The Daily Beast Podcast - Sep. 6 Member Bonus: Lev Parnas: Trump’s Cronies Made Fun of Him Behind His Back

Episode Date: October 15, 2020

This members-only episode was originally published on September 6, 2020 and moved to this feed for full member access. Lev Parnas has been a major character in the ongoing Trumpworld corruption saga and was even arrested for his role in it all. These days, he is choosing to spill the tea. The former ally of Trump lawyer Rudy Guiliani joined this bonus members-only episode of The New Abnormal to come clean about his complicity in the Trump “cult,” how he started to “drink the Kool-Aid” (“I was approached by a couple of gentlemen in Florida to hold a fundraiser for [Trump]”) and what he knows about Ukraine. “Rudy is very key. He has the president's ear,” Parnas says. “That's the most important part.” He says Rudy was the person who approached him and “basically started asking us some questions about Ukraine and Igor [Fruman.]” But despite the circle of shady players that continues to revolve around Trump, they all talk behind his back. The subject varies depending on the new cycle. “We would talk about his bad decision making, the stubbornness. Like I remember with Charlottesville, for instance, when he came out and said there were people on both sides. I thought half the RNC was going to fall off their head,” he said. “It was not off limits to anybody as long as [Trump] wasn't around or [Donald Trump] Jr. wasn't around,” says Parnas. “I mean, he was laughed at. It was funny to watch how nobody had the strength to go up against him” Plus! Parnas also name drops the people still caught in Trump’s inner circle and who is in his ear (besides Rudy—“It's not only Sean Hannity.”) and why he literally thanks God he got out of it. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Well, today on the new abnormal, we are absolutely thrilled to welcome Lev Parnas. Lev, as many of you know, was a central figure in the story of the president's impeachment over the Ukraine matter. He has been a character in the ongoing stories of the Trump administration's weirdness and corruption, and he has made a break from all that. He has made a decision to walk away from the Rudy Axis and the Steve Bannon Axis and the Donald Trump Axis and come over to the side of light and tell the truthful part out loud, unlike many, many people who swallow their moral compunctions, Lev has decided at great personal risk to come forward and tell his story, not only in court, but here today on The New Abnormal. So we are thrilled to welcome you, Lev, Parnas. Hi, thank you for having me, Rick, Molly. Thank you.

Love, you know, you've been a major public figure, but I don't think most people know your background. So can you walk us through your life story? I mean, not the long version, the medium version, and then tell us how you became entangled in the Trump and Rudy worlds. Sure. I mean, quickly, I immigrated here when I was three years old from, I was the ex-Soviet Union, from Ukraine, Odessa. I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. I'm a Brooklyn and New Yorker in heart and been an American citizen for 44 years. I am American, love this country. I didn't, I grew up with a silver spoon in my mouth. My father passed away when I was 11 years old. I started working on different jobs and eventually ended up on Wall Street and moving down to Florida.

Having different companies and being a businessman in my whole life never was involved in politics. One day, my son gave me a call and he called me up and said, hey, dad, I think Trump is about to announce he's running for president. And at first it was all, you know, a joke. Did you know Trump at this point? I did know him very well, but I had interactions with the bombings. At some events she held in Miami, when she at Dural, when they held a couple of different events, I was a guest at those events with them and at the VAP section. That's where I would interact with them.

So I wasn't like friends. The first time I actually had any type of conversation with them was actually after a dinner that we held for him. And it was for different reasons. If you remember, when he had that falling out, when he was running for election, and he had that audio of him saying, grab by the genital. it was really a downpoint in his campaign. It was actually October, the same time, October, I was approached by a couple of gentlemen in Florida to hold a fundraiser for him.

So who were you approached by Republican operatives? Actually, no, he was a billionaire Republican donor, Robert Pereira. He has this $100-something million house he used to have in Bonka, and he was building, and he wanted to, he was an infrastructure and wanted to get in close to a Trump and so I get he committed to doing this event. And for me, it was great. I was working on some real estate projects for this company called Hudson Holdings at the time. So it was, I figured it was a great way to meet some people like Robert billionaires and influential people. It wasn't so much about politics. That was more of a picture on the door. And again, at that point,

nobody ever imagined him becoming president. It was more of, you know, a joke still running around. But that dinner was like the first interaction where I really, you know, We got mesmerized by him at that time. He came there. It was about 20 couples. It was a round table. And because I was one of the individuals that put the event together with Robert, it was actually right after Yon Kippur ended, and I remember that.

