The Daily Beast Podcast - Liz Cheney Running for President Is Absurd

Episode Date: August 19, 2022

As the polls closed in Wyoming, the focus over Rep. Liz Cheney became not if she would win the Republican primary for Wyoming’s sole congressional seat, but by how much she would lose. And that loss was colossal. On this episode of The New Abnormal, hosts Molly Jong-Fast and Andy Levy discuss whether the left loves Cheney and why she has no chance at becoming president. Then, Jeet Heer, a national affairs correspondent for The Nation magazine and host of the Time of Monsters podcast, joins the discussion to explain why he thinks we need more Republicans like Cheney. Also, Cristina Tzintzun Ramirez, executive director of NextGen America, the country’s largest organization mobilizing young voters, discusses how she’s inspiring the next generation to get involved. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Molly Zhang Fast, no relationship to Kim Jong-un. I'm a left-wing pundant and a writer at the Atlantic Info. And I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN HLN guy and current cable news conscientious objective. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with the wisest and funniest and funniest people in science and media and politics that help make what's happening today clearer. Our world has been turned upside down. On the new abnormal, we'll talk about the people who got us into this mess and how we'll hopefully get ourselves out of it. What a great show we have today. First, we're going to be joined by Jeet Here, who's a national affairs correspondent for the Nation magazine and host of The Time of Monsters podcast.

Then we'll be joined by Christina Senzun Ramirez, who's the executive director of NextGen America, who's trying to build democracy up one young voter at a time. And we'll talk all about that. But first, let's have some fun. Andy Levy. Molly Jongfest. So today we have lots of good topics. The first is, I mean, I don't even know. Does the left left Liz Cheney?

I mean, look, she lost her job. She did it to take down Trump. I don't know. What else do you have to say? I feel a little bit like her father created this world in which Trump could win a general. Now she says it's gone too far. I mean, I guess congratulations.

I don't know. I mean, I think it's good. I wish more Republicans had done it, but I'll never vote for her or any. to that effect. Yeah, I mean, look, we have to accept that we live in a world where Liz Cheney was not the worst option in her primary. And that's just reality. And that's not, the left is not in love with Liz Cheney and anyone who says that is being absurd. I feel like we say this every week. Like, you can admire someone for doing something right and think that

they're completely wrong and bad all of the other times. Like, that's not inconsistent. That's people. And that's the case here. Like, she got one thing right. And it happens to be a big thing. So she should be applauded for it. But, and that's it.

Like, that doesn't mean that you stand Liz Cheney or that you want her to run for president as people keep saying she's going to do, which is the most insane thing I've ever heard because she has literally no path to the presidency. But the fact of the matter is you would rather have her as the Republican candidate for Congress in her district than Harriet, what's her name, who beat her? I mean, the only thing is they will vote the same. Right. But, well, that's the thing. If it comes down to it and there's a president who tries to steal an election, at least we know Liz Cheney on that one thing will be right.

Whereas I have no confidence at all that her replacement will be the same because she won't. Right. So again, it's just we live in bizarro world where Liz Cheney, as awful as she is, was it's unfortunate that she lost her primary. Right. Exactly. I think that's right. I mean, I think that's the only way. I mean, is she a civility icon?

I don't know. No, I know. And then people are making this big deal that like she conceded gracefully. Okay, great. Like, I get that. It's a very low bar, yes. Right. I mean, that to me is not the same thing as sitting on the January 6th committee and actually fighting to save our democracy. I think she did a really good job with that.

Me too. That's what I'm saying. That was good. Calling your opponent when you lost an election by like 400% of the vote or whatever it was. You know, who was some insane amount. Like, honestly, I think every person that voted for her was a Democrat who switched over. to vote for her. I don't think she got a single Republican vote. That's what it feels like. So that bar is ridiculous. Like, yes, I get it. You've got all these other Republican candidates who, if they don't win, or if there, like, was a Carrie Lake who was losing for a while and was claiming fraud. And then when she took the lead, suddenly fraud wasn't an issue. But I'm sorry, yeah,

that's no bar at all. So no, she's not a civility icon. She's not, look, she's a person who is wrong on 99.9% of the issues facing the country and the world. It just so happens that the 0.1% that she's right about turned out to be a very important thing. And it's bad that she lost for that one reason. I just have to point out for the sake of Daily Beast fact-checking credibility that they make me do that she only lost by 200% of the vote. Oh, I'm sorry. She lost by 200% of the vote. But a little bit more than 200%. Harriet Higman got 113,000. She got 49,000.

I have to say, I don't like to make fun of the way people look because you could catch a screenshot of me looking pretty terrible. But she does have crazy eyes. Harriet Higman, yeah. Can I just say that Wyoming is presumptive soon-to-be congresswoman, Harriet Higman, has a sort of Michelle Bachman eyes? I'm going gaze, gays. Gaze has the female gaze of the Michelle Bacquand.

Friend of the pod, Tim Miller, tweeted something the night that Hageman won, and she said, congrats to my former comrade Harriet Hageman at the 2016 RNC convention. She led a coup against Trump. Six years later, she was elected to Congress solely based on her unequivocal support for Trump's attempt to become an unelected autocrat, a modern-day morality tale in two acts. So, again, the point is that, like, Liz Cheney at least didn't do that. Right. I hate to, like, talk about this anymore because I think people don't really give a fuck.

