with someone as powerful as Donald Trump. It should work exactly the opposite way. And I am, first of all, they've already rioted.

Right. But I also think this is a last ditch attempt to try. You know, they just have run out of ideas, right? So they're just throwing every piece of spaghetti at the wall in the hopes that something will stop them from prosecuting him. If somehow there's not enough evidence for a prosecution, that's the only reason you don't prosecute. There's no other reason. Every line that's been used, that they've used, starting with, you know, well, if they can do this to the president, imagine what they can do to you,

which is the best. I mean, and as, you know, as we've said prior, he's not the president. But even if he were, the answer is supposed to be, no. Imagine what they can do to you. That's the same things they should be doing to the president. Right. It should be backwards. And so they started with that. And this is just a continuation of that exact same thing. It's like, oh, you can't do this to the president. Fuck you. You absolutely can do this to the president. You should do this to the president. If the president breaks the law, the president should be prosecuted. That's the only way this

country works. That's the only way any country works. The countries that don't do that don't work. Well, they work for just about 10 or 15 people. Teen people. Right. No, exactly. Right. And, you know, these are the same people, by the way, who are at least pretending to be up in arms about Joe Biden calling them semi-fascist. And the only thing I can think of for that is that they've worked so hard to become fascist that they're mad that he only called them semi-fascist. And that's the only reason they should be upset by that, because that's what this is. That's exactly what this is. This is fascism. This is saying, You cannot go against, you know, our leader, the leader of our party, because we will riot if you do.

And the law be damned. And Lindsey Graham's a damn lawyer. And he should know better. He does know better. Like you said, he's just a sycophant. He's not a true, true believer of anything. He's soulless. He is a soulless human being.

Yeah. So that allows him to say things like this and, you know, somehow go to bed and sleep at night. I don't get it personally, but I thank God every day. I'm not Lindsey Graham. I think what is the most interesting is that we have this phenomenon right now where a lot of Republicans have figured out that Dobbs is a loser for them, right? Abortion is a loser for them. And you're seeing them quickly pivot or lessen their position or scrub there. We're going to talk about this later.

There's somebody who changed his position on his website. They're seeing now that most people, that what the point is. has said for years and years is that most people are pro-choice. And now it's turning out after Kansas and seeing Democrats win this special House race, New York 19, that actually what we've been saying this whole time is actually true. And Dobbs is a loser for Republicans. And you see Republicans getting away from it. Trump is a loser for Republicans, right? Like, he's a loser. Like he lost a general. His candidates for Senate all suck.

Dr. Oz is getting eaten by Federman's Twitter. A lot of these guys are, you know, one is worse than the next. I mean, Herschel Walker is talking about air coming from China. These are bad candidates. And this is a bad president. And like, you're not seeing Republicans pivot away from him or at least not yet. And it's interesting to me that they think. That this, like, they're really in a pickle here because they, you know, with abortion, they know they have to sort of pretend not to be the zealots they are.

But with Trump, if they do that, Trump's going to come after them. So I think they're in quite a pickle, which is really good and fun. As we say, we love to see it. Yes, we do love to see it. But I think you're right. And I think it goes maybe even a little further in that these are the things that they want to talk about. They want to stoke up resentment over the FBI searching Mar-a-Lago, regardless of the fact that everything was done completely above board.

And it appears that they actually got stuff that Trump had a bunch of stuff that he shouldn't have had. But throw all that out. What they want to focus on, and I do think you bringing up the abortion thing is a very good point because as you said, they don't want to focus on stuff like that because that's a loser for them. So what they want to do is go back to the resentment stoking, which is what they're really good at. And they want to, you know, make this look like this out of control government that Joe Biden went into Trump's, you know, home and did all this stuff, which obviously, again,

couldn't be further from the truth. But they don't. care about that, that part doesn't matter. What matters is stoking the resentment. And they do see that, you know, and I think we talked about this on maybe the last episode, the polls do show, polls of Republicans show that they are, Republicans in general, are very upset about the, the quote unquote, raid on Mara Lago. So that's, they think at least, that's a winning issue for their base, because again, it gets back to the resentment thing. And so that's why you have Lindsey Graham out there saying, you know, we're going to riot in the street. That's why you have them the talking point of, you know, if they can do this to the president, think what they can do to