And he was supposed to stay. Trump was supposed to stay for like 30 minutes, 40 minutes, but he ended up staying for like an hour and a half. And we just sat there and spoke about all different things. And my personality being the way it was, I was doing most of the talking at the table. So that was our first interaction with them about different stuff, just, you know, shooting the shit, as you call it. And that's when we first click, like, where he could really understand who that face was.

And at that dinner, I also met Rudy Giuliani for the very first time. It was never about politics. It was always about business for me because I was actually trying to meet people like the Robert Pereira world. So, Leff, as you started to come into this circle around Trump, I take it it was sort of a subtle process. You know, you're a little bit starstruck by Trump and Rudy. and all these people. And like a lot of things, it seems like you just sort of slip into that world as things start to go in weird directions, though. I mean, I guess, I guess it's, was it hard to see some of that coming up, like as things were getting weird and they were, as it went

from the campaign to Rudy and other things? I guess the question I'm asking is, was it, did it feel like obvious, or was it sort of a subtle process? Well, I mean, I basically started drinking the Kool-Aid. To me, I wasn't looking like, I wasn't looking at it in anything deep or any politics. What I was looking at as, like I said, I was looking to meet individuals that are wealthy that could, you know, I'm a businessman. I'm not a politician. So I had no idea of how it was, but I got sucked into it because obviously these are the most powerful people in the world, especially when he won. I mean, I was there when he won. I was in New York. I was with the family and the team and the upper deck when who came at the Hill.

After that dinner, I was with him at every, mostly every event that he was doing, from the debating sitting front row when he's debating with Hillary to going to his campaign rallies where Robert Pereira's daughter would sing the national anthem, to eventually being there at the Hilton when he announced when he won and coming home to the hotel four in the morning celebrating. So, yeah, I don't know how to explain it, but for a kid growing up in Brooklyn or anywhere in this country, I mean, I think that's something amazing to be a part of. Explain to me what happened with Rudy.

Well, Rudy, our relationship didn't start flourishing until about, I think, in 2018, about a year down the road, a little over a year down the road. I met him back then through the campaign at the inauguration. We were together. But then afterwards, I had nothing to do with anybody in that world. I was going through some of my own financial problems, plus lawsuits with some of the companies that were involved and defrauded me. I think that I was raising money for at the time.

So it was a tough year for me and I basically didn't have any connection with anybody. Then, end of 17, I was approached by Igor Fruman, who now became my partner and started, you know, discussing with me, you know, all kinds of different things and trying to open up some sort of business at the time. So as you got into Rudy's circle, Rudy always played a. strange role in Trump's world in some ways, like very intimate on one level and yet sort of almost on the outside, almost clownish on others. Did you sense that he was very close to the president when you started interacting with him? Well, yeah, that was the whole thing. Like, I knew before anybody else and that's when everybody, nobody understood how close Rudy was with him. I understood because I was with Rudy for almost 24 hours a day at certain points for morning

to night. Love, as a guy who used to work for Rudy, I'm sure you learned that he can stay up all damn night. It's incredible. I don't know. This man has. I agree with you, Rick. I mean, and the cigars. And I mean, but yeah, he's, I mean, when the Mueller thing happened, I mean, for a week straight, we would be up at like 4.35 in the morning. We would start doing the shows and be done with the shows by like Laura would be the last one, probably 11 o'clock would be done by 1112. I mean, so, and then come back to the hotel and drink, you have drinks and well, I don't drink, but they would have drinks and smoke cigars until probably another hour, hour and a half.

And then it would be, I don't know how he did, but incredible, yeah. In the Operation Against Mueller, how central was Rudy to that by your observation? He was very key. Rudy's very key. He has the president's ear. That's the most important part.

