The Daily Beast Podcast - Musk’s Echo Chamber Is So Deep He Thinks People Like Him

Episode Date: March 21, 2025

On the latest episode of The New Abnormal, an exploration of the way the world’s richest man has effectively “canceled himself.” Then, The Bulwark’s Will Sommer joins the show to discuss the MAGA podcast sphere—and how the ideas being floated there in recent weeks are veering into dangerous territory. Plus! A conversation with ProPublica reporting fellow Nicole Foy about her recent piece titled, “Some Americans Have Already Been Caught in Trump’s Immigration Dragnet. More Will Be.” Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits pretty comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears.

What an excellent show we have today. Well, Summer, senior reporter at the bulwark, and author of Trust the Plan, joins us to discuss the growing wave of anti-Semitism in right-wing podcasting and how figures like Joe Rogan and Theo Vaughn are mainstreaming conspiracy theories, as well as why MAGA Media is suddenly obsessed with rewriting World War II history. Then we'll talk to ProPublicas, Nicole Foy, about her wild, report on U.S. citizens getting swept up in immigration raids, the busted system enabling this, and how it's only going to get worse. But first, let's have some fun.

Danielle, they basically want to kill me. This is actually a quote from Elon Musk, who has been going around for a long time now, talking about how he is a victim and how things like, you know, cancel culture have been out to get him. And his latest thing. now is that there is a concerted conspiracy among people on the left in America to try to assassinate him. And as Jesse Cannon was pointing out before we started recording, Musk's little assassination fantasies or whatever you want to call them, go back a long way. And also, I was reminded of the time where he banned the Elon Jet account from Twitter for tracking his

plane, calling it assassination coordinates. But he is now going around an interview saying they want to kill me. I was thinking about this. And I kind of have no doubt that there are individuals who despise him so much and maybe are a bit unhinged. And in the era of Luigi, do want to kill him? I'll sort of give him that much that I think if I were him, I would be worried too. Of course, I would maybe think maybe I should stop doing the things that are pissing people off so much. But the real thing here is the it's the they.

It's the same they we saw after that nut job took a shot at Trump. It's the same they that is always invoked by these people on the right who think there are these vast conspiracies against them. That's my angle on this is it's not so much that I disagree with him that there are people who want to kill him. I'm sure there are. Most powerful people have people out there that want to kill them. But the thing with Musk is he always has to elevate it to a conspiracy theory level, Danielle. I have to read this piece from Amanda Marcotte's salon article entitled They Basically Want to Kill Me. GOP efforts to turn Musk into a maga martyr are backfiring.

But I want to read this sentence because it is so good. She writes this, quote, Even by the low standards of people who love Donald Trump, Musk is too charmless, self-pitying, and privileged to make a compelling character in the endlessly idiotic drama of right-wing outrage at liberals who commit the high crime of not liking them. That's a good sentence. It's so good.

Like, that sentence was so good. Because this is the thing. They want the ability. Musk and his muskets and the sycophants of Donald Trump. They want the ability to do. heinous things, to cause unbearable harm, to, as they said, traumatize the workforce and traumatize America. And America deserves all of this pain because that's part of their rehabilitation of Americans. And then they wonder why people don't like them. And then they

want to do all of these things and then be worshipped for it. And I'm just like, are you all high? Like, I know Musk is, but I'm like, is everybody else in that circle high? Where they believe that they are deserving of like constant adulation and like applause. Like, I just don't get it. And to say that, oh, I'm this victim of cancel culture, dude, you canceled yourself. Elon Musk gets on stage, gives two disgustingly hateful salutes that he thinks was going to do what? elevate his brand. I really do believe that because they have created this echo chamber that makes them believe

that there are more people who are aligned with their thinking and their ideology than there are, that when they are faced with reality, it really does knock them on their ass. Like they really don't know how to deal with it because they've been getting high on their own supply for, oh, I don't know, almost a decade now. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think, you know, they sort of, to a large extent, they people like that surround themselves with yes men and yes women. So it always comes as a bit of a shock to them to discover that not everybody, particularly

people who are not on your payroll, feels that way about you. You know, there was another thing that Musk said in that Hannity interview. He kept saying, I've never done anything harmful. I mean, imagine. Imagine the nerve of this guy who has done more harmful things, forgetting about his past life just in the last two months than, you know, most people do in a lifetime. And for him to sit there and sort of just whine that, you know, I'm mommy's good boy. And to act like, you know, it makes no sense that, that this. level of hatred for him because he's never harmed anyone. And he's done this on X as well, talking about who he thinks is behind the Tesla takedown protests. And he starts throwing around names like George Soros and a bunch of others. Coincidentally, many of whom are Jews,

but I'll just put that in as an aside. When the fact of the matter is that Tesla takedown is about as organic as it gets, and it's really been a bunch of little protests getting bigger across the country and is very clearly not bankrolled by anybody. But he has to think that there's a grand conspiracy against him because that's sort of the level of importance that he gives himself. And it can't just be that people hate him. It has to be that there are these giant forces at work against him because of all the important work he is doing and how important he is. And this is just the pure narcissism coming out. It's absolutely wild to why. watch him do this. And it's becoming even too much for a bunch of Republicans. I mean,

he's out there talking about wanting to cut Social Security. And Republicans are like, no, you need to shut up. I mean, the fact is, is that like, you can't shut up a narcissist because everything consistently comes back to them. And this is, this was one of the things that I wondered really about the relationship between Donald Trump and Elon Musk is that how do two narcissists mate? You know what I'm saying? Like, At one point or another, someone is going to get pushed out. And I think that Elon must, to be honest, even though he has bought himself a presidency and is bankrolled off of our tax dollars now that his own private businesses are losing equity daily because of his stances and because of who he has shown himself to be, I wonder how long this relationship stays symbiotic. Because you do, you have these members that are like, why are you going?