you. And it allows them to paint this picture of this out of control, you know, government coming after them. And by them, I mean, you know, white people. Because that's, that's, that's what that, that's what Trumpism is based on now. It's based on the resentment of white people. And, uh, Ben Collins had a really good quote that I, right, that it was a revenge fantasy and not a political movement anymore. And I think that's right. But I also think they don't have the numbers. Like when Trump was first, when the search was first announced, Trump said, you had Jason Miller go on television and say, like, now you've done it. Now he's definitely going to run. And the thing is, like, we already knew he was going to run. So it was like this, like,

abuser mentality, except we had already been abused. Like, we knew it. But we already knew he was going to run. So it was like one of these, you know, it was an empty threat. And And we saw more and more Trump's people saying, like, you guys did this by trying to pursue him. You set this up. And it's like, but you guys were at 100 already. Like they're like, we're going to riot now. It's going to be civil war. You guys were saying it was going to be civil war last month because of drag queen's story hour.

Like, you can't, it can't always be civil war. Like sometimes you got to take a break. It's August. Right. And this goes back to this, you know, this was bubbling up. other day online how, you know, conservatives or Republicans love to say that, oh, they got radicalized by the way Romney was treated in 2012 and that's why they're, you know, and it's like, give me a fucking break. Like, look, I don't even justify, I do think Romney was treated a bit unfairly,

but that doesn't justify. Al Gore. I mean, right, exactly. Or won the popular vote. And then, I mean, look, Hillary, I look, Hillary Clinton, whom I don't particularly like was, not particularly treated fairly. But the point is, it's like, if that's your excuse for now supporting people who... Do fascism, then... Right. Yeah. So we're semi-fascist.

Like Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis, and if that's your excuse for somehow, for being anti-trans and anti-gay, then guess what? You were always that way, and you were just looking for a reason to do it. So enough. Maxwell Frost is the Democratic nominee in Florida's 10th district. Welcome to New Abnormal, Maxwell. Thank you so much. It's great to be here. I am so excited to have you, and I really wanted to talk to you about your candidacy and, you know, being this sort of the beginning of a new generation of candidates.

Yeah, well, you know, it's great to be here. And, you know, I think when I think about a new generation of candidates, I think it's about age, but also just folks who come from working class backgrounds who really understand the urgency of these issues. So for me, a new generation means so many things, including age and experience. And it's an honor to play a small part in such a big puzzle. So how did you decide to run for Congress? So for me, I was actually asked early last year by some organizers here in Orlando to run. First thing I said was no. In fact, I said, hell no.

I said, I'm okay. Don't see myself running for office right now. And, you know, at the time, I was the National Organizing Director of March for Our Live. And so my work was, you know, ensuring that we took our moment, which was the largest march of the history of the U.S. led by students and, you know, make it into a movement. And that's the work I had been doing for the past two years. But you know what? They planted a seat in my mind. I started having conversations with folks across the district. I found out that most people were excited about having a young person run on a platform of love for their community. I was still out of crossroads. I've worked a lot of these campaigns

since right out of high school, and even during high school, I interned on multiple campaigns and knew how much work it would be, and I was not running to shift the field. I was not running to make a statement. I was running to win, and I wanted to make sure I could win.

And I wanted to make sure my heart was in it because that's, you know, the people of this district deserve nothing less. And this is Val Demings's seed. Yeah, District 10. Yeah, Val Deming's seat. She's getting a good promotion at the end of November going to the Senate.

But, you know, what changed everything for me was connecting with my biological mother. I was adopted at birth. Something in me told me I needed to connect with her in the midst of this, you know, fork in the road I was in. And connecting with her, learning about her life, there was a specific thing she told me, which was that she had me at the most vulnerable point in her life. And for me, there's a Dr. Cornell West quote where he says, we need to see the world through the eyes of the most vulnerable.

And that has been my motto for as long as I can remember as an organizer, or hear my biological mothers essentially say the same thing, changed everything for me. I mean, I hung up the phone. It was almost spiritual. And I said, I'm running for Congress. Wow. Talk to me about what your race looks like. So currently or what it looked like?

