The Daily Beast Podcast - Should Democrats Bother Going on Fox News?

Episode Date: July 29, 2022

If you’ve surfed the internet over the course of the last few years, there’s no doubt you may have stumbled across at least one viral clip of U.S. Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg on Fox News. For Buttigieg, going on Fox News is “a no-brainer", Lis Smith, author of Any Given Tuesday: A Political Love Story, and senior advisor for Buttigieg's 2020 presidential campaign, told Molly Jong-Fast on this week’s episode of The New Abnormal. Then, Olivia Julianna, a 19-year-old activist and strategist for Gen Z For Change, reflects on her work as a fundraising powerhouse and her reaction to Florida Rep. Matt Gaetz’s attempts to humiliate her after arguing that overweight and unattractive women don't need to worry about getting pregnant or needing abortions. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Molly Zhang Fast, no relationship to Kim Jong-un. I'm a left-wing pundant and a writer at the Atlantic Invo. And I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart, conversations with the wisest and funniest and funniest people in science and media and politics that help make what's happening today clearer. Our world has been turned upside down, and on the new abnormal, we'll talk about the people who got us into this mess and how we'll hopefully get ourselves out of it. Man, this is one hell of a show today. We're first going to talk to Liz Smith, who's the author of Any Given Tuesday, a political love story, and of course a veteran Democratic strategist for campaigns like Mayor Pete and Obama. And she's going to talk to her new book.

Then we're going to talk to Olivia Giuliana. You may know as an activist and strategist for Gen Z for Change, who's caused quite a stirer having a a dust up with one Matt Gates. But first, let's have some fun. Andy Levy. Molly Jongfest? I have big important news. What?

What is it? Whatever could it be? The RNC is so pathetic that they are trying anything they can to get Trump to not announce before the midterms. But because they're so pathetic, they're having trouble thinking of something, right? So they have decided that if he announced, now, they're not. announces before the midterms, they will stop paying his legal fees. Because I don't know if you know this, but the leader, the de facto leader of the Republican party is in quite a lot of legal trouble.

It is, I mean, first of all, it's absurd that the Republican National Committee is paying Trump's legal fees to begin with. And it's pathetic. Wait, what? I know. I'm doing that thing again where I go out on a limb and you have to pull me back. That's right. I apologize. I apologize to our listeners. I apologize to our viewers who watch us.

From their windows in a very creepy way. On KGBL in Columbus, Ohio. The live feed of us. This is absolutely insane. But I love their logic for it. Their logic is, well, if he's running for president, then they can't help him with legal bills because that would violate their neutrality policy where they have. to treat all candidates equally. And it's just hilarious. But I think what we're seeing here in its own pathetic way is the RNC doing what Ruper Murdoch did this weekend, which was they stack the deck for Trump.

And now all of a sudden, after Liz Cheney handcuffed herself to him and jumped into the ocean, it would be very hard for Merrick Garland not to charge Trump when every fucking day you have two Republicans up there being like Trump did crimes. Yes, but don't underestimate Merrick Garland. Yes, I won't. Don't worry. I have Alvin Bragg. We live in the city of Alvin Bragg. Exactly. We're sorry, Trump didn't do enough wrong. And besides which, I mean, Jesus fucking so, no, I still have faith that Mara Garland could fuck this up, but I do think that January 6th committee, you like it, you don't. And look, no. one here is a fan of Les Cheney's. I want to say that again, for those of you in the back,

we're not voting for her. We don't like her. Dad probably belongs in the Hague. But I'm not even, I mean, I'm saying probably because I don't want to get sued. But I think what's really important about this story is like they are starting to think, how can they have an open primary and get out of this thing? Of course, the question is, if you have an open primary with Trump, I mean, And it's like the world's most fucked up math problem, right? Like open primer with Trump, you would have to only have one candidate. Otherwise, you're going to have what happened in 2016, right? Which is Marco and Ted split the vote.

And then all the lunatic fringe goes for Trump. And he wins, even though he only has 20% or 25%. Certainly, when Biden looked like he was going to win, people decided that Biden should be the pick. and they did in a very graceful and gracious way, and it was smart and it worked. And that's what Republicans would have to do if they wanted to get rid of Trump. I think what you're saying is,

what I'm taking from what you're saying, is Trump tends to suck the oxygen from all the other candidates if he's running. That's what we saw in 2016. You have to get the plurality, right? You can't do that if you have three other candidates because they'll split the vote. You can't have Trump versus five people.

You have to have Trump versus one person. And then maybe you have a shot. Yes, I think both those things are true. But I do also think that you could have, I mean, you know, you could have four other candidates who were not. Look, in 2016, Cruz and Rubio seemed like saner choices than Trump. I mean, we know now that that's not accurate. I actually wonder if Cruz is worse or as bad as Trump.

He's phonier. So in a way, he's worse. But the point is, like, I think in 2024, you're not going to see a bunch of of, you know, the candidates you're going to see, if you're going to see like a DeSantis or and people like that, it's not going to be people who seem particularly saner than Trump on the issues anyway. Right. They may seem saner in temperament.