going on podcasts and going on these shows and talking about the need to gut Social Security and Medicaid. They want these things. Like, let's be clear. It's not that Republicans don't want these things to happen. They've wanted it for decades. It's just the fact that they don't want it to be talked about out front because guess what? Elon Musk is not an elected official. So he doesn't have to go and do these town halls and face constituents and worry about being reelected. He just floats in, floats out, does whatever he wants because he's not a government appointee. He's not an elected official. He's just some rich guy who has a hobby of being a white nationalist. Like that's like that's his jam. And so I think that as he continues to do an act the way that

he does, he's not only going to continue making enemies outside of the Magasphere. I think that he's going to make enemies inside of the Magasphere. And that remains to be seen. Yeah, no, I think that's right. And I want to, I want to read a quote from a Republican senator from the hill.com talking about a musk making all these references to cutting Social Security and Medicare and things like that. Here's what the senator said. He said, he should zip it on that. It's not helpful. It plays right into Democrats' hands. They want to talk about Social Security cuts, Medicare cuts, Medicaid cuts. We don't. And then this Republican senator requests. anonymity, which is such a large part of the problem here, that this dude doesn't even have

the courage to put his name out there because he knows what it will bring down on him. Because right now, Donald Trump and the Republican Party are sort of, well, the Republican Party is captive to Donald Trump. And Donald Trump has sort of turned over all these day-to-day operations to Elon Musk. So you've got these cowardly Republicans who know that what Musk is saying is going to hurt them, but they won't put their names on it. And so when you start talking about how long we must be able to do this without incurring the wrath of magadam, it's sort of already starting, even though it's in the anonymity phase.

But at a certain point, it is going to get to where there will be people brave enough to put their names on it. I mean, Lisa Murkowski also quoted in the Hill, the Republican senator from Alaska, who is, you know, not a hardcore MAGA person. And she went out there and said, it doesn't help the president when you have someone who clearly is not worried about whether or not social security benefits are going to be there for him. It worries Americans all over the country. And she's absolutely right about this. Like, why does Musk care about Social Security? He doesn't need it.

His sainted mother doesn't need it. And he could not give a shit about the fact that there are a lot of people who do need it. People who, by the way, paid into this. And he wants to talk about, you know, he makes up these numbers about fraud, which are a comprehensive. completely untrue, part of which are just outright lies and part of which stem from the fact that he and his pack of doge morons don't understand how to read databases. It's not a surprise that we're seeing at least some Republicans start to speak up about him. And I guess, as you said, Danielle, the question really is going to be, when do we hit a tipping point? I genuinely do believe

that we are going to reach that tipping point come this spring and summer. I think that more Americans are awake and mobilized and we're going to see it continue out into the streets. And he is going to be Elon Musk, the prime target of that because of his role in Doge. So speaking of things changing the spring and summer, spring and summer is largely when a lot of people like to travel all around the world. It's the time for holidays and breaks and what have you. You know that the times are changing or have changed dramatically for the worst when two of our former allies, because that's what I'm going to, going to refer to Britain and Germany as our former allies, because Donald Trump's administration has made it clear that Europe, outside of Russia, are no longer our allies, have issued travel

warnings to the United States. And I think that this is going to be the beginning of what will turn into a barrage of travel warnings coming in. So both Britain and Germany have issued travel warnings after people have been detained at airports and held. I can't even justify it, to be honest. I know what is being said that some people, they're being denied entry because of their political views, because of what's being found on their phones. And so they're not being admitted into the country, even though they have visas and they have all the necessary paperwork that now it is based on, let me take your phone and, oh, you posted something. negative about Donald Trump, so now you're not allowed into the entire country. So both Britain and

Germany have said to their folks to be wary of traveling to the United States. They're not saying that you're not allowed to travel to the United States, but they are stressing a warning for people to think twice about it. And I think that, I don't know, Andy, I think that this is going to be shockwaves and a domino effect that is going to coincide with the brain drink. And I think that, I don't know, Andy, I think that this is going to coincide with the brain drain that we're seeing from universities. I think that it's all connected. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I agree with you that these are travel warnings.

I just want to say that Germany is saying, no, no, no, this is a travel advisory, not a travel warning. Obviously, these are specific terms of art. Look, they amount to a warning. And, you know, I understand that they want to call it an advisory to sort of a little bit downplay it. But let's talk about why Germany in particular has done. this. There have been several cases, and I want to talk about a man named Fabian Schmidt, a 34-year-old guy who is a legal resident of the United States. He lives in New Hampshire. He went to Germany on a trip,

and he came back to America to go back to his country of legal residence again. And he was stopped at Logan Airport in Boston. He was put in a room and sat on a mat with little food or water, was not allowed access to his anxiety and depression medications, was put in a cold shower, was stripped naked. Let's call this what it is. This guy was tortured. And this guy who is an electrical engineer was coming back to America in early March. And he has lived in America since 2007. He has a permanent resident card. He has no active legal issues against him. And he was tortured. He was tortured by U.S. customs and border protection. This is the world we now live in. The idea that Germany has now had to tell its citizens, hey, you know what? We're not telling you not to go to

America. We're telling you basically be aware of what America is now capable of. And be aware of what America is now doing. I mean, we've seen this. There was a, there was a Canadian woman who also was held in confinement for weeks. For weeks. And we're starting to see this over and over. It is becoming a pattern. And as you said, there are people, there are professors who are being denied entry back into this country because they're going through their phones and finding in one case, it was just a guy had a news article on his browser in his phone that was critical of Trump. In other words, He was reading a news article and customs officials decided, no, you can't come into the country because of that. And we're starting to see it over and over again.

