The Daily Beast Podcast - Tech Bros Love Trump Because They Have No Other Friends

Episode Date: August 2, 2024

This week on The New Abnormal, Ed Zitron, CEO of EZPR and the host of tech podcast, “Better Offline,” explains why all these Northern California tech bros are ride or die for Donald Trump. Then, Dr. Regina Davis Moss, the president & CEO of In Our Own Voice: National Black Women’s Reproductive Justice Agenda and the In Our Own Voice Action Fund, talks about the devastating effect on Black women of right-wing attempts to overthrow women’s bodily. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Kedin, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. Welcome back to the new abnormal. We're still on vacation, but that doesn't mean we didn't record you a most excellent episode in advance.

CEO of EasyPR and the host of Tech Podcast Better Offline, Ed Zetron, is here to explain why all these Northern California tech pros are going so ride or dive for Donald Trump and the narrative that he promises. And then Dr. Regina Davis-Moss, president and CEO of In Our Own Voice, National Black Women's Reproductive Justice Agenda joins us. Talk about how the right-wing's attempts to overthrow women's bodily autonomy adversely affects black women. But first, let's have some fun. So looking back, what's one political stance you've had in the past that you've changed your mind about? Just one? Sure. Overall, you know, I'm open about the fact that I used to be a pretty,

heavy libertarian. And the thing is, I was always, like if you're going to use the liberal conservative dichotomy, I was always liberal on social issues and on social justice issues and stuff like that, which not every libertarian is. But I was obviously, as a libertarian, I was fairly conservative slash free market on economics. And I think it's obvious to anyone who has listened to me on this podcast that I've done a 180 from that. And I always sort of point to, and this goes back a long way, But when the Affordable Care Act was first, you know, working its way up. And I was working at Fox News at the time. And, like, everyone was opposed to it.

And I remember sitting there. And I remember saying this to a guest after a show as we were walking out and just saying, I just want everyone to have health care, you know? I think that really started my slide into like, yeah, this free market stuff. Maybe in a utopia somehow might work. But it really doesn't in the free world. And we got to help people and make the necessities and the everyday life stuff easier for people. so that they are, you know, just free to be their full selves and their most competent selves

and their most expressive selves and whatever. And now I'm sounding sappy. But that for me was my biggest move. Hmm. Interesting, Andy. So for me, it was don't ask, don't tell. When the Clinton administration issued the policy around Don't Ask Don't Tell was 1993. And I was a kid.

But I thought at that time that it was progressive because I thought that it meant that queer people, LGBTQ plus people, were going to be able to serve and people would leave them alone. That's what I thought. I thought that they were just going to be able to serve as patriots and they were going to be left alone. It wouldn't be obviously until like years later when I was an adult and then working in the LGBTQ plus movement realize how devastating Don't Ask, Don't Tell was as a policy. And it wasn't until recently with President Biden overturned the, dishonorable discharges for those LGBTQ plus people, veterans, who were dishonorably discharged, lost their benefits, like spousal support, all of these things, and has now overturned that.

At the time when I was a kid, when this came out, I thought it was a good thing. And so it just goes to show you, like, how you can grow and shift. And, you know, I even think that at that time that the Clinton's thought that it was a positive thing, like, okay, we won't ask, then you don't tell us. And then everything will be copacetic to just live in this place of denial. But it turned out to be a lot more devastating of a policy than I think that it was intended to be. The only thing I would say is, to be fair to Bill Clinton and to you, I think it was a progressive policy at the time. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was sort of a necessary first step to get us where we are today, which is probably still not perfect and can be improved upon moving forward. But quickly, I was in the army when this happened. And I remember sitting in the mess hall or whatever and people talking about it. And there were always – and some people were surprisingly, you know, fine with it. And then they were the ones who were always like, I don't want some gay guy looking at me in the shower. And it was always like, first of all, don't flatter yourself. I just never understand straight men. You're back hairy, doing it for me, Chief.

Yeah. And also, we all knew, and this was before Don't Ask, Don't Tell, we all knew people who were gay in our unit. Yeah. And honestly, I can say, and this was early 90s, this would be a better question for them. I did not see any overt discrimination against him. Everyone sort of had a Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy where it was like, yeah, whatever, we're not going to bring it up. So, yeah, no, I totally get what you're saying, Danielle. and in retrospect, it's like, yeah, that wasn't all that great either.

