The Daily Beast Podcast - Republicans Now Have an ‘Incentive to Be Terrible’

Episode Date: July 19, 2022

After four years of Donald Trump and the ultimate hangover that ensued, has the Republican Party learned from its mistakes? Far from it, Molly Jong-Fast says on this episode of The New Abnormal podcast. “Trump definitely did something in the Republican Party. Right?” Molly asks. “They were always bad. They would do terrible things, but they would pretend not to be terrible. And now there’s like an incentive to be terrible. Like the people who are terrible actually raise the most money.” Still, Democratic Rep. Mondaire Jones, who represents New York’s 17th District, says that while he faces an uphill battle against the Republicans and despite the disappointments of recent events, including the repeal of Roe v. Wade, there is hope on the horizon. Then, Tim Miller, MSNBC analyst and the author of Why We Did It: A Travelogue from the Republican Road to Hell, reflects on what he learned about the Republican Party. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Molly Zhang Fast, no relationship to Kim Jong-un. I'm a left-wing pundant and a writer at the Atlantic Invo. And I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart, conversations with the wisest and funniest and funniest people in science and media and politics that help make what's happening today clearer. Our world has been turned upside down, and on the new abnormal, we'll talk about the people who got us into this mess and how we'll hopefully get ourselves out of it. All right, we have an excellent show today. First, we're going to talk to Congressman Mondare Jones, who of course represents New York's 17th Congressional District, but is now running in New York's 10th Congressional District. And we're going to talk to him about the whole story of why that's happened, and he's going to talk to us about his race and how it presently stands.

Then we're going to talk to Tim Miller, who you of course know from his many of the people. appearances here, as well as being a writer at The Bullwork, host of Not My Party on Snapchat, and being an MSNBC analyst. But he's going to talk to us about his excellent new book, why we did it, a travelogue from the Republican Road to Hell. But first, let's have some fun. Andy Levy. Molly Junkfest.

Ted Cruz, you remember him as being the most unlikeable member of the Senate, a group that includes such unlikable people as Mitch McConnell. Yes. Ted Cruz or as Donald Trump likes to call him Lion Ted. This weekend he made a shot across the bow because you know that Ted Cruz is also an area podcaster. And his shot was basically that Overfeld was wrongly decided. You knew where this was going. Of course.

It's going to undoing all the progress of the last 50 years. Congratulations. And you know, when I saw this clip, I thought, Oh, Ted Cruz is trying to get credit for this horrible thing that they're going to do because he thinks it will help him raise money. And then I posted on Twitter and Steve Gest, who is used to work for Trump World and is one of these people who spends their days trying to, you know, trying to post pictures of Joe Biden and Hunter, you know, as a baby. I mean, he actually did do this as of dunk, you know, one of these like GOP kind of. kind of internet people. He was like, you cut it.

The longer clip shows that Ted Cruz really wants to. So I watched the eight minutes of Ted Cruz, eight minutes, I will never get back ever again in my life. And in those eight minutes, Ted Cruz explains that he says all the things, literally all the things they said about Roe before they overturned Roe. So he says, well, this is really a state's rights issue. It doesn't make any sense to have same sex marriage. And Mississippi, if they don't believe in it, you can.

have it in New York. All the things they said before they took away Roe. Roe has been gone for three weeks, okay? And already, Republicans are working on a national abortion ban. They have fugitive women, you know, will you, what can we do to arrest fugitive women who are doing something that was legal three weeks ago? So as Maya Angelou says, when somebody shows you who they are, like, believe them, we know how this is going to go. But the fact that they're even trying to pretend that it's not. I mean, I guess that's right. Like the road to fascism is filled with people telling you not to overreact. Yeah. Look, first of all, when you started off this podcast, the very first thing you said was Ted Cruz. And I'm here to tell you, I physically slumped. I just want you to know that.

I just all the air was expelled from my body and was replaced by noxious gas, I think, because that is the effect he has on me at this point. But yes, if you're going to quote, by Angela, I'm going to quote the poet Denny Green, who was the coach of the Vikings, who said the bears are who we thought they were. And that's exactly how I

feel about Ted Cruz. It's exactly how I feel about the Republicans. You and I, to our immense credit, have been saying since day one, that they're not stopping with Roe, even though we've been told, you know, by numerous people that that's just not true

and nobody needs to worry. about gay marriage or interracial marriage or birth control. Yeah, we do. And you and I have both known that since day one, as I'm sure have our listeners because they tend to be, you know, incredibly smart. I used to say they want to go back to the 1950s. I think I had the wrong century. And I don't even know if it's the 18, like at the point where I think it might be like

the 1550s, Torquamato would be a mainstream Republican right now. And that's where we are. And, you know, you talked about how they're going after women who are traveling between states to get abortions. Someone has to explain to me how that's even legal. Like, how you can go after someone for going to another state to do something that's legal in that state. And someone really has to tell me how people who believe in states' rights think that that's okay. I'm going to tell you a secret. They never fucking believed in states rights.

Like that. What? I mean, yeah. I mean, they're all, they're completely full of shit. To your point, Andy. I mean, Marjorie Taylor-Greek came out. against adoption this week. Oh, good for her.

Wait, why? What sense does she ever make? Why would she be coming out against adoption? What does that have to do with her? She said that the natural parents should be the ones raised in the kids and you're like, I'm running out out of things to say about these people. I said, I think it was on our last podcast. I said that they're just evil.

And I think that I'm just stuck on that now. I don't know where to go from there. Like, every day they show us more and more who they are and who they've always. always been. Well, they're enthralled to Trump. Well, no, at this point, no, they're not. They are who they say they are and they are who we thought they were. This is who they are. And Trump is not an excuse anymore. You know, for a while, we sort of, not that we excused it, but we said, look at these people, they used to be normal and now, because of Trump, they're this. Sorry, I'm not saying that anymore. If this is who they are now, this is who they always were. And they

don't want gay marriage. Let's be honest, they don't want gay people to exist. They don't want trans people to exist. That's who they are. At some point, everyone has to get in their heads that it might be a small price to pay to have to pay a couple cents more at the gas pump to save this country from going from heading back toward the middle ages. I don't, again, I don't know what to say. like these threats are, to me anyway, these threats are so grave that, and I'm, you know, I'm not downplaying the economy and people needing their money. Of course not. But paying a few cents more for gas is not an existential crisis. This stuff is an existential crisis. It literally gets to the heart of what the country is. People, more people, I think, need to understand that.