And that's what I think now the country's starting to realize, even though after the whole Ukraine thing, he got on the back burner, but now he's starting to come out again. He's very, you could have seen he gave his RNC speech, Trump is very close. They have a lot of things and going back in a lot of years and you know, Rick, you've been with Rudy. You know how Rudy operates. You know how Rudy talks, Rudy does things and they have that type of a relationship where I think you can't break it. And a lot of people, look, Rudy always used to tell me and it was funny. He would at first I didn't realize it, but down the road I understood it. He goes, I'm the only person that could sit down with the president one-on-one because of our attorney-client privilege. Even the chief of staffs have to leave. That's why they hate me at the White House. That's why whenever he would want to walk in there, nobody would want to be there

because he would make everybody leave and they would have those conversations one-on-one. But the interesting part is what nobody knew was a lot of those conversations came after our meetings with the team, as I called, at the upstairs at the Trump Hotel. You know, so you'd have these meetings and then Rudy would go right afterward to the White House to speak to him, and it would be hilarious. Do you think Rudy has an October surprise? Rudy? No, I don't think. The only surprises I'm worried about is from the DOJ and that. I don't think, Rudy has no surprises. That's why I understood it was all a fake. It was all a sham sitting in the jail cell on the state. This was a time where they supposedly, if they were trying so hard to get all this propaganda out, it was supposed to be all this information, breaking news. Well, here it is. You know, how come they didn't try to go in front of the Senate, the Congress, How come nobody tried to, how come they tried to keep me quiet and shut me up? So that's when I understood.

It was all propaganda. It was all basically, it was never about getting the truth out. It was all about 2020 and basically trying to influence the way people thought. Because Rudy is a shrewd. He's been around many years in politics. And Trump hasn't. And that's why Trump trusts him a lot. So when it comes to, that's why you see Rudy around the campaigns.

And they have a model on Trump world that you win at all costs. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what, who has to go down, who has to take a fall. You just take the hit and you move because it's about him. He needs to survive and move on. And Rudy, I didn't know what that went, but I guess, you know, after reading about or hearing about this Roy Cohen business, I think Rudy is for Cohen now. Let me ask you this.

The last day before everything fell apart, you were having lunch at the Trump Hotel with Rudy, Igor, and I don't know who else, but tell me about that day and tell me about the arrest and the indictments and how you felt was when that was happening. Were you surprised? Did you feel like this was something that Rudy set you up with or on? If you could tell us that part of the story, and obviously respecting any legal boundaries we have to observe. Well, it was actually the same day.

I got arrested the same day that we were eating that had that lunch. It was in the morning. It was a day like a good day. We were supposed to be flying that day. We were all set up. I've been very up and because we've been flying. we just got back from Vienna three days ago and we weren't expecting to go. And the only reason that I even decided with Yon Kippur and everything going on is because

it was such an important interview for Rudy and Sean Hannity and the team that we kind of said God will forgive us and decide, you know, we're going to even fly on Yon Kippur. So I was working for like a couple of days prior to that with Sean Hannity and his team to set up a meeting for Rudy and them with Victor Shokin. who was the general prosecutor of Ukraine that supposedly they're trying to say fired Biden to, I mean, Biden fired him to, you know, but which is a... Did you see a lot of coordination between Rudy and Sean Hannity? I mean, yeah, I'm sorry. I mean, yeah, I mean, there was...

The sunrise in the east. Yeah, I mean, it's not only, not only Sean Hannity, but it's like you have to, it's a team. You got Sean Hannity. These are the main players. You have John Solomon. You have Sean Hannity. You have Rudy. You have Victoria and Joe, that duo. And that's like the key information source. And Trump speaks to all of them.

I mean, they have direct phone to all of them. So they all communicate. That's his like inner circle. And then you got the lauras, the talkers, and everybody are on the outside. But his inner inner circle is Sean Hannity, John Salomon, Victoria Tunzing, Dojoldi, Geneva, and Rudy Giuliani, being the head. You know, he manages the team. So, of course, I mean, everything was coordinated.

So a lot of the material they were getting from Shokin and other folks in Ukraine, can you explain to us how that was working, how they were getting, what that process was like, how they, how those contacts were made. Did you facilitate some of those? How did they learn how to find the right people in Ukraine to give them the pushback they wanted? Well, what happened? Well, the way it transpired, it was kind of something that we kind of got cycled into because of Igor had a lot of business in Ukraine and had a lot of relationships in Ukraine. We were also trying. to do a business which was called Global Energy, which was to do, to try to import LNG gas, which was an American game plan and cut off the Russians and try to send it to Ukraine. So because of all of that going on, I think it was in December of 18. One day, Rudy approached us and basically started asking us some questions about Ukraine. And Igor, you knew some of the players Rudy was talking about, and I did the translation. and what actually Rudy told us happen was he was approached by Barge Schwartz, I think was one of his guys,

