The Daily Beast Podcast - My Time Inside MAGA World Showed Me All Its Secrets

Episode Date: January 14, 2024

Journalist Tina Nguyen tells The New Abnormal how her time inside America’s political right-wing showed her how it captures young hearts and minds. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Kedden, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears.

Hello and welcome to another Sunday bonus episode of the new abnormal. We thank you so much for being here. Today we have an extra special guest with Pucks Tina Nagloyan, and she's going to tell us all about her new book, The Maga Diaries, my surreal adventure inside the right wing and how I got out. And it's one hell of a ride. But first, let's have some fun. Are you guys ready to list some clips again in 2024?

Clips. Clips. So it's been a while since we taped a new edition of this. So I have a lot of stupid to choose from. So buckle up.

Oh, boy. So here we have GOP representative Tim Burchett from the great state of spilling tea and being petty constantly.

Talking to the most cringe man in Republican media, one based Benny Johnson. And here he's going to echo one former representative Madison Cawthorn's

accusations against the GOP and tell us Why thinks Republicans vote for such crazy shit? Tennessee, Marsha Blackburn has been completely blackballed in the Senate for asking for these flight logs to be released and for this client list to be released. It seems like now you are fighting with her in the House. Why the protection mechanism? And more importantly, you mentioned recently in an interview that there may be some members of Congress who are personally compromised by this.

And they don't want the truth to get out. expound on that? Yeah, 100%. You've got powerful people, and they write the big checks. Well, let's be honest, and powerful people in this country, they write the big checks. And they, you know, they're the ones out on the tarmac when the president comes in visits, and at whichever party they're in, they always either out on the tarmac or in the private room, they're the ones that write the big checks. They don't care who's in. They hate this country. They hate what we're about, but they love their portfolios and they love their money more than they do anything else. And they protect it and they protect the people

that do that. And by doing so, you know, the old honeypot, the Russians do that and I'm sure members of Congress have been caught up. Why in the world would good conservatives vote for crazy stuff like what we've been seeing out of Congress? It's that works. You're visiting,

you're out of the country or out of town or you're in a motel or at a bar in D.C. And some whatever you're into, women or men or whatever comes up and they're very attractive. and they're laughing at your jokes and you're buying them a drink.

Next thing you know, you're in the motel room with them naked, and next thing you know, you're about to make a key boat. And what happens? Some well-dressed person comes up and whispers in your ear, hey, man, there's tapes out on you. Were you in a motel room on whatever, with whoever? And then you're like, uh-oh, and said, you really ought not be voting for this thing.

I mean, you know, and what do they do? It's human nature. and, you know, no man or no woman actually is an island, and they know what to get at. You know, if it's women, drugs, booze, it'll find you in D.C. And in most elected offices. And that's what people of power and influence do. Damn.

Did he take some fucking truth serum? Like, whoa. I think he's auditioning for when Kevin Spacey gets his delusion to come true, and he's back on House of Cards again. Ooh. Well, it's good to know. why Republicans keep voting for crazy shit. Yes.

We've all been wondering. Last week, Madison Cawthorne really, like, basically said the same exact thing around the same time as him. Last week? Well, yeah, actually, he did a new interview with based Benny Johnson. But he was kind of saying that. Yep. When he was still, yeah.

And that's, that was sort of the point where the Republicans were like, all right, we're done with you. Yep. Because the thing is, is that, like, there were actually no lies. detected there. I would argue because I am partisan, but I would argue that like, Republicans do a lot of fucking dirt. Do you know what I'm saying? Like a lot of the things that they say and talk about and create policy around is all about projection. And so very easily these people get caught up in a lot of bullshit trying to access the lovers of power. So I mean, he said what he said.

Yeah, he said naked. And he said naked. And then they come and whisper in your ear. And I'm like, damn, did Shonda rhymes write that? Like, unclear. That's a good point. Maybe he is a big fan of scandal. I can see him. I could see him just looking at Carrie like I do, just all dreamy-eyed and just being like,

this could be my new career after congressman. So one of the things we discuss here is that Republicans constantly say the quiet part loud now. Kind of like that last clip. But Jesse Waters is someone we continually chronicle as saying the sociopathic part proudly. Here's another entry into that. Okay. My dog rookie ate my nanny's hamburger yesterday. It was her lunch.