Both. Is it redistricted? Explain to us sort of the nuances of what your situation is. So, you know, our governor had a goal during redistricting, which was to erode democratic support more broadly in the state, but also specifically cut black representation from Florida in Congress and half. He did that by gerrymandering and changing Al Lawson's seat up in North Florida, but also our seat here in District 10. And what he did is he took the bluest parts of Valdebbing's district, the bluest parts of Stephanie Murphy's District, and he combined them into one super blue

district, which is the district I'm in right now. Now, it's an incredibly diverse district, but what it does is it takes away the opportunity for black folks, especially here in West Orlando, to pick the representative that they want, and especially having a black person in Congress from Florida representing this area. Obviously, we're denying Ronda Santis one of those two seats with my election here as a black candidate. However, we'll see what happens in North Florida,

but that's the makeup of the district. Now, the district as it stands, District 10 is very diverse. It also has a diversity of economic status, culture, race. It's very interesting and very beautiful and really encapsulates the beauty of Orlando. in central Florida. So I ran in a field of 10 candidates, including two former members of Congress and a state senator, some other people. I always say something that gives me hope in this crowded

primary is there was a teacher running. There was a dietitian running, a civil rights attorney, a pastor, I think more races need to have, need to look like that, having people different wants of life coming and saying, you know what, I've been a pastor in this community and I can serve. And that's admirable to me. And that was the race I ran. We run their primary. And now, In the general, I'm going up against Colonel Calvin Wimbish, who served our country, in the military, which I deeply respect. You know, my dad was in the military. My dad's dad was in the military. My dad's dad was in the military. So, you know, I come from a veteran family and respect that. But, you know, he has some very disqualifying views around the integrity of our elections, doubting our democracy, believing the president isn't the real president because he wasn't elected. and also believing that our queer brothers, sisters, and siblings shouldn't be able to marry.

And, you know, in a city like Orlando is just not the representation we need. You know, I think a lot about I don't want to appear agist, but I think a lot about there's a senator who is a Democrat who said that, you know, she's not worried about climate. She's not worried about this. She's not worried about that. She's not worried at all. And it made me really what I was really. reading these quotes, this interview, it made me really understand how important it is to have people in Congress who know they will be alive in 20, 30 years. Yeah, I mean, I agree. And,

you know, what I always say, and, you know, I've been doing a good amount of press lately, and sometimes I'll get tweets that say, we need a clear house and just have Gen Z. And that's not really my position. Mine is one that says, look, we need a Congress and more broadly than Congress, just a government, state, local, federal, that looks like the country. That means in race, but it also means an experience, and that's what I was getting out earlier with getting teachers running and stuff like that, but it also means an age. And so I think it's important to have different people from different generations because the fact of the matter is, depending on the generation you grew up and you grew up in different times with different circumstances, you're thinking about things in a different way, and you come to the table with a certain type of urgency that is really predicated on your upbringing and who you are, the experience of you, experiences that you've had in life. And I think it's incredibly important to have baby boomers in Congress and have Gen X and have Millennials and have Gen Z because our generation is, look, I went through more mass shooting drills and fire drills. That perspective is important in Congress.

I'm thinking about the fact that I live in Florida, and this is that the former buzzword intersectionality, it's super important though because you're talking about a Gen Z that's from Florida, which is ground zero for the climate crisis. And so that's something I'm really thinking about because we are already experiencing the effects here. And I know it's not even me, but my kids, kids and my kids that are going to be bearing the blunt of this problem. And so for me, it's about fighting for those solutions and bringing that urgency to the table. Yeah. No, I agree. And I think it's super, I think that's really, really important. It's so hard to sort of turn over these seats, too. I mean, we saw this where we come from. We

We had an incumbent in my district for a long, long time, who just would not let go. And I think it's hard because you don't want to be ageist, but you also don't want to be ruled by people who are in their 70s and 80s. You want to have a real government that looks like the people. Yeah, exactly. And that's one of the reasons why I decided to run even being young. I wasn't going to let my youth dissuade me. And again, I think it's a more now we have all different types of experiences at the table. when it comes down to older folks, I do think we need that experience at the table. But the thing is,

when we think about the country, I mean, I think it's over a third of the country are millennials and Gen Z. And yet, you know, I'll be the first Gen Z year in Congress, right? And so that, that for me is a problem. But, you know, I'm excited to, I'm the first, won't be the last, obviously. And it's not just about Congress. It's about city councils. It's about county commissions. It's about state and local office. And so I plan out, you know, outside of D.C., I plan to be a real voice and helping people to run because this, this wasn't easy, you know, and like, and I'm blessed to have such a good support system, but it should be easier for people to run for office, especially young people and especially people who don't have a lot of money in the bank.