It is a pattern. It is clearly something that they want to do. These are not isolated instances. They may be right now, but they are quickly not going to be if we let this continue. And I think you're right. Any country in the world, not just Europe, any country in the world would be crazy if it didn't give its citizens or anyone in its country a heads up about what's going on here? For those folks who thought that, oh, this was only going to come for the black people and the brown people that were coming into this country, I just want us to be very clear that

these are white Europeans. This is a white woman from Canada. So for those that thought that their complexion was going to be their protection under this administration and think that, oh, all is okay because they're not going to be coming after me. Pay attention. Let these be the alarm bells that should have been going off from the jump 10 years ago. But everybody ignored them. And so now just be clear that no one, no one is safe. Maga brocasters grow suspicious of the Jews. So says my next guest, Will Sommar formerly of the Daily Beast and the Washington Post, among other places.

And author of the tremendous book, Trust the Plan, The Rise of QAnon, and the Conspiracy that Unhinged America. He's now joined the Bullwork as a senior reporter and author of the new newsletter on right wing media, False Flag, where he wrote about this. And he joins me now. Will, welcome back. It's really good to talk to you. Hey, thanks for having me back. Absolutely. Okay. So who are these MAGA brocasters of whom you speak? Yeah, I mean, you know, we're talking about the big dogs here. You know, Theo Vaughn, Joe Rogan. These are the guys who, you know, famously right after the election, that, you know, it was like, to Democrats? Was it the podcast election?

Did Democrats miss it? Do we need a liberal Joe Rogan? And so just in the past two weeks or so, they've gotten really into, like, having like some real, like, kind of explicit anti-Semitism and sort of like pro-Hitler, Hitler, apologist type stuff. And given that in, you know, the last election, you know, there was a sense that we had kind of underrated the power of these podcasts. Now that they're getting into anti-Semitism, I thought, uh-oh.

Yeah. So let's start with a gentleman named Ian Carroll, who Rogan had on. last week. Who is he? He's described in the Apple Podcasts episode info as an independent researcher. What's wrong with that? Why do you hate independent researchers, Will? You know, that is funny. People do call him that and obviously he calls himself that. And they go, oh, you know, this is the classic thing we all know, an independent researcher. You know, very respected title in our culture. This is a guy who has kind of just burst onto the scene. I don't know, like the past year or two. I guess he's really big on TikTok. He has

kind of like an old-timey like 70s mustache. But I say that, but I think that's also maybe like big with Gen Z now too. He kind of looks like a like a mechanic or something. And so he does these kind of like TikToks that are, you know, kind of like, what's up, fam, like and subscribe, Jews did 9-11, that kind of stuff. And I guess it's hugely popular. But he's really emerged out of nowhere, which naturally, you know, has provoked his own conspiracy theories that he's, you know, controlled opposition by the CIA or what have you.

Of course. One of the kinds of things besides the Jews hit 9-11. that he is known for. And what did he talk about with Rogan? Yeah. So he goes on Rogan. I mean, Rogan's clearly a huge fan of his. And they talk about, you know, a lot of it is, obviously, we're living in a real kind of like

Jeffrey Epstein era of talking about Jeffrey Epstein. And, you know, this Ian Carroll is a, is an Epstein, I guess, pursuit enthusiast or researcher. And his theory is basically Jeffrey Epstein was a plot by Jewish people, I guess, to blackmail politicians. And so he gets on there and he's talking, I mean, this kind of stuff is. It's not even really about Israel. It's very explicitly, like he says, Jeffrey, you know, this Jeffrey Epstein plot is a, is a stain on the Jewish people.

And, you know, I mean, that's like really just kind of vile stuff. And Rogan's just like, yeah, it's very interesting stuff here. And then a week later, Rogan decided to platform Daryl Cooper. Who is that? Daryl Cooper is, he goes by martyr maid on Twitter. People may know him. He's very popular on there. And he has this series of podcasts.

He's kind of like if the hardcore history guy was evil. I guess it's sort of like the easiest way to describe him. And so his most recent series that he's working on is sort of like considering World War II from the German perspective, which and he sort of says, oh, he says this is the forbidden knowledge, right? But like, you know, in, I think like middle school, they teach you about like the Treaty of Versailles, stuff like that. And basically his argument, the podcast isn't out yet, but, you know, his series, but his argument appears to be like, you know, this German stuff looks pretty bad. But what you have to consider is like they were really going through it at the time, you know, and so people may, I just want to say, people may also remember him from Tucker did an interview with him and where his, Daryl Cooper's big kind of advancement of the theory of knowledge is that, or of human history is that Churchill was the main villain of World War II. And you think about it as like, I don't think Churchill's in the top 1,000 villains of World War II. Yeah, I guess there's a little horseshoe theory going on here because I see a lot of.

of people on the left talking about how evil Winston Churchill was. And look, he was far from being a saint, but to elevate him to the same level of Hitler is quite something. To that point, Andy, Daryl Cooper says, he says, I'm not a centrist. I have views from the far left and the far right. And it's like, yes, like some sort of national socialist perhaps. Yes, exactly. I was looking into that Tucker Carlson interview, which I had vaguely remembered, and he talked about how Killing six million Jews was an unintended consequence? Yeah, I mean, he says a lot of basically, like, his argument is that if, you know, the allies had just let Hitler take over Poland, everything would have been chill after that. Now, putting aside what that would have done to Poland and everyone else under Nazi rule at the time.

