The Daily Beast Podcast - Melania Trump: ‘What Does My Body My Choice Really Mean?’

Episode Date: October 6, 2024

The New Abnormal hosts flame Melania Trump over her defense of abortion. Plus! ProPublica investigative reporter Ava Kofman and Amanda Tyler, executive director of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty (BJC) in Washington, D.C., take listeners on an in-depth look at the rise of Christian nationalism in the United States and its effect on the right-wing. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy and current Campbell News conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Kedden, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. Welcome back to another bonus episode of the new abnormal, and we thank you so much for being here.

ProPublica investigative reporter, Ava Kaufman, and executive director of Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty Amanda Tyler, joined Danielle for an in-depth look at the rise in Christian nationalism in the United States and its effect on the right wing. But first, let's have some fun. Are you guys ready to listen to some clips? Clips. Clips. It's almost like you knew I was resting all week, just compiling these to find the worst shit of all time. You have had an incredibly restful week, Jesse.

Yeah, that's what has happening. Justin. Melania would like us all to know where she stands on the issues in this election. So we're going to listen to her video that she made. The visual freedom is a fundamental principle that I safeguard. Without a doubt, there is no room for compromise when it comes to this. essential right that all women possess from birth, individual freedom. What does my body, my choice, really means? I like that at auto point, Katie Perry. Yeah, that's good. That was very

appropriate. Why couldn't she just have gotten Michelle Obama to read it? You know, like, I don't care. Yeah. Do you? Like, I don't, I don't care. That's it. I'm, you know, I'm not, thank God, nobody. he's asking me to read the book. You didn't pay $250 for it? I thought it was $250,000. I thought that was for the interview. It's $250 for the deluxe copy. Oh, good God. It's $40.75 and $250. It's almost like I've been talking about this every day for two weeks. Oh, my God. What's her podcasting fee, Jesse? Did I'm going to shock you to let you know I did not inquire. Oh, okay. Yeah, I can. care about this as much as I care about every time that Ivanka and Jared pretended to distance themselves from something Donald did while in office.

Like, yeah, just shut up and go away. I actually have a hot take. I think that this has wider implications and smarter strategy than this. Trump is a student of Vladimir Putin's hyper-normalization theory that if you make everyone confused and no one believes anything they see and no one knows what the truth is, that they vote for the authoritarian. And this muddies the waters for. or thinking he's squishy on abortion as he's been trying to do as JV. Dance tried through the entire,

sorry, J.D. Vance tried through the entire. I kind of like J.D. Dance. So I thought you were making a funny. I have to stop doing the joke about Matt Gates' favorite thing to go to being a J.V. Dance. I think that this is purely to, because we saw that J.D. Vance was doing this during the vice presidential debate, too, and that they want people to have permission in their brain. to say, no, it's going to be okay. My daughter's not going to get subjected to all these awful things. Mr. Trump will save us. Yeah, I mean, I can't help you if you fall for that.

100%. I mean, you specifically, Jesse. Oh, yes. I was definitely getting duped. I'm sitting there just, you know, waiting for my early voting to vote for Mr. Trump. Just throw away my last four years of work. Well, I'm going to shock you here as we get to him. He said even more disgusting things about Haitians in America, despite it be. proven that everything they've been saying is fucking lies. Springfield is such a beautiful place. Have you seen what's happened to it?

It's been overrun. You can't do that to people. They have to be removed. So you would revoke the temporary protected status? Absolutely. I'd revoke it and I'd bring them back to their country. Yeah. It's not a surprise.

It's not about illegal immigration. It's about immigration for them. They don't want brown and black people coming to this country. It's just that simple. Yeah. Even to say that it's about immigration, that is just a red herring. Like it is, it isn't about immigration. It is about white supremacy. And what they know is that the more black and brown people that come into this country, the more ethnically mixed this country will become. And it is why they are working over time with, you know, creating their white women baby factories, right? With their trad wife trends. and their, you know, hyper-masculinity and all of these things. It is about preservation of the white race. And so when Donald Trump said when he was in office,

oh, you know, why can't these people come from Finland or Sweden? He's talking about having more white people come in. So like I wish that folks would just stop talking about, oh, immigration and this system and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, those people have temporary protective status. They are here legally. So you can't use the lie of illegal immigration. You just don't like black people and brown people, which makes you a fucking racist.

