The Daily Beast Podcast - Susan Orlean on the Weird World of Show Dogs and New Jersey’s Tiger Queen

Episode Date: July 18, 2021

Did you know that there was a female version of the Tiger King in New Jersey? “Orchid Thief” author Susan Orlean did and wrote about it. She joins Molly Jong-Fast on this bonus episode of The New Abnormal to talk about the weird stories she loves to pursue, from a New Jersey Tiger Queen and an orchid thief to show dogs. Plus, she explains how dogs might actually solve our country’s divisiveness. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to another special bonus episode of the new abnormal. And we thank you so much for being here. Today we are so lucky as we have Susan Orlean, who you might know as the author of The Orchid Thief, and has a new book out called On Animals. And we're going to be talking to her about that today. By the way, if you want an alert when each bonus episode from the new abnormal drops, you can subscribe in your member dashboard. Head to the DailyBeast.com slash membership slash newsletters to sign up for email alerts.

Welcome, Susan, to the new abnormal. Thanks. I'm really excited to be on the show with you. Well, we're excited to have you, and it's fun for us to do books and also things that aren't totally depressing. Oh, well, I'm not totally depressing. I'm uplifting and positive. Right. We, it will be a stark contrast from all of our other interviews ever. Oh, well, good. I'm glad I can provide a little uplifting. uplift and a little brightness in this dark world. You're sort of a beloved cultural figure now.

How do I get that? Go. How do you get to be a beloved? You, no, a beloved cultural figure. It's okay. So I would say, number one, you have to increase your alcohol intake. Yeah, I mean, that's the number one. I think people simply like people who drink a lot.

That, you know, I've just, I've just solved all your problems. Yes. Next question. Yes. So talk to us about animals. Oh, my God. It's a great subject, isn't it? I have always loved animals.

And I think most little kids love animals. I was probably typical. as a little kid, but it persisted. I just wanted to be around animals, and I wanted lots of different kinds of animals. I think a lot of kids want a dog or a cat, but I wanted lots of different kinds of creatures. And as I became a writer, I found that I really loved writing about animals, and I liked writing about the human-animal interaction, which is complicated. In fact, it's really funny. When I look at this book, I realize that many of the stories on animals are about our relationships in the gray area between wild and domestic.

creatures and between animals that live completely apart from us and the animals that literally sleep in bed with us. But there's this whole other world of animals that I find really interesting to kind of consider and to write about, which are the things that sort of exist a little bit in the margins. I mean, these stories range from, I wrote a profile of a show dog, I wrote about animals that are very much, are domestic animals and about wild animals, too. But I wrote a lot about the things that kind of span those two worlds. For instance, I wrote this piece about a woman in New Jersey who had 27 pet tigers. And it was not. Tiger King. No, no, no, no, no, although there are a lot of similarities. No, this was an incident that

took place in New Jersey probably 15 years ago. In the middle of this suburban town in New Jersey, a tiger was seen walking around during the middle of the day. As one does. Indeed. And sadly, they were not able to capture the tiger alive. And so the state police ended. And so the state police ended up killing it. But what really was weird is that they couldn't figure out who it belonged to. In the course of trying to figure out who had belonged to, it was revealed that a woman in this suburb had 27 tigers. Who among us? Who among us doesn't wish to have 27 tigers? And then she very successfully held off the state for years by suing and counter-suing and and then countersuing the countersuits,

because the state basically said to where you have to get rid of these tigers, you don't have permits to have these tigers. She eventually lost them, but she hung tough for quite a long time to keep her tigers. So, you know, writing about people who do that sort of thing, who have such a passion for, an animal like a tiger that that's what their whole life is about. I mean, it's just fascinating.

I mean, we really live with Martians because animals in a way are as weird and as inexplicable as if they were space aliens. And, you know, we kind of muddle our way in our relationships with them and I find it really interesting and challenging to write about. since they don't speak our language. It's fascinating. You pick these subjects that are sometimes a little out of the mainstream, though animals are not out of the mainstream and everybody loves her. I mean, I say this is someone with three dogs, one of whom is diabetic, one of whom is pancreatic, and the third who's a complete lunatic. So I relate very much to this idea of loving your animals. But you have in the past also taken some that are sort of out of the mainstream, like the Orchid Thief. Can you talk a little bit about, I mean, that was one of the, like, that is just an amazing story. Oh, thank you. I have landed on stories that they're not mainstream. They're not, they are one of two varieties. One is the thing that is very, very familiar, but we've never looked at it closely.

And once you look at it closely, you discover that you really don't know a lot about it after all. And then the other is the subculture that you didn't even know existed. And in the case of animals, you know, even though the orchid thief was a wild story that, you know, I stumbled across the story of this oddball who had stolen dozens of rare orchids out of a state preserve in Florida, and he was just an incredible character. That's not a news headline. You know, the theft of orchids, sure, it made the paper, but in the very inside section of the back section of the local news, and where I find a lot of the stories that I'm most interested frankly. I mean, they are newsworthy, but in the margins. And that was true of these stories about animals that many of them are either the thing that is so familiar to us. Like everybody knows

what a show dog is, but I became really interested in spending a lot of time with the show dog because I really wondered what their day-to-day life was like. Yeah. My mother growing up, we had a show dog. Oh, really? What breed? Bichon-Frize. And a little known fact, my mother got really into show dogs because, I mean, it's

too stupid to go into. But anyway, in part of our zealic-like existence, one of the many chapters involved us owning a show dog. and it was extremely unrewarding, but they did send us lots of the medals and the ribbons. Oh, well, that's kind of cool. Yeah. Well, it's, you know, when I was a kid, I became obsessed with the idea of having a show dog. And we got our first dog when I was about 13.