Where do you see yourself fitting in? The Democratic Party is big and there's a lot of different, And I think, you know, it's a big tent party. What part of that tent do you see yourself in? All of it. You know, for me, it's less about figuring out what group I belong to or what area I belong in and more about, you know, you're going to have different allies and different battles. That's something I learned working at March for Our Lives, where we fought to pass, you know, gun legislation at the state and local level, but also at the federal level and learn that

sometimes I would, you know, have allies on certain fights that maybe I disagreed with on a lot of other things. But the good thing is because we had that relationship of working together on a specific policy. We come to each other with open hearts, open minds, and assume best intentions and know that at the end of the day, we want the better world for everybody and we just disagree on how we're going to get there. And there's been instances where I've been able to, I don't want to say convince, but just talk with people about my viewpoint and have them more open than just shouting from across the room. And as an organizer, that's what organizing is about. It's about the battle of hearts and minds, bringing people together around common shared values.

And I want to do everything I can when I step in a room to have everyone have those open ears and have those open arts ready for the discussion. And same thing with me. And for me, I think sometimes when you paint yourself in a specific area, you create a condition in which you walk in a room and people might already be shut down. And it's unfortunate and like people shouldn't be that way. But that's kind of the world we live in. It's the reality, especially being here in the South,

especially being in Florida. And, you know, for me, it's just about having that open dialogue and but being steadfast in my beliefs. You talked about lockdown drills. Chessie and I are both really old. We're in our early, early 40s. That's not old. No, I know. But we didn't grow up with lockdown drills.

Your generation really did. I'm curious, since you have had your life so touched by gun violence, do you think that your generation will be. able to sort of get this under control. I think so and I hope so. And that's why we need to get, we need to really work at building a bench to get young folks in government. I think, you know, obviously my election, this is really exciting, but I'm one in a body of four over 400 people, 435 people, right? And like, and what I've been telling folks is, you know, I've been getting a lot of tweets and messages and people saying you're going to save us. And I, you know, I want to be really clear here. I'm not a savior, right? I'm one of many voices in a body, a representative.

body. I don't believe we should ever put our full faith in one person, especially as a movement organizers, I recognize that it's not about one, getting one person in a place, but getting so many people in a place and changing the way we think about things. I'll always say I'm a small part and a really big puzzle, and I'm honored to play this piece, but movement building is about bringing people along for the journey. And so it's not just about me. It's about getting more people into that door as many as possible. That's what I'm going to be focused on outside of D.C. and outside of working with my constituents in my district, I do believe we can get this problem under control. It is avoidable. I mean, I was just thinking about this a couple months ago. What got me into this fight was Sandy Hook,

where a young man bought an AR-15 and murdered a ton of children and teachers. Ten years later, I'm running for Congress, and the same thing happened in Yuvaldi. It's literally predictable. It's literally predictable. Their policy can fix this and it's a policy failure. So because I know it's almost that black and white, right, it's a nuanced thing. There's a lot to it. But because I know that we can have a real impact on it, I do have faith that we can solve this problem and a lot of the other problems. And not to get too deep into this, but we got to view these issues holistically. And I think that's something that, you know, especially young people bring to the table is, you know, I know that if we're able to get health care to every single person in this country, people are going to be less likely

to use a gun to solve their problems. I know that if we're able to do what we need to do at ensuring that people have a livable wage, that they have money in their pockets, that people will commit less crime and that will help solve a lot of issues. So everything intersects with one another. Everything is connected, right? And like, we just have to, we can't view these issues in a silo and expect for us to come up with the solutions we need because that's what the opposition wants us to do is think of everything siloed off. Because when we silo off the discussions, we silo off the organizing, and that's not how we're going to win. Maxwell, so some people, though, argue we just had this, our youngest congressperson, Madison

