The Daily Beast Podcast - The $364 Million Judgment in Trump’s NYC Fraud Case Did Not Go Far Enough

Episode Date: February 20, 2024

This week on The New Abnormal, co-hosts Andy Levy and Danielle Moodie discuss why the $364 million fine in the fraud suit against Donald Trump is not enough. Then, political scientist Dr. Christina Greer joins the show to discuss the differences between Democratic and Republican messaging—and what President Biden needs to do to not fall behind. We then talk to The Daily Beast political reporter, Riley Rogerson, about the problems with GOPs campaign talking points. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Kedden, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. What an excellent show we have today.

Dr. Christita Greer, a political scientist and associate professor at Fordham University, and the host of one of my personal favorite podcasts, F.AQNYC, is here to talk about messaging, specifically the differences between Democratic and Republican methods, and what President Biden needs to do did not fall behind. Then we'll talk to the Daily Beast political reporter Riley Rogerson, all about the breakdown of the, of her recent piece how Trump is killing off the Reagan Republican in Congress. But first, let's have some fun. So in the latest of hits against Donald Trump, Judge Nguyen gave what I think would be maybe considered a business death blow to Donald Trump and the Trump organization with the $355 million ruling against him in the fraud trial. Now, this is a $1,000. trial. Now, this is not the other fraud trial, which will be coming up with Stormy Daniels and porn and that campaign money. This is a different fraud trial, which is him inflating his real

estate evaluations some 10 times over what the actual appraisals are. So Engoren puts up 355 million with the interest is an additional 100 million on top of the ruling for. The ruling for, E. Jean Carroll for 83 million, which was on top of the five million. And the response is Donald Trump is half a billy, half a billy in debt, in legal fees, in legal bullshit, because he can't keep his fucking mouth shut. But there's somebody else who I wish would shut the fuck up. And that is Kevin O'Leary, or better known as Mr. Wonderful on Shark Tank. Because, Kevin. Kevin O'Leary, if people watch Shark Tank, which I only do when I'm at home with my parents, is the shrewdest, rudest, like, nastiest kind of business person that is like, in it for himself,

will gouge new young entrepreneurs out of, like, their royalties, out of everything. And so he comes out and says that this ruling against Donald Trump and his fraudulent real estate practices. He said an assault. He called it an assault on real estate. I'm sorry. What rich white man? I can't hear you. An assault how? You say, an appraisal says that your seven springs real estate property is worth roughly 20 million, but in Donald Trump's fantasies, it's worth 200 million. How is that an assault on real estate? I don't understand. Andy, you are rich and white. Please explain it to me. I am one of the 50% of that. You're 50%?

Although being Jewish, there are white people who would say I'm none of that. So I get confused. I don't know what I am. Yeah, I have no idea who that guy is that you're talking about, by the way. Lucky for you. I have never seen an episode of Shark Tank. What was nice about this ruling in addition to the hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars that this hopefully will cost Donald Trump was basically what Judge and Gras.

it was the things he said, like that sort of described, I don't know, the mindset or just, or basically like the way Trump operates. And it's a kind of thing we all say, but it's not the kind of thing we've seen our legal system really deal with in a good way until now. Here's this quote from the ruling. Judge Goren noted the complete lack of contrition and remorse from Trump. And he said it borders on pathological. And he basically said, look, what they did here, they're not accused of murder. They're accused of, like you said, of inflating the value of assets. And over and over and over again, it was shown that they did that. As the judge said, quote, yet defendants are incapable of admitting the error of their ways. Instead, they adopt to see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil,

posture that the evidence belies. And again, that's what we've seen from Trump over and over again, with never admitting to a mistake, showing absolutely no contrition or remorse for anything bad that he's done. This is not new to anyone who has been alive over the past eight years or longer than that, particularly if you lived in New York and have been aware of Donald Trump for a really, really long time. But to actually hear it and see it in a ruling from a judge was pretty nice, I thought. The judgeing Gord himself said, he said, look, I'm not here to judge morality. or that's not what the court is here for. You know, we have to find facts and apply the law.