But does it make you feel a little bit better about this woman that she does ultimately believe that Trump is terrible? No. We've had this discussion, I think, a whole bunch of times. And it's always hard to say, who's worse, the true believers or the scammers. And I think, I'm in one of my moods where I think it's the scammers. I think it's the people who. actually know that what they're saying is bullshit because they are truly revealing that they have no soul and will just say or do anything. At least the true believers have true beliefs as bizarre and

bad as they are. So I could change my mind on this the next time we do this podcast and I could bore people some more with my theories. But that's how I feel right now. Alan Weisselberg Trump's, he's basically the guy who ran the Trump organization, knows where all the bodies are buried. wears glasses, seems kind of like not a very nice guy. He has taken a guilty plea, but so far what I've read has said that he is not. While he is going to implicate the Trump business, he has to pay almost $2 million in back taxes, he will not implicate Trump. I'm sorry.

Okay. Again, many people are saying that the Trump business is run by Trump. but, or at least Eric, I mean, I don't know, the luck of the Trump, right? Your business is in trouble, but somehow you are not implicated. Okay. Yeah, and I, you know, so I guess what he's admitted to is that he and other executives basically did this scam, this whole tax scam with off the book payments and stuff like that. But it's always, like you said, it's like him and other executives, but it's never like

the people whose name is on the organization. The people make the money from the organization. The people run the organization. they're not in trouble. Right. And I just, I got to feel like this is sort of a loss for Alvin Bragg, our lovely Manhattan DA. He's not a loss. He's purposefully not taking on Trump for whatever reason. Yeah. Okay, fine. Yeah, that's a better way to say it than I did. We don't know why, but he's avoiding very. Yeah. And that's what I don't get. Like, why, unless he thought his case was so bad, like, why do you offer this as a plea deal? Like,

where he's not going to, I'm baffled by this, but look, I'm not an attorney, and I don't play one on TV. But the people who work for Alvin Bragg are not baffled. There were two prosecutors who came in, were working on this special prosecution, and they left because they said Alvin Bragg is something's off, something's rotten in the state of Denmark. So look, I mean, I don't know what's going on, but it's not great, not great. Yeah, I just don't get it. And it's just sucks because it, and look, Trump has the way of the weasel where he worked. his way out of everything, so you don't want to count chickens. But we have the whole Mar-a-Lago thing going on, and it finally looks like, hey, there's some headway being made against this guy. And then,

like, that's when you keep the pressure on. That's not when you take your foot off the gas, which it feels is like what Alvin Bragg just did. I mean, I feel like you're giving Alvin Bragg a little too much credit. Like, clearly something's, something's off here. Like, I don't know what it is. I don't want to speculate, but, like, you got a guy who, who's got there's a pretty good case against and alvin brag continually tries to not in any way. Yeah, I'm baffled. I'm absolutely baffled. And, you know, I come on this podcast and I come here mainly to be educated, Molly. And I was hoping that you could explain to me why Alvin Brag is doing what he's doing. And honestly, you have failed both me. And more importantly, I think you failed the listener. What do Laura Angram and Alex Jones have in common?

A lot of things, but I feel like the most recent one is that one of them is definitely turning on daddy. And the other one might be starting to turn on daddy. Yeah. I mean, Alex Jones, I watched that clip like four times because I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I was like, because also with Alex Jones, I never believe it. Like, I never believe if it's like some. kind of weird sci-op or he's trying to, like, get people to think that he's breaking with Trump so that people will say he's breaking with Trump and then he'll come back and he'll be like,

the mainstream media has misinterpreted me. So I'm always, like, very suspicious of those kind of bad actors. But it did seem to me that he was endorsing DeSantis. It absolutely sounded like that. I mean, he literally said, he said, quote, I am supporting Desantis. Then he had an interesting quote, though. He said, Desantis has just gone from being awesome to being unbelievably good. I don't know.

But he meant that as a compliment. And I always thought that awesome was better than good. But look, I haven't just lost a court case to the Sandy Hook parents. So what the hell do I know? I mean, I agree with you, Molly. I mean, Alex Jones saying something doesn't mean that the voices won't tell him to say something else. on Friday. Look, also, this should sort of, I actually like that he's jumping to DeSantis because that sort of puts to bed or should put to bed the whole thing that like, oh, well, at least, you know,

this conservative notion that DeSantis is not as bad as Trump. And it's like, well, yeah, Alex, you know, you got Alex Jones saying he's actually better than Trump. So stop telling me that DeSantis is actually good and is not as bad as Trump, because clearly that ain't the case. Yeah, I have to say that Jones endorsement is something no one wants. I mean, yeah. Yeah, not great, not great. And then you've got your old friend, Laura Ingram, who I believe you went to, was it, did you go to choke? Oh, shut up.

