The Daily Beast Podcast - Mary Trump: If Donald Runs Again, This Will Be the Reason

Episode Date: November 16, 2021

In this episode of The New Abnormal, host Molly Jong-Fast asks Mary Trump what she thinks about Biden’s low approval ratings and what her uncle is brewing. She tells Molly that “there’s still hope” of Biden being re-elected, in spite of what the polls, or Republicans, say. But she has changed her mind regarding her uncle Donald’s chances of running for president again. Plus, David Pell, author of the NextDraft newsletter and the book Please Scream Inside Your Heart, shares a chilling prediction his dad, a Holocaust survivor, told him about Trump. Plus! Hamilton Nolan, labor reporter for In These Times, explains why the Democratic party’s fate is with the future of organized labor. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Molly Jong-Fast and welcome to The Daily Beast, The New Abnormal. I'm a left-wing pundit and an editor at large at The Daily Beast. We're here to have fun, sharp conversations with some of the smartest people in media, politics, and science that help make what's happening in the country and the world clearer. Our world has been turned up day down. On the new abnormal, we'll talk about the people who got us into this mess and figure out how to get ourselves out of it. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon. I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails.

Today we have an excellent show. Dave Pell, the author of the next draft newsletter, will talk to us about his new book, Please Scream Inside Your Heart, Breaking News and Nervous breakdowns in the year that wouldn't end. Then we'll talk to Hamilton Nolan, who's a labor reporter for In These Times, as well as Columbia Journalism Reviews Editor for the Washington Post.

But first, we have the author of the books Too Much and Never Enough, and the Reckoning, as well as the excellent news, newsletter, The Good In Us, Mary Trump. Welcome back, the new abnormal, frequent flyer and favorite friend of mine, Mary Trump. I feel like I should pay rent or something. Yeah, we'll charge you. I mean, I'm all for making money.

When we were talking before we started recording, you said, like, was last week worse in your mind than it was, and I feel really sort of flattened by last week. And since you are both a writer, a pundit, and also a mental health, professional. Tell me why not to feel depressed. Go. No pressure. Wow, you couldn't have given me this question. Had a ton. I mean, I know that's not what one does, but still, okay, I'm going to do my best here. Yes. The way I have to keep looking at it is this. There's still hope. Joe Biden is in office. The mainstream media and the Republicans are trying to make that a bad thing. You know, I'm just waiting for them to tell us how the fact that the White House got

10 million vaccines distributed last week is bad for Democrats. We still have time. We still have a chance to turn things around. And I think it's also important to have some perspective because for a lot of us, well, first of all, for a lot of us, a lot, much of what happened last week was not surprising and was all of a piece. And I'm thinking specifically about the Kyle Rittenhouse trial. But even though that is obviously part of a larger problem in America, it's a longstanding problem. It's a quite isolated thing that's happening right now. In other words, that trial is despicable as the proceedings have been is about, even though there's residents obviously and symbolism and the fallout will not be good if things goes the wrong way. It is about a small number of people. It just because of its

symbolism, it does have, it does weigh a lot, obviously. And, you know, we need to stay focused on all of the good things that are happening. And I know it's hard, but we cannot allow the mainstream media to muddy the water and somehow make it a bad thing that this groundbreaking legislation is being passed or that, you know, it's a problem with Congress when it's really the entirety of the Republican Party and two Democrats. It feels like the media narrative has like turned against Biden. And now, even though Biden is like anti-fascism, which one might think would be enough and has vaccinated so many people, but it's more like, no, you know, he's not going to win. His polling is bad. This da-da-da-da-da. Like I feel like we're really getting sold a pretty hardcore.

I mean, like, a good example is there was an article today or yesterday about how, like, will the vice, you know, about how the vice president is going to run against the, you know, against Biden. And I thought to myself, like, you know, the same people who are convinced that Trump will absolutely 100% win, a run and win probably are the same people who are like maybe Biden won't run. I mean, I just don't get it. Yeah, it's infuriating because, first of all, How could Kamala Harris possibly win when, one, she's the worst vice president who's ever vice president did? And two, she said the word the the with a French accent. I mean, just disqualified. So bad. Yes. And by the way, saying the word the as the is perfectly acceptable. Right. It's completely a non-story. It's actually worse than the Biden-Rolx controversy.

Right. The narrative is always, you know, anti-democratic. Democratic Party, but I think it things took a really dark turn after the egregious coverage of Afghanistan. You know, it seems to have worsened since then. And, you know, what gets completely left out of the narrative is the absolutely horrific hand Biden was dealt. Look what he came into office having to deal with. And it's, I guess it's somehow just not as interesting. to talk about success in the context of the most oppositionally defiant Republican Party in the context of these three intersecting crises we've been dealing with for over a year and a half now. And it's weird to me. Why is it more, why do the media think it's more interesting for people to read about the failures of the Democratic Party than,

it would be to read about, I don't know, creeping fascism and the fact that one of our political parties is determined to destroy the American experiment. Like, how is that, how is it, oh, Dembs and Diswrite more interesting than, oh, Republicans are fascist and they are trying to destroy the country? Well, I always think, and I mean, I get like flamed for this on Twitter all the time, but I do wonder how much of media is the media trying to make up. for their quote-unquote liberal bias, right? Like, they're constantly being hounded as having a liberal bias, so they try to appear more two-sides.