Cawthorn, flame out from doing a lot of really immature things, and it can be debated the merit of some of the things that were shown about him. But what do you say to people who think that, you know, maybe you're too young? Well, look, I get what you're saying, right? Like, obviously, I don't want to be compared to him just because I'm young, but I, I, also get it, right? I mean, it's interesting because he fell apart. Exactly. And look, what I say, too, is, like, I've been asked about this multiple times. And for me, like, you know, people bring up the scandal and everything. And to be honest, when all that kind of stuff was coming

out towards the end of his career, I don't really care. I mean, that's not for me. And maybe it has to do with my youth. But for me, that was, like, not the reason that he shouldn't be in Congress. For me, it had to do with the fact that he is racist, homophobic in his ideology is about scapegoating vulnerable communities and he's fascist. I mean, like, these are the things that to me we should have been an outrage about. And people were more than the scandals or whatever he said. And we saw what happened. He's not going to be in Congress. And I think a lot of times people who think that way and speak that way, they're shorter-lived. But it is interesting that you did see that the Republican Party certainly can get rid of people. And they chose to get rid of him versus

Marjorie Taylor Green or Lauren Boper, who are both highly inflammatory, deeply racist. And I hesitate to use the word evil, but certainly drivers of bad in this world. Yeah, I mean, it shows that they have the ability to do it. And it looks like they're a bit selective in it. And I know that part of the reason has to do with Madison Cothorn on his way down looking to bring other people with him in the establishment part of the party. And I think when you challenge power or I'm not saying challenge power in a good way. Like I like to challenge power like the way he did. You know, they're going to bring you down.

And they're going to do everything they can to discredit you. And so I think that's part of what happened with him. But, you know, there's so many disqualifying things about Madison Cothorn. Right. You know, he gave young people such a bad name. It's something you just have to be careful with as a young person in politics. Exactly. Like I had experienced publishing books when I was young, and you just have to be careful

because we have slightly less good judgment than older people, except that older people also have bad judgments, though. I don't know what any of that means. But it was so interesting to have you. Thank you so much for joining us, and good luck. Well, thank you so much for having me. Really appreciate it. Congressman David Cicillini represents Rhode Island's First District.

It is the author of a new book called House on Fire, Fighting for Democracy in the Age of Political Arson. Welcome to the new abnormal, David. Thanks for having me. Very excited to have you. The book is The House on Fire, Fighting for Democracy in the Age of Political Arson. I mean, did you ever see this coming how bad things would get?

No, in fact, I also never saw myself writing a book, but I did this really as a way to kind of help sound the alarm and to try to make the case to the American people of the danger that we are in. and this work began after the attack on our democracy on January 6th. And it really occurred to me in that moment that we were at this very critical, really pivotal moment for our democracy and that we were living in really perilous times. And I wanted to take my experience both as a lawyer and as a mayor of a city and now as a member of Congress and as an impeachment manager

to really reinforce the point that this is just a fight to protect our democracy. and that has to become the new priority in the midterms, the protection of our democracy. I never imagined I would be writing a book about this, but I felt like this was a moment that everyone had to do everything they could to kind of ring the alarm bell and make sure people understood what is at stake in this election. It is so interesting to me because we saw you in that impeachment. Where were you on January 6th? On January 6th, I was in my office.

in the Rayburn office building. I wasn't on the floor yet. We were taking turns going to the floor because of COVID, so not everyone was there at the same time. And that's when we were advised to remain secure in our office building because the Capitol had been breached. And we watched me and my chief, and a couple of others watched it on television.

And almost immediately, Ted Liu, one of my colleagues from California, came to my office because he had been evacuated from his office. I think he was in Canon. But, you know, as you watched it unfold on TV, you couldn't imagine that this was actually happening in the United States of America that these insurrections were smashing glass, beating police, and forcing their way into the Capitol and then beginning to both chant hang Mike Pence and look for other members of Congress as well as kind of wander around the interior and, of course, the speaker. I've interviewed so many members of Congress who were there. or who were on the floor or who were running through the hallways. It's interesting that, like, I mean, I remember watching it on TV,

watching Jake Tapper was narrating it. And just what a shift it was in the way I thought about our country. Did you have a moment like that? Yes. The moment that really struck me was when they took down an American flag and raised the Trump flag on the exterior of the building. which I think was symbolic for this group, that they had put Donald Trump,

the personality of Donald Trump, above the interests of their own country, above democracy. And, you know, that's something that we have seen that kind of authoritarian leader rise and that kind of movement in other parts of the world. I think we never imagined it could happen in the United States of America.

