The Daily Beast Podcast - Real Reason ABC Bowed to Trump on Kimmel: Wolff

Episode Date: September 19, 2025

Trump chronicler Michael Wolff joins the Beast’s Joanna Coles to explain why Donald Trump has chosen now to formalize his assault on the media. From the president’s feud with Jimmy Kimmel and Disney’s quiet capitulation, to Wolff’s surreal late-night ice cream with Trump in Beverly Hills, and even his own face projected onto Windsor Castle, this episode traces the strange intersections of power, ego, and greed. Along the way, they explore how MAGA’s loyalty to Trump is being tested by Trump’s ongoing Epstein scandal and his administration's formal push to silence free speech, evidenced by a dramatic drop in Trump’s approval ratings. Is Trump’s control over culture and politics starting to fray, or only tightening in new ways? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The MAGA position is release all the information about Jeffrey Epstein. The Trump position is, do not talk of Jeffrey Epstein. See and put his fingers in his ears, cover his eyes, no Jeffrey Epstein. So we are back. We're recording this on Thursday morning. Michael, have you recovered from your 200 feet projection of your face on Windsor Castle? You know, I think I'm going to live with it for the rest of my life. Okay, so yesterday, when we were talking, you said that you thought Trump was winning the war with the media. And I slightly pushed back and I thought you were being hyperbolic.

Literally two hours later, it was announced, ABC announced that Jimmy Kimmel's show, for those of you who don't know Jimmy Kimmel, for those of you listening in the UK or in Australia where we hear from and also Canada where we hear from people. all the time. Jimmy Kimmel is a late- The entire English-speaking world is at our feet. Okay, thank you. The entire English speaking world. I don't know if they're at our feet, but they're definitely sending us comments on YouTube and please keep them coming

because they mean a lot. Jimmy Kimmel, a late-night comedian on ABC, his show was being suspended indefinitely. And literally within, I would say, five minutes of that news going out, it felt a

if a chill had rippled across the entire of the United States. Okay, so, and he was specifically, what do we call an indefinite? He was specifically indefinitely suspended because of comments he made about Charlie Kirk. Right. And that has suddenly, Charlie Kirk has suddenly become the third rail of American political discourse. This does seem like a moment. of censorship, is it? Or is it simply a trade deal? Let's... Yeah, it is. But even before, absolutely, censorship fear, rank fear, everybody running

in the opposite direction of controversy, running in the opposite direction of Donald Trump's wrath and ire. But I just want to tell a sentimental story. about Jimmy Kimmel and Donald Trump, because that's where my Trump journey began in the spring of 2016, that I first interviewed Donald Trump in his political life in Jimmy Kimmel's green room. Trump was out in L.A. doing the Kimmel show,

and I was invited to watch him do the Kimmel show and then to talk to him in the green room. And so an interesting point that is now, you know, coming on 10 years ago. At that point, Kimmel and Trump were completely jocular with each other. I mean, the whole mood was, you're a star, I'm a star. We're both stars together. And we're both kind of enjoying this odd moment. of thinking that Donald Trump might be president, although at the same time we we understand that

that is still the most unlikely, the unlikeliest of outcomes. But very much, they very much got along. When I saw Trump afterward, he was delighted with Kimmel, delighted with his performance, of course, on Kimmel. And then actually, we spoke long into the night. We repaired to his house. in Beverly Hills and spent hours and hours each eating a tub of Hagenau's ice cream. But that's such a strange visual. And of course there is a Zellig-like story of you in Jimmy Kimmel's Green Room with Donald Trump. Totally. I mean, and then in the in the house, so he has this house in Beverly Hills, smack in the middle of Beverly Hills,

cross the street from the Beverly Hills Hotel, filled with kind of cast-off hotel furniture. And a refrigerator, when you open the door, it was just pint of Hagenas, Hagenas after pint of Hagenas. Can I ask what flavor? That was vanilla. Vanilla. Although he has switched over the course of the past 10 years, he now likes strawberry vanilla. But we digress from major media censorship.