You know, it's funny because it's like, if you think about 2015, and Ted was really thought of as a possible presidential contender. I mean, you have to wonder again how much, and this is not giving anyone credit in any way, but like how much of this is like the chicken or the egg, like were they always evil and Trump just gave them permission to be the evil they longed to be? Or, right, because like Trump definitely did something in the Republican Party, right? Like they were always bad, but they would like pretend to be, you know, they would say things like compassionate conservative, the city on the history.

You know, they wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't hear these people. Like, they would do terrible things, but they would pretend not to be terrible. Right. And now there's, like, an incentive to be terrible. Like, the people who are terrible actually raise the most money. Yep. And so I do think, like, you know, it's impossible to know, like, was Ted Cruz, would Ted Cruz have become this way if he had gotten positive feedback from being evil? Or did he need to watch Marjorie Taylor Green do it and Trump do it in order to get there?

But the bottom line is they're soulless. And so whether they would have gone another way had this not been personally profitable, yeah, no, they probably wouldn't have because, again, because they're soulless. So when I say this is who they are, that's what I mean. They will say or do anything that they think gives them an advantage. They will take any position that they think the worst of their base, wants to hear. And again, what Trump showed is that there was really never any reason for the veneer of, you know, compassionate conservatism. And that, in fact, it might have actually hurt the Republican Party, at least, you know, on a national level. Yes. I mean, that is the thing

that I'm struck by is, like, actually not being horrible racist, or at least pretending to not be horrible racist, hurt them with their base. Right. And that is pretty sad. And also, like, scary. No, it absolutely is. But it also, like, honestly, I, look, I, I, I didn't think I ever had any illusions about, about this country. And not because I thought this country was, you know, perfect or the American exceptionalism or any of that, no, I thought I had a pretty good understanding of what a lot of this country is actually like. Boy, did I underestimate it. And, you know, I basically made the same mistake that the compassionate conservatives made. I thought you had a, you know, I thought, well, the only way they're getting away with this stuff is because they sugar-coded.

And it turned out, well, no, they were wrong. And I was wrong for thinking they were right. And, you know, what Donald Trump proved was that they want to hear, oh, a gay person is a groomer. That country is a shithole. That country that is full of, you know, brown people or whatever is a shithole. That's what they want to hear. And it's working. And I hate to say it, but it's working. and, you know, the problems in this country are so deep. I know. I don't want to make you feel less depressed because that's not what we do here. But I do think like the good news, and I just wrote a piece from my newsletter, wait what, where I talked about this, you know, we are supposed to be going into a midterm that is a red wave, right?

We're supposed to be the party out of power is usually this is a referenda on the party in power. inflation is high, gas prices are high, people are miserable, there's no roaring 20s, we were promised the roaring 20s. Let me just say that these Republicans are having a very hard time raising money. And these numbers are just delightful. And I'm going to tell you, because I saw there's a conservative journalist who is now at Axios trying to launder himself as a normal mainstream journalist. We'll see if it works. And he was, he tweeted something out. I love a straight, journalist who's totally not straight. I mean, a news journalist who's completely biased, he tweeted out something like,

Republicans don't understand this is their chance to take back the Senate, like, in case you wondered what his bias is. But Blake Masters has $23 million less than Senator Mark Kelly. Okay. All right. Chuck Morris, you know who that is? Neither do I. He's running in New Hampshire.

He made kung fu movies. Exactly. He has $538,000. Maggie Hassan, 4.5 million. So, I mean, look, I'm very depressed too, but the Senate GOP fundraising is a complete flop. And for that, I am grateful. I'm with you on that.

And unfortunately, Molly, you made me a little less depressed. I'm sorry to tell you. Thereby going against the ethos of the podcast. In Pennsylvania, another underwhelming fundraising tally from a big-time GOP Senate candidate, Dr. Oz. Yep. And J.D. Vance, too, right? Yeah, Dr. Oz, who has $1.6 million in his couch cushions.

Right. That was all he could raise. He had to put in $2.2 million of his own couch cushion money. So the other great news is that there's this person who is the head of the Justice Department. His name is Merritt fucking Garland. I guess he's on vacation for the month of forever. But in a world where he was not on vacation, he might be reading some of these pieces. like this new piece from Rolling Stone where Trump basically, by the way, the thing that

strikes me about all this is people are always saying exactly what's happening. Right. So like, you know, so it's like, well, you know, Ted Cruz is like, we're going to go after gay marriage next. Like in a, in the movie version, like Ted Cruz is like, we're never going after gay marriage and then they take it away. But here everyone is so stupid, they just tell you what they're going to do. So Trump World is like, well, he's going to have to announce because otherwise he's going

to go to jail. And I mean, Merrick Garland, like, I don't know if you see Rolling Stone, you can use my login. Just DM me. I have open DMs. The piece is not behind the paywall, by the way. Yeah, see, even better. Guys are trying to get me fired. I send you the URL.

But basically, I mean, by the way, this is like the most unsurprising piece of journalism ever, right? Donald Trump will formally declare his candidacy likely sooner rather than later, because he doesn't want to go to jail and because he wants to raise money. I mean, this is like the world's most unsurprising thing ever. Well, yeah. I mean, look, the guy wanted to be president in the first place to make money and to get ahead personally. And so, yeah, absolutely. I mean, which is not to take away from the piece written by Adam Ronsley and I think just Adam Ronsley.

No, and swim. No, I think it's just Adam Ronsley. Who is this when anyway? You know, they talk to sources, and one of them says that Trump has spoken about how when you're president, it's tough for politically motivated prosecutors to get to you. And that when he's president again, they'll put a stop to any Justice Department investigations. But look, yes, again, this is incredibly unsurprising. But also, you know, it's good that it's out there.