But it was a step forward. I think you can forgive young Danielle for what you thought back then. Thank you. Okay. If you could switch lives with any politician for a day past or present, who would it be? And what would you hope to learn? So I have a question about this. Well, first of all, I would actually hope that they would learn from being me, Jesse.

Oh, a teachable moment. They should know what it's like being saintly all the time. And that, yes, it can be. be hard, it can be difficult, but it's also very necessary and rewarding. But I guess my question is, how does this work? Do we just switch external lives or like, do I become Marjorie Taylor Green for a day? We're going Freaky Friday and you're like up in there and you're like, you're viewing the world from what they get to see each day. You're trying to play along with it. Oh, it's John Malkovich. There we go. There we go. Being John Malkovich. So I could like just go out there as like Donald Trump

and just say the most vile and filthy things that enough of supporters would be a gas stand. You're a passenger in this situation. Like, think of this, yeah. Okay. Then, yeah, I don't know. I don't want any of them. I'm like trying to think about somebody that I genuinely like.

And so I'd want to like ride around with. You know, okay, I'm going to go. I'm going to go with Shirley Chisholm. Yeah, I'm going to go with Shirley Chisholm. First black woman to run for president in the United States. States unbossed and unbothered, just overall like badass black woman. I would like to see the world through her eyes and her time. I'm going President Z. I want to see what he's got going on. Who? President G. Oh, President G. Yes. What fictional movie TV or literary universe would you

choose to live in? I would say an America where everyone is truly free and equal. Jesus Christ. I'm going to say something and I know it's going to be unpopular or cliche. Bridgeton. I want to live in Bridgeton. The fashion, the fucking balls, people don't do shit in the summer. All they do is go to their country houses. Integration and reconstruction happened. So like things are much nicer than they were in reality during that time frame. And yeah, I just want to dance, go to balls, read gossip and, you know, relax in the summer. That's what I'd like to do. So Bridgeton. So interesting, you're saying Bridgeton and I would say Wakanda. Oh, I love this for you. Well, look, my thought is Wakanda seems

cool as hell. Obviously might not be for me in the sense that, you know, I don't know that I would be welcome. You're definitely not allowed in. But I am one of the good ones. And I feel like maybe that would get me in. Then I thought Narnia sounds pretty good, but again, much like Antarctica, no Wi-Fi. And then I thought I would enjoy the Citadel in the Mass Effect universe for our video game fans out there. So, yeah. Okay. Would you rather have to live at Mar-a-Lago or on a spaceship with Elon Musk? I'd rather be unalive.

Those are my two fucking choices. If I'm on the spaceship, one, do I have a gun? Uh-uh. Two, how big is the spaceship? Like, could I avoid him the whole time? And if the answer to both those questions is no, then Mar-Lac. I feel like Mara Lago is an endless trove of entertainment in the worst way that you kind of never get bored with. You hit the omelet bar, you see a few leather wolves, you move on with your day after some laughs.

Well, that's the thing. And just being on a ship with just you and Elon Musk, like, no way. No way. I mean, yeah. I often think of when his brother band talking about the singularity in hot tubs. Yeah, that's a no for me, dog. Yeah. If you could be an ambassador to any country, which one would you choose?

I'm going Spain because I've been obsessed with the Basque country lately. Oh, that's cool. That's a good one. I would again say Wakanda. But if it has to be a real place, I would say the Vatican. That was my second choice. See some real shit there. Also, good food, amazing museum stuff.

And I want to get into the secret archives. I'm going to say South Africa. I'm a piano, Afro beats, a vibe. The red wine sitch delicious. Temperature on point. And yeah, that's what I'm going to say. Great music scene right now. Yeah, music scene is fire.

Art scene is fire. Food and drink, fire. So I'm going with that. Could you negotiate for them to take Elon back? But then I wouldn't want to be an ambassador. So then what are we doing? How about on your way out? Oh, God.

Like as your last act. Let's send him to Mars. Is that where your spaceship is headed? Let's send him there. I don't know. What artists from any time pastor president would you choose to perform at your presidential inauguration? Bob Marley. Oh, that's good.

Okay, I have a bunch of answers. First of all, Godspeed you, Black Emperor would be hilarious. Amazing. If I have to go classic, I would go Ray Charles, Dr. John, and Mahalia Jackson. I would go Radiohead if I could have a non-American band. I would take Charlie XEX so Jesse would show up. I very easily could just do an entire post-rock extravaganza and have like Sigurose and Maguire and we lost the sea.