But I don't know that you can cover, I mean, I guess we're seeing how hard it is to cover a Republican Party sliding into fascism as a two-sides proposition. I mean, like, Yon, and I think this is important, his son tried to vote twice. He's 17 years old. Like every 17-year-old, I have a 17-year-old.

Like, they know they don't get to vote yet. And I think that's a really good example of, like, the core tenants of the Republican Party now are cheating. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, they know when they can vote. They know when they can drink legally. And these are not things that they suddenly wake up and discover when they're 18 or 21. So it is a completely decisive effort. not to look at what's going on and call a lie-a-lie. And I think you're right about the fear of being labeled as having a liberal bias. But then the question that comes to my mind is who is accusing them of this? Seriously, like who? And secondly, it's been going on so long that these are reporters. You think they would have sussed it out by now that that's not really the case. And if you do have liberal bias, then is this solution?

to have a bias in the other direction or to be neutral. And this is what I don't understand. If you're a reporter or a journalist, you need to be neutral as to the facts. And if the facts lead you to the conclusion that the Republican Party is a party of fascism, then that's just factual. You know, that doesn't mean that then you have to say, well, yeah, but the Democrats are a socialist, Marxist, Leninists, Communists, or whatever. And they seem not to understand that they also, if there is any bias at all, it needs to be towards democracy, because without democracy,

there is no free press. So what are they playing at exactly? And why is it so difficult for them to call a lie a lie? I mean, we've been dealing with that in an outsized way since November, well, probably since 2015. It took. How long did it take the Washington Post in New York Times to call lies, lies, and racism, racism? The fact that Yonkin got through that campaign without being called a racist is beyond my comprehension, considering that's pretty much all he was running on. It's like there's such a failure here, and it's hard to even, I mean, it's hard to even like parse what how it's happening, but we're watching it happen. And that's what's really scary. There's so much at stake here.

and people are like, well, inflation, poll numbers. Like, you know, when, if Democrats lose the House, like, we're going to have Joe Biden impeachment. We're going to have, you know, people are going to be, you know, you could get brought up there. I mean, for like being disloyal to the, you know, to your uncle. I mean, like, it's really scary what could happen. And it seems likely that it will. I mean, these Republicans are already threatening when we get the House back. We're going to, it's going to be payback.

Yeah. And again, what's it going to do? take during Obama's presidency and at the very beginning of Biden's, Mitch McConnell said very clearly, my goal is to make sure that they accomplish nothing and are one-term presidents. What else do we need to hear that these are people who are not operating in good faith? And I think a big part of the problem other than focusing on the wrong things, like inflation after this massive economic crisis and poll numbers. after the fact that, you know, we went from being 1% vaccinated to being 75% vaccinated

is the fact that the media keep asking the wrong fucking questions. It is not, is Donald going to run again? It's why is he being allowed to be considered a legitimate candidate? If you ask the, is he going to run again question? And again, I'm not saying that's an illegitimate question in the context of a larger conversation because we do have to worry about this because the media and the Republican Party have continued to make Donald relevant, but only to ask the question, is he going to run again, is to normalize him? So that is a huge problem. And honestly, this is why I don't talk about any missteps the Biden administration is making right now, because we don't need any more of that. We need to be focused on what they're accomplishing

and why we're in the horrific situation we're in, and it's not because of Joe Biden, it's because of Donald Trump and the Republican Party. Now, you know Donald Trump better than you'd like. That's fair. Yes, sadly. Now, obviously, you're right that there's been so many screw-ups that this guy is going to be allowed.

The guy who tried to overturn the election is, you know, might be allowed to run again. But do you think, as someone who knows, knows him that he will. My opinion about this is evolved, unlike Donald, because events on the ground have changed dramatically. Immediately after the 2020 election, I thought it was impossible because he got defeated so badly.

It was such a humiliating loss that I believed he would never put himself at the risk of suffering that kind of narcissistic injury again. But lo and behold, that the Republican Party decided to let him get away. not just get away with the big law, but they've helped him perpetuate it. And now it's taken hold to the point where I think 60 to 65 percent of Republicans think that the election wasn't legitimate and Joe Biden didn't actually win. Plus, we see all the voter suppression legislation being pushed through by Republican legislatures in every state in the union. And if they're able to do that in enough states, um, between, that in gerrymandering, the extreme gerrymandering we're seeing and the media piling on to the point where

we now have 51% of Americans saying they would vote for the generic Republican in a congressional race as opposed to 41%. So if, you know, with all of those things, if Donald gets to the point where he believes that if he ran, he couldn't lose. Why wouldn't he run? Why wouldn't he He's in so much trouble legally, criminally, and civilly that he needs the powers and protections of the Oval Office so seriously. Why wouldn't it? Yeah. I'm not saying he will, by the way. Sorry.