Yeah, yeah. She's quite a bit older than I am, but thank you. Quite a bit. So she's up there, and she's not coming out against Trump yet, but she's sort of like openly wondering on air if, what's the way she put it, if maybe the voters are. are exhausted with Trump and ready to turn the page. So she's framing it not as her, but as she's concerned about the voters. So that's a little more weasily. But it's along the same lines.

Like it's interesting to see that. I mean, look, I don't, she, even less than Alex Jones, who he is a nut job, but he speaks from whatever there is where his heart should be. With her, who the hell knows, like what game she's playing with this. Again, I find her just terrifying, but she does seem in my mind to be like, I'm not sure she's doing some kind of sci-op thing. I think she can read the writing on the wall. And if he gets indicted, she wants to have somebody else to send people to right away. No, I think that's right. And also, I think it's sort of along those lines. She's also, she's hedging her bets. So if it's Trump, we know that if Trump is the nominee, she will be all in for Trump. And if Trump is not the nominee, then at least she can go to DeSantis or whoever it is and be like, yeah, I was talking, I was saying this back in 2022 that I thought voters might be ready for a change. So I think you're right. I think she's just playing the game, which is to her, that's all this is and that's all it'll ever be. So. I think psychologically, Laura Ingram is always a little bit more worried than a Tucker Carlson or even a Sean Hannity because she knows that when you're at Fox and you're a blonde woman, there are 15 other blonde women who are behind you to take your job. And there's not this, I mean, like I think of Sean Hannity or a Tucker Carlson, at least in a world, in a Fox world, I'm not sure this is true at a more mainstream media network.

though honestly, I really don't know because I don't work there, but there is a sense in which she is the most replaceable. And so she's probably the most paranoid and the most kind of able to be peeled off Trump. I think that's 100% correct. I think you're absolutely right. And yeah, I mean, Tucker Carlson knows he can basically become Alex Jones, which is basically what he's doing. And as long as people keep watching, which they are, he's fine. He's basically bulletproof. But I think you're right, she does not think she's bulletproof and probably correctly so, as you said. Right. I also think that Tucker Carlson is, and I don't know if this will always be true, but certainly right now he's in a place where he's more powerful than the Fox Machine.

Like if he wanted to go off and be Alex Jones, he probably could do it right now. That may not always be true, but that's why Lachlan Murdoch is so kind of cowtowing to him all the time is because he has the power. I don't think that's true with Sean Hannity. I think Sean Hannity is more of a function of Fox News the way of Bill O'Reilly is, or even maybe less so. Yeah, I guess, although Sean does have, I mean, I think his radio show is incredibly popular. The thing about guys, like, both Tucker and Sean have, like, they have their home studios built. So they can be out of there in a heartbeat and basically set up shop the next day. Whereas I do think you're absolutely right that Laura Ingraham is more sort of tied to Fox.

I don't think Laura Ingram going off on her own draws. I think the people who watched her will watch whoever replaces her rather than following her. Whereas I do think you're right. I think at Tucker Carlson, I mean, literally, he's got, where is it up in Maine? He's got that whole thing set up. And he could literally, if he decided to leave Fox or if Fox pissed him off or something, he could quit on a Friday. And on Monday, he would be up and running on the internet somewhere and probably get millions

and millions of views and advertisers and people. just paying money to subscribe to him. If Tucker Carlson leaves Fox News, he can get my pillow or my coffee grinds or my terrible mustache. That's black rifle coffee. Black rifle

coffee. Black label coffee, yeah. Talking like it's not brood in your house daily. Or you could move to Hungary. Jeet here is a national affairs correspondent for the Nation magazine and host of the Time of Monsters podcast. Welcome to new abnormal.

here. Oh, it's good to be here. I'm so happy to have you. Talk to me about such an interesting time with Liz Cheney and, I mean, just a really interesting. I want to know your opinion. This is my opinion. I know that Liz Cheney is not a leftist hero. I know that she is just like her dad, if not maybe worse, but I still do respect that she's like one of the four people in all of the Republican party to like say this, no, we're not doing this and then lose her job because of it. No, that's absolutely right. Yeah. I mean, and I don't think there's actually a lot of people like that, but there are a few like liberal people who are like, well, Liz Cheney should like run as a Democrat or whatever. And no, we don't want that. We actually want like a sane or at least a Republican party that plays within the rules of democracy and it's necessary to have more Republicans like Liz Cheney. And I think the big takeaway is that we're actually going to have fewer Liz Cheney's in the future.

that the kind of never Trump constituency that she was the champion and avatar of continues to lose ground in the Republican Party, that it is really a party of Trump. And I mean, Trump doesn't get all the candidates he wants. Some of the candidates he endorses don't win. But I think it's also the case that the people who go against Trump, they either lose or they very take an early retirement. And to do the math, where does that lead? Yeah. I mean, I think that's right.

And it's so interesting because, I mean, I do think that Trump's. Senate candidates all seem really, really bad. Yeah, and one can hope that they'll all lose. I mean, I think they're underperforming what they should. And if we're lucky, it's a little bit hit and miss because Ohio has unfortunately become a real red state. But if J.D. Vance loses their Dr. Oz, and I put doctor in quotes, Slovenia, who's the other one, Blake Masters? Yeah, in Arizona. Arizona.