And again, Godspeed you, Black Emperor. Either that or I would just have John Cage do 433 and call it a night. I got to go to the clash because that's my favorite group I'll never get to see. Mark Andreessen, Ben Horowitz, David Sacks, Bill Ackman, Joe, Lonsdale, Elon Musk. These are just a few of the mega-rich tech titans who are overtly supporting Donald Trump in 2024. Here to talk about why the tech bros are nuttzoes for Trump is Ed Zittron, the CEO of EZPR, writer of the tremendous tech newsletter, where's your Ed at and the occasional business insider column, and host of the IHeart Radio Tech podcast, Better Offline. Ed, thanks so much for joining me.

Thanks for having me. So, Ed, the easy answer as to why all these rich Northern California dudes are supporting Donald Trump, is that they think, probably correctly, that they will be lower taxed and less regulated than they would be with a Democratic president. Is it just that simple? And please keep in mind that if you say yes, that's pretty much it for the interview. Wait. So I think the thing that people misunderstand, it's kind of revisionist history to think that this just happened.

I moved to the Bay in 2014. I was there for several years. There were already shreds of this kind of right-wing thinking there. But it became so much more avert during COVID. People like Peter Fam, who's an investor, who went really deep down the kind of anti-mask, anti-vax to an extent thinking. And Mark Andresen, in 2022, I believe, in an interview said, yes, I've been reading multiple books on Hitler. Like, this stuff has been happening for a while.

Yeah. David Sachs, during 2020 and 2021, David Sachs really. And by the way, David Sachs is famous for selling a Twitter for work. thing called Yammer to Microsoft, I think it was, for like a billion dollars. Truly depressing, failing up type character. Yeah. But this kind of human code hybrid guy, he has been doing this right wing stuff for a while during COVID, anti-lockdown, anti-mask.

And then eventually anti-anything center left or just really center, just really just anti-labor. People aren't working anymore. And then the All In Podcasts, which is him, Shamath, and Jason Calacanis, one of the dampest man in Silicon Valley. They have been doing this horrible talk show thing forever. And it's simmered from just talking about anti-labour stuff to complaining about homeless people, to having views on Ukraine, to having views on anything deemed left of the right, I guess. This is a gradual boil. And it's not just about money. it's about the fact that all of these guys have too much of it and are bored and don't believe in anything

and don't care about anything and they don't have any friends and they all talk to the same people and they all say the same things. So them coming out in support of the right, it isn't new at all, but people see it that way because now they're just being slightly louder about it. You would know this better than I would, but it does feel like, and I don't mean five years ago, but I mean more like 10, 20 years ago. It feels like the prevailing Silicon Valley, ethos. It was libertarian, yeah, but it was much more of like a live and let live style libertarianism. We're sure they didn't want to be taxed and regulated, but they really couldn't have given a shit about the idiotic culture war stuff that they're all now completely obsessed with. I have to push back a little bit on that one, man.

Because in I think 2015, 2016, James DeMoree, DeMore, who was this little creep at Google, he sent around this letter where he was talking about how like 2017 maybe, it was like sexist. and you're like, oh, what's he talking about? He's talking about woman. He's talking about woman and black people and they're getting too much of an advantage. And that was really when this kicked off seriously. It was when you had this guy at Google who queer. He was the one who had the funniest name on Twitter. It was fired for truth, which is one of my favorite, like, huffy right wing things ever, like, fired for truth. And that was really when you first heard it. But the libertarianism thing always been there. the right wing stuff kind of always has too because San Francisco as a city is quite peculiar

and that it makes so much money but there's such abject poverty and naturally these people see homeless people and they think instead of wow these people have really been rejected by say Ronald Reagan's mental institution policies and really society has failed these people they're like why don't they just get a job I've heard a lot of people say that and I always say something quite simple which is do you think they like pissing their pants or do you think they're up pissing in a toilet. Do you think they fucking enjoy this? They get very angry and they don't like it. They don't like it one bit. But the thing is, they're very much in the, a lot of people in Silicon Valley are in the Live and Let Live camp, but there has always been this side of like, this place could use a little

authoritarianism. This could use a little bit, we need to clean up these streets, which would probably cost more in police power than it would cost to give each of these people a home. Well, these people, they just need to pull themselves up on their bootstraps. And I think there is where the problem has begun. Because they see poverty, homelessness, unfairness in the world, and they see their own narratives. And it's much easier to look on the poor and the suffering and the really marginalized and think, well, their failures, if their failures are systemic, does that mean the system benefits me? Exactly. Is this an unfair system that rewards people that can afford to go to, like, Ivy League schools and who have.