Because, you know, that's assuming all things being equal. That's not, you know, taking into account his health or lack thereof or being in prison, although he could probably run from prison and win. But that's a story for another time. He really is, it's funny because it's like he's our answer to Berlusconi, right? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. He's sort of not as intellectual, if that's possible. I just, sorry, you used that word in conjunction with Donald and I blank for a second. Let's talk about the newsletter a little.

Well, first of all, I want to talk about your newsletter, which is absolutely extraordinary. Oh, thank you. So everybody absolutely needs to subscribe. Okay, now tell us. about your newsletter. It's called The Good and Us and it's not meant to be sappy by any stretch of the imagination. I wanted to call it that because on the one hand, things are very difficult for all of us right now. And we need to hang on to the good in us because the times are so challenging, but also because what Donald is quite adept at, and this is the skills he got from my grandfather,

is turning the good in us against us. You know, I grew up in a family where kindness was considered weakness and cruelty was considered a legitimate strategy to get what you wanted. And now I live in a country where those things are true for the entirety of the Republican Party. And the danger is that, you know, that will not only demoralize us, but that will push us to the point where, we decide the only way we can win is if we begin to use their tactics and we become like them. And if that happens, we lose anywhere.

So, you know, my goal with the newsletter is to help people, you know, look things squarely in the face. You know, we need to be really clear about where we are, how we got here, what to do about it. But recognize that the good things, the empathy, the kindness, the compassion, the change, the generosity that a lot of us have, and there are more of us than there are them, is what makes the fight worth fighting. And I also, I try wherever possible to be funny because otherwise, you know, shoot me. Well, don't shoot me. Exactly. Yeah, but yeah, I know what you mean. That's a really good point. Well, I'm very excited. It's called the good or not. Mary Trump. Thank you so much. I hope you'll come back soon. All right. Thanks, guys. It was great to be here as always.

Hey folks, if you haven't heard every single week we do a special bonus episode for Beast Inside, the Daily Beast membership program. Sometimes we interview senators like Corey Booker or the folks who explain what's happening behind the scenes in media like Jim Acosta or Soladadad O'Brien. Sometimes we just have fun and talk to our favorite comedians and actors like Busy Phillips or Billy Eichner. And sometimes we just have friends around to analyze what's happening in the news. You can get all of our episodes in your favorite podcast app of choice by becoming a Beast Inside member where you'll see. support The Beast's fearless journalism, as well as getting full access to podcasts and articles. To become a member, head to New Abnormal.com. That's New Abnormal.com. Dave Pell is the author of the

Next Draft Newsletter, as well as the new book, Please Scream Inside Your Heart. Welcome to the New Abnormal, Dave Pell. Oh, thanks so much for having me. And welcome to the world of newsletters. I've been reading your new newsletter, and it's pretty awesome. Oh, thank you. You're doing well for a newbie. You created the genre. I am old enough to have done that. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the Romans created the newsletter, genre. I researched it recently, but maybe in the modern genre, I was probably pretty early. How did you get into that world? Oh, man, I started so early, you know, in the first internet boom, I was an angel investor and building some sites and all that kind of stuff that we were all doing out on the West Coast. But my main passion has always been writing. So I decided to

sort of write a newsletter that's like next draft is now, but next draft is all news. Back then, it was called Dave Anetics, and it was just tech news only, the top 10 tech stories. And it went out to all the companies that I either advised or worked with or invested in. A couple people wrote about it in local press, and it sort of got pretty big. It probably had 50,000 people among internet professionals. And I think they were only about 50,500 internet professionals. Right. I was going to say, what year is this we're talking about?

This is like late 90s, probably, mid to late 90s. And then when 2000 hit, I was sort of writing an obituary column every day. So I said, maybe I need a topic change. Let's talk about the book first. Yeah, so I've been sort of spending the last couple decades of my life writing about the news and sort of going out into the tsunami of news on the internet and shaping it into a modern day column where I share the top 10 most fascinating stories of the day from my perspective with my take and then I link to the full story for people who want to read the whole story.

This was sort of an outgrowth of my childhood where I'm the son of two Holocaust surviving parents. And we obsessed over news, especially my dad and I, that was sort of like where other kids and their dads might throw baseball back and forth. We'd sort of throw stories back and forth. And it was an area where we bonded probably because it was a key interest of his. And my dad is from a generation where the dad's interest is what drives most of the conversations. And also because. Because, you know, we were looking maybe to repress some things we didn't want to talk about, like, the pain of my parents' childhood or, you know, me not wanting to talk to my dad about what I was doing with all this internet garbage instead of going into real estate. So we really focused on news, and it was like a key topic of conversation. And through that period, I really learned to read between the lines, especially when it came to international stories or stories that America has suffered recently, like slides towards authoritarianism, where my dad had seen. seen it all and experienced it all as a child. So he really taught me how to read between the lines

and see what was really going on in the news. So when 2020 hit, I thought, you know, I think it was about March of 2020 right after everything started getting closed and canceled. I thought, I've wanted to write a book for a long time, but every time I come up with an idea, my wife, Gina would say, no, that's not it or no, you're not the person to do that. But one night around three in the morning early in the pandemic, I said, I woke her up and I said, hey, I think I've got it. I should use what I've been doing for the last 20 years and next draft and try to add some context to the chaos of this crazy year where everybody's becoming a news addict like I am. Yeah.