But yeah, that's basically his argument is that it's kind of a, you know, recalls like the arguments against Zelensky in Ukraine, where it's this idea that like, oh, come on, just let the aggressor do a little bit. and then by pushing back against it, it's your problem. Dero Cooper's argument on Rogan was that he says, did we really need to have 40 million people die in World War II so Hitler was out of power? And it's like, well, the whole idea wasn't that Hitler was just chilling in Germany. And so there's a lot of these twisting things. And I guess getting back to the Rogan aspect of it,

Rogan is just having his mind blown by this stuff. And he's like, wow, these are like really good points. He says, you're an educator, Daryl, you're an unconventional kind of educator. I would agree with unconventional, that aspect of it. But it is like the idea that, you know, this is like the biggest possible platform. It was just striking to me that this is who Rogan's hosting. Yeah. And I was looking at, again, some of the other things that Cooper said.

One of the things he said was Hitler's anti-Semitism is what allowed him to love the German people. It's just these things over and over again. And you have Rogan calling his views nuanced and comprehensive and things like that. And you just sit here and you're like, this is the guy who's got everyone's ear. A lot of these kind of bro podcast, this world. it's people who are kind of like digging up ideas that have been discredited ages ago. And so we're not really discussed in academia or in, you know, the mainstream media because of this. Like, for example, Daryl Cooper is like very open about how he draws on the work of Holocaust denier, David Irving.

And so that, I mean, all that stuff is old news, you know, for people who actually study World War II. But, you know, he picks it up and people go, wow, holy smokes. Why didn't they tell me this in school? Yeah. And it becomes one of these things where it's like the fact that people like David Irving have been discredited is in these people's minds, it's more proof that they're correct. Call it. Basically, the Jews have gone after David Irving and prevented him from telling the truth. So I'm going to build on that work. Right. It's that kind of thing.

Right. I mean, it's sort of the forbidden knowledge or the, you know, the idea that this stuff is so real and that's why people are being punished for revealing it. It reminds me of all these conspiracy theories, like in the case of QAnon, they would sort of dig up old ones where they would, you know, get into the blood libel from the middle ages, or they would uncover, like, some neo-Nazi guy from the 70s and his theory about, like, evil bloodlines. And rather than being like, oh, well, that guy was, like, shot in a bank robbery or something. Maybe I shouldn't go. They say, oh, they set him up because, you know, he was saying the truth. Yeah, they're really just, they're recreating the protocols of the elders of Zion is basically what they're doing, it seems to me. Yeah, exactly.

I mean, this is like, like, in the case of Ian Carroll, I mean, this is someone who's very explicitly, like my sense is that I'm not an expert on TikTok conspiracy theories, but my sense is I think there's like a very thriving kind of like conspiracy theories or fun movement on TikTok. Oh yeah, for sure. And Ian Carroll, I think is very into that and explicitly being like Israel slash Jews did everything, right? And so for me, this is personally offensive as someone who enjoys JFK conspiracy theories. And you know, look, this is a ripe ground. We can talk about the mafia, the CIA, Cuban exiles.

And instead for him and obviously JFK is in the news this week with a. release of some new files. I think he has played a key role among other people in being like acting as though the real culprit behind JFK was Israel and that this is the new conspiracy theory on the right. Yeah, I can vouch for the conspiracy theory segment of TikTok as someone who went through the other day, a little rabbit hole learning about the Tatarian bells. What? Oh, yeah, it has nothing to do with what we're talking about now, but I would encourage you to look it up. It's a fascinating conspiracy theory. You're red-pilling me on the Tatarian. It's like an ancient Russian sort of empire that develop these bells that have healing frequencies.

Okay. It's very interesting. Anyway, that's way off topic. Let's talk about Theo Vaughn a little bit because we haven't mentioned him yet. He had what I'm sure was a lovely conversation with Candace Owens recently. Our listeners are probably familiar with her, but for those who aren't, can you give us a quick CV? Sure.

So Candice Owens, I mean, truly a fascinating arc in right-wing media. She initially started, she started as an anti-Gamergate person, and she said, I'm going to build the ultimate app to track internet bullies. And anti-gamergate people said, oh, I don't know if we should be, like, doxing all these people. And she said, well, whatever, then I'm becoming a pro gamer person. And so since then, she's been like sort of a right-wing talking head of various kinds. She hung out with Condia for a while at one point. Then she landed at the Daily Wire. And then since left then, basically over her attacks on Israel and anti-Semitism, which obviously weren't going to work.

work with Ben Shapiro. And now, I mean, her star is only getting bigger. She's getting really into like celebrity gossip, you know, it's sort of a vector for her ideas. So in this case, she went on Theo Vaughn and was saying that, you know, Jews and Israel control America through all these blackmail schemes. A lot of Ian Carroll stuff. I mean, he might want to, you know, hit her with a plagiarism lawsuit, perhaps. This stuff that is really just kind of like, really out there, anti-Semitism. And Theo Vaughn, you know, kind of with his idiot, savonth persona is just saying, like, well, Yeah, that's crazy, Candice. It really is unbelievable.

You know, it would be one thing if people like Rogan and Von platform these people and challenge them even the slightest bit. But they never do, do they? No, I mean, I say this is someone who's listened to, you know, because these podcasts are so long. I mean, so I've listened about like nine or ten hours of these two lately. And you're just kind of screaming listening to it. It's like, as someone who doesn't even know that much about specifically these topics they're discussing, it's the logical whole that they leave open are so obvious.