have money from friends. Is it, did I really earn anything? Am I actually important to the world or am I just lucky? Did I just get a good roll of the dice? No. What it is is I worked very hard and that's how I do software and I do software and they are poor because they didn't do software. It's a genuinely disgusting way of looking at the world. But that's kind of what the values become. It's disgraceful. It's not, to be clear, it's not everyone. Sure. But there are these loud voices that are just disgusting, just truly disgusting. All these guys now who talk about the, whether it's Elon Musk talking about the woke mind virus or, you know, Bill Ackman going off about DEI and whatever garbage he's on

this week. And it feels like all these guys are susceptible to this crap for the same reason you just cited. Because if they had to acknowledge things like white privilege, that would eat into their view that they all have of themselves, that they're all John Galt. Yeah. And it's funny because I don't know why. they don't just go, damn, I'm so lucky. I get to work on a computer all day. I have a big house.

Yeah. I don't have natural predators. Right. A couple leopards in San Hill Row, I think, could really clean up the place. But it's something where you would think they would have a bit more gratitude, but I don't think the culture encourages that. There's always kind of been like this. I was talking to someone the other day who knew Mark Andreessen back when he was just coming out of University of Illinois. And apparently, he used to be like a sweet guy who just built software, net-skirts. and all that shit. He used to be like that. But as money corrupts,

and as they become distant from real people, I think they just don't see the world at all. Like an ultra-powerful version of how Twitter kind of warps how you see the world. If you're only surrounded by other damp freaks that believe that poverty is a symptom of a lack of a work ethic, then yeah, you're going to lean right

because you've found these narratives in your head that help support your friends, flimsy world view that you're the hardest worker. And the irony is, yeah, they probably did work hard. It's a different kind of hard work to someone working in a restaurant, someone who's a general contractor, but it is a kind of hard work. Is it harder? No, but it's still a hard work. You can see that and be grateful for it and say, shit, I got a good roll of the dice. I'm so lucky, but they don't want to. They don't want to because they're brittle and sad inside there. In some ways, huge losers, despite their massive winnings.

Also, if you listen to everything that they said, like Mark Andresen, Bill Ackman, all these guys, you would think that tech billionaires that they are like the most put upon people in America, if not like the history of the world. Yeah, and it's funny because Mark Andresen has, I think, a $100 million Malibu home, like with a compound. My man is the kingpin.

And he's like, I am the most punished man ever because someone got on a clubhouse and was mean about me. Or, or, or, are so mean to me. Bill Ackman's like, oh, oh, you're attacking my wife for stealing. Well, I will, this world is so, I am so naturally punished, which is why my 72 lawyers will descend upon you, like vultures. They desperately want to make this world where they're both the victim and the perpetrator. And it's crazy, because all it really shows is that they enjoy nothing. They're just miserable. They sit on line being pissy. And of course, I'm sure you've read,

the techno-optimist manifesto came out last year from Mark Andreessen. That really tells you everything because one of the things in there, one of the enemies, and it names the enemy. And to be clear, all these right-wing guys that say, yeah, everything's 1984. Whenever I don't like it, it's 984, that guy is doing 19-84, I'm being 9-84ed. And, but what's great is you read this thing? And it's like, yeah, here's a list of my enemies. Nothing like fascism, nothing like propaganda, of course.

Right. But the crazy thing about this Optimist manifesto was it was deeply nihilistic. basically just turn off all the limiters. Stop getting in my way. Let me make more money. I already have billions, but I need more billions. More billions for that. And then in it, he names the enemies, and one of them is a risk management. That is one of the things he names as an enemy in this piece. And I think that just tells you everything. They're just being adult babies. They just see, I don't like it is bad. If I like it, it's good. If it helps me, it's good. If it helps someone else I don't like, it's bad, but if it helps someone I like, it's good. And that is the paper

thin ideologies. That's why they're fascinated with dictators. It's why they want to kiss up to Trump, because they don't actually understand what power is. They don't understand beyond money. It's why they're so ineffectual at times with real life, with real people. They're just completely disconnected. You know, when you wrote about the techno-optimist manifesto, which yes, and I think it's fair to say that it is maybe second only to the Bible in terms of the thing I've read the most. But you wrote that the bitter truth here is, is that Andresen's success, both original and ongoing, couldn't have happened without the very visible hand of the government. Same with Elon Musk. I mean, if he didn't have government contracts, I don't know that

SpaceX would still be around and all that stuff. But none of them want to admit it's the old socialism for me, but not for thee. And that's the thing. They're so dependent on government funding. They're so dependent on government inventions. They're so ungrateful for actual R&D that builds real things. They don't want to admit that they themselves are a product of welfare, and indeed, in the case of Andresen and some venture capitalists, are welfare in and of themselves. Last year, I think maybe the year before, Character.A.I. raised $150 million for a chatbot company that lets you talk to Sotoro Gojo from Jiu-Jitsu Kizen and historic figures. This company does not make nearly enough.