These are very unusual, flaky, kind of weird candidates. And hopefully that they'll lose. and that might force a reckoning with the Republican Party. And with political parties, so much of it is in the primaries, right? Like, you have to want a primary to even have a chance of winning the general. And if the primary voters in the Republican Party say they want Dr. Oz and they don't want Cheney, then you're going to get more and more Dr. Oz's, even if they underperform in the general election. Because the thing is, in a two-party system, you're eventually going to win, right?

You're eventually, you know, you could put up the wackiest most demented candidates as we've seen. And like, if the star is in alignment, you're going to win. Which incidentally why I'm not a huge fan of some of the stuff that the Democratic consultants have been doing in terms of trying to boost the more wacky Republican candidates. I mean, it's a short term. It's going to help the Democrats this year in the short term. In the long term, I don't know. It's a very risky strategy. Do you want to put money towards the death of democracy?

Like, is that something you want? Yeah. But I mean, I mean, the larger point is it. It is really the Republicans. And I don't know. I mean, I don't want to emphasize that last point too much because it is the Republican primary voters. They like in general. They like these Trumpist candidates.

And they certainly don't like people who stand up with Trump. I mean, I think that that's the big takeaway for the whole Cheney saga. And I know a lot of people in the sort of centrist media, but also a lot of like Washington Democrats put a lot of faith in the never Trump stuff. They thought it was significant that there's opposition. But it was never that many people. And it's also a position that's poison. in the Republican Party.

And so I have to say, I mean, I really want people to wake up and realize there's no future in this never Trump thing. And then the only future is like trying to make sure Democrats win as much as possible. I mean, I think eventually if Republicans lose enough elections, then there's a chance. But that's where the energy has to. Yeah. I mean, I also wonder, part of why how Republicans got here is they didn't have a grown up in the room, right? There was no one who said, like, come on, guys.

Like, this is crazy. let's everybody needs to clear the field for I mean and again these are all neither of us like any of these candidates but I'm just saying there never was someone who said like it was like the only person who really cared about winning was Mitch McConnell and everyone else I mean I guess they cared about winning but they sort of allowed themselves to be dragged into this craziness I wonder if this third if they lose a third election because remember like Trump won but then he got creamed in the midterms got creamed in the 2020 and and now, or at least lost the 2020, and now you're in 2022. I have to wonder, like, on the third election, when they start to see that their candidates can win the primary, but not the general, if that starts to change hearts and minds. And again, we don't know. And it's anybody's guess. We don't know, but I mean, I think it will have some effect.

But it's going to take more than three elections. I think the question is, how do you get a sensible, moderate Republican Party, a sort of Dwight Eisenhower Republican Party? And you get Dwight Eisenhower by the Democrats winning. five presidential races in a row, right? Right. Right. If FDR wins four times and Harry Truman wins again, then the Republicans are going to think like,

okay, we're not going to like put up Ebenezer Scrooge as a candidate. We'll pick a nice friendly general that everybody likes. And who says that he won't cut Social Security? So the long-term path of American democracy is really like the Democrats have to keep trying to win. And if there's enough losses, yeah, I do think that you will get moderation. It's going to be a long, slow struggle. And in the meantime, I think we have to have clarity. One can we debate how much we should admire Cheney or not admire her.

I mean, I do think it's a personally courageous decision. And she knew she was putting her political future, like totally at risk. But I mean, I think the main thing to recognize is that the principles that Cheney stands for don't really have much of a future in the Republican Party. And I think the further thing I'll say about her is, I was interesting, the people who came out against Trump, They all tend to be people who give priority to national security, which like everyone does sort of rhetorically, but Which is ironic. I think that there's a lot of people who like they will say like America first, strong foreign policy or whatever.

But their real priority is domestic issues. They really care about trans issues. They really care about abortion. And so the degree with someone like Trump was endangering NATO or just like having a president that's so divisive and is attacking is such a goofball. He's so dangerous to warn the America's position in the world that I think that all sort of neoconservative cohort and realist foreign policy cohort were the ones who really came out against Trump, but they proved to be a small minority within the Republican Party. And for me, that's the main takeaway, that never Trumpism has no future within the

Republican Party. And that, oh, the only future of opposing Trump is with Democrats and whatever one can have all sorts of criticism of the Democratic Party, as I do, as I know you do. But I mean, like, that's the only path forward. Yeah, I think that's right. So one of my favorite things that Trump's people have said, and it was Jason Miller who first shopped this, said, by searching Mar-a-Lago, you have guaranteed that Trump is going to run again. He was not going to run again before, but now you've done it. Explain to me why they do this.

It's like the don't make me hit you. Yeah, I was about to just say exactly what you said, which is it's abuser logic, right? it's like, do what I say, or you're going to be in a world of pain. And I think that, I think like when it came to Trump, like people who have either been an abusive relationship or have seen abusive, toxic personalities in life, and know the dynamics and have escaped from it, are the ones who have had the most clarity about Trump. And it's absolutely the case that you cannot appease such people. You can't give in to them that this will only encourage them.