It might be a slightly different beast in 2024, but I still think your point holds. I think that if Trump runs, it's going to be tough to unseed him because he has the cult like following. And he does just, he draws the attention. He says the things that draw the attention and the way he acts, draws the attention and it makes it difficult for someone else in the room. I'm not sure that's as true anymore, though. We don't know if the RNC will win against Trump, but I do hope they destroy each other in the process.

Boris Epstein, I was Googling him earlier today only to learn he was born in 1983, which means, no, swear to God. Look it up right. Oh, 1982, which means he is four years younger than Jesse and I. and 14 years younger than you, Andy Leaver. That's amazing. And Andy Levy, he could be your son. Amazing.

Well, Boris Epstein went to Georgetown and now is going to jail. Okay, look, is he going to jail? Maybe he's not going to jail. But it certainly looks like he's in a lot of trouble. So what we're about to talk about is that he wrote alternative electors sounds better than fake electors and then put an emoji after it. So his youth is why he used the emoji, obviously. Well, what emoji did he use?

It's like the winky smile. No, he didn't do that. That was in the email to him. Oh, okay, okay, okay. I think there's a good point here, though, which is if you're going to do crimes, don't use emojis. It makes you look stupid.

Yeah, so let's lay out what happened here. So, Pschstein, Epstein. I feel like this is anti-Semitic. Is he Jewish? We should point out, though, that he was famous for being the Sinclair Broadcasting Propagandist. Right, exactly. No, he sucks.

I mean, anyone who gets involved in this kind of thing, but he could still be Jewish. He is Jewish, sorry. Okay. I'm also sorry. Yes, I'm sorry, too. Not good for the Jews. As a Jew myself, we're not going to take him.

No. Yeah. So he was part of the crew working with such notable crime doers as Rudy Giuliani and Mark Meadows. We call it the gang that couldn't think straight or at all. Yes. Someone wrote a letter in an email to Epstein, a lawyer in Arizona named Jack Wollenshick wrote that alternative votes is probably a better term than fake votes and then put a little

smiley face emoji after it, which... Just like Kelly Ann used to say alternative facts, remember that? Yeah, I think people have tried this before. You can't get out of crimes by saying, well, I put a happy, like, you can't write LOL after something, I think, and then get out of it. You'd be like, I was kidding. Because you say I was kidding. Because they weren't kidding.

And, you know, so, yeah, Epstein might be going to jail. Oh, and he was friends with Eric Trump. Yeah, that would not in any way be a shame. It's really, it's a real, just murderers row of people that he quarre. coordinated with Jenna Ellis, Bruce Marks, John Eastman. Oh, my God. It's just like he was knee deep in this and, or hip deep or shoulder deep. Neither the best nor the brightest. There's a lot of fun stuff going on here, like sort of under the surface of the January 6th committee. And by fun, we mean, we mean the death of democracy is mildly amusing. Well, yes, of course, of course. But I, well, by fun, we mean that some of these people might actually go to, jail.

Yeah. Or might not. I refuse to underestimate Merrick Garland's Department of Justice, but I would, you know, I would like to think that some of these people will, you know, do that thing where they actually do the time for committing the crime. Hilarious. Yeah. Who knows?

I don't mind being wrong when it comes to our planet. I had really thought that West Virginia's own Joe Mansion would doom any kind of climate provision. And again, we don't know because it hasn't passed yet, but chips passed. And then after chips passed, which is this Chips Act to build, you know, semiconductors here, which is something we really need because it's not good. You're not going to be able to get a phone. You're not going to be able to get a car. It's good to be able to make your own semiconductors. And since we don't have a super tight labor market, it's not like we definitely need more jobs here. But anyway, good to build stuff here. It's good for any number of reasons. It's one of the rare bipartisan situations that we have.

Anyway, it got passed and then Schumer was able, it looks like, and again, it's early days, to convince Mansion to support a sort of climate reconciliation deal, which would be super exciting. And so, look, if it happens, Bravo Chuck Schumer, I will be the first to be thrilled. Andy, thoughts, questions, comments, discuss. Yeah, I also am happy when you are wrong. And I think it's, yes, this is good. It's good that Mansion is on board with this bill. That said, I am, I think the best way for me to put it about this is I'm cautiously pessimistic.

No, that's good. Well, because, you know, cinema's not on board yet. And who the hell knows with her, she has a lot of donors to answer to. and they may not like the bill. She has to check with them. And she said she'll get back to us next week, I think. And let us know how they told her to vote. Happy to hear it. Yeah. So look, we'll see what happens. And it also, you know, they have to make sure that the Senate parliamentarian allows it to be approved on a 50 vote count instead of the 60 that you usually need for stuff like this. So who the hell knows? But how does the Senate parliamentarian have this much power? I just, I don't understand. understand it. How does the Senate parliamentarian have as much power? I don't know. Republicans, when they had the same opportunity, they just fired the parliamentarian. Exactly. But anyway,

look, I hope this works out. I'm, I was pleasantly shocked, uh, as I think most people were when this was reported a day or so ago. And the nice thing about this is that just from a petty, spiteful perspective. I love a petty spiteful perspective. That's my favorite perspective. Sometimes it's the best perspective, yeah. Yeah. Is that, Mitch McConnell got played. Maybe. Maybe. Well, we'll see what happens.