And they just go, wow, that's amazing. Then they proceed to talk about, you know, what a valuable person this is and all of their great insights. I mean, these are these people have huge audiences. And so these ideas now are obviously kind of getting piped into the discourse. So what's the through line here in your mind? Why is this happening now? My theory, which is not my theory, it's just a sort of common fact of history, is it always comes back to the Jews. But why is this happening now?

You know, I think there's a lot of like anti-Semitic characters who have been given sort of some respectability. I mean, I think about, Nick Fuente is dining with Trump or Kanye West promoting attacks on Jews. I think it's just sort of a time of where, you know, conspiracy theories are booming and that people are feeling dissatisfied with their lives. And I think they're finding answers for it in these attacks on Jews. And I would assume that people like not so much the guests, but people like Rogan and Vaughn, they would probably pass lie detector tests if you ask them if they were anti-Semitic and they said no. And I would imagine they don't think of themselves

as anti-Semitic and they probably would go with, you know, some of my best friends are Jewish. And they seem to have no compunction about platforming these people and listening to these bizarre out there false theories and treating them as if they are close to gospel. What's the disconnect there? You know, I think it's a great question. I think it's partially the way these ideas can come across in this kind of more chill, like the hangout zone on Theobon or whatever, that it just seems like joking, you know, I mean, that Theo Vaughn can say Jews control the media.

And, you know, the other aspect to your earlier question, I obviously, I think like Israel is much more in the news since October 7th. Sure. And it's being discussed a lot more understandably. That's part of it as well, why these things seem like kind of like hot topics. Yeah, no, that's a good point. What's next? How much worse does this get, do you think? You know, you've studied QAnon.

You've studied a lot of right-wing conspiracies. Where does this end up? Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's headed anywhere good. I mean, you know, you think about how just huge these podcasts are. and how sanctioned they are by kind of like the entertainment industry or business more broadly. I mean, Joe Rogan has a massive Spotify contract. All these people have Hollywood agents, this kind of stuff. And so I think it gives respectability to these ideas.

And I think for the average listener, they say, well, you know, these ideas can't be that bad or that forbidden or out of polite society if someone like my buddy Joe Rogan is talking about them. Yeah, I mean, I hate the whole Overton window freeze. But this really is an example of moving that, isn't it? Yeah, I think that's exactly right. It just introduces the idea. And obviously, we've seen this so much in the Trump era, things that once would have been so incredibly beyond the pale now. You know, ultimately, I think particularly Republicans have decided, you know, well, we're just not going to be upset about this anymore. Yeah.

Before I let you go, I want to talk about another piece you wrote that just came out on Thursday. And I hadn't even noticed that a couple of days prior, Jeremy Boring, had left the daily wire. Who is he and why is this a big deal? This is the mystery that consumes me. So Jeremy Boring, it was the CEO of the Daily Wire up until, as you said, Tuesday. He was kind of like a Daily Wire personality himself. He called himself the God King of the Daily Wire, which is like just such a funny thing to call yourself, like, before your downfall.

And like he posed, he would like sit on a throne and wear a crown. And he had like, you know, his anti-woke chocolates and Razors brands named after him. But he was also, he was like kind of very pugnacious guy. He was a guy, sort of like the Daily Wire, if you think about him. And it's almost like kind of like Ted Cruz Republicans. Like they get into some culture war stuff, but they're not like out and out anti-Semites, I guess, which is obviously as we discussed a hot topic these days. And so he made a lot of enemies.

And I had heard all kinds of stories about how he was running the Daily Wire. And then on Tuesday, I heard obviously they announced he was stepping down to take over some entertainment project. But this is, you know, the Daily Wire was supposed to be like the biggest success story in digital Republican media. So it makes you wonder, number one, are maybe things not as Rose. yet the Daily Wire, as all these glowing profiles have suggested that the CEO had to abruptly step down. Or, you know, there's the other aspect, which is that they've spent what I'm, just from watching the videos, I'm assuming, is a huge amount of money on a King Arthur TV series. I love this. I love this. Talk about this for forever, Will. Yes, I would suggest, you know, if people are interested, YouTube Pen Dragon Cycle Daily Wire, and you will see these videos, and it's Jeremy Boring has had this nearly 30-year desire to film this series of books.

about King Arthur called the Penn Dragon Cycle. You watch these videos and so the Daily Wire is funding this. They go to Hungary. They're filming like Game of Thrones level battles and he's directing all of it. And you watch it and it's just like this has to have cost so much money. Okay, we've been in Hungary. Now we're flying to Italy to film like bull fighting, but we're jumping over the bulls. And the bulls are from Spain.

They're authentic Spanish bulls. And you're looking at this and it's like, couldn't you just have hired like Ben Shapiro Jr. for one one hundredth of this and made a new show. And I should say it was supposed to come out last year. It still hasn't come out. One of the main stars was a woman named Brett Cooper, who people may know as sort of like girl Ben Shapiro. She has since quit the Daily Wire and seems to be on very bad terms with them.

So now they have this TV show starring someone who like kind of hates them, it seems. It's very interesting. And, you know, I just really hope some more comes out here because I think the stories can be really interesting. I don't like the way you belittle his artistic. vision and his artistic dreams will. You know, yes, you could have hired another Ben Shapiro Jr. But can you really put a price on a vision, a lifelong dream like the one that Jeremy Boring has? Well, you know, the pathos here are so obvious. This is a guy, you know, like a lot of people, Michael Knowles, Stephen Crowder. Jeremy Boring is sort of a failed theater kid, James O'Keefe

being another example. He wears a key around his neck that was like the key to his high school theater. He named their holding company after the theater. And so he clearly had this dream of being in entertainment that somehow he was able to sort of, after succeeding at the Daily Wire, he was finally able to take over, do a Hollywood style production. And perhaps it seems to have gone over budget. We'll have to see. Well, that was a much more fun way to end the podcast than how we started it. So I appreciate that. Will, always a pleasure to talk to you, man. And best of luck at the bulwark. And hopefully we'll have you back soon. on. Thanks for having me.