and had some information from some of his informants that he was, that he took or taking to Lindsay Graham. And somebody else, I don't have the gentleman's name somebody up in that also, I think either a senator or in the state department, I'm not sure, talking about some corruption that was going on between the Poroshenko and Ukraine and. stuff like that. And Rudy started asking us questions, but Rudy's concern mainly was at that time was about the black ledger, about this black ledger. He was like, and about some voting device, I forgot what it's called, something to do with some voting devices. So explain to our audience what the black ledger was and why it was important for Trump and for Rudy. The black ledger was the book that came out that had, was supposed to say, had Manafort supposedly taking bribes or taking bribes. And because of the

black ledger became big issue here and Manafort ended up resigning and so while Manafort was convicted sitting in prison, Rudy was working closely with Manafort and John Downing to Kevin Downing to work on the theory that this ledger was fake and he wanted kept asking Igor and myself like do we know anything about it? Do we hear anything about that stuff like that? So that's when all Ukraine started coming about Basically, you know, we were together every day working on our fraud guarantee project with Rudy. That's what Rudy was supposed to, you know, help come promote and come about and help us get to the next level. So while we're working on the two things side by side, while, I mean, everything's happening side by side. Like here the relationship is growing. Here the, you know, we're working a company together.

And simultaneously, he's asking all these questions of Ukraine. And Igor happens to have all these connections in Ukraine. So it was like a perfect storm. Then all of a sudden one day, Igor came to me and basically asked me if Rudy, if Rudy wanted to speak with this guy Shokkin, who I had no idea at the time. Really, I was just getting into this Ukrainian politics. So starting to understand who was who. What is the truth you want out? The real cabal and the real relationship, what's going around between Rudy, Trump, Victoria, the president's attorneys, David, I mean, Nunoz, Lindsay Graham.

I mean, there's a lot of the backstory, how everything, how they covered up this Ukraine thing. They were all in the loop. Pompeo. I mean, it's unfortunate because Trump moves the news cycle so quickly and because of... Well, I mean, they bet their presidency on this operation that you were involved in, Love, they bet the presidency. And so when you were over in Ukraine and Rudy is there and you're doing all these things to try to facilitate all this, he's talking to the president about these things. Am I right on that? Oh, everything that we would tell the president, everything that was... going on. So that's something that the White House has denied, of course, because they're lying liars who lie. But that's interesting, and I think that's pretty newsworthy. Tell me how, I mean,

one thing I can't, sitting there watching proceedings, the one thing I couldn't understand is what would happen if I sat there. First of all, I want to make it very clear that I never asked for any, I wasn't planning on taking the fifth. I didn't ask for any immunity. All I wanted to is try to get the truth out and be, you know, deposed on their oath and given the chance of re-crime. cross-examined just like they wanted to. But at the end of the day, tell me what kind of scene would play out if, how would Devin Nunez question me or what would he say? Would he deny knowing me when I sat in front of him? Would he play, like, and Derek Harvey still ran back of him. Did you see any evidence of any of Joe Biden involved in any corruption in Ukraine?

No. I mean, between me and you, I mean, at the end of the day, all I saw was a lot of propaganda. That's the same stuff that keeps getting recycled by different sources and different people. If there was, at the end, if there was anything, any true to the story, we would have already seen Rudy's bomb. They would have been bringing all this evidence into Congress. But instead, what they tried to is take all the evidence, or supposed evidence, which was propaganda material that they had me collect. And then they tried to get rid of it and silence me.

So this one, because at the end of the day, all they cared about was getting an announcement, getting the media to look at and changing the cycle. It was never about getting the truth. It was never about any corruption. It was never about any of that. So it was all propaganda. So you didn't see evidence in the stuff you were collecting of any real corruption by Biden. You were getting this stuff, they were getting this stuff from Victor Shokin, who is of the former administration.