At any rate, I follow this because the people around him are always reporting on his ice cream preferences. But he said, you know, open the door and said, you know, took out a point and he said, asked me, do you want one? I said, no. But he threw one at me anyway. So there we were, then sitting on the couch, eating our ice cream as we spoke long into the night. And what I, the point I want to make, other than this sentimental one of that's where my journey began, is that there, there is a difference that over the time, this time, he has, he has gone from a figure kind of, you know, I think, I think in. enjoying the whole idea of of his notoriety, of his rise, unexpected rise in politics, not taking it that seriously. And clearly over this time, that has fundamentally transitioned into

incredible defensiveness, an incredible anger, an incredible sense. of him against everybody else. And in this case, obviously, him against his old compatriot, show business compatriot, Jimmy Kimmel. And is he also against the people that work with him? Does that animus extend to people like J.D. Vance and Pete Hegseth? Well, it ultimately extends to everyone.

Without question. I mean, no one gets out of Donald Trump world alive. I think that's a reasonable given. But I also think this in terms of, you know, we are at this moment, Charlie Kirk is killed. And immediately thereafter, this becomes the rationale, the stated rationale for the Trump administration to crack down on the media. and on free speech, or as he says, leftist speech. This is not, there is nothing, there's, there's no pretense here. They have made this announcement.

J.D. Vance is, is out there, out there, shilling for this. But Trump, too, has made it clear. We are going to go after the, after the leftist media, leftist speech. So, and I don't, you know, and the way they went after Kimmel in this, in this instance, is that the, is that the FCC chair started to run, make, make, started to object to this. And, and that spread to affiliates. Affiliates are the, the, in the television stations that, that carry the, the, the, the Kimmel show. one of the big affiliates is in the middle of a merger, which they will need approval from that's next from the Trump administration. So therefore, they immediately came out and said, yes, we're not going to carry the Kimmel show. And then Disney, who owns ABC, the network that Kimmel is on, then they immediately announced this indefinite suspension. And that would have come

from the top, from the CEO, Bob Eiger. And, you know, and it's, I mean, you have to step back and say, here is Bob Iger, the billionaire CEO of the most powerful entertainment company in the world immediately with hardly a second thought, cowering before the desires of the Trump administration. Or is this a CEO? making a very practical decision that his stock has underperformed the S&P. He can't afford to lose Next Star as an affiliate or indeed Sinclair, which is another affiliate.

Both Nextar and Sinclair are conservatively led. And he's making a pragmatic business decision. Well, I think it's the same thing, six to one, half dozen of the other. I mean, he realizes that the ire of Donald Trump will be bad. for business. And so therefore, we submit to that. Now, I mean, it used to be not that long ago that media companies, because they are media companies, because they have to maintain a, no matter their shareholders' interests, there is their audience interest, there are many other stakeholders in a media company, and they have to maintain credibility. If you lose that,

then you lose the store would have been the old rationale on this. In this instance, now if you lose Donald Trump, you lose the store. I would be fascinated to be a fly inside Bob Iger's inbox this morning, also a man in his 70s, also a man who gave up power and gave up being CEO and then came back after a famous battle with the guy he put in to replace him, Bob Chapec. one of the reasons he gave for coming. Not a name that many people remember at this point, but very good. Well, but one of the reasons and one of the rationale for Bob Eager coming back was that Disney was beginning to lose the creative community.

The creative community, for the most part, loved Jimmy Kimmel. Jimmy Kimmel is a rare late-night television politician who actually lives in L.A. He makes pizza at home with Bob Eiger. They are personal friends. Also, let me point out. that he's one of the few late-night comedians who has been able to maintain the comic edge about Donald Trump. Other late-night comedians have veered off into outrage, and Kimmel has managed to maintain his focus on the absurdity.