Now, is it my responsibility to get her a new hamburger? Yes. Even though she left it within reach of the dog? She didn't get her the first hamburger anyway if she was working? No, she brought the hamburger. Yeah, go get her another hamburger. Yes. Just stop talking.

You're only going to get yourself. Because that's what I did. I got her another hamburger. I did not get her another hamburger. Like, is his MO just to consistently every day show what an asshole he is? Like, honestly, Andy, you know him. Like, is this, is his MO just to be like, I'm such a dick and like that makes him part of the cool club? Well, first of all, he is, as I pointed out a million times, the dumbest person on cable news.

So I'm not sure that he knows he's being an asshole. Come on, Andy. It's a little bit like a curb your enthusiasm thing, where Larry David will just, he is convinced that he is right and the entire world is wrong. So you just watch and cringe as he gets himself into these awful situations because he says and does things he shouldn't say or do. I think Jesse firmly believes he should not get his nanny another hamburger when his dog eats his nanny's hamburger. But I also think he revels in being a dick.

So it's hard to say, I guess. This would be my thing. Jesse Waters is a bro. Right. The real calling card of a bro, some people are like, oh, it's yelling about sports loud. It's bad. I think it's being clueless to what a fucking asshole you are and think people find it amusing when you're dead wrong. That's what I'm saying.

Yeah. Yeah. I think he has displayed that for many, many a year. But also, the cruelty is the point. Yeah, also dumbest person in cable news. Well, unfortunately, we're going to keep going with him. Oh, Jesus Christ. Well, we have the misfortune of having to hear from him twice a night on both the five

and his own unbelievably stupid show. And one of the things I think isn't talked about enough is after Tucker Carlson's white power hour left the airwaves, the big change really has been instead of discussing things that could get them lawsuits or, you know, white replacement theory is to move to just the stupidest thoughts possible. You would think that would be beneath a major news network, but this network is an endless pit of hell lower than anything I ever conceived. Now I have an example here of Mr. Waters talking to him, a fellow named Jimmy Fela, who looks a little out of place here

since he looks like he's out of his indigenous space, a hot tub showroom. Oh, shit. So younger Americans are now complaining about being an adult in the Biden economy. And guess what? it's your fault. I work five days out of the week, 40 hours a week, okay? I do not make enough to live on my own.

You have 20 years of experience in a career that has allowed you to gain raises, to get more money, to profit you in an economy that you created. I don't want to work my tail end off, wasting all of my life working. You let the economy turn into what it did. You let it all.

Have a point or not? No, okay, and I'm going to give her a heads up, okay? She's using social media all wrong. She shouldn't be yelling at old people. She should be selling them pictures of her feet. She would own that Walmart. She wouldn't be wearing that vest. That's how you mean.

Oh, Jesus, Jimmy. Good buddy of yours? No, not a good buddy of my guy. I knew at Fox. Nice guy. At least back then, a lot of people were nice and have shown to be otherwise since then. I believe he's hosting Fox's new Saturday Night Comedy Hour. That is correct.

I can't with these people. I can't say, what are you doing until the day is done? But what they're doing is they're getting a nice paycheck. So he just told this young woman to basically get an only fan's account in order to deal with an economy that grifting ass wealthy white, men have been suckling off of for eons. And he said, you know what? Shake a tail feather. And then that'll bring in some coins.

I feel like you could do a good TikTok dance to shake a tail feather while showing off your feet. Yeah. Oh, God. I'm sorry. I know that we already did this skit, but fuck those guys. Yes. There's a person who wrote a book that Annie. and I reached out to and should have as a guest in an upcoming episode who points out that

like so many of these things like people complaining about the economy have been going on forever and that you can just conveniently blame anything. It's particularly one of his threads that attracted us was the one where he showed for 100 years every generation calls the next one lazy. Yeah. Do you remember his name, Andy? I don't. Yeah, I don't either.