Am I correct in that in Ukraine? Correct. It was the former administration. He's from the Paul Manafort installed former pro-Russian government. I don't know if that was, I think that was after Poroshenko, I think was after Paul Mafermachan. Paul Manfred was before the president, before Poroshenko. Yes, I'm sorry. I wasn't clear on my question.

is what I was actually. But in all that information you were being given, and the idea that it wasn't me there, there. So when Rudy is being briefed on this and he's talking to the president about this, was it as cynical as that? It was like, screw it, we'll just dump this out and get the news cycle. We'll just make the lie, we'll just do the big lie

and then hope it works. Or was there disappointment? Were they like, why isn't there more? Why aren't we getting something real? Again, because of the way things were playing out, they were always blaming somebody to do something. So that's how Maria Yovano which became a scapego because all of a sudden she didn't, she denied visa for Shokin to come in to

meet up with Lindsay Graham to give testimony because she now she, so then they start concentrating on her and that became a whole folly of its own and I'm sorry to it's not to make fun of it, but it's a very serious situation. But I mean, if you were just a part of and seeing if the country only knew how she was being dealt with and how the state department, I mean how Pompeo, I mean, Bolton, all of these people were in the mix and how Trump. but I mean, it was just incredible. Was Bolton involved in this? On the contrary, actually, that's why, like I said, when Bolton's book comes out,

they'll probably, I don't know, Bolton, we never had any interaction. But obviously, if you read his book, it validates almost everything that I said, Rachel Maddow before his book even came out. Bolton was against all of this. Bolton had his own agenda. Bolton didn't like Rudy, but Rudy felt that he was the homestine because he helped get him that position. He kind of told Trump to get him that job.

So, but at the end of the day, Bolton still had an issue with him going back before Ukraine with Venezuela. Because when Rudy was dealing with Venezuela, Bolton had an issue with him. He felt that he was getting Trump off track. And then when Ukraine came about, he thought Rudy was a total like, you know, firecracker. Firecracker? I'm saying it in a nice way. So let me ask you a little bit about John Solomon. Did you interact with John very much or did you have much to do with him?

Almost a daily basis. So is he just breathtakingly? like conspiratorial or is he really Or is he in on the con? That's, yeah. Again, he's part of the team. He's part of Trump team. I don't know what con,

whether, you know, I'll let that, that's your, you know, how you describe it. He's definitely, like I said to you, there's the group that has direct phone lines. I mean, there's lots of people

that call him, but direct that have, like, when it's time to pardon somebody, when it's time to put an ambassador in somewhere, when it's time to make some sort of a decision. That's the group that, He's, when you see Trump up there and saying, I heard from people or people have been telling me, that's the sign that who's been telling you?

That's the group. Got it. So when Trump talks about Antifa air, that's coming from? Absolutely, because they're the number one sorrows, anti-soros. When you're part of that cult, it's your anti-soros, your Antifa, it's the end of the world. It's Trump world or any other way. Will you talk about Mike Pompeo? Sure.

Mike Pompeo. He's an interesting individual. Rudy and him obviously are not buddy-bodies and don't get along. Rudy had his view of foreign policy because he wanted to be Secretary of State. Pompeo obviously has his own ambitions. And back in the days when it was Venezuela stuff that Rudy was dealing with, the notion in the group that Pompeo was a plan by the Koch brothers, that he was, him and Trump didn't get along.

But eventually he started showing his loyalty to Trump, and Trump started really liking him, even though Pompeo played his own games on the side. Like what? Like the conversations talking behind Trump's back. I mean, they all make fun of them and stuff like that. And you would hear it in the groups because it would be to different people in the RNC and stuff.

Really? What would they make fun of him for? Dependent on what was the news cycle of the day. Every day was something different. The way he responded something. the way he would do something. But in general, they really butted heads when they came down to Ukraine because at some point Rudy, Victoria, and the team felt that Pompeo was blocking the firing

of Maria Ivanovich. And he was holding back and nobody could understand why. And that became, they became like very, very against each other, everybody on that team. And Pompeo first was against it. Then when the firing happened, he jumped in line very quickly. back to that for one second. So the internal tensions, even in this group of Rudy's supporters, was one of the only reasons we actually ended up hearing about Marie Yovanovitch. If he had just fired her quietly, it might have gone differently. But let me go back to this other part you

just mentioned. And then I want to loop back to another question. I want to get back to on another track. You said they made fun of him. These guys get the joke, right? They understand how strange and how off Trump is. Is that what you're telling me? I mean, except for maybe Don Jr. I mean, everybody, it would be, you know, even Rudy. I mean, it's not, it was not off limits to anybody. As long as he wasn't around or Junior wasn't around, I mean, it was freely, he was laughed at and, you know, depending on what happened and disagreed a lot. Most of the time, they all disagreed with them, but nobody had, it was funny to watch how nobody had, like, the strain to go up against him, that we had the balls to stand up to him.