Well, there's also John Stewart and John Oliver, right? And I think they're in outrage territory, not that I would necessarily. fault them. I mean, that's where we're all going to end up. But the ability to maintain that focus on absurdity is a comic touch, which I think Kimmel deserves an enormous amount of credit for. Well, what's also interesting is that Kimmel is very much thought of, I think, at Disney or ABC, as a team player. I mean, this is the guy that hosts the Oscars when nobody else will. I've been to the up front, the big ad festival where the TV companies turn up. and sell their future shows, and he's been a host of that and funny and taken, you know,

poke to advertisers and made the whole thing a show in a way that a lot of other networks can't do. So for them to sacrifice a team player like this also seems significant. But then Disney may go on to lose the creative community over this. I mean, I understand that they don't want to lose the Trump and they want FCC approval for whatever M&A they may have in their future. future. But this does feel like a moment. I do. And on a, if we put our, I mean, I began, I've spent most of my career as writing about the media. And if I put that, at least prior to writing about Donald Trump. And if I put that hat on, I would say that this is probably a

deeply, a, an unforced error. that will cost Bob Eiger. Likely, let me go on a limb here, it costs him his job. So interesting, because the person within Disney, who is thought likely to take over from him, is Dana Walden, probably the most powerful female executive in Hollywood, very much admired. And of course, the complexity here is that she is well known to be Carmelah Harris' best friend.

Grim. That's a, that's a, that's a, a, that's a, a, a grim corporate bit of politics. Um, but I think unless someone breaks from this, I think they'll both go down. This, this is a, this is, you know, there's a lot of things in the reaction to Trump, the, the, the reflexive reaction, the knee-jerk reaction. That's just serious, unthought out, knuckleheaded stuff. Um, and I, um, and I think. think that's a, that's a reflection of, of how, how afraid people are of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of just examine the dinner last night, the famous white tie dinner, which looked spectacular, I

will say, uh, watching it online and on television. Stunning flowers. Everybody dressed to the nines. Uh, one was very cognizant of Prince Charles's lapel full of medals. and Donald Trump having no medals. I'm sure he's going to come back and say, I want a jacket like that with some medals on it. But also around the table were some of America's most senior executives. You had Tim Cook from Apple, Satchinadella from Microsoft, Sam Altman from Open AI.

What are they thinking? What are they thinking? I mean, you know, I can only interpret this. I mean, first thing, Tim Cook, shows up at all of these things. The, you know, again, the billionaire CEO of arguably the most important company in the world. And also sitting next to Tiffany Trump, I was like, what are they talking about? Why is he doing this?

It's, I don't. So I can only assume that they get all to get together and say, my God, this guy, Trump is easy to play. And all it requires is us to do some ritual bows and say some baloney and then we get what we want. And isn't it a great day for business? I mean, that's the only thing that I can assume. It cannot possibly be that they think Donald Trump is anything other than a clown, a fool, a charlatan. I mean, I know that's what they think. That is what literally what everyone who comes in.

contact with Donald Trump thinks, even his supporters. So again, that's, that's it. But and then the Brits on their part, you know, who are desperate for a trade deal. So everybody got together and decided, okay, you know, we're going to, we're going to treat Donald Trump as the real king. Michael, hold on one second. We're just going to take some messages. And we're back with Michael Wolfe talking about Donald Trump. One of the things that people always say about an encroaching autocracy, and they always talk about Putin like this, is that when Putin first took over, the thing that got cancelled first,

was a puppet show, a comedic puppet show on Russian television. And you talked a couple of weeks ago on the podcast about this being a frightening moment, and this could actually be what autocracy looks like, that it's not people with Jack Boots marching down the street. It is Jimmy Kimmel being cancelled. Jimmy Kimmel of all people, you know, in third place as a late-night comedian on ABC. I mean, and it would be wrong to start there to mark this at the beginning. It has begun long before this, or it began almost began before he actually