And it's good that Adam talked to sources. And actually, you know, I got people to actually say this out loud. And, you know, this does, also this goes back to what we were saying before about, you know, how they used to put the compassionate sort of veneer over things and they would not say the quiet parts out loud. And now that they've realized they don't have to do that with that. They really don't do it with anything. And now they're, oh, yeah, he just, he wants to be president so he doesn't go to jail. I mean, they just know that they can say shit like that. And it will have no negative ramifications.

And what it'll probably do is, you know, or at least in their mind, is they think, this. This will get the base to vote for him because the base doesn't want him to go to jail because the base thinks he's a hero. Yeah, well. So they will probably vote for him if for no other reason than to keep him out of jail because that's what you do when you're in a cult. Now you've gotten me depressed. I thought we had a deal about not getting each other depressed. I thought we had made a covenant here. I remember when you were talking about bringing me on board, you said the one thing is people are like, well, is he angry

enough, though. Well, have I fucking proved that I'm angry enough now? Do you see what you people have done to me? Do you see what you people have done to me? I am just angry all the time now. No, you seem really angry. I like it a lot.

I'm not going to mince words here. Okay. All right. Yeah. Yeah. So, no, my point is, I have no such deal with you, Molly. And in fact, you wanted me to be angry. Quite the opposite. So now, you know, it's called fuck around find out, Molly.

Mondare Jones is the congressman from New York's 17th district who's presently running in New York's 10th district. Welcome back to the new abnormal, Mondair Jones. It is so good to be here. I desperately wanted to have you on because we at the new abnormal try not to get involved in primaries, especially Democratic primaries, but I had to put my finger on the scale as hard as humanly possible for you because you are a great congressman and you are running against the worst people in the world. We are in this like redistricted madness. Your primary is now little more than a month away. August 23rd. Talk to us. This is something that few people

anticipated, Molly. A Republican judge struck down the Democratic drawn congressional map in New York state. And the Republican drawn map was intended to reduce the number of Democrats in the New York delegation as well as progressives and people of color, frankly. I was put in a situation where my residents at the time had been drawn into the same district where Jamal Bowman had announced his candidacy. And so rather than run against a fellow progressive and ideological ally, I decided to run to represent a district that has given so much to me in terms of the experiences that I've had in the district, which is in Lower Manhattan, by the way, in parts of Brooklyn, helping me to come out as an openly gay man in America and live authentically,

as well as a district that I've worked in and whose communities I've already been fighting for in the United States Congress. And I've been well received. And I'm really excited to be running to represent a district that deserves a progressing with a track record of actually delivering results, unlike the record of Mr. de Blasio, who was an opponent of mine in this race. I'm sorry. I shouldn't laugh, but like the most unpopular mayor ever now deciding he wants to for Congress. It is the case that people in our politics are not always the folks who you want representing you in elected office. It doesn't always draw the people who are most serious about making policy. But I think my record clearly speaks to the fact that I am very serious.

I was named last year the most active freshman member of Congress. I've been a thought leader in terms of Supreme Court expansion to protect fundamental rights. well as the work that I've been doing to pass build back better at a time when few people thought it could pass through the House, I was able to negotiate an agreement that accomplished that. And of course, Joe Manchin needs to get his shit together so that we can pass it over the United States Senate. I want to talk about what you decided to do here because other Democrats have not decided to do this. It's a particularly like important thing. So your district would have pit you against another young, very smart African-

American congressman who's also a progressive. You sort of went into a different district. Can you explain the thinking there a little bit? We need as many strong progressives in Congress as possible. I'm the author of a number of bills, including, as I mentioned, that bill to add four seats to the Supreme Court and only one additional person co-sponsored the Judiciary Act of 2021 after the fall of Roe v. Wade a few weeks ago. So the idea that I would run against a fellow progressive was non-starter to me, especially as I've been pushing my Democratic colleagues to meet this moment. You know, Jamal was one of the good ones. The alternative that I had was to run against a man whose job responsibility it is to help the majority and fend all fascism in America. So for me,

it was obviously an unusual decision, but it's one that I think makes perfect sense as a leader in the fight to defend our democracy and protect the right to vote. I decided to run to represent a district that's given a lot to me. And that needs a progressive champion and that wants a progressive champion, when I'm speaking to people on the ground, they're asking me a few questions. They're asking me if I support Medicare for all, which I'm a champion of. They're asking me what I'm doing to accomplish getting historic investments in affordable housing. And then, of course, they want to know if I'm the guy who's going to defeat Bill de Blasio. So where are you focused? August 23rd is a hot day.

in New York City, the way it works in New York City, which I think is insane, is that we have a group of primaries in June and then another group of primaries in August. We have federal and state, which I think is completely crazy, and I wish we didn't have that. Who are you sort of focused on getting out on? And I guess the New York voting tends to have a week. Early voting is a week, right? August 13th through the 21st is early voting. Yeah. The last data vote is Tuesday, August 23rd. The designation of the date of August 23rd is itself an effort to suppress the right to vote. And again, this was all done by a Republican acting Supreme Court justice upstate. It is extraordinary what the Republican Party and its elected officials, because this is, you know,

it's an elected judge will do to destroy communities of interest, which is what these congressional maps did when they were drawn. Obviously, you know, Molly, you live in a district where two members, of Congress were forced into a primary with each other. Anyway, I'm not going to say anything. Go on. Yes. So we are competing for every single vote. I'm not taking any community for granted.

I'm working really hard. We are well positioned to win this race. I've got the clearest path to victory of anyone. One of my opponents who is self-funding obviously has a lot of money that I've got to compete with. And it doesn't even have a platform on his website because he doesn't want people to know he's too conservative for the district. And that person is Dan Goldman. So we are working really

hard to get our message out and to let people know that I'm the progressive champion in this race who is going to make sure that this district has the representation it deserves. Has there even been polling? There has been some polling. You know, we've got an internal poll, obviously, that shows me very well positioned to win this race. I think one of my opponents may have released a poll this morning actually showing the same thing. And it is also the case that you've got multiple people in this race. And you've got multiple people in this race that tends to split up the vote. But we've got the grassroots resources to make sure that we get our message out across platforms.