And we have to recognize these threats as what they are. This is just like just threats. And Trump's were doing a lot of threats. I mean, like, just like a nice FBI you got there. But at some level, you have to, like, not give in to threats. Even like, I mean, you see it in a more, among more centrist writers, some of whom I respect, but like in a more broad way, like, well, going after Trump is very divisive. And do we want to enrage half the country?

And it's like, at some level, like, you cannot make a decision like this from a position of fear. I mean, there are things to fear about that. There's genuine. I don't think there's anywhere near a civil war, but there are clearly people who support Trump who have been violent, can be violent. We have to be wary of that, but are you going to let that, like, government? That would be the same way, well, let's hand over New York City to the mafia, right? Like, they're going to kill us all. Like, dude, you can't think like that. That's just,

no, it's completely, it's completely strange. What do you think about, I mean, where do you see these right now, what's happening going on? Where do you see this sort of, where this run up to the midterm? We're in like the month one of the three months sort of jog to the midterm. terms in America? Yeah. Well, I mean, the polling numbers have actually been pretty good for the Democrats. I mean, like I especially considering it's a midterm and Biden's approval ratings are slightly better, but they're still not great. But I mean, I think there's been a couple of factors that really helped the Democrats. I mean, unfortunately, the end of Roe v. Wade is one of them is just like, really like it woke up a lot of people what the stakes are and more broadly some of these crackpot

candidates that have won the Republicans are also helping the Democrats. So I mean, I think that usually, like, it's all based on negative polarization. So the party that's in power will suffer because the other party wants to get back and to their base is energized. But I think the Democrat base is energized. I'll just imagine a small proviso, which is that some of this could be that Republicans are so angry. They're not picking up the phone and they're being like not represented enough. I don't know. I mean, I think there's been enough polls and they're good enough polls. There's clearly something happening there. And there's a real possibility that Democrats could expand in the Senate and even like hold the House. And if that happens, like I, and I really want to listen to understand this because it clarifies the issues of whether to vote or not. If that happens, if the Democrats can hold on to their trifecta for like two more years and expand in the Senate, then a lot of things open up. A lot of the policies that Biden had to sideline because of mansion and cinema, they reopened. And a lot of stuff, filibuster reform, voting rights act, codifying role into law, a lot of things open up.

So, yeah, I'm cautiously optimistic. I hesitate to even say that because superstitiously, one thinks like, this is going to jinx it, right? Like we're going to say, like, I think there's real reasons for hope. Actually, I think the Inflation Reduction Act, which is inadequate in some ways, is less than one would have wanted, has a lot of compromises. But still, the fact that they did that, it gives a lot of Democratic voters a sense of, well, my vote was worth it. You know, we actually, like, did something. And, you know, there's concrete results we're going to get in terms of, like, lower insulin prices. And so I honestly think like the Democrats are not in a much better position than they should be.

Like I think a sensible organized Republican Party could like have done well. In general, cautiously optimistic is what I would say. I mean, we know that Republicans are not represented in polls the way that they, the Democrats are, that there's a sort of skewing there a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. Although to give the sort of broader history of that, I think that's only true when Trump is on the ballot. that I think in 2016 and 2020, Republicans overperform the polls because Trump was on the ballot and Trump because of his celebrity status and who he is reaches voters that like pollsters

have a hard time finding, right? But in 2018, the Democrats overperform their poll numbers. And I think there were other recent-ish elections 2012 and 2014 where Democrats overperformed the polls. So I don't think we should take it as an iron law that Republicans will overperform their poll numbers. I mean, we don't know, right? Like, this is the, as Rumsfeld would say, the unknown unknown. We don't know which party is. The known unknown unknown. But we don't even know.

We don't know, like, which party it is or if they will be in over. Or for the polls are accurate. I mean, like, we literally, it's just a very rough guide. I think the thing with the last thing to say with the polls is it's hard to know in general, but the trend lines are very important. And the trend lines are all favoring the Democrats as the election season starts. The Democrats have been improving steadily. And I think that's all to the good.

And yeah, I mean, like I feel like it was really important that they were able to like reach that deal and like get at least something past to show their voters. We can do something. If you vote for us, we can make life a little bit better. I think that's important. You can run a little bit on, oh my God, these Republicans are scary. But that doesn't quite motivate people in the same way. I mean, if you have Republicans are scary and we can make life a little bit better, that's a good argument. Yeah, exactly.

Anything else you're watching right now? Well, I think the other thing is inflation, which is. there's been a long-running thing, and I think that's what has hurt Democrats and heard Biden. But if inflation continues to be going down as it is, and I just heard chicken prices are like now lower than they were pre-COVID. That's good. Like a chicken in every pot, as Herbert Hoover used to say. That's how you win elections or tofu in every pot as well, for our vegetarian listeners. That's right. Beyond meat in every pot.