Folks, I am excited to welcome on to the new abnormal. Nicole Foy, who is ProPublica's Ansel Paine Fellow, reporting on immigration and labor. Her recent piece entitled Some Americans Have Already Been Caught in Trump's Immigration Dragnet. More Will Be is startling. The article kind of goes hand in hand with the propaganda video that the Trump administration put out that showed hundreds of men who we presume but have no idea if they are Venezuelan, being run through some type of army theatrics and being put on planes. We know through the coverage over the last couple of weeks, last several weeks, that these

stories are becoming more voluminous and just increasing. So walk us through what is happening with who. Who is being detained and what is happening with these raids and what you uncovered with your peace? I kind of set out to write about the fact that, you know, we see some of these, like, random stories pop up in different parts of the country. Oh, someone, you know, was in the wrong place, the wrong time, and they were handcuffed and detained, even though they're a U.S. citizen. Oh, you know, somebody was speaking Spanish in a, you know, in a store, and they were stopped. by ICE agents and interrogated about their immigration history, about whether they were a citizen or not, someone who had ID was still pulled over and asked to prove their citizenship over and over again,

and officials maybe did or didn't believe them. You see a lot of those stories pop up. And I think sometimes the initial reaction is like, oh, that just must be a freak thing. May not even be true. That just doesn't make sense because, of course, U.S. citizens shouldn't really have many or any interactions with immigration officials that are not covered by immigration law. But the truth is, is that not only have there already been a number of U.S. citizens who have gotten caught up in immigration raids so far have had, I think, for lack of a better word, what they would consider unpleasant interactions with immigration officials, that this is hardly the first time. It was a pretty serious issue during the First Trump administration, but it goes far beyond the first Trump administration.

The truth is is that the U.S. has a long history of improperly or accidentally detaining, in some cases, even deporting American citizens. And that's largely because there's still a lot of issues with the way that immigration officials determine whether or not someone is a citizen. So that means whether there's a workplace rate or someone's getting stopped at a checkpoint, folks are finding themselves, especially right now, there's a lot of pressure and new policies that are trying to ramp up the deportation process. There's just a lot more chances for U.S. citizens to be in these situations where their citizenship is questioned, maybe even denied. Advocates are warning that some of these policies are only going to make this ongoing issue that did exist before this month, even worse.

So one of the people that you profile in your piece is Jonathan, Guerrera. And Jonathan was, as your piece opens up, sitting at a Philadelphia car wash, where he works when immigration agents burst in. Talk to us about Jonathan, why you used him as your opening example and exactly what went down at this car wash in Philadelphia. One thing I will say about Jonathan is that, well, I talked to a number of people or a number of folks as lawyers or family members. Even U.S. citizens are really shaken up by a lot of these instances. And so one thing I'll say about Jonathan is that he was very eager to share his story and wanted people to know what happened to him. That's one of the main reasons why, honestly, like, these are the top stories, because he

was very adamant about people knowing what happened and that even though he's a citizen, that when immigration officials raided the car wash where he worked, he just like everyone else in there, was stopped, detained, handcuffed, you know, had an agent point has gone at him and wasn't let go until later on that they started checking IDs, this, you know, going through some of just the processes and they realized that he was a citizen and let him go. A number of his undocumented colleagues were detained, but one of the things that he spoke, I think, really eloquently about was just that he did accuse the officers of profiling him and saying that because of he looked like because of who he was with. They just assumed that he couldn't possibly be a citizen.

And I think it's really indicative of what is happening across the country, what may continue to happen, because it's not always the most dramatic story of someone being detained for weeks by ICE, even though they're a citizen. Sometimes it's just a 21-year-old who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, handcuffed and held a gunpoint before he even gets a chance to say that he's a citizen. and really should not be having any of these interactions with immigration officers. Even a 15-minute interaction with immigration officers can be fraught. Advocates are warning that many of Trump's immigration policies, things like expedited removal or in particularly this pressure of quotas, is really only going to exacerbate its existing issues

that our government has with identifying even who, like, whether someone is a citizen. and it's just going to make it more likely for American citizens to get caught up in these raids or searches. Talk to us about Carlos Rios, who is a U.S. citizen, carries his passport with him for the very reason of being able to ensure his safety when he is driving anywhere and what happened to him. Yeah. One of the things that I set out to do is, you know, because we're still. early on and a lot of these, you know, these initial issues are still being reported. People are still deciding whether to come forward or file a lawsuit because of interactions they came with this administration's policies. We can look at what happened during the first type of administration. And what happened during the first Trump administration is that a number of people were similarly

detained by immigration officials. And then a really, like you said, an example of this is a man named Carlos Rios. He actually worked as a welder and as a commercial fisherman in Washington. And so he had to have his passport on him in order to either get some of those jobs to go into international waters. And yet when he was detained by local police for another crime and eventually turned over to immigration officials, it didn't matter that he had his U.S. passport on him. It didn't matter that he was telling me, when we talk, he was telling me how he just kept screaming and screaming at people, that he was a U.S. citizen, check my bag, I have this, you know, I have this information, I can prove to you that I'm a citizen. He still ended up spending time in the ICE

attention center in Tacoma, Washington, until he finally convinced someone to look at his belongings. And I think that that's a telling case that we should consider because I think a lot of the responses that I've seen are heard to folks raising this issue of, you know, hey, like sometimes the collateral damage of some of these arrests is the fact that citizens get caught out. They're saying, we'll just carry your ID with you, carry your passport, be extra careful. But the truth is that, like, history shows that does not, that may not help you. It certainly should help you. That is a very easy way to prove that you are a U.S. citizen.