They made fun of him for what, exactly. I mean, there was a lot of choices, but just curious. If you give me a time period, I'll tell you what. Was it for like his bad decision making or his? Yeah, it was as bad the way he would talk, the way he, his bad decision making, the stubbornness that he would go into like I remember with Charlottesville, for instance, they couldn't, when he came out and said there were people on both sides. I thought half the RNC was going to fall off their head.

The Trump, like stuff like that. It would, you know, he'd make a statement and then it wouldn't be just them. It was like I said, it was just also. donors, you go to a Trump event and at the event, like, we're standing laughing at how he, what he did at his last. And it wasn't going to listen to a president. It's like going to listen to an act. Like it was like what's going to be new on the agenda. What's, what, like a bad comic? Right. Like not to make fun of it, but it was like, what's he going to come up? And that's why the rallies were so big because he would make it like, oh, I'm going to come out and nail this one

today. Oh, we're going to come out and nail this one today. And everybody was like kind of, it's hard to explain. I mean, I've never been in a cult before. So I think Trump is actually tries to be a stand-of comedian, but he doesn't realize that, you know, it's like it's one of those things in his world. But do you think who's crazier, Giuliani or Trump? Because I always thought Giuliani was crazier. I mean, they're very equal to each other. I would say it that way. That's why they get along so much. I mean, they, it takes a certain person to go along and sell your soul like that to, because, I mean, This is Mayor Jew. He was the American mayor. I mean, this is a person that could have retired and there could have been a statue of him in New York City.

And instead, like, he can't walk down the street. I would walk sometimes and people would hackle him and say all dirty stuff. And I couldn't imagine that. So I don't know, you know, before just think about the way they're acting the two of them. Besides Rudy and Trump, who else would even dare to deal with OAN? Do you think anybody in Trump world, they're having heart attacks? I could just imagine everybody around there. I mean, it's, it's, the things that I've seen in the past 10 months after this whole thing

blew up has been, it's like been a cleansing. I've been watching this and saying, you know, we're trying to make peace with my family, my kids, and thinking about even just a crazy story, a seven-year-old that when he was four years old and Trump was running for election, he, I have a picture of him, he was in school, they had an election, like, and he was the only one that voted for Trump. All the other kids voted for Hillary Clinton, and he was the only one vote for Trump. And living in the community, it's been, like, different. And he's, like, been like, daddy.

Tried to be, like, outspoken. So a couple of days ago, my wife goes to me, she goes, hey, babe, we really need to talk to him because he now understands. He sees that because he watches TV, like, we talk differently. We feel differently. Before it was Fox 24-7. Now we have all different opinions, views. It's kind of a different environment, and I think when you talk to him. Do you feel like you've been different?

programmed from a cult? Oh, big time, big time. That's why I look. And I think there's a lot of people that are dying to get out of that cult and they just don't know how. Because I tell you, things, I had to hit a brick wall and this thing had to happen the way it happened to me to be able to, because if I would have kept going, whatever happened, I would have lost my family. It was on the verge of losing my kids because it was, it's a terrible world. There's, and thank God I'm out of it. I could tell you that much. So at this moment that when you're a rescue, there were a lot of other things going on at that moment in terms of the impeachment, the hipsy, all these other things that were happening. Can you walk us through some of that?

Absolutely. About probably, like I said, the reason I was so tired is because I just came back from Vienna like three, four days prior to that because I was there with Victoria and Joe working on Dimitri Firtis's case that they were, you know, putting together their information that they were going to go in front of Bill Barr. And all of a sudden, the Hippsy letter came. It wasn't a subpoena. It was just a regular demand letter that was published and I was in Vienna at the time. And I called Rudy right away to say what do we need to do to respond to make sure that we're all in compliance. Rudy said that give him a second. Let me think of, you know, which lawyer is to get, we need to hire, get a lawyer to represent us. Going back and forth,

finally he came up, called me up and said, he johned out. He said it would be good. He's, I know him for a long time and plus he loves the president. He was the president's attorney, so he's a good man. And I got excited because, you know, at that point I'm still, I was, you know, looking at Trump as the man. And so I was excited to have his lawyer obviously represent me. He called me up John Dowd about 20 minutes later and said to me that he thinks we probably have a problem and he's not going to be able to represent me because of his some work he's still doing for the president. There might be conflict and he doubts knowing Trump that he would waive his conflict of interest. I was a little cocky to him, not knowing John Dowd, and I said to him, I think you need to speak to him. I think they'll work it out.