But he said, basically, it makes it really hard to apply the law when not only does the Trump side, they won't admit they do anything wrong. They are basically saying, we are going to continue to keep doing this. And he's like, y'all gave me no choice. Like, I had to do this. I had to find you. And I had to find you pretty damn bigly because there was nothing in your behavior or in anything you said where you recognized that you fucked up and you wouldn't do it again.

You know, when he said that their behavior, their lack of remorse or whatever he said, borders on pathological, I'm like, what's the border psychotic? What are we looking at here? Because you're right. Had they shown some type of contrition, had they shown some type of remorse, like, oh, we didn't know or try and pin it all on their former COO, Weisselberg, then maybe it wouldn't have been such a high fee. But I think that my place is that he didn't go, the judge did not go far enough because I personally believe that Donald Trump should be barred from doing business in New York

for life. Like, you should not be able to set up business at all. Not you, not your kids. And you should be banned because this was so overt. The case that AG Tish James laid out was just so blatant. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, think of it. about like small business owners walking into a bank trying to get loans, you're begging and pleading. And they just open up the gold mines for Donald Trump. He's been able to trade on his name and trade on these lies. And the fact that they have said, well, the banks got on the stand and said, well, no harm, no foul, just shows you what a good old white boys network this truly fucking is. Like, you know it if you're not in it. But to see it like, oh, well, we'll,

no one was harmed. Who was no one? Right? So I just think that for me, and Gorin could have gone further and really laid it out and said, pack up your bags and your gold toilets and just stay your ass in Florida because you ain't doing business here ever again. Speaking of massive, massive missteps that hopefully will see the same type of blowback that Donald Trump is experiencing, a la fucking Bama. You know, let me tell you something about these red states and their states rights and their bullshit. So since the overturning of Roe v.

Wade, we have heard, and I've talked about on here, so many horrific stories. Women sitting in parking lots waiting to bleed out, needing to flee their states in order to get abortion care. We've heard these stories and those women, brave women, testified before. the Senate. And we think, oh, well, these states, they'll just stop there, right? Like, it's enough to, you know, throw women in jail. It's enough to throw women in jail for having a miscarriage and all of these horrible things that we're seeing happen. But no, no. Alabama said, hold my beer. And now the Alabama Supreme Court has ruled that, quote, frozen embryos are children and they are citing

the Bible. I don't know what to say, but they are now going after IVF in vitro fertilization, which many couples straight, gay, queer use as a way to have families, which is what I thought conservatives wanted. I thought they wanted everybody to have kids. But no, now going through in vitro in the eyes of the Alabama Supreme Court is now going against the Bible, which apparently is what we're all being ruled by, Andy. So I don't know if you've dusted off your copy, but you should do that and replace the large photo you may have of the Constitution, because that shit don't matter. I actually feel like I know more about the Bible than any of these fools do. And I don't mean by that that I'm a biblical scholar. Trust me. I just feel like they have a very,

pick and choose method of reading the Bible. It's quite something. This is absolutely unbelievable. Kind of like you. Like I have no words for this. You know, we have got a judge here, a justice at the Alabama Supreme Court. This is according to the Alabama political reporter, citing two overtly Christian texts, Theology Today and Manhattan Declaration, the call of Christian conscience, to help define the phrase sanctity of life. and explicitly using texts like this in a legal decision at the level of a state Supreme Court, arguing that life begins at conception because, quote, all human beings bear God's image from the moment of conception. If this doesn't get thrown out on appeal, we might as well just shut down the whole system. And I'm not sure it will. That's the scary part at this point, considering how many Trump appointees are now at the district court,

Court of Appeals and Supreme Court levels. Who the hell knows these days? There was a time not that long ago, I think, when even you would think, even the, like, I can't even imagine, and maybe I'm wrong here, but I can't even imagine, like, the Rehnquist court looking at something like this and saying, you know, no, yeah, that sounds right. I just feel like even William Rehnquist would be like, girl. But I have absolutely no confidence in the people on the Supreme Court now. I don't know how much more clear it can be that you can't make rulings like this

at a state court based on theological texts. I mean, are you sure? Because we live inside of a theocracy now. So we've been saying for a long time, and not just us, obviously, but so much of this right-wing stuff just comes from wanting to live in a theocracy. And we see it with their opinions about women, their opinions about queer people, their opinions about everything is just they want to live in a theocracy as defined by them, which is where the man is the center of everything, the head of everything.

