The Daily Beast Podcast - Prison Helping Massive Ghislaine Coverup for Trump

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

Sam Mangel, a former Federal prison inmate and current prison consultant, takes the Beast’s Joanna Coles inside Ghislaine Maxwell’s unusual life in a Texas prison camp. Sentenced to 20 years for sex trafficking, Maxwell is receiving unprecedented privileges and security. Mangel explains how other inmates react, the strict lockdowns during secret visits, and why her celebrity inmate treatment is frustrating staff and fellow prisoners. He also explores speculation about her potential early release via a possible deal with the Trump administration. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The other inmates either have daughters, many of them have daughters, that are of the same age as the daughters that Ms. Maxwell was convicted of abusing. Also, and this is a little bit more serious, many of the women in that facility were abused themselves, had abusive relationships, but were the victims of sexual abuse. So again, imagine you're in this, what could be a pressure cooker environment, and you see another inmate that's getting this special. treatment that is convicted of a charge of something that you were the victim of. So there is a lot of frustration amongst the inmates, and rightly so because of that. I'm Joanna Coles. This is the

Daily Beast podcast, and we have a riveting conversation today for you about what it's like being in prison alongside Gillen Maxwell. And it's particularly timely to talk about this now, because Not only as Gillesne Maxwell, who you will remember, was sentenced to 20 years for sex trafficking after being Jeffrey Epstein's partner in literal crime. It's particularly timely because next week is the publication of Virginia Joufrey's memoir, Nobody's Girl, which is her memoir of surviving abuse. and what really led to a tragic life and resulted in her committing suicide earlier this year. Sam Mengle ended up serving time in jail himself as a white-collar criminal. He was involved in an insurance fraud, but he left jail and set up a consultancy. And his clients have included Steve Bannon, Peter Navarro, and various other high-profile white-collar inmates.

Now, of course, Gillen Maxwell is not a white-collar inmate. She was found guilty of sex trafficking. But she's now in a prison camp alongside Elizabeth Holmes from Theranos, a real housewife, and several white-collar criminals. So we got into it in detail about what their daily life is like and how she's become this celebrity inmate, this trophy inmate, that everybody else. in the prison is trying to avoid in case they get caught up in her poisonous wake. So Sam, let's get into it. Can you start by explaining to us how unusual it is for someone who's

been sentenced like Gillen Maxwell to 20 years for sex trafficking is in a, essentially a camp, Brian prison in Texas? Sure. So in the Bureau of Prisons, there's something called a public safety factor. When someone is sentenced, or actually before they're sentenced, they do a pre-sentence report. And in that report, it lists their criminal history, if there's any violence, drug use, and specifically, their charge. Based upon a public safety factor, they are designated. So there's a central office for the Bureau of Prisons in Grand Prairie, Texas, that takes every single thing. incoming inmate and everyone that's currently in custody and determines where they should serve their time. There are times when people can be moved from one level of security to another. In the case of Ms. Maxwell, she had two public safety factors on her. One was the easy one to play with, which is the length of time remaining in her sentence. She had a 20-year sentence.

in order to qualify for a camp or a minimum security facility, you have to have 10 years or less remaining on your sentence. Wow. I've had clients with 11 years, 12 years. Sometimes you can get that waived, and that is typically the easiest of the public safety factors to waive. On the opposite end of the spectrum is the hardest public safety factor to waive. And until now, I've never seen waived, which is a conviction for a,

sex crime. Any type of sexual pornography, anything involving a sexual act is the most serious, or one of the most serious public safety factors someone can have on them. And that specifically precludes an individual from serving their time in a camp. But one step further, once their sentence is over, they are also limited as far as the amount of halfway house time they can have or community time. So it's a very severe restriction. I have never, and I've helped thousands of people, and we've had a few people with violations of the Mann Act, something like Combs has. They will not waive that public safety factor. So getting a chance for to a camp, it's crazy. Right. This really is crazy. And also not only did she have a 20-year sentence, but it was for sex trafficking children, girls.