I feel like this is always that thing of like, it's like, hmm, when did this really start happening? Oh, right. It's that Reagan guy that really accelerated this. And yet they're going to pretend it's Biden. Yeah. I was going to say you can't blame Reagan except Trump sometimes does. All right.

So for our final clip, we have this very boring Republican and Democratic primary this year since we know who's going to win the landslides. But the vice presidential race to be Trump's dauby is a fierce competition of idiocy. Earlier this week, we had the least Stefanix entry where she echoed Trump calling the January 6th insurrectionist. hostages. And then we had Nancy Mace trying to please Emperor Cheeto Jesus by telling Hunter Biden. He has no balls at a hearing yesterday. But this year on Jesse Waters' stupid parade is really the chef's kiss of desperation. All Jesse all the time on us. Clearly. Clearly. You just love your namesake, don't you? Solidarity. Solidarity. Because Donald Trump and every

member of his family follows the law in this country, which is what we're about. And yet today it's complete hypocrisy. Was that Nancy Mace? That was Nancy Mase saying the Trump family follows the law. Oh my God. Like what

law is she talking about? Didn't Jared Kushner's daddy go to jail? Right? Like, what are you talking about? Motherfucker is up against 91 charges him damn cell. The Trump University was shut down for their grifting-ass ways. Like, you're about to have to pay out quarter of a billion dollars.

Like, what are you talking about? And it's not just him because it's the Trump org that's on trial. That's the kids, too. And by kids, I mean spawn because I don't think that they were birthed. Like, what the fuck? All right. I have a hypothesis here. Maybe she's right.

She's talking about Murphy's law because every. that's gone wrong, could go wrong, has gone wrong. Well done. Tina Wyn is a national correspondent for Puck covering the world of Donald Trump and the American Right. And she's the author of the excellent new book, The Maga Diaries, My Surreal Adventures, Inside The Right Wing and How I Got Out. The book is out Tuesday and she joins me now.

Tina, thanks so much for being here. Thanks so much for having me. I'm really excited. Absolutely. I know. It's great to talk to you. Okay. So in the authors note at the beginning of the book,

You say, this is a book about life in a very, very weird political gray zone. Explain what you mean by that. Whenever people ask me how it is that I can cover the American right the way that I do, whether it's like I know a lot of things that people don't know or like I'm not killing myself because of frustration. I tell them, you know what? I was a conservative activist when I was younger. And then they go like, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait.

You're a woman of color and your parents are refugees and you grew up in Boston. and you went to an elite prep school, like, how? What the hell? How? And for some reason, I think my history in right-wing activists and politics and journalism has made me not just good at reporting on conservatives and the right, but also, like, weirdly emotionally connected. And I just feel so much internal conflict over the idea of going back and reporting on this thing I grew up in as an objective,

journalist and realizing, wait, like, this was a formative part of my years, and there's also so much loyalty and, like, hatred towards mainstream media whenever the media reports on the right. Like, am I okay? Is this okay to do? And you know what? I've kept doing it. And I think there's a, I think I have a pretty good reason to do it. But that internal tension is still there. And that is the gray zone, man. I'm sure I don't know what you're talking about. There was something that struck me as I was reading this book beyond the fact that I kept cringing as a lot of the same names or a lot of the names of people and institutions that you dealt with. I also dealt with. But there was an interesting sort of facet to this where as you were writing about your own personal history with the conservative movement going to Claremont-McKennon College, internships, et cetera, with George Mason University's Institute for Humane Studies, working at the Daily Collar, dating,

Chuck Johnson, which I did not know. But as you were writing all of that, it was like you were writing the prehistory of MAGA. Kind of really was. Like, I entered the conservative world thinking it was like a pretty pure place that wanted to preserve the ideals of the founding fathers and believed in, I guess, the libertarian moment of the time of free minds, free markets. What I started noticing was that on the ground level, there were a bunch of people who were kind of willing to do whatever it took in order to get one up over the liberals and that they

were being rewarded for their behavior. There were people at the Daily Caller who was like that and Chuck Johnson as I tracked his career from afar ended up becoming like that. And the moment that Trump, one, became a political force to be reckoned with and two, openly engaged with this world. The more I was like, oh, oh, this is not good. I saw him go on Info Wars, I think. at some point in 2016. And my first thought was, that's really smart of him. He's got a big audience of three million people. Not, oh my God, what's an insane thing for presidential candidates to do.