came into office for his second term, and that was forcing ABC into a settlement. That was $15 million that went into Trump's pocket. It was one of those things that certainly had they gone to a trial, ABC would have won. Actually, they would never even have gotten to a trial. But ABC, again, ABC, which is owned by Disney, so this is not, this is the Kimmel, The Kimmel issue is not is not the first issue that ABC has folded on. And they folded on the Stephanopoulos issue. And then CBS, which is, was in the process of a merger with David Ellison, who was the Nepo baby son of Larry Ellison, who viz,

who vise with Elon Musk for the title of richest man in the world. Right, the founder of Oracle and soon to be owner of TikTok. Right. So they did, in order, CBS believed that in order to facilitate that deal, they had to do, they had to, they had to settle. Because Trump had stood 60 minutes because he didn't like the way. he thought that they had edited an interview with Kamala Harris in two favorable a way. The trailer was different to what they actually put out in the interview, right? Yes. Again, you know, another's absolutely frivolous lawsuit that Trump would have lost. But because of this, because CBS was highly aware of the pressure he could bring that might block,

this merger, they settle. Now, we should also add that the Ellison's father and son are now trying also to buy Warner Discovery, which would make them, you know, by far the largest media company in the world, although having said that, I think Disney may still be larger. But Larry Ellison also, let's remember. remember, has been a very key and ardent supporter of Donald Trump. Well, I may well get the ownership of TikTok, right, which we're expecting to hear Donald Trump is speaking to Xi Jinping tomorrow.

And in theory, he's going to come away with a solve for the TikTok issue. It's going to have American ownership. So just, yeah, so let's just imagine. First thing, we have, we have a media business, you know, most of the major news, that would include most of the major news outlets in the country, already running scared of Donald Trump. I mean, scared. I mean, they are bowing down.

Trump brings pressure. They fold. Now that's, now we put that together with the fact that the, that the Ellison family, passionate supporters of Donald Trump are about to corner the media. a market. Well, and they're about to own CBS, well, they do own CBS news. And if they buy Warner Brothers Discovery, they will have CNN. There you go. So two significant news channels. Yeah, no, I mean, this is a, this is a, I mean, put put up the red flag at this. This is a, this is a, this is a, this is a moment which I think we will return to. So Governor Newsome,

who is emerging as the loudest voice on the Democratic side is saying Donald Trump has got dementia, grandpa take your meds, his social media is cutting through to some extent. There's gerrymandering going on in Texas, in various other places. What is the sort of moment of hope here for the Democrats? Well, believe me, Joanna, it's hard to find one. Were we to dig deep and hope that there is hope, we would say that Donald Trump's numbers are soft, certainly, falling arguably. The economy is heading into, you know, certainly the skies are dark thing. there's, I think across the board, you can argue that the news for Donald Trump is not getting better.

And let's not, we should not forget Jeffrey Epstein or as Trump says Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. So we could, I think it is still a very good possibility, even a likelihood that the Democrats will take the House. of representatives back during in the midterm election. And if that happens, it's a significantly different ballgame. All right. We've got lots of questions and lots of comments from people that have come in. One of the observations people have is that J.D. Vance and the crew around Donald Trump seem almost giddy with power.

Certainly J.D. Vance stood in for Charlie Kirk hosting his podcast earlier this week. And he's been out there. I think people want to know where is MAGA on the free speech issue? Because there's been a lot of pushback against Pam Bondi who came out against hate speech. The First Amendment is very much a core of MAGA. And there's been a lot of pushback against Pambondi. So where is MAGA actually on this issue? No, I think probably MAGA is somewhat divided on this issue,

theoretically Charlie Kirk was a great free speech advocate. Now, in his name, the Trump administration is attacking free speech. So it would be curious to see where they come out on that. But there are also other issues that are kind of roiling MAGA at this point. Obviously, Jeffrey Epstein. And that's almost binary. the MAGA position is release all the information about Jeffrey Epstein. The Trump position is do not talk of Jeffrey Epstein, see, see, and put his fingers in his ears,

cover his eyes, no Jeffrey Epstein. So that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, difficult, a difficult, it has been difficult. It will get more and more difficult. And then, and then, but then there's other, uh, that's a difficult. the the Vax issue is also is also difficult because because there are many Trump supporters, but traditional Republicans that are going, hey, wait a minute, we want, we want vaccinations are a seminal accomplishment of the modern world. What are you doing here? Can you really subscribe to