About a half hour later or an hour later, I don't remember exactly, he calls me back and started a conversation with, oh, you're one lucky man. I just got a call from Jay Sekulow. He just spoke to the boss. Trump approved for me to represent you. He's getting it all documented, sending it to me, and then all I'll need is a check from you and I'll officially represent you. So that's when I said, what do we do next? He told me I need to fly in to immediately to his house in, not sure where it was somewhere outskirts of Massachusetts. And I flew in from Vienna there.

He asked me to stay with him because he wanted for us to spend, he was only going to be there for a day so he could get timelines and stuff. And I thought it was kind of weird because I liked my privacy, but I figured what the heck. I stayed with him, slept at his house. house. The next morning we woke up, ate breakfast, then sat down. First thing, he told me he was already in touch with Rudy and Victoria and Jay, and then we're going to have a call set up to go over stuff. We sat there, discussed our timeline. His wife Carol was taking notes. And then he got on a call

with Jay Succolo, Rudy, Victoria, and Joe, and started talking about first Jay explained what Cipollone said and what their position was and what letter they were drafting. And what's his name, Dow told them that what position that we were going to be taking, and that me and Igor would have all kinds of protection because we were, not only was Giuliani and Tunzing our lawyers, but we also were working for the president through Giuliani on his legal team and that they were putting all together. So we wouldn't have to then testify in front of Congress. But in the meantime, he said that you need to bring all the stuff. Let's plan on meeting. a couple of days and getting all our stuff together, all your info together so I could start

collecting all the things that the house was asking for. About a day later, he called me up, he said that he spoke with the team and that Kevin Downing should be joining our team, that we should agree to that. I had no issue with that, so we agreed to then Kevin Downey joining our team. We met up again in Washington, at which point we were to, when Kevin joined our team, the census was that we probably are still going to have to testify if we get subpoenaed. So I was always under the impression that I'm going to testify, and that's where we're collecting the information. So I brought them all the information I had that I had thought I had, that I could have

collected in a couple of days and brought over to them. And then my secretary, Deanna, was with them at the time, downloading my text messages and all the stuff that they were trying to collect that was part of the subpoena. So I want to go back to that one, that moment where, you're in the restaurant and you're about to go to the airport and it's all normal, right, at the last day here. It's all normal. Everything seems like you're continuing this mission you've been on to help Rudy and to help Trump. You get to the Dulles Airport and you're arrested. What went through your mind? It was extremely strange and it was like surreal because you have to understand I was supposed to be on that trip. With me was supposed to be Rudy, Victoria, Joe. We were all supposed to be together on that trip. So it kind of felt and I just left Rudy. And the funny part is Rudy had called the DC police or whatever at the airport to walk us through, like give a special like to hook us up. So I thought it was, at first I didn't believe it was real. I couldn't believe it was real. It was happening. I didn't understand what was happening. I was planning on going to sleep

because I was so tired from all these flying and I knew I had to wake up and set up the sense of you for Sean Hannity and then fly back two days later. So it was like, it was surreal. I can't, it was really crazy. I've never been arrested in my life. I've never had handcuffs put on me. I've except for watching it on TV. That's the closest I've ever been to something like that. And it was a really... Was Rudy supposed to be on that flight with you? Oh, absolutely.

At the last minute, they canceled. So let me ask you this. When you were getting the cuffs put on, were you thinking Rudy fucked me? Did that cross your mind? I mean... Did Rudy know you were getting arrested? Well, this is what I'm saying to you.