Which lends itself to a whole different dilemma of where she is and how the other inmates feel about serving time with her, how the inmates' families feel like serving time with her. But right now, specifically, and I give tremendous kudos to Josh Smith and Bill Marshall who run the Bureau of Prisons. I think they've come in, really tried to clean everything up, get things moving in the proper direction. So it's my understanding that the directive to move her to a minimum security camp, Brian, came from well above their heads. It's the most fascinating story. And of course, the juxtaposition of Virginia Jufre, one of Epstein's victims who killed herself earlier this year, and the publication of her memoir that she'd spent the last sort of 18 months working on. It's fascinating.

But first, Sam, you have clients in Bryan prison alongside Gillesne Maxwell. Now, I know that all the prisoners have been told they cannot talk about her. But I know you've talked to some of their relatives. What are you hearing from people in the same jail as Gellon Maxwell about how things have changed since she's come in? as basically a trophy prisoner. I've helped many high profile people. I serve time in Miami with Peter Madoff, Bernie's brother. And the sentiment that I'm getting from...

Well, that's a whole new episode on its own. I am dying to talk to you about that. But let's stay focused on Maxwell and then promise me you will come back and let's talk about the Madoffs. Absolutely. So there's two general sentiments amongst the inmates that are there. In many instances, when you have a high-profile individual that enters the facility, there's a lot of fascination.

I've had, you know, two people that are currently in the president's inner circle that serve time. And there's a lot of fascination. So that's Steve Bannon and Peter Navarro, correct? Correct. And when they go into a prison or anybody of that type of stature or fame, inmates tend to be very curious. They want to almost live vicariously through them. And many of the staff tend to be very deferential to them because they understand who they are and who their friends might be. In this case with Ms. Maxwell, it is completely different.

They were warned that the inmates and the staff were warned prior to her coming in that under no circumstances are they to disclose anything that happens with her or to her or surrounding her during her time. at at Brian. In one case, there was one inmate that told somebody, a journalist, something about her. And this young lady was a friend of one of my clients, and she had a very short sentence. Keeping in mind, prison phones and email are subject to being monitored. So you know for sure they have an AI system that is just looking for the name Maxwell. And as soon as this other inmate made the statement, she was whisked off that night to Houston Federal Detention Center, which is a maximum security facility. So the sentiment is one of walking on ice. They're afraid, as the staff is afraid, to do anything wrong because they know that in order for how to have

gotten there, strings at the highest possible level had to have been pulled. And the They see, and we can talk about some of the things that they're experiencing while she's there, from her visits to how her meals are being handled. And they're truly walking on eggshells. The other sentiment, which I find fascinating, is they, the inmates, feel that she is being treated more like a guest in a hotel than an inmate in a federal prison. So she's been treated as a sort of celebrity prisoner, basically. She's getting special treatment. Everybody else is feeling nervous.

One person who let something slip has already been moved to a harsher jail. So this is not someone you want to mess with. This is, at least from my clients, they're steering clear of her. They want to stay as far away from her. And they're actually afraid to socialize with her. Because you never know, especially in a prison environment, what could happen, not just between, the inmate and Ms. Maxwell, but between the inmate that's socializing with her and other inmates.

It's guilt by association. And there's tremendous fear and anxiety. So I know this is a much lower security prison, and we think of it as a camp. Does that mean it's much less violent? Are there violent prisoners there? Because, of course, one's mindful of what happened to Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, nobody knows did he commit suicide or was he actually murdered in jail? But the truth is, as anybody will tell you, and you know from your own experience, jails are full of people who are violent and frequently mentally ill. So is it, is she, I understand it's lower security, but are there still violent prisoners in Brian? No, in order to qualify for a minimum security camp, You can't have any prior history of violence or a charge of violence.