RFK Jr. And a lot of a lot of traditional Republicans, but, but Trump supporters also saying, come on, this RFK Jr, this is, this is a, this is a, this is a, this is serious, seriously nutty stuff to let this guy, um, run the, the, um, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. So this is the mega fissures, I think, are likely to get bigger and bigger. We're just going to take a quick break for some ads. Convierte your passion in a business with Shopify and bathe records of ventas with the form of pay with a better conversion of the world. Has you heard of bien?

The mejor conversion of the world. The incredible system of Pago of Shopify facilitates the purchases in your site web, in the networks, and in whatever. And we're in every place. And we are back inside your music for your eyes. No, you'll be more whiltas. Your business will be a super-exit to Shopify. Empeza to period of proof for a euro-a-mess at Shopify.combe, bar records.

And we are back inside Trump's head with Michael Wolfe. Okay, so we have a question from someone whose name rather splendidly is Toblerone KSX. I actually happen to love Toblerones. They're a little bit like eating a Rubik's cube. because they've got that strange triangular shape when you put them in your mouth, you have to sort of maneuver your tongue around it. Anyways, especially if you have one of the giant ones. Oh, those giant ones are incredible.

You have to eat them in several bites. But even the normal size is a sort of puzzle to eat it. Very Swiss, if I may say. Anyway, Toblerone, KSX is saying, please address the Epstein emails that Bloomberg uncovered. Thank you. You know, I don't know where they are from. I don't know how they got them.

I would like to know if anyone has ideas, please. Yeah, please let us know. And these are the Epstein emails with Epstein and Peter Mandelson, his former best pal who lost his job last week as the ambassador, British ambassador to the US over his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. Right, while his other former best pal is being whined and dined by King Charles. Someone else asking Daphne M-A-S-O, Daphne Mason. Daphne Mason 7-4-2-3 is asking, why hasn't Stephen Miller been replaced like so many others?

And what is the significance of Stephen Miller's wife? Is she still working for Elon Musk or has she left Elon Musk? I think she's a podcaster now, wasn't she? She has a podcast and she's been going through the royal family, as it was. of the Republican. So she did J.D. Vance. She's just done Pam Bondi. I'm sure she'll do the president at some point. But Stephen Miller is, has been and remains and continues to be ascending in the White House. He may be the most significant policy person in the White House, which is curious, because Trump has always regarded him as peculiar.

Peculiar. Yeah. You know, openly referring to him as strange. Do you think he's strange? I think he's a little strange. Do you think he's strange? That would be a verbatim Trump conversation. But he has persevered.

I mean, and I think his charm so to speak, is that he is, he's, you know, he channels MAGA. He's the, he's a MAGA guy. And I think Trump understands that that is a weakness of his, that Trump's own inclinations probably don't align all that well with the MAGA inclinations. Well, we know that he doesn't want to release the Epstein files and we know that he does want vaccinations. We should come back and do a proper episode just on Stephen Miller. He's such an interesting character. Also, just let me add another, another, the immigration issues.

He, you know, because because the immigration issues are starting to show up in the economy, in the bad numbers, he's reversing himself there, which is another one of those mega litmus positions, third rail, don't go there. Well, we should come back. I can do a full episode on Stephen Miller. And then final question from Feasant Films. What happens when Trump defies the two court orders that tariffs are illegal and that troops in the cities are illegal? Does it go up to the Supreme Court? Can you guys please pursue this?