At that moment of cereal, my first thoughts were literally, all of these, like, you got to understand, until I saw the judge, until the judge said a million dollars they wanted five million in the beginning and then a million then until kevin downing turned around to me and said to me okay just be quiet and don't say a word we're gonna i didn't even understand what was going i couldn't understand i felt like you know i was like el chapo or somebody there i couldn't understand you know i'm asking like what that we do what are we being charged with like are they telling me federal elections and i'm like but we have a lawyer he's dealing with every spy like that they told me that's like nothing like you're i mean not to make light of it but it's like we're dealing with it like we're dealing with it like what is going on. And that was really shocking. So for the first couple of days, I couldn't understand and I was, you know, waiting for the cavalry to come in. I was waiting for Rudy, Victoria. I mean, I understand. These are also lawyers. These are also my lawyers. I mean, they all are

not just, these are all supposed to be my lawyers. Rudy's my lawyer. Victoria and Joe's my lawyer. Kevin Downing is my lawyer. And here, here I am sitting in a jail and nobody's coming around. Not only is nobody coming around, but it's like everybody's distance themselves from me, my family. Like I speak to my wife. My wife's telling me nobody's picking up the phone on her. All of a sudden, I'm not allowed to even see newspaper articles or nothing. They're holding me like some kind of, again, like it's so strange because I've never been arrested. I don't know what properly is, but just being from people on the inside that were telling me while I was there for two weeks,

they told me the only other person they saw dealt with like that was El Chapo's henchman that was their project. to me, what's it called, that they saw? So I could imagine that it wasn't pleasant sleeping 24 hours with lights on and all of that stuff. So it's kind of weird the way I was being treated for supposed an election fraud campaign violation. But it really hit me. It was a combination of things where I understood that something really sinisterous happening is when, first of all, all of a sudden, my meeting with Kevin Downing and John Dowd inside the jail where they were basically telling me that I need to just man up and shut up and just they'll figure it out. In the meantime, they were going to get Igor out, and they signed some kind of paperwork that I would have to wait there until I got

bailed out. I mean, something I couldn't even understand, and they wouldn't even explain to me. It got very heated, where at a point I told them, if you don't get out of here right now, it's going to get really bad, and downing pressed the button, and police, I mean, they came in, the sheriffs and got them out of coming. That was the last I've seen of them. So at some point, I had no attorneys, no nothing. All of a sudden that evening, or the following, you know, I don't remember exactly which day was, I'm laying in myself, and all of a sudden there's this postcard that slipped underneath my door.

And I thought I was like a mirage because I'm in jail. I'm in, there's, I don't have nothing, like, except for a little two-inch toothbrush and a little piece of soap. And I don't, and here it is this, like, this under, I look out the window, I don't see anybody there. So I pick it up and it's a postcard from the White House and Rudy Giuliani telling me how sorry he was for missing his trip to Vienna with me and not to worry that I have a good lawyer that Downing only got pulled like seven and a half years. Well, that must have come as a relief. I was like, oh my God. Like I didn't understand. I thought I was in a looney tune. I thought I'm in

crazy. I couldn't believe this is happening. You know, it's like watching a movie. If this was a movie, you wouldn't believe that this could be really true. You'd think it was made up. And you couldn't... So how did Rudy sustain himself financially? Did you ever have any clue on that? Because I kept hearing rumors during that time, because the divorce and everything else, he was short on cash. And was he paid by the White House at all? Or was he paid by the RNC? Did you ever hear how he was keeping his body and soul together? Oh, I know how he was... I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But I just, from what I know is different countries, different lobbyists, different organizations that he would go. work with side deals with. I mean, take a look at all the things he was involved with, and you could see

what it got in. So would you say that the people who were involved with Trump the most were Lindsay Graham and Devin Nunes, the electeds? From my standpoint that I saw that we're directly involved were Lindsay Graham, Devin Nunez and Mark Meadow. But also, just for a funny note, I was supposed to meet, Rudy and Lindsey Graham were supposed to meet the day or two prior to my arrest. And John Dowd and Jay Suckalo stopped the meeting because they were scared the press was going to see me, Rudy, and Lindsay together. That was like two days before. Succollo called Dowd and they started calling me, my secretary, like, you guys can't meet, tell Rudy that to meet. And Rudy was making fun saying, we're going to meet wherever we need to meet. They'll tell the lawyers to shut up.

So you offered yourself up to Congress. You said, I'll tell you everything. No reservations, no conditions, right? You told Congress you'd come out and you'd give them the full story. Rick, Molly, till this day, I tell Congress in the Senate, and I hope that one day they take me up on it. They need to hear the whole story, absolutely. I think you might get a chance to tell the whole story to the Senate in January. I will. If things go as planned. On that note, we'll wrap up this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast.

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