If this bill goes through and passes, then yes. I do hope it's true. You know, hopefully we'll find out Mitch McConnell got played because he said that he would not allow a vote on the chips bill if there was going to be the... Anything good for the plan had happened ever. Right. Was going to come up for a vote. And he sort of got that deal.

And then the chips bill went through. And then like a day or two later, you know, they were like, Schumer was like, okay, I reached a deal with Mansion, and we're going to put it up for a vote. So that is the petty, spiteful, fun part of this. But obviously the important part is that at least maybe this bill will start something going so that I don't have to buy a rebreather and scuba gear in order to live on this planet in 2030. I mean, that's the hope, right? That is the hope. That is the hope.

Liz Smith is the author of Any Given Tuesday and a Democratic strategist. Welcome to New Abnormal, Liz. Thanks for having me, Molly. So I wanted to talk to you. First of all, congratulations on your book being a bestseller. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, my God.

I'm still, like, on cloud line about it, but I really appreciate that. I want to talk to you about Mallory McMorrow, who you work with. So talk to me about she just released these, like, incredible fundraising. numbers. Right. And the woman who attacked her raised $250. Talk to me about how Democrats, I mean, it seems like what we're seeing is that Democrats can punch back at the way Republicans do these disgusting things to get their base excited. Democrats can do these not disgusting things to get their base excited. Talk to me about that. Yeah. So just, I mean, the background on that is,

Mallory McMorro was called a groomer by one of her Republican colleagues in the Michigan Senate. The attack came in and fundraising email from her Republican colleague. Mallory then gave a speech that went mega viral where she pushed back on the attack and spoke out as a straight Christian mom and said, you know, that hate won't win and really provided a playbook for Democrats on how. how to push back against these claims, these disgusting claims from the right of, you know, whether they're groomers or sexualizing children or promoting pedophilia,

all the worst sort of QAnon dog whistles. The best part is what came out publicly today is that after all of this unfolded, the woman who launched the attack made $235 off the fundraising email, while Mallory raised over a million. dollars because of it, which is just incredible. And over a million dollars is an incredible sum for a state senator in Michigan. And it's going to go a long way toward Maori's goal of flipping the Michigan state Senate. But what it does show is that we don't

have to cower and fear when it comes to all of the culture wars. We don't need to go down, you know, every single rabbit hole that the Republicans want to go down and, you know, turn every public policy debate. into a biology class. But what it shows is that Democrats do like fighters. They do like people who push back. And that Republicans on some of these culture wars really are overplaying their hands. And on social issues generally, what we've seen in recent weeks is that the Republicans

turn to the far right has really backfired on them with voters of all stripes. and it has really helped, I think, juice Democratic enthusiasm that hasn't been there before. Yeah, I think it seems like it. So one of the things that you believe in, which I'm curious about, is you talk a lot about Democrats going on Fox News and Mayor Pete has done that pretty well. Explain to me the rationale for that. Well, it depends on what type of Democrat you are and where you're running. So let's use the example of Mayor Pete. I could also talk about this topic forever, Molly.

And for Mayor Pete, going on Fox is a no-brainer. And on that campaign, going on Fox was an absolute no-brainer. First of all, there's this idea that no Democrats watch Fox, which is completely, completely misguided. About a third of all Democrats to get their news from Fox News. And that includes, and it's the same across racial demographics, white Democrats, Latino Democrats, Black Democrats, And the Fox News audience, as we know, is monumentally larger than both CNN and MSNBC.

So you do reach a, you know, a large number of Democrats. And when Pete went on during the campaign, you know, his first big moment on Fox News was the Fox News Town Hall. So he goes on Fox News in May of 2019. And in the week beforehand, Elizabeth Warren says, you know, how basically how dare he? It's a hate for profit racket and he's going to help prop up their advertisers and all that sort of stuff. You know, as if Elizabeth Warren not going on Fox News somehow is going to make it bankrupt or, you know, make it not successful. I mean, it's the height of delusion. But with Pete, he went on.

There were 1.1 million viewers for the town hall, which was three or four times the audience that we had for any of his CNN or MSNBC town halls. But then he goes on Fox News and he denounces both Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham for their recent hateful comments. I think at the time it was something about, you know, usually their favorite target, I think is immigrants. I think it was something related to that. And he gave this masterful response on abortion that has since gone viral, I think, like seven different times. It's like people rediscover it every few months where he pushed back on Republican talking points on late-term abortion. And it was just a brilliant performance that went viral. And so it wasn't just the 1.1 million people who tuned into Fox who saw it.