Well, I think it's a question, what if he defies the Supreme Court order? And, you know, the thing with tariffs is that there are probably. workarounds there. You know, the Congress will authorize the tariffs. I think that they can probably achieve that, and that's

probably what they would do. In terms of troops in the streets, again, the problem with these, with both of these issues, is that there are

workarounds here, and there are Within the law itself, there is this idea of an emergency exception, which Trump has audaciously, notoriously, taken advantage of, and then sort of declared himself the final arbiter of what's an emergency. Now, what happens if the Supreme Court says that's ridiculous, as they should say? and I don't know, but I think the greater fear is that they won't, that the Supreme Court is, is, um, I, in their, they know what their job is and their job is to back the president, apparently. Michael, four people were arrested yesterday for the remarkable projection of the Jeffrey Epstein film, which we've already mentioned, you're in. A prediction of you, but you and Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. Projection of me.

A linked forever. Well, you happily not in the middle of that triumvirate, but you very much on the outside trying to analyze it for us. But there were four people were arrested and charged with something called malicious communications, which our news editor pointed out sounded positively Orwellian. What are your thoughts on this? Well, it sounds British too. It does sound British. I mean, I've always had the Brits in free speech has always seemed to me a kind of squeamish relationship.

And if you've ever had been involved in a libel reading in the UK, I've published many books in the UK. And that means they always have to be separately vetted by a UK lawyer. it's well there's no first amendment at that moment you say you say at least in the past you have said you said to I have certainly said to myself

thank God for the United States of America well thank God for the First Amendment which is rapidly being nibbled at the edges yes but but so anyway I always think that there's this weird weird kind of thing in the UK

that they don't really We want there to be free speech. But if you're going to be arrested for anything, how wonderful to be arrested for putting up that remarkable video on the wall of Windsor Castle, not something anybody anticipated. And it's made an incredible impact. And as you say,

it's followed the president on his trip, just as he was hoping to escape the Epstein of it all. Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. Epstein. Michael, let's get together again next Tuesday, and I hope you will be back in the U.S. Back in the US, back in New York, back in the inside Trump's heads studio. Excellent news.

All right, Michael, go well. Have fun in England. I'm just wondering if there's anything I want you to bring back for me, but I don't think there is. You can get pretty much everything on Amazon now. Jeff Bezos wasn't at the white-tied dinner. I bet Lauren Sanchez was sad about that because she would have loved that. And also she would have loved picking out an outfit or having Dolce and Gabana sew her into an outfit. But we've missed something there.

I wonder if they were traveling. We missed discussing Melania's royal wardrobe also. We did, off the shoulder, a yellow off the shoulder number. I did think Princess Kate looked fantastic and regal and modern all in one. And I'm very curious what it must have been like for them hanging out with Donald Trump. And to be told by Donald Trump, you're beautiful, you're so beautiful. She, and she was, Melania was, was wearing a kind of pinkish large belt at one point, causing my wife to, to jump up and say, my God, her midriff is bare. I thought that too. I bet that belt and that dress have both sold out there.

I actually always think Melania looks elegant. She doesn't look like she wants to be there, but she does look elegant. All right, Michael Wolf, travel back safely. See you on Tuesday. See you soon. Well, let's hope Michael gets back safely. Thank you for joining us if you have been. Don't forget to join the Daily Beast community on YouTube. Subscribe to the podcast, wherever you get your podcasts,

and share the podcast with a friend. There's goodness knows there's enough in it to sit down and argue with how many members or colleagues with whom you don't agree or with whom you do agree. to the Daily Beast community, three new members, Karen White, Heidi Riley and Connie Rutherford. Thank you for your support. We are independent media. And with Michael, what we try and do is go inside Donald Trump's head to figure out what an earth he is thinking about at any one time. And who knows? It's a mystery in there, but we're seeking to unravel it.

And as our first lady would have us do every day, be beast. And thank you to our production team, Devin Rogerino, Anna von Erson, and our editor, Jesse Millwood. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to the DailyBeast.com slash membership.

slash podcast and sign up today.