Because this is the kind of race where there are going to be a lot of folks who can't introduce yourself to simply knocking on doors. So we're going to be on all cylinders soon. Talk to me about what the issues are in New York 10. It is difficult to have a conversation that does not. not involve a robust discussion of the historic underinvestments in NYCHA and an affordable housing. This is personal for me as someone who has experienced housing insecurity. I grew up in sectioning house. I know what it's like to wonder whether, you know, you're going to have a roof over your head at some point in the future. And it's why I've been fighting so hard to get those historic investments.

You know, I help pass build back better through the house, which contain tens of billions of for NYCHA in addition to money to create 300,000 new Section 8 housing vouchers. And we've got to go so much further than that. It's why co-sponsor, Representative Ilhan Omar's Homes for All Act, which would create millions of new deeply affordable housing units throughout this country, including in Lower Manhattan and in Brooklyn. This is something I'm very passionate about. I have a lot of discussions about the right to an abortion and other fundamental rights

like marriage equality, which have either been taking away already by the Supreme Court majority or are on the chopping block. And people appreciate that I'm the guy who have a vision to introduce the Judiciary Act to add four seats to the Supreme Court to protect fundamental rights. Even when my colleagues scoffed at me at the time, I did that more than a year before we saw Justice Lido's draft opinion purporting to overturn Roe v. Humane immigration policy is something that also matters deeply to me and to the constituents in Lower Manhattan and in Brooklyn. And people appreciate that I've been leading the charge, along with some of my progressive colleagues, to get that passed, not just through the House, but through the Senate.

And so these and some of the other things, including the fight to end gun violence, is stuff that my work is directly bearing on right now. And people appreciate that I've already been doing the work unlike my opponents. Where do you think the votes are in New York 10? New York's 10th congressional district is a place that is very civically engaged. And, you know, I speak to my neighbors in Carroll Gardens and Brooklyn, example, and folks are increasingly aware of an August 23 primary. They understand the importance of it. They're starting to hear about who's running, but of course, most people still don't know that there's an August 23 primary. And most people still don't know who's running in this race,

other than maybe Bill de Blasio. And so that's the project between now and August 23rd is to introduce myself to everyone, to tell them about the work that I've been doing. And my accomplishments that are already a great benefit to the beautifully diverse communities that comprise this district. I know that there are calls. Jesse and I have talked about this because we both, we live in nearby districts and we both experience this. Actually, Jesse, do you live in Representative Jones district? I'm in Diavazquez now, whereas I used to be in Maloney. The whole thing is completely crazy. By the way, how much blame for this can Cuomo take? He can take a lot of blame. Can you explain that to our listeners? Absolutely. So it was the New York Court of Appeals, the highest court in New York State, that struck.

down the congressional map that was drawn by the legislature after the commission, the independent commission failed to reach agreement. And in a four or three decision, judges that Governor Cuomo had nominated and gotten confirmed to the court of appeals struck down a map that, you know, had it been upheld, would not have resulted in a lot of the drama that people have seen unfold throughout New York State. A member of member primaries, black communities being torn apart in violation of the Constitution, by the way, which requires that when you draw a congressional map, you keep what are called communities of interest together. And it's not surprising that a governor who's never really been a strong Democrat would appoint people to the Court of Appeals

who would ultimately facilitate a Republican judge drawing the congressional map in an unaccountable way. Explain to us what's happening with Joe Manchin. Joe Manchin, as many of your listeners know, was in the end the single obstacle to passing Build Back Better. Build Back Better contains transformative investments in childcare and healthcare and healthcare, including allowing Medicare to negotiate prescription drug prices. Yes, $555 billion in planet saving climate action and so much more. And you have a guy from West Virginia who goes on Fox News in December without even giving the White House notice. after having negotiated this bill down from $3.5 trillion to $1.8 or so trillion dollars and announced that the deal was dead. So he clearly was not negotiating in good faith.

It is the case that today the White House has resumed negotiations with him. He's further gutted the version of Bill Back Better that I was able to help get passed through the House. But it is the case that people are really still optimistic about what we can get past between now and November. I just want to piggyback on this. So you'll remember in 2021, there was an expose from British Channel 4, which had an Exxon lobbyist bragging about his relationship with Joe Manchin, calling him a kingmaker, saying that he talked to him once a week.

Joel Manchin has been pretty much the thing that has stood in the way of Democrats being able to pass climate change provisions. What could you do as a legislator to prevent this from ever happening again? So I'm not sure that you want to hear this, but I want to hear it, man. I suspect you may. I view my role not just as a legislator, but as a leader who is also responsible for helping us pick up just a couple more Democratic Senate seats to make people like Joe Manchin irrelevant moving forward. And that means being out on the campaign trail, making sure that we don't have a majority in name only in the United States Senate so that we can actually pass a $15 minimum wage and pass humane immigration policy and pass a robust version of bill back better.

And yes, to pass a bill that I co-authored, the Freedom to Vote John R. Lewis Act, which would save our democracy and protect the fundamental right to vote as we experience the worst assault on our democracy since the Jim Crow era. Yeah. I have a passion project in my life. I have a dream of a bill that would prevent members of Congress and their spouses from trading stocks. It's popular with everyone who's not in Congress and a few people like you who are in Congress. Where is that? And how can that get passed? So I co-sponsor Katie Porter's bill. I think it's an incredible bill. Members of Congress should not be trading individual stocks. I don't do that. I'm also one of the poorer members of Congress. And we need more working class people in Congress.

It makes a world of difference. Oh, my God. We have leadership that's not fully behind this effort. And we've got many members of the House Democratic caucus that still are not in support of this effort. So we've got to keep pushing. And thankfully, it's very popular with the American people. I can't imagine why. Corruption is a real issue. We've seen people vote against things that are supported by 90% of the American people, including allowing Medicare to negotiate prescription drug prices. So this is something that is really important.