If you commit violence, get into a fight while you're at the camp, you are immediately removed and sent to a higher level security, a low, like Tallahassee, where she had just come from. Okay. So there's, you know, there might be, we'll say gangs, but groups of women that segregate and stick together. but there are no gangs, there is no violence. You don't see any sexual activities that are going on in camps. A campus community custody. As an example, if an inmate wants to leave, they can leave. Very rarely, I mean, the gates are open.

They become a fugitive, but they can leave. There are programs that, a nursing program at that camp that is offered to an to get an associate degree in nursing. Can you imagine being a patient and waking up to discover that the nurse peering over your bed at you is Gillesne Maxwell? You would really think you had lost it. You mentioned a visit that someone had talked to you about and that was referred to in an excellent piece in the Wall Street Journal about conditions at Bryan since Gillesne Maxwell

was checked in there. Do we have any sense of who this visitor was? because the entire prison was apparently put on lockdown while Gillen Maxwell had a special visit from someone. Do we know who it was? Not only was a put on lockdown. It was put on maximum lockdown. So explain the difference.

What is the difference? So in a traditional lockdown, they still let people that have jobs, kitchen staff, food services, certain orderly positions, people that have certain jobs, they allow them out of the unit to continue doing those jobs. The lockdown is typically the inmates that are not working are confined to the dormitories. In this situation, everyone was locked down.

The kitchen staff was closed. Everything was closed. It's my understanding that they brought her out to the chapel. And the only thing that one of my clients was able to see was that she went into the chapel, but whoever was visiting her came in through the back of the chapel. Apple. So you couldn't even see the type of cars they drove in on. So was there any speculation inside this prison camp as to who the visitor was? Purely speculation. And I have no way of confirming this. But in order to get a visit like that, it had to be somebody very, very high up in the government, possibly also with some kind of

security protection. And keep in mind, I've had clients that have had very high ranking, government officials and family of government officials visit them in prison. And we had to make special accommodations for those visitors. But they still came in during regular visiting hours. Yes, they were given a separate room off the visiting room, but accommodations were made so it didn't lock up the whole facility. In this instance, which again, I've never heard of before, everything was locked down and her visitors came into a back entrance so that no one can see who they were and how they came in. I wonder if it was perhaps the number two in the Justice Department,

Todd Blanche, formerly Donald Trump's personal lawyer, or one of his army of personal lawyers, who was checking in as a sort of matriety having organized her transfer of prisoners. Perhaps he was checking in to check she liked the room service. Can you tell us a little bit about what life is like in the prison camp there? You mentioned that you could train to be a nurse. But I gather there is a sort of in-house beauty salon that prisoners can go to and is run by other prisoners. What's the food like?

Give us a sense of daily life there. Lights go on during the week. At six in the morning, you're expected to get up. If you want to go to breakfast, go to breakfast. If you have a morning job, you go to your job. You make your bed. You clean your area. There are no cells.

There are no guard towers. There are typically little pods that have a, that in them. If you have no job, you're allowed outside, the running track, television, board games, whatever you might do. I believe there's pickleball there. There's all sorts of activities from six in the morning until nine o'clock at night, except for what they call count when they do a national census. If you have a job, you're expected to go to your job, and when you finish your job, you come out. And what are the sorts of, what are the sorts of of jobs that people do? Is that like working in the prison library, which is always one of those

things in orange is the new black? So I had a client, yes. One of the best jobs I can get for a client is what's called a library orderly or a law library orderly. Depending upon where they are, it's either better air conditioned or better heated and they're in the library. They put books away. But it's a good job, especially typically for older people. There's a puppy program that, The women can train puppies. They live with the puppies, and they train that be service dogs. She was denied that program. There is an off-premises nursing program.

She was denied that program. There are other programs, i.e. cosmetology that you're referencing, where women can learn some sort of vocational training so that when they get out. Because remember, if you're in a camp, you're getting out soon. You're at the end of your prison term. So they try to teach women some sort of vocational training. In men's camps, they might have commercial truck driving and things like that. So it's a very relaxed atmosphere. One of the biggest problems in a minimum security facility is boredom.