So let's just say that. Yeah, the thing that also struck me is I was traveling this great country the past few weeks. I was definitely thinking he was great all the time. Please, yes, that's definitely what I was thinking. I saw all these signs about the inflation. You know, it's going to be a little pretty damn inflationary. When you throw out all the immigrants that you don't have cheap labor for all the things, want. And yet, I know, like, that logic does not permeate to them, and that Springfield is a

prime example of this, of that, you know, the white residents of Springfield did not want those jobs, but the immigrants were happy to have them as a start to their American dream so they could save up and try to build up to a better life. And it really did not sit well with me every time I drove by one of those ads. Yeah. You know, I've said this before. Like, to me, immigration is, you know, above all, it's an issue. It's about people. It's not about the economy. It's not about just. jobs is about, and I know you're not saying otherwise. Yes.

But on top of that, it is literally most likely going to bankrupt this country if Trump and Vance get into office and if they go through with their plan to forcibly deport, whether it's 10 million, 15 million, 20 million, whatever figure they're using on whatever day of the week it is, the amount of money it will cost just to do that is some insane number. and then what it will do to the economy to take all those people out of the economy will also absolutely devastate us. So just from a selfish perspective, this will be bad for America, even if you throw out the fact that it's also, you know, morally reprehensible. Yes. Well, speaking of morally reprehensible, we now come to the Money, Honey Maria Bartaromo on a channel I believe is supposed to be about business and stocks called Fox Business. She's going to talk to GOP rep Randy Weber and I'm going to shock you. It's not going to be about those financial things. It's going to be about racism.

They don't have any accountability. They don't care what happens to Americans. Most of us think that they want more people in congressional districts so that they can win more seats. That's it. It's about the vote. Once again, all politics all the time. Forget national security. Forget your safety.

Congressman, thank you. Ready? Mm-hmm. Yeah. The rapidity with which the Republican Party has mainstreamed the great replacement theory is pretty wild. Yep. It is just absolute mainstream, middle of the road, Republican belief now that the Democrats

slash Jews want to bring in black and brown people to replace white people in America so that they, the Democrats, can get elected. That is now just mainstream Republican thought. The thing is, I said this the other day on social media. Like, there is no difference between today's Republican Party and the white citizens council of 1956 or 1954 when it was established. Like, there's no difference there. The whole point of the White Citizens Council

was exactly around ensuring that the laws that were created were to suppress and invalidate black Americans in this country and keep them in an economic inferior place and without a voice and a vote. And so tell me the difference. There is none. The only difference is the name.

And so I'm like, we need to stop talking about the Republicans as they're not a political party. They are a white supremacist movement that has just like really slick language and fancy books and, you know, and what have just exchanged their their hoods for black judicial robes. And they have exchanged, you know, some of the sum of their tiki torches for microphones and to become podcasters. Like, but it's the same theories. As someone who bought Tiki Torches before Charlottesville has been looking to exchange them, do you know where I can exchange them for a podcast like? Party City. Okay, good. I'm going to get them out of storage where I've been hiding them under 12 tarps.

That's funny. Okay. Now we come to Fox News as Sean Hannity. Talking to Governor Jared Polis after the vice presidential debate. and Mr. Hennie is going to show off his very, very large intellectual prowess. Why does she think it's courageous to never say the words radical Islamic terrorism or illegal alien? He said that in 2019. Who attacked us on 9-11?

I don't follow her every word, but yes, they were they were followers. They were radical Islamic terrorists. She said Americans should have the courage to never say radical Islamic terrorism or illegal alien. Well, look, I think what she was trying to get. across and we're all imperfect in how we do it is there's good Americans who are of the Muslim faith. You know that, I know that, you probably have some friends who are radical members of any faith who use their faith as an excuse to exact violence and other people and attack innocent Americans is inexcusable, illegal, and she's a former prosecutor. She's prosecuted people for

hate crimes. She's prosecuted people who engaged in acts of violence. Nobody talks about hate crimes. Radical Islamic terrorism, terrorists that attacked Osama 9-11 and Israel on October 7. All right, next question. Oh, my God. I, go ahead. I don't know. We've been hearing this at the very least since the Obama era from Republicans. I literally found him saying this in 2008.

Like, same old tired playbook, same old bullshit, phoning it in. This is so fucking old. We've been through this so many times how stupid it is to say this. Yeah. And look, illegal alien is just a stupid term. And it could not be more outdated. So the only point of wanting to use that term is to get the word alien in there because it sounds, it's very good at other rising, as we say now, and making people sound scary. Ooh, they're aliens.