But we have seen many cases where, for one reason or the other, that's simply not enough to help people get out of detention or even sometimes convince immigration officers of those documents veracity. I think there's already been several reports of people reporting that immigration officers have scoffed at identification that's been presented. The truth is, is that there's a number of reasons why U.S. citizens fall through the cracks of an immigration system that they really should not be touching or involved in because they are citizens. But it's kind of hard to tell what is going to protect you because what should protect you, does sometimes go out the door, it seems, based on, you know, experience and lawsuits and

what folks have told me if there's additional pressure. And that's why folks are really warning that these additional pressures and especially things like arrest quotas could result in more, more of these cases. You write this, and I just want to lift it up for the listeners. You wrote, Custom and Borders Protection and ICE are not even required to track how often they hold citizens on immigration charges, the GAO found. While ICE agents could note in their database if someone they've investigated turns out to be a citizen, the GAO found that they are not required to do so.

As a result, records are often wrong and left uncorrected even after agents have been told of a mistake. Someone flagged incorrectly in an ICE database once may be forced to deal with questions about their citizenship for years. Yeah, that's an issue that a government report found examining the time that encompasses the first Trump administration with a couple of years

of the end of the Obama administration too. And it's something that is still echoed by advocates and lawyers for folks who end up in these situations today, is that oftentimes their clients end up in these situations because they had a run-in with immigration officials years or sometime before. I think a really good example in here is the case of Peter Brown. He's a U.S. citizen. He had had a run in several years before everything happened where someone mistook him for another person with the same name. And this person was an immigrant who was here illegally and who was wanted on a number of crimes. It was absolutely a case of mistaken identity. And they closed out the investigation by saying, oh, this is not, not that guy. And instead, years later, when he was in jail in Florida for a different

matter, ICE officials asked local jail officials to hold him because he was flagged. in their system because of this previous investigation. And even though all of these records were available, like their own records were available, his attorneys alleged that they still allowed him to remain in detention. They alleged that it wasn't until his roommate was able to send a copy of his birth certificate that he was able to finally get out of ICE attention. And I should note that, you know, many of these are allegations from a lawsuit that is filed. currently against the local Florida jail that held Peter Brown. But so it's just one of those issues where like it's a government report found that that's an

issue. And lawyers and advocates continue to say that sometimes ICE is not even using its own records to confirm someone's citizens or not. At least, it delays the process of which a citizen may be detained on immigration charges that, of course, should not apply to them. Even in the case that we mentioned earlier of Carlos Rios, who, who had been illegally detained, that he ends up receiving $125,000 settlement

from the government, which you have stated in your piece, does happen, but it's like, at what cost of being terrorized and kidnapped for weeks to then have to fight as a citizen, to be recognized as such, to then turn around and be given some money from the federal government, as if, like, hush money to just, oh,

oops. I just feel like what your piece highlights is that there is no way to keep yourself safe, that even if you're carrying your passport, you have your driver's license, you have photocopy, your birth certificate, and you're just moving around this country that you could, in fact, just be in the right place at the very wrong time and your life upended from there. Yeah. I mean, I think the issue is that a lot of these things, have to be settled and litigated after the fact after it's already happened. And that doesn't necessarily take away from the trauma that people go through, like what happened to Carlos. He, I mean, he talks a lot about how that still affects him to this day, even though it was several

years ago now. And especially just the trauma, I think, of realizing that you could, you know, in some cases, like, possibly be deported to a country that you've never been to. That's something that Peter Brown talks about in his lawsuit is that he just told he was going to be deported to Jamaica. He had been there once on a cruise. That's a terrifying situation. And there are so many processes that are supposed to prevent this situation from happening. But of course, you know, no process, no system is perfect. But it's especially not perfect when there are pressures that may expedite or make it difficult for people to receive their due process. Something that I like to mention to people is that because most immigration charges are a civil offense and not a

criminal offense. That means that most of this is, you know, of course, litigated and it ends up in civil administrative court where you're not guaranteed a lawyer. And so that can mean, again, like, it's even more difficult to advocate for yourself. You know, there are, of course, a number of legal resources that folks try to make available to people in immigration detention. But as we've seen develop, especially over this last week, the current administration is trying to ramp up this deportation process, even if it means that. some of these due processes are not available to people in detention. Well, Nicole, we will have to leave it there today, but I can't thank you enough for your research

and your reporting on this because I think that many people are under the false illusion that because they are U.S. born, that they're going to be okay, that immigration is somebody else's problem. And I think that what your piece highlights is that, no, it is everybody's problem in a hyper-police state where there is no accountability for the brutality that is being used against people. And I think that your piece brings a really important spotlight on an issue that I think too many people have not felt like is their issue. So I just want to thank you for making the time to join the new abnormal and break this down for us. Thank you for having, Lee. Danielle Moody. Andy leaving. All right.

Danielle, I believe it's the first day of spring or thereabouts. So put a spring in our step and give us a cheery fuck that guy to kick off the new season. Is there such a thing as a cheery fuck that guy? No, there is not. I don't think so. This person is not new to the fuck that guy list because she has shown herself over the last few years to be an absolute transphold. a racist, a big, just, you know, an overall trash compactor of a human being. And that person is South Carolina Representative Nancy Mace.