There just isn't enough to do. She can take classes. The other interesting thing, and I'm curious to know, is she getting first step back credits towards time off. With her sentence, you typically can't. but there are all sorts of exceptions being made. So there are classes like parenting, stress management, conflict management that the government offers to inmates to help get time off their sentences. Sam, hold on one second.

We're just going to take some words from our sponsors. And I'm back with Sam Mengel, a former white-collar prisoner who's turned prison consultant talking about the conditions that Gillen Maxwell finds herself experiencing in Brian prison. Are there juveniles in this particular prison? Because of course she's convicted of sex trafficking. And as we heard at her trial, lots of the women or lots of the girls were underage. Are there juveniles in Brian prison? So you can't be a juvenile under 18 and be in a federal adult facility.

It typically had to be over 18. I know when I was Miami, there was one young man that was 19 or 20. So I'm quite sure that there are young women in there. Certainly women the age of Ms. Maxwell's victims. But there's an interesting sentiment that is happening there. The other inmates either have daughters. money of them have daughters that are of the same age as the daughters that Ms. Maxwell was convicted of abusing. Also, and this is a little bit more serious, many of the women in that facility were abused themselves,

had abusive relationships, but were the victims of sexual abuse. So again, imagine you're in this, what could be a pressure cooker environment, and you see another inmate that's getting this special treatment that is convicted of a charge of something that you were the victim of. So there is a lot of frustration amongst the inmates, and rightly so because of that. That's a fascinating point and not one that I'd considered. When you're a well-educated criminal like Gillen Maxwell is, she went to Oxford, do they often end up taking on the cases of other inmates. I mean, is it possible that she can build up relationships with them

by trying to help them, you know, either on appeal or trying to get special treatment or whatever? I mean, is there a sense of an appetite among other prisoners to get her help on something like that, or are they really just staying away? So there are things called jailhouse lawyers. Well, typically your white cops, and many times there are lawyers in the prison.

There are lawyers who are inmates. Jailhouse lawyers are prolific throughout the system. They find a way to get paid through commissary or other ways, and they can be helpful to other inmates. I tend to doubt she's being asked to do any jailhouse legal work. Would inmates try to use her? I don't know what she has to offer because there are many, many other very intelligent

women. One of my clients is a physician. The other was a successful businesswoman. So I don't know why one would go to Ms. Maxwell as opposed to somebody else if they needed help. Now, it's possible that other inmates think that she's going to get some form of clemency. And they think if they get close to her, maybe they'll also follow on her coattails. You never know what someone's thinking. I think it's a bit naive to think that. But, you know, it's a prison. And people are People have a lot of wishful thinking and other inmates have lots of time on their hands to do that thinking. So people come up with all sorts of, you know, plans and things inside. I do believe, though, that the majority and certainly the more intelligent inmate population there is staying away from her.

Okay. By choice or by force. And what about the food in somewhere like, Brian? What is the food like? BOP has a standard menu. It's offered to every facility, every person throughout the system, to all 150,000 inmates. It is a standard menu. So every Thursday at lunchtime, you get baked chicken.

It does not vary. So what you get on Monday one week, you get on Monday the next week. If you're a vegetarian or vegan, instead of getting the meat product, you can get soy. If you are kosher or halal, they have kosher. and halal meals. But that's it. Now, in Miami, we had a salad bar, which was great, and I lived off the salad bar and what you can add to it in commissary. Plus, you find that the other inmates, the men or the women in prison that have been there for a long time, tend to become some of the most creative cooks that you can imagine, either using hot water or a microwave. I often tell

people, I think I had some of the best key lime pie that someone made in the Philadelphia detention center in a microwave using cookies. So there's a lot of creativity and other inmates do make things to sell while there. I remember Martha Stewart when she was in jail, I think, picking various leaves that were growing through the cracks of the prison yard and turning them into, she said, I think, the most nutritious thing she managed to eat the whole time that she was there. So talk to us a little bit about the pressure on the staff of having an inmate like Gillen Maxwell. Because we know how the staff at the Manhattan correctional facility where Jeffrey Epstein was held came under scrutiny after he was found unresponsive in his cell. No staff member wants to have any potential liability.