And she said, yeah, that's it. So I sort of took that idea of adding context to things and putting it in an order and also trying to add humor so there's some sugar with the medicine because, of course, it was a painful crazy year. And also adding the messages that my dad was telling me throughout Trump's era, but especially in 2020, and I felt like, man, I have to get these messages out because it's not coming from, you know, somebody you could call a liberal snowflake. It's like a full-fledged Nazi fighting hero who's been there and done that. Jesse and I have done a lot of interviews recently where people have said, like, it's later than you think the slide towards authoritarianism is real. Like, I feel like everything just got a lot darker. pretty recently, and I'm not entirely sure why.

Yeah, I think it did get darker recently. I think the reason it feels that way is because Trump is gone, and we see that his enablers are carrying on this message, and we're sort of post-Trump-Trumpism, and that's about keeping people from voting, keeping up with the big lie, and putting basically personal power over all else, including country. I have to admit that when my dad,

first started telling me certain things about this, you know, maybe 2015 when Trump was first starting to catch on. I thought he was maybe exaggerating a little bit because it just seemed a bit extreme. But even in 2015, my dad, and he was just a tiny bit of background. I mean, he was one of the only two people from one of his ghettos to survive. he escaped into the Polish forest in winter and survived there for four or five months alone getting through the night by sleeping on top of these giant bread ovens they had in the forest. He eventually got a gun.

That enabled him to join the partisans. When he was with them, he got into the train blowing up business. He lost all of his family. He survived through violence, and he's anything but a liberal snowflake. I don't even think he was a Democrat for most of his life. When Trump first started running, he kept telling me, you know, David, I really think that Trump sounds a lot like Hitler to me.

And I'll tell you, everybody laughed at Hitler when I was a kid also in pre-World War II Europe. And so I started getting nervous then. But I really got nervous in 2020 when he was sort of locked in like we all were by quarantine. But for him, you know, the days of your life when you're 96 are ticking. and he was just sort of stuck alone in his house, no exercise, no work, and just alone with Wolf Blitzer 24 hours a day. And he became pretty obsessed like we all did, but his warnings just kept coming true,

and he kept telling me, Trump is not going to leave the White House willingly. It doesn't matter who's winning the election. People in America don't understand how these things work. I've seen it. And one day, one of the last lunches we had, right before the pandemic hit, and this is really a,

If there's anything I want people to take from my book or why I wrote it, this is it. We were walking to a restaurant for lunch and it was a rainy day. And for about the 50th time, my dad said, I don't understand why people aren't out in the streets. And I said, you know, I think people in today's America are worried about this stuff that you're talking about, but they just don't think it could ever happen here. And he paused and he looked at me and he said, David, do you think when I was a kid, we ever thought it could happen there? And when he said that, I said, man, I have to share this message. And I'm probably one of the few people who believes this, but I really think the slide towards authoritarianism that we're seeing in Europe and now America

has a lot to do with the fact that the last few Holocaust survivors, the people who have been there and seen it and know what it is that they're looking at, are dying off. And the ones that are alive are really in no position to go in a public forum and warn people. So I really wanted to take that message from my dad and say, you know, the book is funny. The book is totally fun. It's a roller coaster ride. But in different spots throughout it, I have these warnings from him.

And I really hope that they get through to people because he's better. He was better in every way than me. But the one thing I can do a little better than he could do is communicate and spread a message. So I'm sort of trying to channel his message in this book. That's both beautiful and also, oh, we're so deprecate. Jesse, how depressed are you? Literally, I'm watching my life flash before my eyes. Right. I don't know that I could, like, survive in the forest by myself.

I second that, Molly. I don't think you can survive in a forest by yourself. I might be okay. I'm struck by a lot of stuff that's happening with the Republican Party right now. One of the things that I think is really interesting, and I want you to weigh in on because you have this really interesting background. You know Internet for a long time. Republicans are really mad at businesses. And this strikes me as a huge shift. And I'm curious to know, like, you must see this with the Internet regulation stuff, and I'm curious to know what your thoughts on that are.

Yeah, I mean, it's such an interesting moment at Internet regulation because both parties are furious at the platforms, but for entirely different reasons. One side wants to use them as a foil pretending that they're quelling free speech, even though every story that's in the top 20 on all the platforms is their message. And the other side is worried about what's happening to democracy. I think that there's a sort of irony in the whole sort of Facebook scandal that's going on right now. We sort of feel so comfortable blaming Facebook, but we're not pulling back and saying, yes, the platform allows too much, but what about the ne'er-doers or evil-doers

who are actually manipulating that platform for evil? That's one thing I find pretty interesting. And another thing I find interesting about it is that the media is really attacking Facebook right now. But some of the things they're attacking them for driving engagement, wanting more extreme stories that are more click baity to do better and keep you coming back, are the same things the media tries to do with news notifications and covering the more extreme, right? They cover ivermectin a lot more than they cover needle phobia, right? because one is funny and one gets a lot of clicks and one makes us hate each other more. So, you know, I think there's just so many tools that are being used that make us hate each other. And that's just such a big problem.