Right. No, absolutely. And there's a quote early on in the book that seemed to point at the fact that MAGA is not necessarily a revolution, but rather something that's been brewing in the conservative movement for a long time. And I thought it was a really interesting quote. You write, at its core, the conservative movement wants to master and restruct America's civil institutions, the free press, the judicial system, the educational system,

democratically elected legislatures and elections in the presidency down to the local school boards, and they are very good at it. And all of that sort of flowed into, as conservatism, sort of morphed into MAGAism, that is how, that's how all of that happened. This didn't come out of nowhere. It was basically, it seemed to be what you're saying. I honestly think that the conservative movement just did not have an immune system. for populism. I think when you and I came up through it, there was a really strong adherence to those like Reagan-esque conservative beliefs of like free market values, free trade, you know, religious liberty and such. And then when the base that they relied on was like, actually,

we kind of like populism instead. Let's do some populism. The channels that this movement built over time just like suddenly got co-opted. Absolutely. And yeah, not just by like randos from the outside who came in or like people who were already inside and were now incentivized to act even more crazy. But, you know, people who were like, okay, our choices either fight this movement, but we feel like we keep losing. And, you know, if we duke this out to the bitter end, we're going to just lose our communities, our livelihoods, the thing that we worked in since we were in college. Or you just kind of suck it up and go along with the flow. and I think it's easier in the movement to do the latter.

Yeah, and that's sort of what I'm saying is that like a lot of the people we hear about today and that we've heard about, you know, since 2015, 2016, as Trumpists or part of the Magar World, they were there earlier on, you know, the Steve Bannons and the people like that. They didn't just appear out of nowhere. And so talk about the conservative networks that are set into pulling young people because you and I know all about them, but I'm not sure people realize how extensive they are and how many of the names that we do here now actually came out of them. Oh, yeah. In the 1960s or so, the conservative movement just kind of like comes into being primarily as a reaction to Lyndon

Johnson in the Great Society, this idea that communism is like infiltrating all of the American institutions that they held dear at the time, but especially academia. And what they were trying to do was find young conservatives who they wanted to cultivate into leaders. And like, here's how old the conservative movement is. Mitch McConnell was a young, was someone in the Leadership Institute when he was a high school in college. Right. And he is so old now. But like it's not so much that they capture them and then mold them into being this person. It's that they like find a whole bunch of people who are liberty minded and, you know, throw money at them and bring them to summer camps. I describe one in the book that's literally a journalism camp for libertarians.

And eventually the more zealous and the more hardcore or talented the student they find is, the more they will make sure that person has a great career. I was kind of shocked by how many important people would just give their business cards to me and be like, let's get coffee. At some point I think I got Heidi Cruz's business card and she was like, you're very promising. Let's hang out soon. when you're really young, that access is sort of amazing and you feel really indebted to these people,

but you're also a little bit naive at the time and you're like, oh my God, I just want to make you proud. Absolutely. Yeah, then over time it becomes your entire life. No, absolutely, because it gives you like a sense of belonging and not you necessarily at Claremont, but, well, or maybe you at Claremont, but, you know, for conservative or libertarian kids at colleges is that where generally the students are, you know, majority, liberal or left, it does. It fosters this sense of belonging in the sense that you're not alone. You want to be part of that feeling. You know, and then again, like you said, it becomes this tremendous pipeline to get jobs and make connections

and all of that. It's like a conservative LinkedIn. One of the things that I think always gets missed whenever people report on things like CPAC or Turning Point or whatever is like the amount of networking that goes on there. It's not just people going to a convention to see Donald Trump speak. That's like facile. It is you go there, you hang out with a whole bunch of friends. There are a bunch of booths there being like, do you want an internship with the Leadership Institute or a Federalist Society or Heritage or like what have you? Brochures are out. You can ask them questions. I think when I was younger, I definitely picked up a whole bunch of business cards from each one of those booths when I was searching for another job. And like, it's a career fair.