It's a campaign issue. We see a number of what are called frontline members, people trying to flip seats or folks in really tough districts, running on banning stock trading. And this is something that I think you'll continue to see. gain traction, especially if Democrats are able to keep our majority this fall. Thank you so much, Mandar. This was really so important. I'm so glad to have you on and good luck. Thank you. I really appreciate it. It's such a pleasure.

Tim Miller is a writer at the bulwark, host of Not My Party on Snapchat and an MSNBC analyst, as well as the author of Why We Did It, a travelogue from the Republican Road to Hell. Welcome back to the new abnormal Tim Miller. I'm so happy to be back. Molly John. fast. I'm going to try to bring you just a tiny ray of light amidst the darkness. A bit of joy. I'm so happy to have you here. I'm such a fan of yours. I love this book. I have many questions for you. And my first question for you is the book is why we did it. A travelogue from the Republican Road to Howe. Why did you do it? That's every question. Isn't that the first question that everyone asked you? Who's we and why did you do it?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So there'd been all these books about Trump, right? And I felt like that it had answered a lot of questions. Like, what was the crazy shit that had happened there? And, you know, who were the worst people in the Trump White House? And, you know, why did everything go to shit because of Donald Trump, right? Yeah. Yeah, why? Nobody had really kind of tried to answer the thing that had been bothering me the whole time, which is, like, with the exception of, you know, people that listeners can list on five fingers. Why did everybody who knew better, who told us they knew better,

go along with it? I don't think there's one silver bullet answer to that question. I give a series of answers. And in first through it, I look back and I say, okay, well, Tim, you knew these people were crazy.

Why did you work for, you might have gotten off the ship before Trump, but I still consulted for Ken fucking Cucinelli. He's not much better than Donald Trump. Why did I do that? You know, and I looked back at it. And it was like,

well, partially for career ambition, partially I just compartmentalized how awful he was. you know, and I kind of explored my own rationalizations for going along with people that I knew were terrible. And then I did a bunch of interviews with people who, the few who had still talked to me, who stayed in Republican politics and asked them, why they, and I, you know, kind of created a handful of categories. Some of them are obvious, right? Some of them are the oldest profession, you know, I'm just scoring themselves out. Some of them are money, but they were a lot more complex, like, kind of questions, too.

And I thought that was the important part that I tried to get at about this book is that there's a little bit of gray. Not all these people were sociopaths. Not all of them are. You have the little segment. Fuck that guy. There are plenty of fuck that guys in there. But there are also people that were trying to rationalize going along with something they knew was bad. And I wanted to explore all their rationalizations because I think that that is hopefully going to teach us something about the next round that's coming in 2024.

and maybe people who are outside of politics who get some value out of that. Give me an example of someone who is oldest profession. The oldest profession? Well, our friend Elise DeFonick, who is just on TV this weekend talking about the Biden crime family, I guess,

and all this other stuff and how the January 6th committee doesn't have any Republicans on it when it's like all Republicans. I mean, nobody that is testifying is not a Republican, basically. I think that Elise, you know, is just, in some ways it's kind of the least interesting

person that I write about because it is just this pure striving, right? And she, though, I think, is unique. You know, there are a lot of these types in Congress, of course. You know, the Trump era is not the first time we had, you know, soulless prostitutes, like trying to get power. But Elise, you know, was like Tim. Like, we were the same. She was a moderate Republican. Right. Went to Harvard. Yeah, she went to Harvard. She ran on a platform of like, we need to deal with climate change and gay rights and we need to be kinder to immigrants. And we need to do a compassionate, have a compassionate sheen on the Republican Party. That was her platform in 2014.

The people that worked for her, you know, were all kind of millennial young Republicans who were excited about this. Like, oh, man, a Republican, I can actually, you know, I don't have to compartmentalize stuff about. I like everything that's on her platform. And so for her to just flip and do a full heel turn and Shiv Liz Cheney and now, you know, be out there as the lead spokesperson for a guy. Donald Trump's cruelty and lies and, you know, that is in direct opposition to all the things that she espoused. I just think that is this pure example.

There are plenty. It's not just her, you know, and there's some other examples. I do Lindsey Graham and, you know, I didn't have to do Kevin McCarthy because Leavich and J. Mark kind of covered him pretty well in their books. But there are plenty of other examples. But since I knew Elise, I thought that was the most stark. There's no savior coming to help us, right? Like the closest we get is like Liz Cheney, who's willing to handcuff herself to Donald Trump and hope they both drown in the process.

No, there's no savior. And unfortunately, this is why me and Mark's book are actually both so dark. Mine's even darker than his. I finished it. I had dinner with him last night because he's out here promoting it. And on the West Coast, and I said to him, I got there, I said, you know, I thought you went a little easy on some of these guys. I was just teasing him. But, I mean, his book is really mean.

But even his book has like, well, you know, maybe Chris Christie, maybe some of these guys will turn around in 2024. Probably not. You know, there are no obvious saviors. But I'm even darker than that, in that even if there were people that wanted to be saviors, like there are two fundamental, there's a fundamental problem here, which is not just the cowardly leaders, but that this is what the voters want, the Republican voters, the base voters. And so, so they're always going to be politicians that want to appeal to those voters. This is a bottom-up problem. I think it's the one area where me and Mark disagree. I think we've a lot of similarities,

but I think he really sees this as a top-down problem of cowardly lions in Congress. And then, boy, there are plenty of cowardly lions, right? But I think that's really driving this as a bottom-up demand side. People want all of the heinous stuff that Donald Trump gave them. And so that's why on January 6, I write about this in the book. You know, there are all these behind-the-scenes moments that are written in all the books by reporters, right? about Lindsey Graham saying, oh, maybe we can all unite behind Joe Biden. And it's time to move on to Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy.