Yeah, Franklitz's big brain buried under that bad toupee really did a nice number on the GOP with that one. Yeah, for sure. Just, you know, racist. Folks, I am very excited to bring to you today a really in-depth interview. on what I'm going to call it a growing crisis that I see in our politics, which is this infusion, this overlap of right-wing extremist religious sentiments and backing by billionaires that seems to be taking over our politics. And most recently, a piece inside of ProPublica by Ava Kaufman, who's an investigative reporter there, entitled A Parenthood a pair of billionaire preachers built the most

powerful political machine in Texas, that's just the start. And I'm joined by both Ava Kaufman, investigative reporter and Amanda Tyler, who is the executive director of Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty. Thank you both for making the time for the new abnormal. Thank you. Thanks, Danielle. Eva, I'm going to start with you. Talk to us about the need to kind of do this type of deep dive. We've been talking about billionaires, the infusion of money in politics for quite some time. But this is something that is particularly insidious and different. It isn't just about the money. It is also about this religious extremism and this ideology that has begun to take root in our politics. So talk to us about your reporting. Yeah, thank you. Thanks so much again for having me.

We got really interested in this story because we were. thinking and looking at the kind of growing uptick in Christian nationalist ideology and belief, the idea, the mythology really, that, you know, America has always been a Christian nation and must be restored or returned to those roots is an idea that a bunch of sociologists and researchers have found is really growing and taking hold. It's always been a part of American history. But since Trump's election in 2016, a particularly virulent strand of this ideology, which we saw, you know, perhaps reach a certain culmination in the storming of the Capitol on January 6th, has taken root. And so often with these sorts of movements, it can seem as though they're

grassroots, they're diffuse, they're loose, they're leaderless. And in many respects, when that comes to the Christian nationalist movement, that is on the one hand somewhat true. On the other hand, this is also a movement that is controlled by a handful of wealthy plutocrats who are using it, both because they, you know, believe in these ideas and because these ideas are a vehicle for giving them control. So it was really important for us to pull back the strings and look at two in particular, Tim Dunn and Ferris Wilkes in Texas, which in many ways, this is something Amanda and I have talked about extensively, has become a kind of laboratory for Christian nationalist thought and policy. And it's not just kind of this spontaneous eruption of belief. In many cases, there are kind of, you know, top down players pulling the strings. And so that's kind of where we wanted to concentrate our energy.

Amanda, you're an expert in this space. And I want to get your perspective. But tell us a bit about your background and how you have a deep understanding of this kind of extremist philosophy. Yeah, thanks, Danielle. So my background, I'm a lawyer and I'm also a Baptist lay leader. So grew up in Texas, in Baptist churches, more moderate or progressive Baptist churches than probably a lot of the churches that are fully bought into the Christian nationalism movement, but churches that really put a high value on religious freedom for all people and the separation

of church and state. And so it was that work along with my professional training as an attorney and my work in politics and in government working for a member of Congress that eventually led me to lead Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty or BJC, which is an 88-year-old education and advocacy organization headquartered in Washington, D.C. And so for the last several years, I've been studying Christian nationalism in depth as part of our leadership of a campaign called Christians against Christian nationalism, really trying to understand what Christian nationalism is and help explain to other people what an urgent threat it is to our pluralistic democracy, to religious freedom for all people, and for Christians to an authentic Christian witness.

And then, you know, I've had more of a firsthand knowledge of what's happening in Texas for the past year or so because that's when I moved from Washington, D.C. back to Texas. I live in Dallas, Texas. And we are starting to do some local organizing around Christians against Christian nationalism right here in Texas. And so having a much better idea of exactly the dynamics that Ava's talking about, how this well-funded political movement and in Texas. Texas by these two billionaires in particular is really fueling a push to authoritarian theocracy in Texas in ways that are far more extreme than the people on the ground here in Texas are. The idea that there are Christians against Christian nationalism, I'm so grateful that you like brought that to our attention because I feel like when we talk about Christian nationalism, I feel that the assumption is that all Christians think the same way. So it's really important to make those those distinctions. Eva, talk to us about these two billionaires.