And to watch this army of people just overrun the capital and begin to do such, and threaten the lives of people who work there and police officers that they were battling with. I mean, it was, I think, the culmination of an effort by Donald Trump to remain in office, to overthrow the will of the American people who rejected him at the polls and a group of people that were following him in this effort and were prepared to, you know, fight against our democracy on his behalf. But I just remember that Trump flag going up on the exterior of the

Capitol. And I thought about, you know, my constituents who ask for flags that were flown over the Capitol to be sent to them to commemorate important, you know, milestones in their lives or veterans that ask for it to commemorate their service. And here this Trump flag had replaced it. It was just sickening. You've come from this very interesting state that I am always very interested in because of a number of reasons, but we have Senator White House on all the time. And it's just an interesting state for because of the future of climate. Can you talk to us a little bit about what's happening in Rhode Island right now? You know, Rhode Island is a state, as you know, with an extraordinary history. It is a state that is fiercely independent and its thinking,

but also a state that because of our shoreline has significant challenges because of the climate crisis. And so we have Senator White House who I think has been the loudest voice about the urgency of responding to the climate. And fortunately, in our passage of the Inflation Reduction Act, we make historic investments in responding to the climate crisis and an effort to reduce carbon emissions by 40%, which will be tremendous progress. Also, importantly, obviously reduces costs on everything from prescription drugs to health care, to energy. So, but we are, you know, we're a state, I think that has always had a proud tradition of sending people to Congress and the United States Senate who become champions on important issues of our day. And we have, you know, an election both

in our congressional races and my race as well as an open seat in the second congressional district. But, you know, Rhode Island was hard hit by COVID and the economic crisis that followed. But I think, you know, we have been able to quickly respond by passing the American Rescue Plan and the bipartisan infrastructure bill and now the inflation reduction act. But those are things that all those things taken together help small businesses get through this pandemic. We got vaccines into arms and got people tested so we could crush the pandemic. We helped reduce child care costs, the cost of prescription drugs. We kept insulin recently at $35 and provided funding for schools to reopen safely and get kids back to school. So I think Rhode Island has been able to respond

with all of the federal help that we've provided to get through this pandemic. Are you seeing the water start to sort of take over the land? And what are you doing on that? Yeah, I mean, we are, you know, Rhode Island, like many other coastal communities, are seeing the consequences of sea level rise and ocean warming and flooding and, you know, hugely challenging weather events. And so Rhode Island isn't protected from it more than any other place. We have a lot of work being done at the state and local level to really build resiliency. And some of the resources that we've provided at the federal level will make a difference. But I think one of the reasons that the Senator White House is,

has been leading the charge and our whole delegation has been strongly supporting all of this is because places like Rhode Island are will continue to see the direct impact of our failure to respond to the climate crisis. And that's why I think it's so critical that we take the efforts we've taken and then also in the infrastructure bill that we're making investments to be sure that we're resilient and can respond to this climate crisis. But this is a real issue. It's also important because oceans are such a big. part of our state's economy. It's not only part of tourism, but it's about fishing. And so, you know, the ability to make sure that we're protecting the livelihoods of so many sectors of

our economy is critical. And also Rhode Island has, you know, led the country as the first offshore wind farm in Rhode Island. That's a important source of new energy, renewable energy. And I think Rhode Island is going to help lead the way on that. So there are some great opportunities, but also some great challenges. Talk to me about what you think is going to happen now with Trump. I mean, you've seen a lot of stuff. You've seen stuff that probably none of us have seen, right? You know, as I recount in my book, I worked as a criminal defense lawyer for many years and had the opportunity to read lots of affidavits and look at lots of criminal investigations.

I think there is no question that the former president faces some very serious challenges, both in the state of Georgia, in the state of New York, and, of course, by the Department of Justice. Wait, in the state of New York, what do you mean? I think there remains an investigation with respect to the financial crimes. But Alvin Bragg has completely just decided he's not going to pursue this for whatever very suspicious reason. He's giving it up, right? Yeah, I mean, that's certainly the current reporting. It's just hard to imagine based on what we already know.