And he was a purebred. And I showed him, you know, I took him in the junior showmanship competitions at a couple of dog shows. and then he bit a judge. And that ended my career as a handler of show dogs. That's great. But, you know, I think that there's always this human impulse or human quest for perfection. Yeah. That show dogs seem to be a really perfectable form, the way a person could.

never be. So there's a lot of projection onto them and, you know, human beings love to compete. But I think that there is something particular about breeding and grooming and trying to create this perfect form and having it admired and living with that sense of accomplishment. and people are quite drawn to it. And a lot of times I think it's really interesting. And I'd like to say this doesn't apply to you or to me. But there are a lot of people who show dogs who are themselves not very attractive. And I think there has to be some piece of that that draws them to it,

that they don't feel that they will ever be admired for being beautiful and being, you know, perfectly muscled and having the perfect body. But they can have a dog that can be perfect. Dogs really are a topic that people are interested in. It's amazing. I mean, I've had sometimes, especially during the pandemic, because so many people I knew got puppies during the pandemic, including me, it's as if people can, well, I think there are a few reasons. First of all, I think talking about your kid, which is sort of the equivalent, comes with all sorts of complications. I mean, if you're bragging about how smart your kid is, you look like a jerk. But if you talk about the fact that you got this dog and it's unbelievable, you were able to train it to sit and lay down. And it's a subject that people find interesting and they don't,

feel the kind of defensiveness and sensitivity about if you were bragging about your kid or, God forbid, about yourself. Yes, it's true. It's just, you know, it's something you can deflect upon. I mean, I can't believe I was just at a Fourth of July party. And we, this is a group of extremely accomplished, very smart, interesting people. And we talked about our dogs for the bulk of the gathering. Do you think that that is because things are so fraught right now that there's something about pets that is sort of, there's no place, what are you going to argue with someone that their dog isn't great? I mean, there's no place for a, there's no place for, there's no place for dissent. Right. Well, I think it's something that feels non-controversial. It feels like this crosses

cultural, political, regional divides in a way that very few things do. You don't dare talk about politics or vaccination or religion or, you know, even the way you raise your kids to go back to that analogy. But there is a way that it feels completely comfortable and bonding to talk about animals with other people and that you wouldn't risk talking about something that could provoke a lot of dissent and discomfort. I mean, as we find ourselves in this world that is increasingly partisan, I would say the Republicans have lost their minds completely, but the idea of there being a sort of safe, a sort of safe space in the world that involves dogs is kind of fascinating.

And animals in general, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, you know, it's funny because animals have the advantage of seeming non-judgmental. They give as much as they get or they give more than they get. There's a way in which we have just benign feelings about them. And it's something that you can kind of talk to anybody about and never worry that you're about to, set off a landmine. I mean, I think of this period of time is so weird in this way where you don't dare ask someone if they're vaccinated or not, because you feel like if they're not,

you don't want to get into a whole thing about why they're not vaccinated. And so something very simple like that, you just can't risk it. I mean, I'm talking about this in particular because we recently bought a new house. So we are meeting a lot of new neighbors. And that's a perfect example of negotiating a safe way to interact with people with whom you would like to have a non-controversial relationship. So what are the subjects that you can, you wouldn't dare talk about politics. You wouldn't dare talk about religion. If they're not wearing a mask, and this was before mask wearing was somewhat optional, they're not wearing a mask. I mean, we just went through this. We met our next door neighbors and they weren't wearing masks at a time when people were still wearing masks. And I thought,

well, either they got vaccinated really early or they're anti-maskers. I don't want to talk about it with them. They're my next door neighbor. I just want a peaceful relationship with them. We talked about the dogs. Oh, adulthood is terrible. It is pretty terrible. Yeah, I mean, I would say, like, that's unfair.

There are lots of great things about being an adult. But having to deal with neighbors who won't get vaccinated is not having to have those kind of nuanced conversations is hard. But I think it is a really important point, and I definitely see that. So do you feel like we will eventually go back to a less partisan time? I'm sorry to say that I don't think so. I feel like this is a bit of a genie that got let out of a bottle, and that's not going to go back in. And I hate thinking that, and I hate feeling that. But I don't see. see, I just feel that something got unleashed that would be very hard to leash back up. And that is a certain underlying suspicion of, and, well, let me say this differently. I think that what got

unleashed was this American tendency to value a certain kind of pig-headed freedom over community. And not dying. Exactly. And I feel like our sense as a nation of communal good has been pretty shattered. The idea that we're all responsible for each other, I think is unfortunately, It feels like that's really dissolved. And I just can't picture what it would take to instill in people, again, a sense of shared purpose and shared responsibility. I mean, if the pandemic didn't do it, you know, we were talking about a crisis that affected all of us. And in an ideal world, that would bring people together where we'd think, oh, my God, we're all really vulnerable. And we have to all do what it takes to keep each other safe. And this is the, I mean, I compare it a lot to what happened after 9-11.

And I was living in New York and people were so careful with each other. And there was such a sense of unity. and a feeling of the fragility of life and we have to be good to each other. That dissolved eventually, but there really was a powerful sense of that. And you would think the pandemic would be even more powerful that way. Because unlike 9-11, the pandemic affected everybody. And I found it utterly disillusioning

to have it become so politicized and so divisive when it feels to me like, how can this be divisive? Thank you so, so much for being here. Oh, it's my pleasure. My God, this was a blast. I could have talked forever. Thank you. On that note, we'll wrap this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast. In future episodes, we'll be talking to smart folks from The Daily Beast and beyond from media, culture, politics and science. We'll help us understand what's happening to our country and the world. We hope you'll subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app and share the show on social media. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you again on the next episode.

Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast podcast. At the Dailybeast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a daily Bees subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to the dailybeast.com slash membership slash podcast and sign up today.