It's not a party zone. It's literally, let's invest in our own futures going on. Who is John Elliott? Boy. John Elliott, I think he's the apex example of what the worst thing that could happen in conservative movements can be. So he was the mentor who was appointed to me at the IHS journalism summer camp that I went to. And after I did my internship that summer, he sent me an email going to. you've been selected to be in the IHS mentorship program, and I am here to help guide your career

to become successful, and I will link you up with people and look over your resume and polish your cover letters. And by the way, maybe don't apply to Andrew Sullivan's internship, but apply to this one instead. Over time, I started realizing that he kept trying to nudge me towards jobs that weren't journalism at all. They just seem to be factories for people to write anti-democrat news under the guise of being a journalist's institution. And so that was actually a huge reason of why I left. And fast forward to about 2018, 2019, I opened Splinter the news site. And then I see this massive article about how he had been secretly finding people in those internship pools who, he thought were like sympathetic to white nationalism and then cultivating their careers in a very

different way than he cultivated mine. And like, he was so central to a lot of people's growths into the world of white nationalism that he was literally the center of this email group called Morning Hate, where it was a whole bunch of other conservative journalists who were secretly white nationalists. And they were all brainstorming ways to get their ideas into mainstream conservative outlets because those are online publications and they need so much content and if you throw a couple of like paleo pawn ideas into the bloodstream,

that's pretty cool, you can do that. No one's going to say no because you snuck it in under the radar. And like they're also making Hitler references and coming up with really creative slurs against minorities that I don't think people have really ever heard of. And yeah. And like one that really should, shocked me, and I was just spending so much time going, like, wait, was I also secretly a Nazi?

All of these people came out of that group, too, like, Lachlan Marque, who was at Axios, Rachel Beatty, who now co-authors Politico, playbook. But I was talking to someone on the Dem side about this and explaining this system, and he was like, it sounds like he was sifting for zealots. And I was like, that is the perfect metaphor. Yeah, it's absolutely incredible. And this is a guy who, just for people who don't know, he was with, you know, you mentioned IHS. That's George Mason University's Institute for Humane Studies, which is like a reputable conservative slash libertarian sort of organization. I mean, I entered a journalism contest when I was in college that they were running. As I'm reading your book, I'm like, I'm like, holy shit. And this is a guy, I mean,

they were using, I think what would the code word for Hitler was our friend? Yes, exactly. And Trump's code word was our friend's son. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that is the word. worst thing that can happen to that movement. And I think that's sort of endemic of what happened to the movement under Trump, which is like there were people in it who were using the networks to their advantage for like really messed up reasons. But they were flying under the radar the entire time. And I think, and like the people who were funding the movement and had the most influence in the movement at the time just like did not know that these were the forces that they were like platforming, cultivating, giving the power to do whatever it is that they were secretly trying to

do. Like, the Koch brothers were not paying attention to what was happening at IHS. Right. They were not listening to John Elliott run a seminar. And they certainly didn't read his emails to the students who he thought were white nationalists. Right. No, it's just absolutely incredible. And then there was an interesting little section in the book where you write about discovering just how important Christianity is to MAGA. And that's something I've talked to several guests about. And I've been sort of pushing here as well. I think it's become more and more obvious from Trump. speech is now, then, you know, if you look at Trump speeches now versus Trump's speeches circa 2016 or even 2020, the religious imagery and the I am retribution or I am your vengeance and all of this has become so much more pushed to the front. Talk about how Amanda Moore,

who also a former new abnormal guest, kind of hippedy to this. I did not grow up Christian. Like, I was Buddhist growing up. I sort of treated. Christianity as like a really interesting topic of study, but not so much the cornerstone of my community and upbringing. And we're sitting in a like bar at some point and she's talking to me about how she infiltrated a conference called The Reawaken Tour. It was so religious that the pastor who ran that conference was not even letting Clout Hub or any of these other conservative media outlets in because he believed that all media was evil. And these women started preying over her broken arm in tongues.