Give us an idea about who Tim Dunn, Ferris Wilkes, tell us who they are and kind of these like larger than life figures inside of Texas that are behind this, what I would call a petri dish operation. If it can run in Texas and be successful, then we can activate it in other states and nationally if Donald Trump becomes president. So talk to us about them. Yeah, I'll start by saying that, you know, neither Tim Dunn nor Ferris Wilkes spoke to me. So this reporting was all done through talking to people who knew them, through their associates, through former and, you know, current friends, a few family members here and there, trying to kind of do what we call in journalism, you know, a write-around to get to better know them. And they both have somewhat similar,

but different backgrounds. They both are oil tycoons. Kim Dunn made his fortune with a private family run firm called Crown Quest, when parent companies is Crown Rock. And Ferris Wilkes started a fracking services company with his brother. They both came from nothing in Texas and are part of a really conventional Texas rag to riches kind of tale and story in that respect. People from their hometowns look at them with a lot of pride. And they seem to kind of fit into this, you know, lone star ethos of kind of having a rugged. Lugged Libertarianism, and that is definitely informed, you know, part of their political thinking.

The other half of it that can't be discounted, and then this article is obviously key, is a, you know, deep and abiding religiosity. And I believe these, these beliefs are, you know, genuine and sincere. There are obviously, you know, people who use religious movements to their end, who are not true believers. But as far as I can tell from my reporting, that is not the case here. What's most troubling, and I think where people kind of, you know, might object to what Mr. Wilkes and Mr. Dunner doing is this idea that those beliefs should be everyone's beliefs. And, you know, particularly when it comes to the battleground of schools, which is kind of where they've most, you know, focused on this idea of kind of dismantling or tripping away at church state separation in the classroom,

seeing the classroom as a kind of bastion of secular indoctrination that needs to be reversed. That's where the war is kind of really being fought right now. And so, and so that's kind of where we were most kind of looking most closely at their efforts. Schools have always been at the forefront. of the fight for a true democracy, whether it was ensuring that we didn't have prayer in school, whether it was the integration of schools. Now we have the book bannings and we have the Ten Commandments that are up in Louisiana schools. I want you, Amanda, to talk about the law that was passed in Texas with regard to the mental health counselors in public schools and why that should be alarming for all of us that believe in like public education and not religious indoctrination.

Yeah. So I think you're referring to the law that was passed in the last legislative session in Texas, which was in 2023. The legislature only meets every other year for five months. So it's been a while since they've been officially in regular session. But they passed a law that encouraged school districts to hire or accept as volunteers, school chaplains. In some cases, in places, in places,

that might even replace mental health counselors or that would use their public safety money, money that was meant to help defend schools from shooters in Texas in order instead to pay for school chaplains. Now, there are so many problems with this piece of legislation, which is the first of its kind in the country. So that does go to this laboratory of Christian nationalism idea that Ava was talking about. But one of the problems is just the way that they define chaplains. A chaplain is defined in the law as any.

who can pass a criminal background check. So no requirements of special training, licensure, ability to work with children. Also, no restrictions on what they might say, how they might indoctrinate children, no requirement of parental consent to meet with children. None of the kinds of protections that really protect everyone's religious freedom. One good piece of this legislation, though, is it didn't automatically take effect. It instead required schools. districts to vote on whether or not they would adopt this new policy. And what's so telling is when this policy went out to 1,200 school districts in Texas, the vast majority of them decided not to adopt this program. And that's because they saw what a disaster this would be for their school

districts, for the children, how it would harm children in their school districts. And so they rejected it. And I tell this story because I think it's so important to see that there's such a disconnect between what the really extreme people who are pulling the levers of politics and policy in Texas are and how people feel about this on the ground. I think there might be an assumption that these laws are just reflecting a really conservative populace in Texas, and that's simply not the case. The problem is that this model legislation has now been exported to other states around the country. Florida has passed a similar, not exactly the same, but a similar law.

and it's been introduced in a number of other states. And so we have to be on our guard about these moves to really push religious instruction and religious indoctrination in the public schools. I mean, my question then would be like, so then send your kids to a religious school. Like there are Christian schools. There are Catholic schools. There are, you know, all types of religions have their schools. What is the obsession with the overtaking?

of public education and instilling Christian values in this space. And Amanda, that follow-up question is for you. Well, I think it's a two-track policy. On the one hand, they are trying to send more people to private schools by pushing a school voucher program that, again, the people of Texas do not want that has continued to be rejected. And as part of Avis piece, it's explained how these billionaires helped primary a number of conservative Republicans who were.