That's right. If food prices and gasoline prices are going down, like that's going to make a big difference. And I think that's a good. I mean, I would also underscore it's just everything is so unpredictable. I mean, the Ukraine-Russian situation, Rameen, there's a lot of things going on in the world. But yeah, I think cautious optimism is on point right now. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. Thank you, Jead here. Thank you so much. Always a pleasure to be talking to you. It's so mutual. Christina Sanssoon Ramirez is executive director of NextGen America. I am super excited to have you. And I wanted first talk to me.

about how you got involved in this organization and how this sort of came about? Yeah, so I have spent the last 20 years building and leading some of Texas's biggest social justice and civil rights organizations. I spent 10 years leading an organization that raised wages and standards for mostly undocumented workers in the construction industry, who I say were my best teachers about how to make change when the odds are stacked against you. And then I founded another organization called Jolt focused on mobile. mobilizing young Latino voters in the wake of the 2016 election.

When I was six months pregnant, which was a really good time to start an organization. And then I was recruited to run for a statewide office in my state and came in third in this sort of 12-way primary dog fight. I was the progressive in the race. And then I was trying to figure what I was going to do next. And I was asked to apply to lead next gen, which is the country's largest organization mobilizing young voters. and I was fascinated by the scale and impact and rigor of the organization.

I have always believed that every time our country has made a great leap forward and been willing to tackle something that seemed impossible before, that it took the courage, imagination, and pushing of young people. And so I could think of no better place in this moment when we're facing a climate crisis, a crisis of grotesque income inequality, and some days we question if our democracy will survive, that there was perhaps no better place that I could be to make an impact for the future that I wanted to build for my community, my country, and my son. So explain to us what NextGen is. So as I said, NextGen is the country's largest organization that mobilizes young voters.

Last election, we helped get out one and nine young people that turned out to the polls. And we try and organize and mobilize young progressives to turn out to transform American politics on the issues that matter to young people. For us, it's not just about a party or a single politician. It's really getting candidates to respond to the needs of young people. And most young people are overwhelmingly progressive. And so we started out as an organization focused on our founder, Tom Steyer, wanted to tackle the climate crisis. And he decided the best way to do that was to invest in the power of young people

that understood the long-term consequences of inaction, unlike a lot of our congressional representatives that were, will probably a lot of them will be dead by the time that over the last 30 years that there was an action by Congress. And so since 2013 when we were founded, we've helped flip 27 House seats, seven Senate races, and mobilized millions of young people to the polls with, again, the ultimate goal of building a more progressive, inclusive vision for our country. One of the things that I was surprised to learn the other day was one of our guests. They said that Rush Limbaugh was one of the largest get out to vote. sort of conduits. I'm curious, and I had completely forgotten, but this is the first election without Rush Limbaugh telling his people to go vote. Is there a world in which Democrats can

counter that kind of fear and rage and the kind of secret sauce that those guys get used to get their people to turn out? When I think about how conservatives win and how progressives win, I think the ultra-right wins when they paint a vision of the past trying to take us backwards to supposedly the days of your. And then they use fear and division. And progressives win. We paint a vision of the future we can build together and it inspires people to believe that they can come together to solve the biggest problems. We did have that with Obama when he ran in 2008. And what we also have on our side. The ultra right wing has built an ecosystem, right, of independent news channels and also Fox News that is a megaphone to get out ideas that are even delusional, not based

in reality, but motivate people or fear. Our side actually has a huge base that we don't oftentimes tap into, and I think we're still learning to do that. This is something we did at NextGen last election is we ran the country's largest micro-influencer program because there are more young people that are progressives online that have huge macophones and that look at Gen Z for change, for example, a cohort of 500 content creators on social media that have a regular reach of half a billion people. They're organizing using their platforms to get young people out to vote and getting progressives out to vote. So there are ways we can do it. We just have to be smarter, more well organized, and also think long term about building up voices. And I think this is the other thing that we have to,

we have to invest in building up young, diverse, progressive voices. And some people need to understand that that's really critical to invest in versus trying to control the message that young people receive. So let's talk about that for a minute because you have a lot of these young influencers who you work with. And, I mean, we saw one of the really big success stories. I think of the last new cycle was Olivia, who just went in there. I think, do you want to give our listeners?

I mean, she was a guest here, but I still think, they might want a little refresher on what happened there. She's involved with NextGen. Yeah, so Olivia is part of Gen Z for Change as well, and she is from Texas. And she has used her social media platforms as organizing opportunities and really taken on fights with elected officials online and been able to draw them out. So when she was body shamed online by the congressional representative whose name escapes me for Florida. Mad Gates. Matt Gates, thank you.

I wish it had escaped me. Yes. But she used that as an opportunity to start organizing online for people to support abortion access. And she raised $2 million, I think, and it was like, what, 72 hours or something like that. And it inspired a lot of other young people as well. So there are, again, young people have these major megaphones. They are thoughtful, creative, funny, smart. There was also one of the other things that I think helped inspire Genzi for change,

if we all remember when Trump held his rally in Oklahoma a few years back. and all these young people on TikTok encouraged people to get tickets. And so we had the campaign manager for Trump saying there's a million people coming and 20,000 people showed up because it was all just young people organizing online blowing smoke up their asses. Can we just talk about Texas for a minute? I feel like Texas has this super interesting dynamic. And we have as liberals, we've had our hearts broken by Texas before. But I'm just curious what it's like right now there on the ground.