and, you know, the only possible family is mommy and daddy and 2.5 kids or maybe six or seven kids. I don't know. They have tried very hard to legislate some of this stuff. And I feel like in a lot of cases they've been, unfortunately, in some cases they've been successful, but in a lot of cases, they've been unsuccessful. So they have decided that the courts are the way to go here. And they have taken over a court system in a lot of states. And again, at the federal levels, thanks to numerous, Trump appointees, they have set up a court system that is very sympathetic to these arguments and to a theological worldview. None of this squares with the Constitution, but none of these people give a good goddamn about the Constitution, obviously. And a lot of them will talk about how they are

strict constructionists, but I'm here to say that they are not. I have to read this quote from the Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Tom Parker, who is quoted in the Alabama political reporter, and this is what he said about this case. Quote, when the people of Alabama adopted the, quote, sanctity of life provision of the state constitution, they did not use the term inviability with its secular connotations, but rather they chose the term sanctity with all of its connotations, Parker wrote. Quote, this kind of acceptance is not far into our constitution, which in it, its preamble invokes the favor and guidance of all Almighty God and which declares that all men are endowed with life by their creator.

Lord Jesus Christ. Like, these people, the handmaid's tale for them does not go far enough. I just realized that you added Lord Jesus Christ at the end there. I added Lord. Sorry. I thought, no, honestly, I was like, is she saying that as a reaction or did he actually put that in it? Because I could believe either one.

Mm-hmm. I add lift. But honestly, this man is a chief justice who is supposed to believe in the rule of law. He is not a pastor. And me reading that, what would be the difference between like a mega church pastor and this man who was supposed to be making laws? This is wild. And when we talk about activist judges, this is what the fuck we need to be talking about.

This is a good time to remind folks that many of us grew up learning that America, was founded by people fleeing religious persecution. And that's true. I'm talking about the Puritans here. But don't forget that what they were fleeing was they were pissed because they couldn't impose their incredibly strict views of religion on other people. So that part, I feel like at least when I was young, didn't get taught in the elementary school textbooks or even the high school textbooks, for that matter. We have a long tradition in this country of wanting to police other people's religion and run people's lives based on our views of religion. And this is more of the same,

but it seems to be growing exponentially as we speak. I'd love to put them back on a boat. You know what I'm saying? I honestly wish there was another new world that they could go to. Mars? Well, you know, if they could just get together with Elon and they could all go to Mars,

sure. Why not? People who can join them as well on Mars are the people who decided that Saturday afternoon in Nashville was a good time to put on Nazi gear and have a march. Thankfully, it was only a couple dozen people, but we're at a point where people just feel like, hey, I want to put on my Nazi shit and go have a Nazi march. And we don't really talk about it anymore.

We kind of are like, yeah, I saw that last weekend or, you know, oh, yeah, last month that happened here. I don't know. Maybe we should start talking about how it keeps happening in this country. I'm glad it was only a couple dozen people and not a couple hundred or a couple a thousand, but it still ain't good. That's a couple dozen too many, as far as I'm concerned. What makes me really just outraged by this is one, once again, these motherfuckers do not don

their faces. They hide. And they hide wonderfully under these masks that they purchase. And I'm thinking to myself, maybe if we gave a fuck about investigating white domestic terrorists in this country, one of the ways would be, oh, I don't know, to try. track the transactions of where you're getting this gear in the first place, these little matching swat stick of outfits that you all have on. And it was just,

it was representative Justin Jones, who was in downtown Nashville, leaving an event, a black sorrows event during Black History Month, where he turned on his IG and was just like, can you all look at what is going on behind me in downtown Nashville and broad daylight on a Saturday afternoon? And to your point,