Because the next day I had, you know, my media team track it and get me all the coverage. It led every single hour of MSNBC and CNN. It was picked up by the New York Times, Washington Post, entertainment outlets like TMZ and People magazine. And the secondary coverage was even bigger than the one. 1.1 million people who tuned into the town hall. And so Pete, going on Fox News, he didn't capitulate to, you know, Fox's worst instincts. He didn't capitulate to their worst hosts. He didn't go on and spew Republican talking points. If anything, he gave really important counter programming to the Fox News audience. And that's why I believe Democrats should go on because while we know that some of their hosts might be acting in bad faith, a lot of their viewers aren't. And that's, the only way that they get their news. And that's the only way they're ever going to hear from Democrats. And what does it say about us as a party? If we are too good, too pure to talk to millions and millions of Americans who frankly need to hear our message, the message I think it sends is

that we don't care about them. We don't want their votes. In the 2020 campaign, it was really important to provide a contrast with Donald Trump, who was only going on media outlets that reinforced his worldview that were right-wing. He didn't do CNN, I think, once during his presidency. So my question for you is, I don't think people think they're too good for Fox. I think they feel that if like a place like OAN, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but if you're going on a place like that, you're giving it legitimacy and also you're helping to give them programming. And also, they don't tend, I mean, you'll see a lot of times, certainly with Tucker Carlson, you'll see that these interviews will get edited in ways that you don't necessarily

see coming. OAN is a whole different beast. I wouldn't advise any Democrat to go on OAN. But the idea that Fox is illegitimate is, and I know you're not saying that it's ill, legitimate. Well, I'm just saying you're enabling something by going on it, right? You're helping them make programming and sell ads. I disagree with that. I know, I think what you're doing is you're communicating with people. And I understand that that is a popular talking point, but like, and I'm not saying that you're espousing that talking point. But if you don't go on there, then you are not talking to voters. And what is the point of being a leader if you're not willing to do that? And Fox is going nowhere. And it's not going to go. It's not going to go. It's not going to.

lose legitimacy because Pete Buttigieg or Elizabeth Warren or Kamala Harris or Joe Biden doesn't go on there. It's still going to be around. It just means that voters won't be hearing from us. And when Pete goes on there, I've never once had a candidate go on Fox News and, you know, had their interviews, you know, deceptively edited or anything like that. Sure, after they do a live hit, they'll have hosts maybe attack them. But yeah, welcome to the big game. That's what happens in politics. And they be attacked whether or not they went on Fox News. So the option is do you just go on MSNBC and preach to the choir and then have that clip played on Fox News deceptively? Or do you go on Fox News and make your case directly to the Fox audience? I want to talk to you about Cuomo. There's a lot that

went down in a really tough way. I actually want to talk to you more about how Cuomo's power hungriness backfired on him and on us. And I'm hoping you could talk a little bit about that because I think there's a really interesting lesson for Democrats and also, you know, a sort of moral lesson about what Cuomo did. And I mean, ultimately if, and it seems like they will, Democrats lose the House, it will be in large part because of a deal that Andrew Cuomo made. The nonpartisan redistricting. Well, that was actually voters voted for the referendum that created that. Well, they voted in 2014, but he created it in 2012. I think if Democrats lose the House, it's not because of Andrew Cuomo. I think that there's a lot to blame. Right, but I mean,

there are 10 seats that Democrats could have picked out. Yeah, well, you know, I think a lot of that talk to the voters of New York who voted for the nonpartisan thing. Right. Yeah, but they didn't vote until after Cuomo made that deal in 2012. If Cuomo hadn't introduced it, it wouldn't have existed, and no one would have voted, and there wouldn't have been nonpartisan redistricting, right? I think the goal of nonpartisan redistricting is one that Democrats should support, and Democrats generally should support.

Why? I think we should have nonpartisan redistricting all across the country in all 50 states. Yeah, but we don't. We have Democrats losing the House. We have 191 safe red seats and 162 safe blue seats. So Democrats supported redistricting and Republicans now get the House. How does that work? Well, I think Republicans get the House because it's a midterm and the voters generally go against the party.

I'm just saying the math is these are the safe seats already. So even if Democrats 161 safe seats versus 191 or 162 versus 191, that has nothing to do with midterms. That has everything to do with redistricting. So the question is like it's all fine and good to support. centrist candidates. And I know that's largely who you work for. But if you're undermining democracy, even if you don't know you're doing it, like what is happening? I think that nonpartisan redistricting actually reinforces democracy. And I don't know that I generally work for centrist candidates. I work for reasonable candidates. But how would that be true when it comes to, I mean, you're going to have a

House majority leader, Jim Jordan. Like, how does that help democracy? Well, no, I look, I totally hear point, but I look, I'm one of those people who supports nonpartisan redistricting. I think we should have it in all 50 states. But we only have it in blue states. I get that Democrats shouldn't unilaterally disarm, but again, point I would take up with the New York voters who voted for this. Right. But I'm telling you, the vote was two years after 2010 Cuomo ran on nonpartisan redistricting for a second term because he wanted to run for president because he wanted to look nonpartisan. 2012, he makes a deal in the middle of the night, which involves a budget nonpartisan redistricting. He throws that redistricting to a group of judges, many of whom he's picked.