One, I think the failure that people, as Democrats often have, are progressives, is that they think demographics are destiny. And they are not, you have to invest in those populations to turn them out. You just can't hope that they turn out on their own. So Texas, while people think about our state as a state of mostly good old white cowboys, and there are many great good old white cowboys in our state, our state is actually a majority young, brown, and black. So we are the third youngest state.

Only Utah and Alaska are younger. Half of those 18 in our state are Latino. We have the largest black population of any state. And so the big demographic shifts are there and people look at that. But then there's been an underinvestment in that young diverse population that you have to grow and invest in over time. So Beto took in 2018 when he ran for US Senate 71% of the youth vote and helped drive up the youth vote to college campus tours.

He's doing that again. There is momentum to change Texas. That's why at NextGen, we decided you don't hire Texan and they don't force you to come to Texas. Right? So part of the reason, the reason I was really excited to come to next gen was to get them to invest in Texas because previously they hadn't been. And that if you change Texas by investing in young people of color over multiple cycles, you can change the political outcome and possibilities not just for an election cycle, but a generation. I think too many times we think just a candidate alone can change a state. We also have to invest in the ecosystem.

When we look at what Stacey Abrams and many others did in Georgia, investing in voter registration and voter turnout of communities of color got us a young Jewish senator, a black pastor of Ebenezer Church, and it's going to get us our first black female governor in the entire United States. That's what investing in grassroots organizing and voter registration and mobilization of communities of color wins. I wonder if you saw this polling yesterday about how. A large percentage of Latino voters are pro-choice. Did you see that? I didn't see it, but we did. I mean, I was shocked because I thought the Catholicism might, but it tracks with what's happened in Mexico and some other South American countries.

I was wondering if you talk about that. Yeah, I think that it's what's also really exciting is if you look at Argentina, Mexico, there's actually at the same time that we've been limiting and restricting the rights to abortion access. In these other countries, they're expanding abortion access. So Latinos have a nuanced view like pretty much every other community does on abortion access, but overwhelmingly the Latino community, including in places like my home state of Texas, are completely opposed to abortion restrictions outright bans. People understand that it is for many people a difficult decision and that no one knows the consequences or what you've been through and that you should be able to determine and decide that on your own. Also, I think also surprises other folks too is of young people. in this country, the folks that most identify as queer are Latinos. So it's actually one and four

young Latinos identify as queer in the United States. So I think those ideas of our community are also surprising a lot of people. And it is true, there are portions of the Latino electorate that are going to Republicans, but that's because Republicans are spending the time and money on speaking to them. Our community's voting power mostly lies with young people. So the most common age for a white American in this country is age 55. For an African American, it's 27. For Latino, it's 11. And we are overwhelmed.

The younger we are, we are overwhelmingly progressive. So to me, if people want to determine what's going to happen with the Latino vote, they need to be investing in the power of young Latinos. And I'll just last say, the person who's done a great job of that was Bernie Sanders. And he did get a generation of young Latinos to be long-term committed progressives. And we need to continue to see that level of investment into young, the young Latino population. Do you think that Beto has a shot? Yes. I think he does and also Rochelle Garza. That's actually the closest race in Texas is our Attorney General's race.

Ken Paxton, our Attorney General, has been indicted several times and been being investigated by the FBI and all kinds of things. So her race is actually the closest and then Beto's race is the second closest in this state. Republicans, especially our governor, like on abortion, on the shooting in the fact that they can't seem to keep the light on and the power on and the largest energy producing state in the country. It's very bad. This is what happens when you have a government that doesn't really care about governing for the people. And I think a lot of people are seeing that. So Beto does have a shot and people should contribute and support his race, but they also should support Rochelle Garza's race because that race is incredibly close. And I feel like she doesn't get enough attention. But that race also has

the possibility to transform the state. Talk to me about student debt. Because that is a big, I think that's sort of a big, complicated issue. Yeah, millions of young people that we were working within 2020 turned out and voted and they voted on the issue of student debt. Before there was the moratorium on student debt repayment, 40% of student debt borrowers were already not making regular payments and one in five were in default on their student loans. It really is a mortgage on your mind. A whole generation of young people feel like they can't afford to buy. at home and the regular payment they have instead of buying a home is student debt repayment. You know, I think as a country that we have to decide that our greatest asset is are our people.

And I remind people all the time, it's not just about canceling student debt. It's about the fact that as a country, if we want to be competitive in many, many other countries, especially our biggest competitive, more competitive countries, college is tuition-free. They see it as an investment in an asset to make them competitive. We used to think it was crazy in this country that we were going to have K through 12 public free education. And we decided to make that investment. And we need to decide, again, to do that for college because what a high school diploma was is what a college degree is today. And so for me, and for a lot of young people, it's a no-brainer that we should be making those transitions.

And I think it's an issue we still need to push on. Right. I think that's right. You were going to run for Senate. Do you think you might still do that at some point? I ran for Senate in Texas. I was recruited to run by some of our state's largest labor unions and progressive organizations. It was not on something I had thought of doing. I do love talking to people. I said I spent 10 years organizing construction workers and I loved always talking to people that had different viewpoints from me that had different experiences than me and getting people to see their common interests. My claim to fame was getting the white union guys to get along with undocumented construction workers and the Republican business owners to all work to. together. So I don't know if I'll run again, but it's not something I'm considering doing now, because when I think about what is the most impactful thing I can do right now, it's running next gen.