And one thing, a friend of mine is a shrink. And he always tells me about that Freud called something, the narcissism of small differences. And what he meant is that we're much more likely to become aggressive and attack people who are very much like us but have a slight difference than we are. to attack the people who truly oppose us. And if there's one problem I see in the Democratic Party today and the way they're reacting to both the platforms and the GOP movement,

is that we're fighting amongst ourselves about these small triggering events instead of locking arms and fighting against the cannonballs that are being fired at us from the other side. And I just think that's a big waste of time right now. I mean, are you for tech regulation? And if so, what would it be?

What would it look like? Well, we've certainly had enough time to know that self-regulation is not going to work. But I think it's going to be incredibly tricky to get valuable regulation when you have the both sides, even though they agree there should be regulation, they want it for such different reasons. And I think that we need it and it will be somewhat effective. But the problem is ultimately with any regulation is that right now in tech and most of America, American society. We keep score, you know, and what a person we dislike called, you know, the winning. And when it comes to tech, the winning is on the NASDAQ and the New York Stock Exchange. And throughout all of this so-called scandal and these dark days for Facebook, their stock hasn't

been dented one bit. So until that happens, I'm a little bit worried about how much good a regulation can do. And I also think people really need to keep their eye on the ball that is as disappointed. pointed as I am in how Mark Zuckerberg has decided to handle the threat to democracy and the spread of disinformation, it doesn't compare at all to a Fox News or a Newsmax or to the hundreds of media operatives who are using that platform and other platforms to spread misinformation for power and self-gain. It's so much of a much bigger issue. If Fox News went away tomorrow, it would make a much bigger difference than if Facebook went a way tomorrow. I'm not sure I agree with you because think about all of the Facebook content.

You know, they're churning out stuff. You're on there and you're seeing sites that make Fox News look like the Wall Street Journal. I mean, like, you know, right side broadcasting and MAGA news, one, two, three. And I mean, those things are coming up on Facebook and you have people who are getting their news from Facebook who are signing on and thinking they're getting news. And they're really getting, you know, anti-vax, anti-science. I mean, I say this is someone who, like, really does believe that tech can, if it wants to make the world better. I mean, I'm married to a VC. So, like, I mean, I'm, you know, I'm not at all an anti-capitalist, but it does strike me that there's evidence that when Facebook goes into a place, vaccination levels go, you know,

into a new country, vaccination levels go down. So, like, clearly, Facebook has a kind of. of power that even though Fox News, you know, Fox News isn't everywhere. Right. I definitely don't want to downplay the power of the platform and how disappointing. It is not only what Facebook's done, but tech in general. I'm also an angel investor and have been since, you know, the earliest days of the first boom. And I tell people all the time, what exists is exactly the opposite of what we thought we were building. Yes, we were into the money potential. And yes, we were into the thrill of saying, hey, I can build something and a million people might see it someday. That was, you know, a powerful,

intoxicating drink to have at that time. But we were also thinking, hey, now that there's going to be transparency, it's going to be so much harder for dictators to get away with it. And what we've seen is the opposite, that people see what's happening and they don't necessarily care what's happening. Well, also, they're not seeing really what's happening. They're seeing a version of what's happening. Right. Exactly. People distort that version and control the message. And, you know, for me, if I had to think, think of the biggest problem with Facebook, honestly, is that it's just too big. Yes, I hope Zuckerberg makes better decisions. And if I had the chance to sit down with him, I'd argue why he should.

But the big problem is that an unelected boy king has this kind of power over global democracy. And that's a dangerous situation to be in. But it really is ironic that all the things we thought would get better got diametrically worse. And there's probably a lesson there that I think liberals in general underestimate. And by liberals, I mean in favor of liberal democracy. Democracy, yeah. I mean, you don't see a tech solution here for this tech problem? I mean, I think if there was the right regulation, it could definitely make a dent. If there was some kind of punishment for allowing this stuff to spread willy-nilly and maybe even to spread knowingly spread dangerous false information. But what I'd really like to see is a more, a broader, more global movement in America where we start to reward companies that do something other than. just make decisions that only make money. And what I mean by that is that one of the biggest

areas of investing right now, if you take crypto and Web 3.0 stuff out of the equation, the hottest area of investing right now for VCs is world positive stuff. And of course, they're doing it because they want to make money as we shift to solar and the governments put more money into alternative sources of fuel. That's a situation where companies and founders are being rewarded for doing something positive. And the market is just all. all about perceptions and supply and demand. It's not about reality, right? Rivian is not really worth more than Ford and GM right now, but the stock price says it's worth more. Right, and Tesla too. Right. Tesla is not worth more than those companies either, even though it's massive, right? But what if we