Andy, what is very concerning is that we have all become apparently, or the mainstream media has become desensitized to this because it didn't get any play. And this is intimidation. In Tennessee, just mind you, you're able to walk around brandishing weapons as well. How we should be talking about this is domestic terrorism. That's what this is. When you are seeking to terrorize communities into compliance and submission. But these are the good people, Donald Trump, loves to lift up. Yeah, I mean, I wonder how many of those two dozen people were actually very fine people. I believe you have the right to march in a Nazi uniform in America. You have a First Amendment right to do so. And look, I have to say that at least from what I read about it,

the community response seemed pretty overwhelmingly great. So good. I mean, obviously, that's fantastic. I worry that, you know, we look at these things and we say, oh, they're so small. You know, this is so small. But you know what? It's from these small things that you end up with Charlotte's And it's from these small things that you end up with people deciding they want to, I don't know, murder other people because they're Jewish or because they're black or because they're whatever or not whatever. I just think it's important that we keep an eye on this stuff. And like you said, I worry that we've become really desensitized to a lot of it. It sort of barely registers as a blip if it registers at all. That's how Donald Trump has been able to corrode our politics.

and our media. Folks, I am very happy to welcome back to the new abnormal, Dr. Christina Greer, who is a political scientist and associate professor at Fordham University, the author of Black Ethics, co-host of FACQ NYC, and host of the Blackest Questions on the Greo Black Pods. Christina, we are living in wild times, and every time that I talk to you, it's like I can't even wrap my mind around the original reason I asked you to come on because 85 things will have happened in the middle. What I will say is that the Biden campaign, I believe in many ways, is not moving in the way that it should that allows us to believe that they are listening

and understand where the base of the Democratic Party is. Also understanding the existential threat that the Republican Party, not just Donald Trump, but the entirety of the Republican Party, are posing on our democracy. We've talked on this show about Project 2025 coming out of the Heritage Foundation, a billion-dollar plan to gut government from the inside out, to put in place sycophants that are loyal to Donald Trump or to whom whatever Republican becomes president are being trained. on ways to dismantle our agencies beginning on day one. Do you feel that the current administration and the Biden campaign are equipped in dealing with what we are facing right now? No. And largely because of two things.

One, we know that the Democrats have never been good at marketing themselves, right? We know that they'll do something great and they just rest on the fact. they're like, oh, well, folks will know that we did it. Remember when Barack Obama saved us from falling off of financial cliff and dragging the rest of the world with it? When he put together the America Rediscovery Back to Work Act, when people had real jobs and money in their pockets, and they had no idea was because of the Obama administration. Similarly with the Biden administration, Biden-Harris administration, they've created jobs, they've helped people's student loans, they've, you know, short up certain climate change policies. They've undone lots of really damaging

Trump policies. And they're like, well, we're just working really diligently and people will figure it out. They won't figure it out. And so we know that Donald Trump and also, and I think it's really important. And I think it's really important. You always sort of make sure that we don't think it's just one man, which is really important. But it's Donald Trump and the Republican Party are really good at marketing. I mean, there's a reason why he's hawking sneakers and stakes and ties and water and buildings and you name it because he fails at almost everything. But he's really good at letting people know what he's doing, even if it's bluster. And so in a world of sound bites and just quickie headlines, as people scroll through, the Biden administration is really struggling and has always struggled and Democrats have struggled with articulating the vision and how that vision is actually manifesting into actual results. I feel like the best surrogate that Joe Biden has ever had. And I'm not a personal fan of this man, but he's really good at his job as far as the Democrats are concerned. It's Pete Buttigieg. I think he's the best weapon they have. And I haven't seen or heard from him in. months as far as articulating the vision of the Biden-Harris administration. So they're definitely starting behind the eight ball. And I think it gets a little more complicated because when we think about international relations where Democrats and Republicans have oftentimes been in lockstep, and this time we're seeing, you know, real divisions where, you know, Donald Trump's like, I love Putin. And now you have members of the Republican Party who are like, sure, we do too, because they just don't want to be on the end of his ire. But you also have far, far left-leaning Democrats,