And, like, that was sort of the environment that she had grown up in. And the more I explored this world, the more I was like, okay, wow, they actually think that there's something apocalyptic that's going to happen to America because Joe Biden stole the election. And it was specifically because they believed that Joel Biden stole the election from Trump. There was one point in the book, too, that I went to a Mike Lindell conference. And he was supposed to show that the election was stolen because he hacked a Dominion voting machine or something. And it was supposed to show that China had sent data packets to mess with the results.

The results did not show that, but people were literally praying that the results would show them that the election had been stolen. Like people were literally offering prayers and asking questions. And that was academically, I understand that this is part of a certain type of Christian. Christianity that believes in signs importance and having a much more direct connection with God that can be divined through symbolism. Emotionally and just like instinctually, it is still something that I don't quite fully grasp. But all I can really say is that there is an awful lot more. There's an awful lot more of it. Yeah.

I just think it's so important because we hear it a lot now. We see, you know, Mike Flynn, when he gives speeches, talks in religious terms. And it's important to understand that when these people, when they talk about Satan and when they talk about demons, they're not being metaphorical. At one point I go to a institution called the Patriot Church in the middle of like Eastern Washington. And the pastor there who is like a pretty big deal, Maga pastor and showed up on a January 5th rally before at the Capitol. It was literally talking about how there was an evil spiritual darkness that had descended upon the country. And the stolen election was part of it, but then there is also these examples he was bringing up about trans issues and how they were coming for the kids and how TikTok was rotting their children's brains. And Joe Biden and Kamala Harris were like like Ahab and Jezebel who had rigged an election in order to steal Nabos Vineyard from him.

Just the way that they were presenting the direction America was going in under Biden. The picture they portrayed was quite apocalyptic. And here's something I don't think was really quite appreciated by a lot of coverage of this, which is exactly how deeply impactful COVID shutting down churches was to a lot of voters. Because the moment that a governor says, no, you can't go to church on Sundays because of this virus, that you're not even quite sure is real. And also you have to wear these masks and your businesses have got to be closed. And just losing that cornerstone of your community because of something you're not even sure is true,

but because someone in Washington tells you so is just like so deeply frightening and traumatic that if someone comes along and says, yeah, maybe this is the work of Satan. You're more inclined to be like, yeah, probably. Yeah, absolutely. No, I think I think you nailed it there. I think a lot of people who are not regular churchgoers very much undervalue how important, that, well, just what you said, the fact that by government fiat, you could not go to church on Sunday, how that read to that segment of the country that is churchgoing and, you know, and that's part of their normal community and everything. I want to end sort of the way you end the book with Tucker Carlson. What do you make of his current incarnation? There is a apocryphal story that I heard out of Weekly Standard World about a dinner that Tucker attended with Christopher Hitchens, RIP.

And Hitchin said something along the line of don't ever do television. It brings out the worst in you. And yeah, I recognize the Tucker that I knew back at The Daily Caller. I recognize what television and fame at that level and in that format has done to him. He doesn't seem so different to be quite honest. He has changed to fit the world that currently exists. And I think that says more about the world than it does about Tucker. That's really interesting.

I say similar things to that Hitchens line all the time. I mean, I've seen it in action and I see it going on right now with people I knew at Fox and what they've become as they've gotten more fame and just decided that's the audience they're going to play to and it's going to get them rich and get them fame. And it's just bad news. Tina, thanks so much for being here. The book is outstanding. It's called The Maga Diaries, My Surreal Adventures, Inside the Right Wing and How I Got Out. It is out on Tuesday. great read. It's a zippy read. It's like a fun read. I know. Isn't it weird? No, it's great because

it's written in like a very conversational style. It's just a really fun read. So I encourage all of my listeners to go out and buy it. Tina, thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate it. Thanks for sharing your cursed knowledge with me. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of the new abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend and keep the conversation going. This podcast is a Daily Beast production with production by Jesse Cannon and Seamus Calder. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at

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