This is the kind of thing Cuomo did. Kathy Hockel was on here the last episode. She said that she said you can draw a straight line for Democrat nonpartisan redistricting in the state of New York to Andrew Cuomo. I mean, look, Andrew Cuomo, he's got the allegation. He's got the this, he's got the that, he's got the brother with the CNN. He's got, look, there are a lot of things to pick out Andrew Cuomo for, but in my mind, his biggest legacy will be this. Point noted. And I guess this is just something where we fundamentally disagree.

But look, I understand your point. I just do not think that politicians should draw their districts. I think that district should be nonpartisan. Look, we clearly, clearly, clearly disagree on this issue. But in a situation like this where Republicans are lying, cheating and stealing to win the House, shouldn't Democrats fight fire with fire? I mean, you want them to go on Fox News. Why don't you want them to try to keep the House? I don't think that the way for Democrats to win is to be liars, cheaters, and stealers.

I don't think that's how the Democratic Party works. I don't think that's us when we are best. I don't think that's what voters respond to. Well, the idea that for Democrats to beat Republicans is that we have to be Republicans is fallacious. to me. And that was a viewpoint that was espoused by a lot of people about Donald Trump, that to beat Donald Trump, we had to be him. And no, actually, we had to be the complete opposite of him. And that's how Joe Biden was able to win and beat him in 2020. I'm actually not saying that. I'm just saying that if one party is partisan redistricting and stealing the house, then you should

do partisan redistricting too, because losing the house in the end is worse. But the other thing is, like, Cuomo didn't do this because he had a love of democracy. He did this because he thought it would help his presidential race. But that is neither here nor there. He's not going to be president anymore. And frankly, never was. He was not someone who was built for a national campaign. I mean, could you imagine that guy in Iowa?

Give me a break. But here's a question for you. You were on CNN this weekend and you said, we don't need to prosecute Donald Trump. We need to beat him at the ballot box. I profoundly disagree with this. And I'm curious, do you, really believe that? No, and frankly, I think you're misreading what I said, which is that you and I

can't control whether Donald Trump gets prosecuted. You and I can control who we vote for. It's ultimately up to the DOJ. It's ultimately up to, you know, U.S. attorneys and places like Georgia to prosecute him. I don't have prosecutorial powers. But what I can do is I can vote for Democratic candidates. I can vote for Democratic candidates who are standing up against Trumpism. And I encourage everyone to do that. I think there is a very misguided view on the left at times that there we need divine, that there's going to be this divine intervention that's going to help us beat Trump. That was a view of the Mueller report. And it never happened. And so as voters, we have to take our responsibility seriously. Do I think that Donald Trump is unfit for office

and the DOJ should prosecute them? Sure. But you understand that, of course I do. I, broke the law. I mean, like, you can't do a coup, a sort of larger issue here. If you're married Garland and you decide, well, you know, Trump wanted to overturn the election, but it didn't work, right? It was only an attempted coup. And it would be too divisive to prosecute him. So let's let him slide on that. You are saying the democracy that doesn't really matter. The crimes don't matter if they're done by someone powerful and important enough. And by the way, that's something we saw again. and again in New York with Sy Vance, right? Sy Vance continually was like, well, this person is too important to prosecute. I mean, I will remind you that he had an opportunity to prosecute Weinstein, and he did not until later when, I mean, the New York machine was built around the idea that affluent white guys should sort of get away with it. And that's why Donald Trump hasn't been in jail now. I mean, only with very few exceptions. Do you find people who are affluent white guys who have ended up going into jail in New York.

And that is quite frankly, because of people like Cuomo. Sy Vance. And I mean, it has been like an affluent white guy crime ring in America. Speaking of America, Arland, yes. Do I think he should prosecute Donald Trump? Absolutely. I don't have his cell phone number. I don't know

what he's doing. I've seen his interviews. And it does seem like the DOJ finally is taking this seriously and is going to act on it. But I mean, I'm just saying, the idea of like we need to beat him on the ballot box. Like if there's no law and it doesn't apply to people, then it doesn't matter how hard you vote, right? I fundamentally disagree with you.

I think people should vote. I think voting is important. And I think that is an incredibly defeatist attitude and is the wrong message to send to voters. No, I obviously think voting is important. I mean, I, you know, but I'm just saying that if you have a DOJ that doesn't give a fuck, then ultimately, it's not a matter how hard you. vote. But who is saying that we have a DOJ that doesn't give a fuck? Well, I'm just saying if

Marrick Garland decides it's too divisive to prosecute Trump and that Trump should have another shot at a coup, then ultimately, no matter how hard you vote. And again, listen, I vote hard. We have lots of candidates on here. All we do is tell people to vote. I mean, we're quite committed. I've never voted for a third party candidate. I mean, I'm not saying by any stretch of the imagination that people shouldn't vote. But I'm just saying that if you have a DOJ that doesn't give a fuck and you're telling people that they have to be the change is kind of preposterous. So I don't think that we have to make a choice there. I think the DOJ can act and that neither you nor I frankly knows what's happening behind the scenes at DOJ, although recent news stories seem to suggest that they

are more active. And look, I understand that it is very popular. for people on Twitter to attack Merrick Garland and try to pretend that they know everything that he's doing. But it is pretty smart of both Merrick Garland and the Department of Justice to act in a manner that is the opposite of how Trump DOJ acted, which is they acted as his personal lawyers. He completely politicized the DOJ. And I understand that there are people, again, on the left, who want us to act the same way that Trump does. that want us to politicize every institution and make them above the law, use it to, you know, destroy the right or whatever it is. But, you know, a race to the bottom isn't going to help anyone.