And I don't know. I'm sure me and you talked about this about me. I was like, I knew in January, I was like, this is bullshit. I was like, all these guys are coming back. Because the rationalizations that I write about in the book are, you know, it's different for different people. But whether it's hatred of the left, whether it's wanting to be close to power, whether it's money, whether it's, you know, ambition, whether it's wanting to be in the mix,

in the room where it happened. Whatever was the rationalization that got you to January 6th was still operative afterwards, right? I mean, you know, like until until there is some political incentive or benefit to doing what Liz Cheney is doing, these guys aren't going to do it. And Liz Cheney, God bless her, is like throwing herself on the fire right now and she's going to lose her career over this. No, no, I think that's right. Do you think that the worst moment in American political life, the thing that doomed us as a democracy, was that line, you know, we're going to be. going to he's not exactly overturning election results he played golf today let's just humor him what's the downside what's the downside for humoring him yeah well maybe because we're still doing it you know so

I wrote about this for the bulwark on Friday about you know there's this big debate happening hopefully your listeners don't suffer don't don't suffer through this but I have to um in center right media anti-anti Trump media the extent there is a center right the national review and all these sorts of you know the the remaining conservative eggheads yeah baseball crank all these all these guys and it's like well I mean, Ron DeSantis is clearly not as dangerous as Donald Trump, right? I mean, he's not, you know, there's this big fight. And it's like, well, I mean, you never Trumpers. You're deranged if you think that Donald Trump.

And so I wrote about Friday for the work. I just wrote, okay, probably, I mean, like Donald Trump is psychotic, right? Like, he has some very unique psychopathy that is, you know, he needs to spend a lot of time. Like, he doesn't have enough time left on this earth to deal with in therapy, right? So, sure. I, like, probably, you know, long-tail danger Donald Trump's more dangerous. But here's the problem. We're just doing what's the downside for humoring him all over again with all these guys, right?

Like none of them are saying the truth. What's the downside for humoring him is still the operative position of the Republican Party. And it's an option of position of Ron DeSantis. And so it's like, okay, well, if Ron DeSantis is really less dangerous than Trump, then shouldn't he say so? Like, shouldn't he be like, you know, I like Donald Trump on the tax cunts and the wall, but I didn't think the coup thing was very cool. That would be, I don't know, I probably wouldn't vote for Ron to Sanchez. then, but that would at least be a little reassuring. But that's not what we're getting.

So that cowardice is still the operative strategy. Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't know. It's funny because we've been talking about DeSantis a lot, and I have always felt like DeSantis is actually Trump, but scarier because he's quite smart. But he isn't popular the way that Trump is popular. I don't know that they love him the way they love Trump.

But yeah, for sure. And he doesn't, I mean, he's not interested in any of those norms. Right. And all the mistakes, that's why I wanted to really be honest. You know, I had a agent call and say, hey, Tim, I think you should write a book that's like the 10 duchiest grifters in Maga Life. And I was like, man, that'd be a, he's like, that'd sell. I was like, yeah, that'd be a good book, that'd sell. But I just, I didn't feel like that was going to be a very fulfilling project. And so I wanted to, like, look back what we did. And this is the important thing is you get to DeSantis, right?

This is the scary thing about the DeSantis campaign. Every single mistake that led to Trump, right? Like, you know, the trolling, the treating politics as a game, the, you know, the inflaming the bases, anger, and grievances. All of the stuff that I look back on with regret from 08 to 16 when I was working on campaigns. They're doing all that shit on steroids again with DeSantis. We haven't learned. They haven't learned anything. It'd be one thing if it was, hey, okay, well, we're going to have a more responsible idea. You know, like the party is going to move in a populist direction and we're going to be a little bit more protectionist and nativist.

And, you know, we'll learn from Trump, you know, the whole serious Trumpism thing that people talk about, right? Like, okay, I wouldn't vote for. for that, but that would at least be responsible, right? Let's say, okay, we're going to just be responding to people's grievances and cut down on immigration and cut down on global trade and, you know, whatever. That's not what they're doing. Like, they're doing all this, they're doing all the Trump stuff, all the owning the libs, all the, all the cruelty is happening all over again with him. And it's just in a different package that's like a little bit more appeasing to appealing to the nerds that write for National Review because like, you know, DeSantis

isn't like shit posting on Twitter every day, right? But if you're only complaint with Donald Trump, was the tweets, then okay. I had a lot of other complaints, actually. Right, right. No, I mean, I think that's fundamentally the issue is like there's a lot of stuff worse than the tweets coming from Trump and Trumpism. The thing that I'm sort of shocked by, I'm not shocked by it, but in my dream world, there would have been, I actually wrote this for my newsletter. Wait, what, for the Atlantic? I'm not getting an invite to Atlantic. No matter how much you like me, it's just so crowded with white never-trump men. It's just like, you know, I mean, I'd have to like shank Tom Nichols or something to get a slot over there. Yes, probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had written about this earlier on

about how Democrats could run on this bold anti-corruption platform, which nobody was interested in. I do think, like, if we could go back in time, stopping members of Congress from trading stocks and using Trump, because remember, after Watergate, Congress did, in fact, do lots of things to stop this or, you know, to say like we have to change the way we do things here. None of that has happened. No, none of it's happened. I do think, and JVL, Jonathan Lass wrote about this with the bulwark, right, right, when the Democrats get in.

And there have been others, and like you, Molly, they were advocating for this. Like maybe there were some structural things that could have been focused on, right? Like anti-corruption efforts protecting, you know, the electoral reforming the electoral count act, actually prosecuting, you know, the people that were complicit in trying to steal the election, changing some of, you know, maybe focusing on, now you probably couldn't have gotten here with Mansion and Cinema, but maybe, you know, adding D.C. as a state, right? Like, what are some of the structural reforms that could have, like, guarded democracy a little better for the next time one of these assholes comes through? And that is true. It did make a difference.

Bill Crystal talks about this a lot, about how after, since some of the Nixon people went to jail, okay, well, it didn't create perfect behavior for everybody in Washington in perpetuity. You But he was like, I was around back then. And, you know, you'd go into meetings and people would be like, you know, we should be a little bit more. Right. Like, it just protected and safeguarded norms for a while. And obviously, there's always going to be this push and pull.

Always going to be people that try to draw outside the lines. But there's been none of that. There's been no accountability. There's none happening from the voters. There's none happening from the Justice Department. There's no structural changes that are happening. And so, you know, here we are. We're a year and a half in.