against the vouchers and primaried them out of their seats. But at the same time, they're trying to Christianize the public schools. And I think it's part of this very extreme movement that sees it as God's will, that Christians and not just any kinds of Christians, but fundamentalist Christians, take over every segment of society, including government, including education, in order to impose a theocracy. They're not always that clear when they're stating their motives, but when you look their actions, that's absolutely what the big power play they're going for right now. And Ava, you know, in your piece, you discuss how in 2016 that Trump received a higher share of the white evangelical vote than any presidential candidate since 2004. And then you go on to

write, quote, the slogan, make America great again, can be interpreted not unreasonably as a dog whistle to make it Christian again, too. Can you talk more about the, that piece because, again, for those of us who know who Donald Trump is, who can ticker off a number of ways in which this man is the antithesis of religious figure, of a person that should be aligned with evangelical Christians, how does this happen? Yeah, I mean, this has been the kind of million dollar question over the last, you know, eight years. And I think there have been some some really great and compelling explanations for how, as you put it, Danielle, you know, this man with such a kind of conspicuous lack of piety has become this kind of, you know,

imperfect vessel, I guess, is one of the phrases, you know, people use for evangelical leaders and for the evangelical movement, the white evangelical movement in particular, I should say. The research I found kind of most compelling that's come out recently from two sociologists, Andrew Whitehead and Samuel Perry, was this. finding that actually, you know, even adjusting for economic discontent, for underlying, you know, racist beliefs or for general religious affiliation, it was actually Christian nationalist beliefs in particular that showed people to be a kind of greater predictor of support for Trump's candidacy than any of these other factors. That to me is a pretty mind-blowing quality

to finding. What Trump has done here that I think kind of gets lost in everything he says in his speeches because he says so many different things in every speech. You can write, you know, 10 to 20 different articles about, about different lines and parts of them is he has made some really explicit calls to the white evangelical community and these dog whistles, as I put it, to Christian nationalist mythology in particular. You know, the kind of most famous being this idea that Christianity will have power, that it is under tremendous siege. Most recently, he's talked about Christianity having a comeback, like just about no other group. We might all recall the kind of disturbing remarks made recently that, you know, Christians need to vote just this

time because in four years you won't have to vote anymore, my beautiful Christians, which raises, you know, all kinds of questions as well about the future of our electoral processes. But these statements that get lost in the kind of barrage of speech are really, really key and are speaking directly to this mythology, to these beliefs, and to this demographic. And Amanda's also done some, you know, key work on this, particularly looking at January 6th as well. What do each of you hope that people take from this piece, from this kind of investigative work, Ava that you've done and Amanda, the work that you're doing with Christians against Christian nationalism. What do you want people to take away? Amanda, I'll start with you. Well, I hope that this piece can be a wake-up call for

Americans across the country about what's happening right now in places like Texas and what could happen across the country. I mean, there's a lot of information out there about Project 2025, but we don't have to wait to a possible 2025 Trump administration to know what is happening right now in states like Texas. And I also hope that they see how fundamentally anti-democratic this is because a majority of Americans do not want this takeover of an authoritarian theocracy. And I'm about to go out on the road with my new book, which is called How to End Christian Nationalism. And I'm going to be going to local communities across the country really hoping to help jumpstart some local. organizing around this topic for people to see how Christian nationalism is impacting their local communities and to band together across all kinds of differences in order to push back against

this attack on our democracy. Great. And Ava for you? Yeah, I would just add to that that the work of groups like Christians against Christian nationalism make clear, you know, this is this is an issue that transcends partisan lines and religious lines. This is not about being a kind of partisan or religious issue. This is an issue about the First Amendment and our democracy. So I hope that this kind of story and thinking more deeply about this ideology, you know, readers readers across the country so they can have the tools to see it and to name it. I want to thank the both of you so much for your work and making the time here.

And I just want to tell folks again the piece that Ava has written that is at ProPublica right now is entitled A Pair of Billionaire Preachers, built the most powerful political machine in Texas. That's just the start. Ava Kaufman and Amanda Tyler, thank you so much for making the time for the new abnormal and all of the work that you're doing to wake us up to what is a growing crisis in this country. Really appreciate you.

Thank you. Thanks for having us. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of the new abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend and keep the conversation going. This podcast is a Daily Beast production with production by Jesse Cannon

and Seamus Calder. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to the DailyBeast.com slash membership slash podcast and sign up today.