It's not going to help the Democratic Party and it's not going to help the American people. And so I, for one, am grateful to have a president who believes in the power of our institutions and to have a DOJ that has the integrity to, one, not, you know, go out and, and, prosecute all this in the media, but two, doesn't feel like its job is to act as the president's personal lawyer. But don't you think that they should go out and prosecute in the media? Like, for example, like there's a large part of this country. You just said that gets all its news from Fox, right? A third, a third of all Democrats, that's what you said, got all their news from Fox. Yeah. So if that is true, then Democrats have to go out and prosecute Trump in the media. Well, I think we are.

I mean, wouldn't that make sense? But that's not Merrick Garland. No, no, good prosecutors don't do that. Good prosecutors make the case behind the scenes and then go out and prosecute it. From everything I'm seeing Democrats that are going out and prosecuting the case in the media. But that is very separate from the role of the DOJ. And I do not think that the Biden DOJ should try to emulate the Trump DOJ. And part of the reason why Trump is in the pickle that he is in beyond all the various crimes that he committed on January 6th that are horrifying and undermine our democracy is that he, you know, use these sacred sort of institutions as, you know, his personal employees.

Liz, thank you so much. We're out of time, but that was great. Okay, great. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Olivia Juliana is an activist and strategist at Gen Z for Change. Welcome to the new abnormal, Olivia. Thank you so much for having me.

Well, we're very excited to have you. So first of all, you're 19, right? Yes. Okay, most important. Now, I got sober when I was 19, so I'm like a big fan of being 19. I think it's a very important age. So explain to us this story. You were an activist before Matt Gates.

But you're a fundraising powerhouse now. Explain to us. Yeah. So my first real introduction into abortion advocacy work was last year, Texas right to life put out this tip line where you could report people who have had abortions. And at the time I was a TikToker. I had about 100,000 followers. I called on my followers to send in, quote, very real submissions to this tip line. And we eventually in a date of it. to the point where it was taken down and completely useless. And that organization is like a nationwide org right to life. And they've yet to create another tip line that is like that. So for the last year, I've just heavily been involved in abortion advocacy, especially through social media.

I've spoken at the Texas Capitol multiple times. And this past week, I was not surprised to see Matt Gates doing something very on brand with what Matt Gates does, which is to be disgusting in a creep. Right. He, I saw his video from the Turning Point USA Student Action Summit where he was talking about like abortion rights activists, basically saying like they're all fat and ugly. Right. No, I saw it too. Yeah, and my initial reaction was like, of all people, what room does Matt Gates have to talk

about other people with a cool appearance? So I tweeted about it. He said that in his speech, he was like, Oh, they're all five, three, 350 pounds. And so I tweeted out, I was like, I've actually five, 11, six, four in heels. I wear them to remind small men like you of your place. I guess he didn't like that very much because his response was to tweet out my profile picture, alluding to the fact that I fit the description of what an abortion rights activist is that he gave at his turning point USA speech. honestly people asked me like what my initial reaction was when I saw that he had done that and I laughed I laughed because I knew that I was about to ruin this man's day and now

and so what did you do I shot back on Twitter I quote tweeted it and I said like am I not a little too old for you alluding to the allegations that have been brought forward against Mr. Gates previously in the news. And I also quote tweeted it with a picture of the Beavis and Butthead cartoon. I don't know if you've seen it, but I said you literally look like this. Right. Ratio of the century. I think I got like 50, 60,000 likes.

He got like a thousand. And so from there, I was just like, you know what? I have attention on this now. People are starting to cover it in the news. So I'm going to do what I do best, which is talk about abortion and how we can help people get access to the health care they need. So I tweeted out, in honor of Matt Gates body shaming me, I'm going to start fundraising for abortion funds through the Gen Z for Change, Abortion Fund, which we started after Roe fell. And it has just absolutely gone mega viral since then. I'm just so

blown away with how many people have supported me in this movement. That is so cool. So tell me how much money you raised. As of right now, we've raised a little over. $700,000 in the last three days. Talk to me about the Gen Z activism group and what that is. So Gen Z for Change is a coalition of over 500 digital media creators primarily based on TikTok. And we have a combined audience of about 500 million people. Our main goal as an organization is to promote civic engagement and progressive progress, especially amongst Gen Z. So that's why I, I really laughed when I saw this is because a lot of people think because we're young that we're do-eyed or naive or ignorant when the reality is I'm the leading political strategist for one of the