decided somehow as a culture that we're going to also reward decent behavior by companies? Your broker or advisors or people spreading the word on Twitter and other social platforms said, hey, Twitter made a decision to ban this hate speech. I'm buying Twitter stock today. I sold Facebook a long time ago because of the way that they were treating the democracy issue. If Mark Zuckerberg came out tomorrow and said, here's the 10 things we're legitimately doing to solve this problem, I'm back in. Right. But you wouldn't ever trust him at this point. Yeah, right. Well, with him specific, It would have to be some of the other whistleblowers coming forward and saying, you know, this is it also from their perspective. Yeah, I mean, that's a really good point. And I think that that is, I mean, I guess that's the hope. We saw with the voting stuff that some companies, I mean, companies don't like coups. That's where they draw the line, it seems like. But everything else they're okay with.

Yeah. I mean, America didn't used to like coups either, but look at how we've come around. Yeah. Look, companies love to brand themselves as being on the right side of things, right? We saw this during the Black Lives Matter movement. We see this during some voting issues. You know, they come out in favor of things and they spend millions and billions of dollars to brand themselves on the side of the issue that people feel good about, even if behind the scenes are not necessarily doing what we hope they do.

But I'd just like to see a situation where companies feel motivated to brand themselves on the side of democracy. I mean, they have as much interest as we do and keeping this thing going. It's been a pretty good run here. And keeping people from voting is not a good way to keep capitalism going. Keeping people spreading misinformation is not a good way to keep it going. And certainly, the one thing we should all be able to agree on from a financial perspective is that this vaccine slowdown is hurting every single business in America, except for a handful of pandemic-only businesses.

So it's in everybody's interest to stop some of the lies. So maybe we can just start with that one about vaccines as a starting point to get people on the right side of issues. Yeah, that's really good and interesting. I'm really glad to have you. I hope you'll come back soon. Thanks, Dave, pal. I was great being here. And thanks a lot for having me.

Hamilton Nolan is a labor reporter for In These Times, as well as Columbia Journalism Reviews editor for The Washington Post. Welcome to the new abnormal Hamilton Nolan. Hey, thanks for having me. We're really excited to have you. And the first thing I want to talk to you about was a piece you wrote last week where you talked about what is happening on the ground in America. Because it strikes me that that is actually really important. Yeah. Not to find a point on it.

I mean, yeah, my piece last week was basically just about how Democrats are. inevitably fallen into the trap of culture wars and also just how bullshit the current crop of culture wars are. I mean, it's, it's, it's pretty important in cases like this to not fall into the trap of acting like these are actual issues, first of all. It's not about sitting around and saying we're going to have a debate over cancel culture or the teaching of critical race theory does or doesn't happen. I mean, these aren't real issues. Right. And partly it was about how Democrats need to not step on their own toes and turn these things into the leading issues. And the next thing you know is 2024. And these are like half the presidential debate.

Yeah. You know, I'm glad that you talked about that because I've been thinking a lot about it and trying to figure out why it is that Democrats keep getting stuck. Like, I don't know if you've, if you feel this way, but like, I feel like over the last two or three weeks, like, the mainstream media has really turned on Biden. Now, you know, is it the inflation? Is it the polling? But it just strikes me that, like, all of a sudden, he's gone from, like, by all metrics, he's been pretty effective, right? He got the vaccines going. He passed a legislation, you know, past infrastructure. You can have qualms with him for sure. But it feels like the tone has shifted. Yeah. I mean, there's a process, you know, that that you can see happen. where the Republican Party and right-wing media will advance bad faith critiques. And those bad faith critiques will get some traction among voters, you know, first of all, among the Republican base and then expanding. And then the mainstream media sort of starts to cover those things as they creep into the electorate.

And then next thing, you know, those things have been cemented as real things. And, you know, Biden, I mean, I think you're right. I think Biden is doing, he's doing better than I thought he would do, for sure. So I have to give him credit for that. And, you know, to be completely fair, like the bad things happening right now are not Joe Biden's fault. They're the fault of the Republican Party plus a few assholes in Congress. And, you know, you're up against math. Yeah.

It is interesting. So now you specialize in labor. Why is there a labor shortage? The answer is there's not a labor shortage. I mean, you know, five, four million people didn't just disappear off the face of the earth. You know, 4.4 million people quit their jobs. But those people obviously don't disappear. We don't have less people than we have or less workers. I mean, there's a shortage of decent jobs. That's that's what's striving, what gets reported as a labor shortage. I mean, obviously there's not there's not any fewer people than there were before the pandemic. I mean, people. I mean, people. people have been through this kind of incredibly powerful experience over the past year and a half of, you know, I always say like as a labor reporter, you know, for the past, for the past year and a half during the pandemic, there was basically two stories. And, you know, one story was, I've been laid off and I'm in a crisis. And the other story was, I have to keep working and I'm in a crisis because, you know, I'm risking my life.