And there's not really a lot of signs that anything has been done to make sure we're were better off the next time Donald Trump himself or somebody like him tries the anti-democratic nonsense that he tried. That's concerning. Did I say I was going to be a positive light at the beginning of this question? Yeah, you did, but I knew better. I was prepared emotionally for what would happen. Again, we've gone from Merritt-Fucking Garland to Merritt-Fucking Garland, right?

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's just sort of shocking to me. Yeah, in the Senate, guys, I just, I do get a little frustrated, and there are some Republicans maybe that could have gone along. And there's still possible, but it's just not a lot of hope. Jonathan Martin quoted some senator saying that, oh, you know, we might fix the Electoral Count Act and the lame duck after the midterms. Oh, good. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And I was like, oh, really? We are? Like, after the Republicans take over, then they're going to be the ones that change the rules to make it harder to steal the next election. I'm not, you know, I'm sure a senator said that. It's not a attack on J-Mart. like, give me a fucking break. I think that there's been a little bit of a missed opportunity. You know, it's a 50-50 Senate. There have been some good things that they've done.

Obviously, I think that, you know, they got infrastructure and they, the gun bill was not perfect, but obviously far from perfect, but it was at least something. So they should get some credit. But at the same time, man, like it feels like there's a lot of meat left on the bone on some pretty important stuff that they might have been able to do. Yeah. Oh, Jesus Christ. I was feeling depressed, but now I'm feeling much, much worse. The other thing I wanted to talk to you about was it seems like they're not taking this seriously enough. And it's going to head us to just absolute disaster. Do you think Trump is diminished in the party?

Because like I've seen a lot of polling that has said that. And certainly him not being on Twitter actually really has. I mean, he's a lot softer in the background. I mean, do you think he's diminished or do you think if he wants it, which of course he wants it because he wants to make money that he will run and that he's not diminished. Yeah, I think that he's slightly diminished, but okay, from like a Saddam Hussein level base of support

with his own, than his own members, right? It was like the bath party, and, you know, so now he's lost a little bit of that. I think there's certain voters that are ready to move on. We see this in focus groups, and obviously see it a little bit in polls, where these voters that are already move on don't hate him, right? They haven't turned into Tim Miller, right?

But they, they're like, yeah, you know, I don't know. All this drama, like maybe we should just like, you know, do a little bit of a Trump light for the next time. There's some elements of that. And, you know, maybe we'd have a better chance to win without them. And I think the January 6th committee has had a big part of that, right? And so I think I don't think that's not nothing. Now, the question is, how long does that last? You know, does that start to wear off, especially if he gets back in a race?

We've seen this before, you know, where Republicans get a little annoyed with them from time to time. And then they kind of come back into his clutches. The bar that I always keep looking is as a campaign guy. is in 2016, whenever I see a poll of a state, I look back to the 2016 primary result. And sometimes, you know, there'll be a poll come out. Like North Carolina, Donald Trump, 49, Ron DeSantis, 20, Mike Pence, 8. And some people on Twitter will be like, whoa, Trump's under 50.

You know, he's losing his grip. Then I'll go back and look at 2016. It's like, well, Trump only had, you know, I'm making this up. But he only had 41%. North Carolina last time. So he's up from his successful primary of 2016. So, you know, until his numbers start to dip below, but what would be a winning number, it's hard to get too excited about it. But I do think that there's some signs that maybe people are just sick of the bullshit.

I was reading a story about him the other day and I just like had an existential crisis. And I was like, I don't think I can do another fucking six or 700 years of this. Like, I mean, he comes back into office. A, who knows when we get him out. I mean, what does he then try to run? I mean, run, quote unquote, what's left of our democracy. Does he then try to run again for another term? No, the long term is concerning.

And not, God willing, we never have to get them in there. But here's another thing when you think about, you know, so I have this show in Snapchat for the teens, Molly. Yes, I love the teens. Yeah, I do too. So sometimes it gets me in the head of teens. I know you have some teens in your life, so you get in the head of teens too. I have three.

Yeah, so think about your teenagers, right? And it's already been seven years of him. Yeah. So if you're well into voting age, like if you're 23 right now, like, Donald Trump's been your whole life in politics. And that shapes the way you think about things. It makes you loathe the right more if you're a liberal, right? And, like, adds to your grievance and anger.

And if you're a Republican kid, you think that that's the model, right? You know what I mean? And so these college Republicans are like freaky. Like, you know, my college Republicans, we were nerdy. You know, we had our briefcases and we dressed like Michael P., you know, sheep in the family ties and weird dorks. They're like troll monsters. Now they're like Charlie Kirk. Yeah. And so and that then feeds in like who who are the young people in

Republican campaigns who are running these crazy ass Twitter feeds like the House Judiciary. You know so this so there's this impact on the body politic. He runs again 11 years and that's so long. It's like the Titanic woman. You know like you're aging and it's like you know it's just like that's I it's going to take so long to unravel it. So I don't know. I'm with you. But like what do you do? And this is also a global phenomenon. Like, what are we supposed to do? You know, moved to France and deal with Le Pen? I don't know. Moved to Brazil. I had a great vacation in Brazil this spring, but I don't know

that I'm ready for Bolsonaro. Trade out Trump or Bolsonaro and Glenn Greenwald. Okay, all right. This is... Yet another uplifting. I hope you'll come back. Thanks, Tim Miller. Thank you. I did my best. Just really quick. There are two uplifting chapters in the book. One

is a Trumper who turned into the light and why she did that. Right. And the other is just a merciless troll of Sean Spicer. And so I try to give people, I try to give people like a little hint of light amidst the darkness and the book. You know, if you've got to press, listen to this. Maybe just get the book, scroll ahead to the Sean Spicer chapter. You know, get at least a little bit of joy. Oh, thank you.

You're welcome. Andy Levy. Molly Johnfest. We're at that point, since you're not an angry guy. Who is the person who you? would like to tell to go fuck themselves today. My fuck that guy for today is, I don't think it's the first time he's been a fuck that guy on the show. He is one of two senators from West Virginia, but nobody knows who the other one is.