Right. There won't be additional witnesses that come forward. Can we talk about that for a second? It's hard to imagine. why do you think Alvin Bragg decided not to prosecute? I don't know, but look, I think one thing that we hear repeated time and time again and that it's sort of a founding principle of this country is that we don't have a king, we don't have a monarch of any kind that no one is above the law.

At best, Alvin Bragg is afraid to pursue Trump. Or I guess at best he's pretending he's not doing it, but he's really doing it. But more likely scenario is he's scared to do it. I don't know that I'll ever understand the kind of being afraid to pursue Trump. Look, we have rules and we have laws and we have a principle that no one gets to break them and not be held accountable. And that includes the former president in the United States. And although there's a lot of conversation about what would be the consequences if the former

president were criminally charged and wouldn't that be disruptive? And what would actually be more disruptive is we were to violate a founding principle of this country and say, actually, when we say no one is above the law, what we mean is no one but the president is above the law. The president can actually break the law and not be held accountable. That would be a devastating outcome. And so I think everyone has to recognize as hard as it might be if, in fact, the former president of the United States broke the law. He, like every other citizen of this country is responsible for that. And whether that happens in Georgia or New York or in Washington, he must be held accountable if we're going to vindicate the soul of this country

and restore people's confidence in our democracy. And so I think, this president is facing a lot of very serious legal challenges for his conduct. And I have confidence that in the end, justice will be done and he will be held accountable in one or more of these places. And I think it's critical. But I just want to go back to this for second. We're both good Democrats here, you and I. I live in New York. I voted. I voted for Alvin Bragg. Maybe I didn't for him, but I ranked him. What can someone like me do? You know, we had Sy Vance. Sy Vance decided that this was to, you know, decided to not prosecute a number of white collar criminals, some of whom weren't even white collar. They were just rich white guys like Harvey Weinstein. What would someone like me

be able to do in a situation with Alvin Bragg? I mean, he's clearly decided, he's, there's clearly something, you know, two members of his office, resumption. in protest. Clearly, there's some malfeasance here. Why doesn't that get investigated? It's a great question. I mean, typically, you know, obviously prosecutors have a responsibility for their own conduct as well and have to be held accountable if they make either errors in judgment or worse. And so obviously the ultimate ability you have as a voter is to not vote to reelect that person and vote for someone who you have confidence will actually prosecute cases to the full extent of the law as appropriate.

So, you know, part of our system of justice doesn't have individuals who get to individually prosecute cases. And so we rely on public prosecutors to do that. Most often that works because they take their responsibility seriously and they look at the evidence in the law and they make the right judgments. Not always. And we don't know the circumstances of the judgment that Mr. Bragg is making. But I agree with you, the evidence of wrongdoing seems very clear.

hard to understand why prosecutions aren't moving forward. And when that happens, it undermines people's confidence in our institutions and the sense that the law applies equally to everyone. And so I think that's very problematic. And, you know, sometimes it takes longer than we want. But my experience is that in the end, almost always justice is done and people are held accountable for their misconduct. And I think that includes Donald Trump. It's interesting, though, I mean, we talk about nobody's above the law, but really prosecuting rich white guys for crimes has only started happening within the last 30, 40 years. I mean, before that, even less, maybe. Before that, you kind of got to, you know, if you were a rich white guy, you kind of got to pass.

And even now, I mean, people knew about Jeffrey Epstein for years. Some of this is just completely a new phenomenon. on. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that has always struck me, and I began my career as a public defender. And I learned early on that the quality of representation in the courtroom matters. And so obviously, people who have resources have the ability to hire the best lawyers. And our judicial system, sadly, is like so many other parts of our society where, you know, people who have resources tend to get better health care and better legal services and a number of other things. So it's why public prosecuted as responsibility is it particularly important and why the role of public defraudges are so critical. But you're right. Not only was it not common to have rich white guys prosecuted, very often they were able to resolve their cases with civil resolutions or payment of fines or things that treated a lot more like a civil wrongdoing than a criminal case. I think that's beginning to change. But you're right. I think this is a long time coming.

Not to be depressing. Where do you see the leadership going now? The leadership in the house? Yes. You know, I think it will depend a lot on the election. We have a lot of young talent in the caucus, and I think there's a lot of folks who are interested in leadership positions. I think it will depend a lot on the election results and what some of our current leadership decides in terms of remaining in leadership positions or not. So I think everyone right now is singly focused on one thing, making sure we hold on to the House and never let this Republican Party, the party of QAnon and Marjorie Taylor Green and the big lie in insurrection and chaos, get control of the chamber because that will be very dangerous for our country.