in something happening to her, whether by another inmate or by a simple accident of tripping and falling in the shower, because the perception of her getting hurt or injured or worse would be devastating, not only to the Bureau of Prisons, but they would be transferred to the detention center in Anchorage. There is an overwhelming... Is that the worst thing that can happen to as a prison officer, you're dispatched to Alaska? Or they can go to Guam. There's only two places. that they can send them.

At least one would be wool. But actually, interesting enough, now that they've terminated the union for the federal prison staff, they could potentially be fired. So no staff wants either the responsibility

or the concern of her getting hurt, again, whether by chance or another inmate. Because they know that the people that are watching this, or the pinnacle of the government.

And the risk of her being involved in a fray or hurting herself, you know, it happens. So there is, from what I understand, she takes showers privately. No, there are private showers in prison. It's not like you see on oranges in New Black where all the women stand under a group shower and stand around a pole. No, there are private showers, there are private bathrooms. But at the same time, it's an open area so women can come and go. It's my understanding she is being segregated.

She does take her meals, I'm told, privately. So there are certain things being afforded her that are typically never afforded any other, and yet alone high-profile needs. I've spoken to friends in London who've talked to her brother, Kevin, who has been telling people that she is under an incredibly tight guard and that this is almost suffocating for her. Do you think she's under 24-7 watch? Minim Security camps are typically very understaffed.

As an example, at Miami, there were at the time 400 inmates, and at night there was one guard. It's my understanding that not only do they have an exponentially higher number of guards and correctional officers on premises at all times, but they also have what's called a cert team, S-E-R-T team, which is special emergency response team, that is on-premises as well in case anything happens. If you remember about a week after she got there, there was gunfire right off of the campus. Right, outside of the prison. And they were very concerned that that had to do with her being there. It's my understanding it was just purely coincidental, but they are absolutely taking all sorts of additional. Precutions?

Yes, precautions, but there's a different protocol in place now with her. So, yes, it's probably, in fact, it probably definitely is the highest staffed prison camp in the Bureau of Prisons. It might even be the highest staffed. prison other than the Admax in Florence, Colorado, per capita, per in me. So, Sam, you've spent time in jail. You've worked with, as you say, hundreds of people who've gone to jail. Knowing what you know and knowing people who knew Jeffrey Epstein, do you believe he committed suicide or do you think he was murdered in jail? I'm not a conspiracy theorist. So I know, certainly, there is a, I was a, I was a.

in the Philadelphia Detention Center for six weeks when I was first sentenced. And I know what a high-level security facility is. And it can be terribly depressing. Now, granted, he was facing life in prison. I was not. I was facing five years. But it can be an overwhelming sense of pressure, strain, anxiety, depression. I do not believe that he was murk. Again, I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I believe that based upon what he was facing and knowing what the rest of his life would look like, he probably did commit suicide. To me, that would make sense, given his situation.

But again, I'm also not a conspiracy theorist. So, you know, I don't believe that our government went to the extent of silencing him, especially knowing that, you know, Ms. Maxwell is out and has the same information. Sam, we're going to take a quick break for some out. And I'm back with Sam Mengel, a prison consultant, talking about what it's like to be in jail alongside Gillen Maxwell. Well, it might not have been the government, right? I mean, as we discussed earlier, prisons are full of violent people who might have just taken against him or who might have been abused themselves. I saw someone get stabbed my second morning in Philadelphia, and it was scary.