Nancy Mace, as we know, made it her job and duty to welcome the first openly trans representative to Congress, Sarah McBride, in the most vile way by creating a Jim Crow-esque environment on Capitol Hill for her by denying her access to the bathrooms. And, you know, we have known that she has utilized her social media platform to be able to harass, bully, and target Representative Sarah McBride and others inside of the trans community. And now she has turned her attention to a 23-year-old teacher, who she has begun attacking, who themselves is trans, and and has gone so far as to call on RFK Jr. To go after this person for posting on social media that, you know, God, I love estrogen,

obviously taking estrogen as part of the medications that they use. And posted, quote, can we get RFK on this? No way is this healthy. Do you know what's not healthy? Bigotry. What's not healthy is the hate that this woman directs towards a non-elected official, a non-public person by showing their picture, their name. What's your goal here? Your goal is harm.

Your goal is that that person not only gets bullied off of the internet, but maybe gets bullied off of the face of this earth. Because I can think of no other reason why an elected official would target a private citizen on their public and private accounts. with their name and their photograph and where they work, if you don't want harm to come to that person. And again, we are clearly living in a land of lawlessness because I have no idea why something like this is allowed to continue and there is no law that can stop Nancy Mace from doing what it is that she does over and over and over again.

This is harassment. This is bullying. This is stalking. This is endangering the lives of people. And she's just allowed to do it. And I don't understand. I don't understand how there isn't law enforcement at her door. I don't get it. But this is why people like her continue to do what they do because they're always protected and covered. Their bigotry is always protected and covered until somebody gets killed and then they throw up their hands and they're just like, oh, well, I didn't pull the trigger.

I didn't like the match. And they just get plausible deniability. It's bullshit. and we know where it's coming from. And I wish that it would be handled by law enforcement, but it never is. So for that reason, Nancy Mace, once again, welcome back to fuck that guy. Yeah, we talked earlier about Elon Musk saying, they want to kill me and imagining some sort of conspiracy against him.

This woman, Sabre, actually can say they want to kill me. Like you said, it starts with Nancy Mace. And then there's a woman named Becky Weiss, who, is part of the group, Gaze Against Groomers, which is a complete anti-trans group. She then sees this, and then she posts a video on Instagram that sort of hints at Saber's address and phone number. And now we get to the point where Saber tells the advocate, she's gotten a bunch of threats on her life. She cannot share. She says where she works or lives because of her fears for her personal safety. This is what they want. This is what Nancy Mace

wants. And like you said, God forbid something happens to this woman. Nancy Mace will sit there and swear up and down. Well, I didn't want any violence to happen to her. And she'll be lying because this is what she wants and this is what they all want. I think Saber said it best. In a statement, she said, the fact that taxpayer dollars are going toward this trans-obsessed hack of a politician that spews slurs is a disgrace to our entire government. And she's 100% correct. That's exactly what Nancy Mace is. She's a trans-obsessed hack of a politician. And the fact that taxpayers are paying Nancy Mace's salary and that she is out there spouting all this stuff is an absolute disgrace to our entire government. Not a surprise, I suppose, that the victim of all this would say it best,

but that to me is the perfect way to put it. So yeah, fuck these guys. So, Andy, I did not add a spring to our step, but maybe you will. So please, the seasons are changing. Have your decisions on who you're fuck that guy, have they changed as well? This sort of does have a bit of a happy ending. Oh, good. So we'll go with that. There's a guy named Justin Eichorn. He is, or I should actually say, was a Minnesota state senator. He was arrested earlier this week on felony charges of soliciting a minor for prostitution. He basically tried to meet up with an undercover police officer who was posing online as a 17-year-old girl. Icorn is 40 years old, and he has now, just a little bit before we started recording this, he has resigned his seat.

So that's the happy ending. Oh, that's nice. Yes. He probably was going to be booted out of the legislature because there was about to be a vote on that. And he resigned his seat. So one of the reasons why this is so notable beyond the usual Republican is a pedophile story, which is sort of, you know, at this point, it's pretty much a daily occurrence. that we get one of these stories. It's its own genre. Yeah, no, it really is. Icorn had recently sponsored a piece of legislation in Minnesota that would classify, quote-unquote, Trump derangement

syndrome as a mental illness. I mean, this bill was, you know, pretty roundly derided. The majority leader of the state Senate in Minnesota, Aaron Murphy, said it was possibly the worst bill in Minnesota history. But it is, I think, notable that this guy who wanted to put up for a vote, a bill that would basically say that anyone who doesn't like Donald Trump is mentally ill, was shortly thereafter arrested for soliciting a minor and forced to resign his seat. He gets my fuck that guy because he's a pedophile or however you want to classify it. And, because he sponsored and put up for a vote, tried to put up for a vote, one of the dumbest pieces of legislation we've ever seen. But on the other hand, like I said, kind of some good news here, Danielle, to end out this week with him being arrested and resigning his seat.

So fuck that guy, but also well done, just an icon. This shit writes itself. Do you know what I'm saying? We know that every time that one of these Republicans is so anti something, like, wants to do the, pick me, pick me. I'm going to put up legislation to show you just how aligned with Donald Trump I am. And then they end up exposing themselves, literally. So this guy, like I said, there is an entire genre of these Republican pedophiles that, I mean,

like if you were to literally put it into a book, it would probably look like the depth of Project 2025 in terms of its volume. It's sick. Fuck that guy. I wish that he hadn't resigned. I wish that he had been booted out. But I'm even surprised to be honest that he resigned and or that there was going to be a vote to remove him because Republicans love to double down and stretch the limits on what we used to know unequivocally as sex with minors. This is what pedophilia is. And over the last couple of years, you've seen changes in legislation, lowering ages of compliance, and it's all done by Republicans. Just sick. Fuck that guy. Fuck all of them. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of The New Abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday. If you enjoyed it,

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