Thanks, David. Thank you. Great talking with you. Andy Levy. Molly Jongfest. Who is your fuck that guy? My fuck that guy is a delightful story, actually. And I think it's one of those stories where everyone involved is my fuck that guy.

Donald J. Trump, you may remember him as the former president of the United States. Soon to be re-current president again. Yes. Yes. in his mind, still the president of the United States. Yes, exactly. He and his family are mad that Florida governor, Ron DeSantis, is quote-unquote stealing from him. Rolling Stone put out an article.

I have no idea an article. It's got to be swan, right. I have no idea. I don't look at the byline. Don't ever look at the byline. The byline was a blur to me. He quotes people as saying that Trump has been ridiculing DeSantis for copying his hand gestures and motions, which, by the way, he's not wrong about, because DeSantis has most definitely

been doing that lately, and it's hilariously bad. But it goes even further, and apparently he, DJTJR, as I like to call him, Donald Trump Jr., he says that there's a lot of times that he's been noticing that he'll tweet something, and then not long after that, the points that he makes in his tweets will become, part of DeSantis' talking points. He believes that DeSantis and his staff are looking at his Twitter account for inspiration.

And again, he may not be wrong at that because DeSantis really has, and there are some videos out there that, you know, if you go on YouTube, you can find these videos of DeSantis copying Trump. And they're pretty funny. And they're pretty, they make a very, very compelling case, as I said, that

he is absolutely aping the body language and the hand gestures. But he looks so stiff when he does it because it's not natural to him. And it's so it's just hilarious. This is just absolutely hilarious to me that Don Jr. is out there saying, you're stealing my tweets like it's 2012 and he's a, you know, he's an open mic stand up comedian. It's just absolutely hilarious. And so like I said, it's just everyone involved in this gets my, uh, fuck that guy for today, even though it's a very funny story.

It's amazing is what it is. So my fuck that guy is the brainchild of Peter Thiel. If Peter Thiel could grow a Senate candidate in a lab, he would grow Blake Masters. Unfortunately for him, Blake Masters is a terrible candidate. I want to say something nasty about Blake Masters because he is, like, shockingly racist and sexist and recently suggested that female black and gay officials are hurting the U.S. It's ironic because like the truth is the people who are hurting the U.S. economy are mediocre white men. But the other thing that I want to talk about was he, you know, he's a programmer who works on his site himself.

And he is no longer from personhood for sperm because someone just figured out that they are running for Senate in a swing state. And snow now he is no longer for the grain of rice in your uterus being a human person who should have more rights than you do. Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, Blake Masters. Give you a hearty, go fuck yourself. Yeah, this is just, I mean, it's like the incredible, just absolute whitewashing that he's trying to do here is, I mean, even for them, them being these horrible, horrible Republican candidates and officials. This is like amazing that he just scrubbed an entire section of his website that included supporting a federal personhood law. Oh, he even said, ideally a constitutional amendment. He wanted this in the constitution of the United States.

And he had all of this on his website. And then the next day, one day it was there and the next day it was gone. You know, it gets back to what you were saying earlier in the show about how they, Republicans have realized that this issue is actually a huge loser for them. Yeah. But it's interesting because abortion can't threaten to tweet against them. And so, you know, they've sort of gotten everything they can out of this issue and now realize that there's nothing to do.

It'll be interesting to see now. I think the thing we watch is like, do Republicans start turning against Trump? And if they do, I mean, you saw last week, Mitch McConnell talked about how there was a talent issue. So let's see how that goes with Trump versus Mitch McConnell, because that could play out very messily for the Republican Party. And we will enjoy it very much. Yes, we will, in fact, be glad to see it. On that note, we'll wrap this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast.

In future episodes, we'll be talking to smart folks from the Daily Beast. and beyond from media, culture, politics and science, who will help us understand what's happening to our country and the world. We hope you'll subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app and share the show on social media. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you again on the next episode. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh,

and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the dailybeast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a daily beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast. and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to the DailyBeast.com slash membership slash podcast and sign up today.