There's no question. Violence does occur at higher. level facilities. Where Ms. Maxwell was prior to going to Bryant, Tallahassee. Tallahassee is a low security facility. That houses violent individuals, gang members. It houses sexual predators. It houses people that were sentenced to 50 years and finally got down to 20 years. And, you know, their crimes can be very, very overwhelming. And I truly, I truly, believe that once she started cooperating, the Bureau of Prisons had to move her. I understand why they moved her. And it made sense. She would not have been safe physically in Tallahassee.

But was the solution to move her to a prison camp, which, as you say, never normally takes people who've been convicted for 20 years for sex trafficking. And as you say, once you go to one of those prison camps. It's usually because you're towards the end of your sentence, not when you've still got 19 years to run. It was the only solution for the Bureau of Prisons if they wanted, if their goal was to keep her safe and alive. If they moved her to another low security, they would have had the same challenges. So part of this is just to keep her out of the presence of violent criminals. If they want to keep her safe and alive, yes. So she just has to avoid Elizabeth Holmes, who I gather is also a prisoner in Bryan with her machine to test blood.

She is a president. She is an inmate there, Jen Shaw from Real Housewives. Again, I have had over the past few years a number of clients that were inmates there. All professional, white collar, you know, doctors, lawyers, accountants that I prefer sending my clients there that qualify for the programs that they offer. I think it's one of the best female camps in the country. Right now, I would be a bit remiss to send my clients there. Oh, that's interesting. And if you were a betting man, would you, do you think she's going to stay there long? Or do you think there's already been, as many people suspect, a deal and that in a few months she'll be quietly released? If, again, purely speculation, I have no way of knowing for a fact.

I have to imagine that getting her to Bryant was the starting point to getting her out of custody, whether through commutation or pardon. It just seems to me that you don't move someone to that type of facility with this kind of protection and precautions if you're not overly concerned about her, her safety, and what she has to say and offer. So my guess and purely speculation is that at some point she will receive some form of clemency. And where do you think that leaves the victims of Gilles, Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein? Really upset. Not just the victims, the other inmates, anybody in the Bureau of Prisons that is serving time for, you know, any charge, yet alone a nonviolent charge that are there. And they see that she's going to get clemency.

help people with clemency all the time. We're very active in that space. But we would never accept a case when it comes to sexual act or charges at all. I think there's going to be quite a bit of animosity and anger. If you're a victim, a victim's family, I know if my daughter, I have a 30-year-old daughter. If she was the victim, God forbid, I can't tell you how angry I would be that the corporate is walking free. Sam Mengel, thank you very much for giving us your perspective on what an earth is going on there at Bryan Prison in Texas, where Gillen Maxwell was moved from a higher security jail in Tallahassee

after her two-day-long interview with Todd Blanche, the number two at the DOJ, a really remarkable story. Thank you so much and promise us you will come back and talk to us about your own experiences in jail and also Peter Madoff, what it was like having him as a fellow inmate. I would love to, Joanna. Thank you. Okay, thank you very much. And we'll come back to you if this story develops.

Great. Thank you. It's a highly unusual, almost unheard of for a prisoner with a sentence of 20 years for sex trafficking to be in a minimum security camp as Gillesne Maxwell is in Texas. And there's definitely a lot of feeling among certain people, including our regular colleague Michael Wolfe, that a deal has already been struck. And you heard from Sam just now that this is often a place

where people go to get ready to segue back into the world and to be a free person again. It seems unlikely the ever. Epstein victims would allow that to happen. And of course, we're still waiting for Mike Johnson to swear in Adelita Greva from Arizona so that Tom Massey and Roe Kana, who we had on the podcast two weeks ago, can get their vote to demand the release of the Epstein files. But as Michael Wolf keeps saying, it all comes back to Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. What else? Does Gillen Maxwell know?

And why? Why is she being given such preferential treatment? If you have been, thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to The Daily Beast and to our podcast, wherever you get your podcast. You can join the Daily Beast community on YouTube. And we appreciate your support. We're independent media.

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