It's horribly unprofitable from what I hear. Great example of how venture is just welfare. It's welfare for ideas rather than people. And all of these people, they're very much products of governments that are manufactured to allow rich people to access more equity. They are, in and of themselves, a recipient of societal welfare. they just found one that makes them look strong versus weak. Yet they look upon anyone who looks to the government for help

as some kind of outlier, lazy bastard, when they themselves are so very lazy, morally lazy, intellectually lazy too. Because if they were actually meaningfully thinking about these things, they would think power, what is power? Power really is influence. Power is one's ability to change hearts and minds. And they can't do it because that would require

real work. How about Mark Andreessen rips off $50 million a year puts it into homeless welfare? I don't know. He wouldn't do it because he's a fucking asshole. But he does that. Everyone would suddenly have, including myself, would have a slightly different view of Mark Andreessen. Yeah. But because none of these people understand

any of this shit, they're just rolling around in their own filth, complaining about how unfair everything is as the system benefits them in almost every way. And then another thing that they did, that Andreessen did in that piece, was he named one of the patron saints of techno-optimism. And of course, having read it a few hundred times

yourself, you'll know that that's Nick Land, who is a horrifying, freak, terrifying monster who, and I'm quoting someone I quoted from Mother Jones, Ali Brelant, who said that Nick Land was accelerating the world towards eventual destruction at a future he welcomed, and he also has another theory, and it's called hyper-racism. This is one of the patron-saints of techno-optimism. I mean, This came out in fucking October, November last year, and everyone's like, Mark Andresen's slightly racist. What? This is the problem I have for Silicon Valley writ large.

It's like, you can't consistently call these people to account unless you have any sense of history and reading what they actually fucking say. He's been like this for a while. Like, it's time to like look at these people and look at them and say, look, this is who they've kind of always been. and then work out how they got here. I also want to add the... Mark Andreessen, when he talked about reading Hitler books, he did it so in a book in a blog called

What I've Been Up to Lately. And he says he's been reading two comprehensive biographies of Adolf Hitler. This is what I mean. It's like this was two years ago. Someone should have said, Hey, Mark, why are you reading so many comprehensive books on Hitler? And by the way, the amount of books I think you should read on Hitler

outside of being like a historian or a political analyst is zero. I think we got it. I think we know that Hitler is not an example to be followed and that if someone is like, I'm really getting into Hitler recently, maybe that's a fucking red flag. Yeah, I mean, look, Nick Land, if you know that name,

is an instant red flag for the whole, you know, the dark enlightenment thing and Curtis Yarven comes into play there with the cathedral. and it's just absolutely wild how credulous all these guys are. And I think, you know, Musk is sort of the king of that with his, we see it on Twitter every day when he retweets things that are obviously ridiculously false and just writes or, you know, and just says, interesting or whatever. But all these guys have, they have such a credulity when it comes to these wacky theories and everything. And then they pat themselves on the back for how smart they are for getting it. And what they're actually looking for is like, okay, so why did people like Hitler?

Maybe they were like me now. When they should be like, well, why am I so curious about why people liked Hitler? Should I not be worried that the comparison is possible? But also, they don't really read this shit. They skim read it. Not only these people actually give a shit. No one, I think Bach-Andreason is reading Hitler so that he can be like, oh, this man has power.

Power is interesting, interesting, hmm. so he can scratch his chin and fucking egghead bitch. But he doesn't really, I don't think he's sitting there being like, oh, the dark enlightenment's coming, I'm so excited. People like Nick Land are using people like Andresen. They're using people like Elon Musk. They know they're useful idiots, kind of like the all-in guys, David Sachs, especially.