largest youth-run nonprofits in the country. And we have very successfully fought back against Republican politicians in the past in events that have made national news several times. You're in Texas, right? Yes, Houston, Texas. So what is it like being on the ground there and having a governor who is so committed to not serving the interests of local Texans. That was a good question, very nonpartisan. I hate him. Like with every fiber of my being, I think he's one of the worst people to ever exist. Because like what a lot of people don't realize is there's these like Republican theatrics

and outrage cycles that they have happening consistently over these like cultural issues that are non-existent, like critical race theory and like Abbott specifically, he makes people mad about these very non-existent issues so that he can do things that are extremely harmful and dangerous under the radar. So like we've seen a lot about, oh, like abortion's horrible, we're going to ban abortion. And he does this. So we don't talk about the fact that after the Texas winter storm happened, he made $4.6 million from energy companies and energy industries to his campaign. campaign. So it's just, it's one of the most infuriating things to have to deal with this on a daily basis, but it's also extremely motivating because we're actively organizing against people who

deserve to be organized against. And Abbott is motivating people across the state to vote his ass out in November. So it's truly beautiful and unique is the best way to describe it. So explain to me what's happening with your power grid. Texas decided that regulating the grid was like, a liberal bullshit thing and that they would have their own power grid because they're Texas. And basically it's been an unmitigated disaster. Is that right? Yeah, that sums it up pretty well. Do you have days now in Texas? I mean, it's like 90 plus degrees there where they tell you to conserve energy and that. Can you explain that to us? Yeah, absolutely. So like I was actually, about two weeks ago, I was on a plane to DC for work. And my sister who lives in Houston,

as well, texted me about like, hey, like, we were buying this like backup generator because they're telling us to conserve power again. The governor had asked people to conserve power because like the grid obviously was struggling to keep up with demand because of how hot it was. I think when I flew out of Houston, the heat index was like 114 degrees. And people were being told to like conserve their power. I got a text message from my apartment complex that was like don't use the washers, try not to use your stove, keep the lights off, turn your AC to like 79 degrees. So these are messages and things that Texans are getting both in winter and in summer. And this has been consistently happening since the grid failed. Like I think it was February,

January, February, 2021. So it's happening now on a more and more regular basis. Talk to me about what it's like for a woman who wants to get an abortion in Texas right now. The entire process, is terrifying. I mean, even for me, as just someone who talks about abortion online, I have to be careful with the way that I do it because of the civil enforcement law. And even now, like, the Texas Freedom Caucus, which is in our state legislator, is going after businesses that are wanting to cover travel costs for their employees to get abortion, saying, like, hey, you can't do this. We're going to pass a law that says you can't do this. So, like, the entire process is terrifying because you're actively, every step of the process is being squashed by the Texas government.

I mean, now they're even trying to make it to where you can't even get abortion pills in the mail. Like Abbott's already pushed for that. So in the state of Texas, at this moment, abortion is pretty much non-existent. And even the act of trying to get one could potentially get you in trouble. I mean, women's bodies are literally being criminalized here. It was a few months ago, a woman in Star County was arrested on a murder charge for what was called a self-induced abortion, which is also known as like a spontaneous abortion or a miscarriage. And she was arrested on a murder charge for that. So it's absolutely terrifying to be a woman in this state who wants to make bodily autonomy choices because the government is actively criminalizing your body and taking

away your freedom to choose. That is really scary. And it must be also a woman. it's also scary because if you have a miscarriage, you're a person of interest, right? Absolutely. You medically, you can't tell the difference between a miscarriage and an abortion. If you're a doctor, the treatment for the aftermath is the same. So now people who do have miscarriages could be potentially afraid to even go to the hospital because they could be reported as someone who has had a self-induced abortion. And the precedent has already been said that they literally could be arrested for that.

That is completely crazy. So what are you going to do now? What's your future? I think like everyone talks about my age here. I am a college student. I literally start my sophomore year of college next week. But I'm just going to continue working. Like I have been the last year and a half with Gen Z for Change and with Texas Democratic candidates to try to flip Texas blue and do everything I can with the social media power that I have.

to make a tangible difference in the country and in the world because we need young people who are fighting back for what they believe in and making their voices heard. And I hope I can continue to be one of those voices. Like my generation and Jesse's generation is Generation X and we're like a disaster. We have Trump supporters. I mean, we're just a fucking train wreck. Do you think your generation is different and how? I think so.

I think that our generation has had a really. unique place and history. And the way that we've gone through these kind of generational traumas together, I mean, you have to think we have never lived in a world where like 9-11 didn't happen. Like, I was born after 9-11. So we were born into the war on terror. We dealt with multiple economic recessions. We dealt with school shootings. We dealt with climate change. Like all these different things have happened. And it's not like in the past where it happens and it's on the five o'clock news that you watch with your parents. It's on social media constantly and you have your phone all the time. So you're constantly being inundated with new information about any given

sociopolitical issue that's happening at any given time. And so I think because of that, Gen Z has become hyper-informed and hyper-aware of all of the issues. But it's also So given us tools that no other generation has had access to in terms of mobilizing and organizing to fight back against the things that we think are oppressive or are wrong. And I think that we've seen young people are extremely motivated to fight back against these injustices. I mean, even in the last few election cycles, we've seen more and more young people break records and turn out to vote, especially in 2020. And I 100% attribute that to the usage of social media and mobilizing young voters across the country. Because I know that Jesse and I have talked about this. Like when you see these Turning Point USA conferences where these people are like, I mean, you know, getting excited when Congressman Gates says disparaging things about women, I mean, are you worried for your generation or do you feel there's enough of you guys on the sort of right side of history?