It's mobilizing young people. It's getting the opportunity to register hundreds of thousands of young people in Texas that won't just impact one race, but impact our entire state's future. Yeah, I think that's right. And it is interesting. I mean, Stacey Abrams really, you really did see that she was able to flip two Senate seats. Yeah. We were all like the candidates didn't do it, but Stacey Abrams did it. Right. I know.

The candidates did it too. They were great. We all were like, Stacey Abrams really did this along with like. And Latasha Brown, black voters matter. I mean, there were, it really was these organizations on the ground that, I mean, that's the thing like when you look at a state like Florida, that I have some. of my family who has worked in the state. And it's just a very, so much of winning these elections is really registering voters. And if you don't do that, it doesn't matter how rich your candidate is. I think Democrats are starting to see one, two things. One, demographics are not destiny.

Two, it's all about mobilizing your base and not just getting lost in the idea of the swing Republican voter. There's a few of them out there. There's just a lot more of the other voters. and they're actually more reliable when you spend the time and money talking to them. I think that's really true. Thank you so much for joining us. This was really interesting. Well, I really appreciate being here. Always happy to talk about my favorite topic,

which is how to mobilize young people to transform our democracy and country. Andy Levy. Molly Jongfest. We talked about this before the show. There were a lot of good options this week. And Dr. Oz was one of them. But as Jesse pointed out, we just did him. So we're giving him a pass today.

we can go cry in one of his 10 properties. But over in the great state of Utah, there was a girls sporting competition. And one girl won, and she apparently won pretty big. We don't know what sport it is, but it was a state competition. And so the parents of the girls who came in second and third lodged a complaint with the Utah High School Activities Association. And their complaint was that they didn't think the girl was cisgender. They basically thought that because she won. so big she must have been a transgendered woman. And the school had to investigate. And the quote here

from the representative is the school went back to kindergarten and she'd always been a female. So this is what we've come to now. And they won't tell us what sport or the school that the student is from, which is good. Like they shouldn't. Which is good. Yeah, because considering it lives of TikTok will be trying to get people to do something terrible to the school. Exactly. But they shouldn't have had to do this investigation in the first place. Like, that's the problem here. And these parents who can't accept that their darling Brittany or whatever name that doesn't show my age.

Yeah, Brittany doesn't show your age. Yeah. Wasn't the best at their sport in the state that someone could actually beat them. So they had to accuse the girl of the horror being transgendered. This is where we are. This is where we are now. This is going to happen more and more and more states are making this the thing to do. And the representative said that the association that they've gotten other complaints over the past years saying that this so-and-so female athlete doesn't look feminine enough. So yeah. And he said that they took every one of these complaints seriously and, quote, we followed up on all of those complaints with the school and the school system. So basically complaining that a girl doesn't look quote unquote feminine enough. is enough to now trigger an investigation that is taken seriously in the state of Utah. And for that, I say fuck to all those people.

Yeah, a hearty. Yes. A hell and hearty, fuck you. Hail and Hardy, fuck you. My fuck that guy is... Which I do want to know, by the way. Well, I'll just get to it. Is a certain venture capitalist who will not be named.

He has two particularly problematic. But you know what? good for him, man. You're talking about Peter Thiel, right? I can't say. Senate candidates, one is named J.D. Vance. The other is named Blakey. Who wants to get rid of Medicare? Privatized Social Security. A great plank if you're running in a state filled with elderly people. They love that. Just keep going, Blake. Nothing older people like more than having their source of income taken away. They love that. Two of the really the finest Trumpy Senate candidates, It's both funded by my man, the venture capitalist, who cannot be named.

He needs more money to get JD, former never-trumper over the finish line. Good luck to all of the people involved in this. Mitch McConnell has come to bail Peter Thiel's terrible Senate candidate out by pouring money into this JD-Vans race. I mean, look, better it goes there than somewhere else, right? I guess. I mean, it's interesting that Vance is losing in the polls to Tim Ryan at, I think, Jesse, you said earlier that it's just outside the margin of error. Just outside the margin. Yeah, that's actually a good sign. But who the hell knows with Ohio voters how that's going to go. So yeah, I mean, I guess it's good that they're having to throw this money into Ohio. But I don't know. I find it more interesting that they're spending the Senate leadership fund, this Mitch McConnell group, is spending $37 million in Georgia. And that's Herschel Walker. Good luck.

I don't think that'll do it, man. Wow, man. You're spending $37 million to try to elect aid. My favorite Herschel Walker ad is the video of him talking about the air. Yes. But my other favorite is his poor wife talking about him threatening her. Favorite is the wrong word. But that wasn't him.

Yeah, that was another personality, right? Maybe they can elect the personality that... That didn't threaten his wife with a gun. But yeah, no, anyway, you're right. Fuck all those guys. Fuck J.D. Vance. On that note, we'll wrap this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast. In future episodes, we'll be talking to smart folks from the Daily Beast and beyond

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