These guys have these half-assed views because they just have this genuine outrage towards anything that would impede their chance to make a number go up. Elon Musk is adult. I think we can agree that he's kind of an idiot at this point, smart in some sigmas of ways, but not in all of them and definitely not in running companies. So he's just grasping at straws to find someone else who once said, everyone's been very unfair to me and I should be more powerful. Sadly, the people who have that kind of thinking almost always end up

at Hitler. If you sit there and go, well, I have no personal responsibility for anything. I don't owe anyone anything and everyone owes me something while I'm also unfathomably rich and powerful, why is everyone so mean to me the most punished person who has everything? The only people who think like this are dictators. Yeah. This is the reason Elon Musk could literally be one of the most popular people alive. He used to be like 13 years ago. Yeah, sure. By posting his lunch and a rocket every so often and having no political opinions. But now we see exactly what kind of loser he is. And They all share the same thing. They're these brittle, fragile, little egos

who should really just be doing literally anything because they can goddamn afford to. Yeah, that's another whole subject in terms of you've got all this money. I don't know, do you really need to be posting every 10 minutes? But they do. You can go on YouTube right now and type in Elliot Smith live concert. There's at least three options.

No, you're right. And I think the ultimate theory in this is my psychological evaluation of a lot of these guys is, They got so rich, so powerful, so successful. All of these wonderful things, they got married, they had a big house, they got all these things. And then they realized I don't enjoy a single goddamn thing. Not once.

It's not even about therapy, which they could use. God, if they hear that, they're going to be so mad. I think that they just don't enjoy anything. These aren't the actions of someone with levity or whimsy. These aren't people who look at the world and go, ooh, that's fun. They don't see things and go, oh, that's delightful. They don't take any joy in like a silly video or a good. song or a play or anything. Everything has to be building towards some kind of big fucking ideology,

which is really hard when you don't believe in anything. Yeah, it really is incredible. Ed, it's always a pleasure talking to you. People go sign up for Ed's newsletter at where's your ed. dot at. Check out his podcast at betteroffline.com. Ed, thanks again. My pleasure. Thank you. Folks, I am very happy to welcome to the new abnormal. Dr. Regina Davis Moss, who is the president and CEO of In Our Own Voice, National Black Women's Reproductive Justice Agenda and in our own voice Action Fund. Dr. Moss, I will tell you that I have been doing a lot of interviews over the last year that are about the absolute horrific situation that women and people with uteruses in this country

find themselves with a patchwork of protections ever since the overturning of Roe v. Wade. But I think that what doesn't get nearly enough attention is the tragic situation that black women were already in prior to the overturning of Roe v. Wade and how now this patchwork of protections that people have with regard to abortion are, even more adversely affecting black women and women of color. So can you speak to kind of where we find ourselves in this moment? Absolutely. And first of all, Danielle, thank you for having me.

And I love the way you really set that up because we are in such a critical year for black women. As you noted, we have been seeing attempts to dismantle our fundamental human and civil rights for years to come. And at this point, it is going to have an impact on our livelihood. our safety and our joy for decades to come. Let me just tell you what that looks like, right? I mean, we've already seen what they're doing with our voting, right? They're trying to put bands on what we read and learn. We've already experienced the inequitable access to health care.

We're in the midst of economic insecurity. There's blatant attacks on LGBTQIA folks. And now, two years after Dobb, there's more than half of black women of childbearing age, so that's 15 to 49, living in states with there's little or no abortion access. So it's no surprise that we're seeing these raises in infant mortality, right? People don't really understand is that many of these deaths are preventable. I have to keep reiterating that because it's so asternine that, you know, more than three quarters of these are preventable.

And on top of that, there were studies that said, okay, if all the state banned abortion, what would that look like for black women? If every state advanced abortion, we're going to see a staggering almost 40% increase in black internal death. 40%. Yes. When we think about those numbers, because oftentimes I think, too, that in the media we get really preoccupied with statistics and don't understand the people behind those numbers. Can you provide to us a picture of what it is like right now, for instance, to let's say be a black woman that is pregnant in the state of Florida, which has most recently increased their ban to a six-week ban on abortion, which is when, as many people who listen to this show know,

most people don't know that they are pregnant yet. And so given the state of hostility that now is Florida, what is it like to be a pregnant black woman? Yeah, I mean, first of all, we should not keep looking at these as rates and risks. These are real people. These are our grandmothers. These There's our aunts. These are our cousins. These are the people that when we go to the cookout, you know, we're begging them for the recipes. But in places like Florida, I mean, I'm talking to people every day that are saying, you know,