It's Debbie Stabinot. No, is it Stabin. No, it's not. She's a Democrat from Michigan. No, West Virginia is a woman called. Nobody knows. I don't even think they have a second senator. It's a woman.

I pride myself on that. I can pretty much do all 100, and I have no idea. It's a woman called something with a hyphenated name. Oh. Oh, one of those. Yeah, the worst. One of those Jongfest. Shelly more capital.

She is not my fuck that guy for this week. It's the other one. It's the Joe Manchin fella. Yes, tell me more. Well, it's never fun to open politico.com. but it is kind of fun when you open it and you scroll down a little bit. And there's literally an entire mansion section today. There's four stories.

There's Democrats, climate activist, grasp, or come back after Blow from Mansion. There's mansions offered to Dems, take a health care deal or try again later. There's Mansion disputes claims he rejected Dems climate and energy spending. He's lying about that. And then there's Biden to Senate Dems, accept Mansion's demands. this is the leader of the free world, is Joe Manchin, like if I'm basing it off of this. Yeah, and he's also like the favorite of Exxon. Yeah.

Somehow this guy has become the most powerful person in America. And no shade at West Virginia. Well, a little shade at West Virginia. Gorgeous. Well, it's a gorgeous state. It's a beautiful state. The mountains are blue and purple and they have majesty. You've never been there, have you?

All of that. I have. I have. I have. I don't. I think even people from West Virginia would agree that the most powerful person in the world should not be from West Virginia. Speak for yourself, man. Well, okay.

I mean, I apologize, I guess, if that's offensive to our, what I'm sure is our huge West Virginia listenership. Once again, Joe Manchin has, he shot down all the energy and climate stuff in the spending package. And basically, what this is going to mean is, we're not. not going to be able to regulate greenhouse gases and something we are the number two country in the world in terms of production. So once again, this is what we get with a Democratic president, a Democratic House, and a Democratic Senate, the world still burns. For this reason and for so many more, fuck that guy Joe Manchin. Yeah, it's like, by the way, there are wildfires raging through the French countryside, a place where it's not the norm.

Oh, apparently runways are melting in England. Yes, not great. By the way, Joe Manchin is like, I'm really concerned about inflation. Like, inflation doesn't have whatever. I mean, it's just bullshit. It's all bullshit. So do you want to know who my fuck that guy is? Yes, yes, ma'am.

So Republicans in Missouri, they have been my fuck that guy before and they will be my fuck that guy again. the treatment for miscarriages and the treatment for abortion are basically the same, right? You've got to get rid of the uterine lining. There are pills that you can do to take that. It's an abortion pill called misoprostol. So basically, the doctor prescribed the medicine and the doctor couldn't get it for her. So she had to, he prescribed one of the drugs.

It didn't work well enough and she couldn't get the other one because he said it was impossible to get there. Again, I don't know, again, where if it's the doctors keeping her from the drug, or if it's the pharmacists, or if it's the Republican politicians who made this law, but I think it's worth giving a hearty fuck you. And especially because there are a pharmacist who are refusing to refill drugs because they're worried that they're abortive fascists. I don't know. I mean, look, the goal here is for, I mean, the goal here, I mean, I just want to like, Roe was passed originally because you had doctors who wouldn't treat women because they didn't want to lose their licenses. Right.

It seems very clear that we are going back to this world. And it's funny because, you know, when Roe was first overturned or in last August when Texas passed SB 8 and we saw, you know, they overturned Roe essentially. And there was no abortion in Texas. I had abortion activists on this podcast. a number of really great ones. And they would say to me, you know, you shouldn't message that abortions aren't, that illegal abortions aren't safe because, you know, the pills are very, very safe and they're 50% of all abortions anyway. And the truth is, like, if you look at the history books, the women who did the Jane did a, there are very safe illegal abortions.

I think that we are in a time now in American life where the illegality of these abortions is really morally reprehensible. And so we should, in fact, break the law as much as possible when it comes to abortion. And I hope to be able to help other women if they need that. I mean, I'm obviously not going to perform abortions, but I'm just saying, like, I think, you know, when a law is this morally reprehensible, it should be broken. But I did not see that women would die from doctors refusing to treat them because they are just scared. That was really the legacy of Roe. And it was like the kind of thing. And it was like the kind of where it's like I think a lot of us didn't see it coming, but it actually is, you know, you're in

more danger and in a way from what the doctor, you know, it's not the illegal abortion. It's the legal won't treat you. Right. That is going to be the thing that kills a lot of American women. I mean, I'm with you. Fuck all those people. And of course, they're being completely disingenuous now and claiming that an abortion for a 10-year-olds wouldn't be an abortion anyway, right?

Right. I mean, I love that there's like, part of them is like, how did you cross-de- state lines to get an abortion. And the other group is saying, well, if a 10-year-old gets an abortion, it doesn't even count as an abortion, so it's fine. I mean, and by the way, all of it is bullshit. Like, they don't want to give 10-year-olds abortions. They want to make them have children, and they don't care. Right. Well, that's the thing is that they're, first of all, they're being disingenuous when they say that, they say things like, oh, well, this is just, these are communications problems. And, you know, this is, I saw someone blaming this actually

on the left saying, oh, this is because the left has scared doctors. And just like, I saw that too. Yeah, fuck you to that person, Alexandra Dysanktis. Yeah, she's the worst. Well, she's like super missed, like wants no one to ever have an abortion, ever, ever, ever. Well, and that's the thing is that's the other thing they're being disingenuous about is they're, like, on the one, out of one side of the mouth, they're saying, oh, no, no, no, no, these things are all fine. But on the other side, they're like, what they really think is, like, yes, none of these women should have had this health care provided to them. So, yeah, I'm with you on this.

Fuck all of them. On that note, we'll wrap this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast. In future episodes, we'll be talking to smart folks from The Daily Beast and beyond from media, culture, politics, and science. We'll help us understand what's happening to our country and the world. We hope you'll subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app and share the show on social media. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you again on the next episode. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.

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