that it'll balance out or that you guys are actually more progressive. Yeah. So I actually grew up in a conservative Christian household in a very small conservative town in Texas. So I have a little bit more insight into what Republicans and conservative people think when it comes to these political issues. And so when I see these conferences and I see other young people who are conservative or Republican, a lot of people's initial reaction is like disgust or angry. but honestly, when I see it, I feel kind of bad because at one point in my life, like, you know, I was one of

those kids who just, I believed everything that I was told by the adults in my life. And it wasn't until I was able to do my own research and form my own opinions that I realized that those talking points I had been fed as a kid were wrong. And so I think that there are a lot more young people who are ready and willing to do the research and make their own opinions and not just listen to what their parents have to say. And I think more and more of us young people who are on the Democratic side are ready and willing to talk to those who are on the opposing political ideology and kind of see if there's any way we can maybe move them more towards our side. I think common grounds and common decency is a lot more common amongst our generation than people would think. I want to end with that

because that's so wonderful. And I hope that I love that. And thank you so much. I'm so moved to have you. I don't think of myself as sensitive, but I'm sort of welling up. Jesse, are you welling up? I am emboldened. Let's not give me too many emotions. Thank you so much. Andy Levy.

Molly Johnfest. Who is your? Fuck that guy. He's a guy who ran for president briefly, and he's a guy who ran for mayor of New York City a little longer, I guess, maybe. Failed to both of them. So what do you do? You, when you consistently fail, you move forward.

Am I right? And so he is starting a new political party, a third party called Forward. See what I did there? He and Christine Todd Whitman, who used to be the governor of New Jersey, before herself becoming a failed presidential candidate, they're going to launch this party in September, and they have an unbelievable little catchphrase. It's how will we solve the big issues,

facing America, not left, not right, forward. That means nothing. That means absolutely nothing. This party means absolutely nothing. At best, all it will do is nothing. At worst, it will maybe siphon some moderates away from the Democrats, is my guess. Yeah. But I don't even think it's going to do that.

These people are, I don't want to say dumb. I guess they're not dumb. But they're foolish and anyone who gives money to this thing is foolish. First of all, you can't have a viable third party in America because we have our incredibly fucked up electoral system that completely prevents that. Makes it impossible. Yeah. It's just, it's literally impossible.

Ross Perot spent however many millions of dollars of his own money to run for president and got as many as electoral votes as I did. Zero. That's right. So it doesn't matter that he got 19% of the. popular vote or whatever it was. He got zero electoral votes and that's not a great return on your money. And the same thing's going to happen here. It's absolutely impossible. The only thing it does is somehow build the ego of or, you know, fill the ego of people like Andrew Yang.

It's just completely tone deaf to be doing this right now. And for all those reasons and many more, fuck that guy. I know you're. agree with me, Lally. We can just move on to yours. Yeah, no, he's the worst. I do want to hear who your fuck that guy is, though. My fuck that guy is the worst Supreme Court justice. And again, I know I've said before that other people were the worst Supreme Court justice, but I want to take a minute to talk about Clarence Thomas, who actually is the worst Supreme Court justice, though he's not the youngest. Okay, so technically you could say the youngest, like in Amy Comey Barrett. I'm going to go with Justice Thomas here, because he does.

did do his own, we should also reverse gay marriage, but not interracial marriage. That was a pretty impressive bit of whatever that was. So, Justice Thomas was planning to go and teach at George Washington University near his home in Washington or in one of the Washington suburbs. I cannot say which one because I would never want to get accused of doctor. He was supposed to do a sort of, you know, GW. He was going to lecture and he was going to talk about how great he was. All the rights he's planning to take away this session. Well, there was a lot of students who wrote a long bunch of different letters and petitions because, you know why?

They don't want the guy who's using all of these ridiculous arcane reasons to take away their rights coming to their law school. And you know what? Good for them. So I'm sure I can't imagine this won't end up on Fox News as like liberal intolerance to important conservative ideas. But you know what? He gets to take away our rights. He doesn't get to lecture us about them. It's a free country.

And that's how capitalism works. So a hardy fuck you for the worst member of the Supreme Court, Justice Clarence Thomas. Absolutely agree. And also absolutely agree that this will be held up as an example. of horrible cancel culture. Oh, yeah. Jesse Waters, this is one for you. On that note, we'll wrap this episode

of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast. In future episodes, we'll be talking to smart folks from the Daily Beast and beyond from media, culture, politics, and science. We'll help us understand what's happening to our country and the world. We hope you'll subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app

and share the show on social media. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you again on the next episode. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to the DailyBeast.com slash membership slash podcast and sign up today.