there was a time when I was pregnant or I found out I was pregnant. That would be a time of joy. But now it is impacting black women in very personal life-altering and threatening ways. We poll black women every year. And two-thirds of black women have said that they are now thinking about dying if they get pregnant, potentially moving out of state, but who's, you know, that's a luxury. Who can move out of state? I mean, if it was that easy, we'd all be doing, right? Not having kids at all or having any more kids, the risk of being arrested for something related to pregnancy, and just overall

feeling less safe. I mean, the six weeks, half the time, people don't even know they're pregnant at six weeks, and you can't even get into a doctor. They will tell you, don't even bother to make your prenatal care appointment until you pass that time, because a lot of times they don't make you past that time. So it's a ridiculous precedent to even say, oh, okay, well, you know, people have time at six weeks if they wouldn't make a choice because it really isn't a choice with all of those things. When people make those comments like, oh, just leave a state or, oh, just go here and there, like they're not thinking about the economic burden that is already on these people. And, you know, I spoke most recently with an activist down in Florida that has put an amendment that folks will be

voting on a ballot initiative to enshrine abortion protections in the state of Florida and saying that the closest place that you can go to is North Carolina or Virginia. And you're talking, you're talking about hundreds of miles, you're talking about hundreds of dollars, time off of work, all of these things that women don't have. And so, you know, when we're thinking about this current election, Dr. Moss, and we're thinking about how, there are so many, so many issues are on our ballot. But you're talking about 40% rise in maternal deaths if abortion is banned nationwide. And this is the platform that Republicans are running on, that Donald Trump is running on right now, to ban abortion, to ban IVF, to ban contraception.

What do we have to do in order to raise this alarm? Like what needs to be said? What stories need to be shared so that people understand the gravity of this moment? moment. Yeah, I think, you know, there's a number of things. You pointed out that if people have to travel to these states, like what that means economically, I mean, we have to think about, you know, the time that it takes to even raise the money to put those additional costs, and even the emotional term, you know, having the lead. Maybe you've never even traveled out of state, trying to navigate in a new place, you know, being concerned about whether or not I have some complication and I want to

stay close because don't forget, if I come home and I go to an emergency room and, you know, They suspect I might have had an abortion that goes back to that risk of being arrested. So there's also this sort of emotional toll on there. I mean, I want to make sure I talk about, you know, the Trump administration and, you know, this sort of softer stance they're taking on abortion that we've just heard coming out of that. Do not let that gaslight you, okay? We know what they're trying to do. It appears to be a soft chance.

But it really is just a change in language to confuse voters. You know, the goal of anti-abortion, anti-D, anti-voting rights, anti-progressed extremists have not changed. And it really is ultimately just going to try to get us towards eventually pursuing recognition of fetal personhood, right? And I like to say this, right? If you're even talking about the fourth thing, commitment, just go read for yourself. Read the first sentence. It says, person's born.

The Constitution does not mention unborn human beings. Let's be clear. Become educated. Stay vigilant and understand what is going on. Do not be fooled. by these things. In terms of policies, right? So I never like to assume that people know what reproductive justice is. Yeah. So reproductive justice is the right to decide if, when, and how to expand your families, the right to raise those families and safe and sustainable environments

and the right to sexual expression, right? So when we're advancing reproductive justice framework, we're talking about any piece of legislation that moves us towards economic security and wealth, expands health care, invest in our neighborhood in schools, addresses criminal justice, reduces gun violence, all, you know, on and on and on, right? Because that is what we ultimately need to get to if we want to have an impact on people's reproductive decision you making, right? But one of those 12 mothers, black women, when they found it reproductive justice, and they were saying, okay, let's stop focusing on the pregnancy, right?

Because there's all these other questions that I need to answer before I decide if this unplanned pregnancy becomes a child? Can I keep my job? Can I stay in school? God forbid my partner may not have wanted me to become pregnant. Does this put me an increased risk? You know, am I going to be able to stay alive because I have a chronic disease, right? And I've been told I probably shouldn't get pregnant. Like there's so many other issues that we need to be able to have the social, political, and economic supports around me so that I can make that informed decision. If I have good answers to those questions, then that unplanned pregnancy becomes a child. But if I don't, I should have the right to make those decisions in the best interest of myself.

You have often cast reproductive justice as a civil rights issue. And I'm wondering, you know, as a doctor who obviously is focused on health and public health, do you think that we've been framing the conversation around reproductive justice around repo rights in the right way? Is it something that we should be talking about explicitly as a civil right? Have we missed the narrative on this? I would say we should be talking about it is a human rights issue, right? So in the United States, we fought by civil rights.