And so both sides of that, I mean, no matter where you were, and obviously it was very much like a two-tier, a two-tier crisis in that a big chunk of Americans came through just fine or even better, especially if you had money in stock market. But working people, no matter which side of that you were on, you've really been through a pretty powerful and affecting experience. And what we're seeing is a lot of people coming out the other side of this pandemic saying, you know what, this isn't worth it. I mean, people were given a very real demonstration of the fact that their job didn't really care if they lived or died. Even on a more mundane level than that, you know, everybody who was a quote unquote front line worker who was getting celebrated left and right by politicians and whatnot can look at their paycheck and see, you know, I didn't get any lasting gains out of that. I didn't get a living wage career out of risking my life for a year to keep this country running. And so I think those experiences on a massive nationwide scale have driven a lot of people to quit, have driven a lot of people to seek better jobs, to seek higher wages, and, you know, also have driven people to go on strike. And it's spinning off a lot of, or, you know, at least abnormally high for recent years level of strikes. And I think all those things are kind of tied together. Do you think that immigration plays a role here because we're at record low immigration.

That's probably a good question for an economist. I mean, there's probably a quantitative answer to that. And I'm sure, yes, you know, I'm sure that is a factor because those are people coming in taking low-wage jobs. And now those low-wage jobs are the jobs that are having the hardest time being filled. I mean, so the, you know, the effect of it is actually great for the lower income part of the working class, you know. And the question long-term, I think, is going to be, is this going to be, is this going to be? be a time when workers get gains and keep them? Or is this going to be a very temporary passing kind of thing where, you know, places will raise their wages up to 15 bucks. But as soon as the economy evens back out, we're going right back to where it were. It is interesting to me that you can

have these discussions about the labor shortage and, you know, why is there inflation and not put it to get? Like, one of the reasons there's inflation is because people are being paid more which is good. Well, like, you know, it kind of goes to like, how do people look at the economy? And I feel like this is kind of a sickness in America. And, like, you know, the economy is not a real thing. I mean, the economy is just a construct that we make up, right? It's like the way to look at the economy is, you know, it's a bunch of human beings.

And so the important thing when you talk about the economy is like, what is this doing for people's lives, you know? Is this helping people to survive? and to thrive and flourish and live their best lives. Like, that's really the point of the economy. But in America, a lot of the ways that we talk about the economy and that the media covers the economy and definitely that a lot of politicians look at the economy

is that the economy is like this God to be served by all of us. And humanity must bow down in the face of economic numbers. And it's a very kind of backwards way of looking at things. I've come from my grandfather. I was a communist who, like, believed so. much in labor unions and the importance of collective bargaining. Do you think that there's going to be a return to that? You know, I hope so. I mean, you know, I'm in a union. I cover unions as a reporter, and I'm also in a union and I work in my own union and try to help people organize. So, I mean,

I believe in the labor movement. You know, I guess I can give you a personal answer and a reporter answer. A reporter answer is I haven't seen any actual plan from the labor movement as a whole, meaning like the major institutions in the labor movement, the biggest unions in America, the AFLCIO. They do not actually have a plan to organize millions and millions of new workers, which is what needs to happen to resurrect, you know, the labor movement, which is something we all talk about constantly. You know, the labor movement and the big unions are very splintered. There's not a lot of central planning and organization, and there's not a lot of resources or enough resources being deployed to organize on the kind of scale that it would take to really resurrect the union numbers that we saw,

you know, one, two, three generations ago when unions were like really, really powerful in America. And so as a reporter, I'm not completely optimistic that. And I think it's sad because, you know, we're definitely in a period of opportunity right now. And when you look at public opinion polls, unions are very popular. And most working people say they would join a union if they could, you know. So you look at that and you're like, wow, only 10% of the people today are union members. and there's another 50 to 100 million people who say that they, you know, would be union members. And what's the plan to get them into unions? That's the real stumbling block.

But, you know, that said, I do think that as somebody who believes in a labor movement, I just think the labor movement is really the best tool to solve some of the biggest underlying problems that this country has. I mean, inequality has been eaten America up since the Reagan era. You know, we're going on a half century now of rising inequality, the rich getting richer, wage stagnation for everybody else. And there's only two ways to deal with that. One way is the government deals with it, and they haven't. And there's not a reason to think they will necessarily. And the other way is workers get more bargaining power.

and take back their share of the pie. And the way to do that is through collective bargaining and unions. And so, you know, I think that the labor movement has to be revived. Because if it's not, we're looking at a really dark future. You know, I hope that the Democratic Party in particular comes to understand how tied up its own fate is with the future of organized labor. That's a good point. All right.

Now I'm more depressed. Can you just expand on that for Democrats tied to the unions? Because it's true. I think the Democratic Party sees unions as a special interest group. And they say, you know, we're your friends and Republicans hate you, so give us money. And that's pretty much how it's gone. And union members haven't gotten a lot out of that for many years. No, it's true.