But when you look globally, they're fighting for human rights, which says just by virtue of being born, you are entitled to these things, right? Because when we adopt the human rights framework, we no longer have people being harmed. We can no longer have people that are being devalued. We have no longer, we no longer have people that are getting less because others have assumed that they shouldn't receive as much as I have because we believe, like I said, by virtue of being born, you're entitled to these things. And that's actually what human right, with reproductive justice is advancing is a human rights goal, a human rights framework. And we've seen it work. What does it mean for women to that not only has there been an attachment? attack on access to abortion. But now the next thing that is on the agenda is contraception,

is birth control, eliminating at all the ability to decide how when and if you become a parent. What will it look like if we have a society? What will schooling look like? What will the workforce look like if there is a ban on contraception? And do you think that again, people are believing that this is hyperbolic, and so they're not thinking that it is something that can happen if we don't pay attention. People absolutely should not be thinking that this is hyperbolic. I mean, I talked to some leaders. I just came from the NWACP, and we were all just shaking our heads and saying, this is unimaginable, right? But what does that look like for Black women?

You might as well just think about flavor because that's what it is. It is forced breeding. It is forced breeding. And we lost a lot of black women during that time. We're going to lose more now. I mean, if we're not going to address the maternal mortality rate, which I already said was 75% preventable. That leads me to believe we're expendable. We're not factored into this equation.

And so there's a larger goal that I want people to be thinking about and does it really include black women. I mean, the picture just seems so stark. And you mentioned the NACP convention. and I would love to get your insider, you know, what were some of the biggest takeaways that you had while you were there and what is on the agenda for black people in this country at a time when I don't know if we've seen these kinds of attacks really, really seen and felt these kinds of attacks on our civil liberties

since the 1960s in this country. So what were the feelings, the sentiments, and kind of the conversations that were taking? taking place while you were there? I mean, I would say for black women, what we were really leaning into is that black women are the largest voting bloc in the American electorate, right? We are some of the most decisive voters. And we're going to play a decisive role in this election here, as we always do.

And so what we were saying is that it's going to be important for lawmakers and those running to hold these positions of power to clearly understand how we feel to really understand what our policy issues are and to earn our. vote to hold them accountable. We've pulled a number of things. And so we have, we know what our issues are. We know that economy, free and fair elections, racial justice, our top issues for us. You know, we're the closest to the pain in terms of the cost of living is right now. And so we want to see ourselves centered. We are focused on saying, you know, narrative around, you know, we're not going to vote. Our folks negate that in a sense of, you know, yes, we want to hear our concerns,

but nearly eight and 10 of the black women and men in our poll responded that they feel and know the black community has the power to change the outcome of elections. So what that says to me is that talk to me, tell me you love me. Tell me what I need to hear so that I'll come out and vote. How do you think that right now people are understanding this block of the Democratic Party? There are obviously rumblings that are happening across social media, across the Democratic Party right now and there seems to be this just ignorance around what black women, this incredible, foundational voting block wants and needs in this moment. How do you think people are addressing that?

I think that there's a lot of noise and we have got to cut through the noise and focus on the issues. We have to focus on the issues, not just in this election, but every election and all down the ballot. I can tell you what hasn't changed, right? We still live in a racist society. Our freedoms are still under attack. We are still going to face barriers to generational wealth. So we have got to be focusing on those people, those candidates who represent and champion

the need of our community. I really appreciate you taking the time for the new abnormal, all the work that you have done to raise up the issue of reproductive justice and, you know, and the danger. Like, we are in extraordinary danger. And I think that the statistics that you've offered today really do allow people to have eyes wide open. Please tell people how they can get more information, get involved, and stay connected with your work.

Absolutely. You can follow us across all social at Black Women R.J. We are also very much mobilizing and educating voters through our I'm a reproductive justice voter campaign. You can commit to being an RJ voter or learn to vote via RJ issues at blackwomen.vote or I'm an RJ voter.org. And then, as I said, we're holding elected officials accountable. We're mobilizing voters. We're out here. We're specifically reaching young people at HBCUs. and we're educating because we know what's at stake,

and we are unapologetically making sure that black women girls and gender experts of people can survive and thrive. Dr. Regina Davis-Moss, thank you so much. Really appreciate you. Thank you. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of The New Abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend and keep the conversation going.

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