But I think the more, like, interesting way to look at it is when people go through the process of joining a union, you know, and I've seen this many, many times. myself, and I think you talk to anybody else who's in the labor movement and they'll say the same thing. You know, you take regular people and you put them through the process of organizing and coming together with their coworkers and fighting against the boss and winning a contract for themselves and seeing their life improve. And going through that process changes people, you know, because in a lot of cases it's the first time anybody's ever really participated in an actual democratic process in their whole life. You know, there's, you can grow up in America and never really be involved in any kind of actual democratic process. And then you go through this process of organizing

and join the labor movement and it turns people onto the fact that like politics doesn't begin and end with elections and watching CNN. You know, politics is something that you can do in your own life. You can build power in your own life without running to ask a politician for it. And so it really like, it radicalizes people in a way, you know, and not in a political party way necessarily, but in a way of allowing them to see that there is a path to direct power for regular people. And so I think that the more people go through that. And if you could organize people at the scale of millions, which we really need to do, You change people, and you change the electorate so that the actual electorate changes and people understand the benefits of democracy in a way that they don't, you know, from watching cable news. Yeah. Thank you so much, Hamilton, Nolan. Please come back.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me. What's crazier than QAnon, more outlandish than Pizza Gate, and scarier than a Mexican getaway with Ted Cruz? The answer is what the American right wing has planned next. Be one of the first to listen to Fever Dreams, the new podcast from The Daily Beast, tracking the conspiracy slingers, orange acolytes, and straight-up grifters pushing to retake power.

Every Wednesday hosts Swin Subisang and Will Summer, checking in on the movement of the radical right. Head to the DailyBeast.com slash podcasts or your favorite podcast player to catch the first episode and get subscribed. That's Fever Dreams, which you can subscribe to wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Jesse Cannon.

Hi, Molly Jungfest. What's going on today? Oh, just living the dream, fighting with my producer. Perhaps you've heard of it. I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, exactly. Me neither. Who is your fuck that guy? Oh, I'm so happy I get to go first. I'm going to change it up a little bit.

I feel like this is a good thing, but it's like one we've been waiting for for so long. Alex Jones has lost his lawsuit with the Sandy Hook family. for saying that their children were crisis actors when they were murdered. And I think this is a great thing because this should put fear into all these assholes who make up flat out lies every day. And I hope this is a precedent for it. You know, obviously working at a news site, it's a little worrisome when you get sued. But when you make up things out a whole cloth and you are the head of the human centipede

that does this, you deserve it. And this is really good justice. and I am very happy about this, and I hope it runs him out of business and makes him even more miserable than he already is. And for that, I say, fuck you, Alex Jones. Personally, yes, I agree. Alex Jones is a human excrement,

and I'm happy to see him sued into oblivion. But you do really see with Alex Jones the de-platforming works, you know? Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. He is literally, like, the top picture of the essay on that. Yeah. But my fuck that guy today, is a man who needs no introduction,

the recipient of billions of dollars of government subsidies. He is Mr. Elon Mush. And what's interesting about Mush is that it was a Bernie Sanders tweet that got him hysterical. Bernie Sanders said, we must demand that the extremely wealthy pay their fair share, period. Again, he didn't tag Elon Mush. He didn't say Elon Mush is terrible.

Bernie didn't target him, but Elon was so sensitive and so triggered that he immediately tweeted, I keep forgetting that you're still alive. Now, first of all, it's disgusting and just a shitty thing to say to someone who's older. But second of all, obviously not, right? because the man, like, clearly Elon has a real fucking resentment towards Bernie Sanders, which, you know, it's funny because it's like I wrote about this last week about how AOC, these conservative men are like obsessed with AOC and they love to target her. You really see here that here's an oligarch who's really obsessed with a Democratic politician

in a way that is pretty intriguing and also a pretty good case for the effectiveness of Bernie Sanders. Look, Elon from a white South African grew up during apartheid. His parents had a diamond mine. I mean, this is not maybe not the social justice hero that just because he makes electronic cars we think of. But he gets a hearty fuck you from me. Sorry, it was an emerald's mind. It was not a diamond mine. It was an emerald mind.

Yes, yes. Yes. His little fam boys have encouraged him to shitpost and to oblivion. and he gets off on the cheers for this. And, you know, it's a funny thing because he's the only billionaire I've ever heard say that he thinks people are going to rise up against him for this. I think it's so funny, this whole paying taxes thing now and that he stood this higher garden because he actually does seem to be the one that fears people are coming for him,

which is in line with his personality. He was one of the first people to express really big concerns about AI, and he has a lot of fears. He also just sucks. I mean, like, fuck you, man. You have billions of dollars just pay your goddamn taxes. You know what was sad, though, Malia? I learned last week, though, that he executive produced one of my favorite movies of all time.

Thank you for not smoking. Or thank you for smoking. I mean, I'm sorry. Yeah, it was really heartbreaking for me. On that note, we'll wrap this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast. In future episodes, we'll be talking to smart folks from the Daily Beast and beyond from media, culture, politics and science. will help us understand what's happening to our country and the world. We hope you'll subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app and share the show on social media.

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