or say people on the far left and people on the far right agreeing about the amount of money we're spending overseas. And that really complicates the message and the vision of the Biden-Harris administration because a lot of people aren't going to listen to what Donald Trump says down the line. I mean, this man is literally saying, I want to be a dictator. He's literally saying I will not, you know, have people who are going to give me any stopgap like I did last time. Like, I'm just going to, like, start canceling agencies that have been around for decades, if not centuries, and just run with it, you know? Like, he never had a board of directors. when he had his businesses. He just wants to run the country into the ground like his business

and it's smash and grab and like, let me just get all this money. And who cares about the future and my kids? And you'll figure it out. Right? If you're smart, you'll get money. If not, you're a sucker. And so a lot of folks don't think about what happens down the line once he's essentially stripped this country for parts because that's what he's done his entire career. And Biden's message of like, he's dangerous isn't really resonating with people because a lot of folks are like, well, I'm strapped now. Like, I'm stuck. And we know that there are two people who never vote. And it's like the super poor and the super rich. And more and more people are getting in the super poor category where it's just housing is not great. Job prospects aren't really great

for a particular segment of the population. School systems are defunded. You know, I mean, we're New Yorkers, right? We just saw that our Democratic mayor, I put that in quotes, you know, took out $100 billion from the education budget. Now we've got an NYPD dance team. Say, What? Yeah, which is amazing. And if I see it, and I'm a voter and, you know, I take political science and politics very seriously, if I'm just a casual participant, I'm looking at this, it's like, who is in charge of the store? Clearly no one. So either I'm going to abstain from participation or I'm just going to take a chance on someone who's proposing some crazy radical ideas. It's like, you know what, maybe we do need a dictator just come in here and just

write the wrongs and then we'll get back on track. Because that's how history has ever played out. But how many Americans know history. Right? Like when you defund your schools, how many folks actually know what happens? When you turn the page after you've played with the dictator, no one's ever a dictator for a day. You know, and I think that what's interesting, because you said a couple of things that I want to go back to, which is one, what Donald Trump has been successful at is stripping down businesses and selling them for their part. And that is exactly what he's doing with America. Why did Donald Trump have, oh, I don't know, a truckload of documents? Well, it turns out that that motherfucker is in considerable amount of debt.

And that was before the judgments that came out for $83 million with E. Jean Carroll on top of the $5 million from before that. Now $355 million on top of $100 million in interest. He knew, I believe, that these kinds of things were going to be coming out. hence while he decided to say that he was going to run earlier than normal so that he could call it a witch hunt, but also he took those documents as an insurance policy. But here we are, Christina, where we are holding our breath, waiting on a justice system that grinds like molasses, thinking that somehow it's going to catch up with Donald Trump, that every time we see, well, now he owes this amount of money, now he owes this amount of money.

the only thing that keeps coming up from me is that the more money Donald Trump owes, the more dangerous he is becoming. Do you agree? I agree. I mean, first of all, I don't think we're ever going to see one red cent. Like, I don't think this man, he's never paid his debts. So I don't understand why anyone thinks that he's going to pay him. People are like, well, he has to. I'm like, listen, he's signed contracts that he's just not fulfilled.

You know, I mean, half of New York has money owed to them by Donald Trump and his companies, just because. he doesn't do it. So I don't even know, first of all, he doesn't have the money. Everybody knows he doesn't have the money. He's a thousandaire at best. But the way that he's run his operations, it's just, I don't even know the words for it. I mean, it's a shell game. You know that old joke where it's like, you owe the bank a million dollars. They have you over a barrel. You owe the bank a hundred million dollars. You have them over a barrel. And that's the way he's been able to operate. And it's nothing but white supremacy. Because like, let's be clear, you and I are never getting the loans that Donald Trump has gotten throughout his entire life, right? No one looks at a black woman

coming in. It's like, I know you've got, you know, seven bankruptcies and no real cash on hand. But hey, let me just go ahead and give you this extra $50 million for this, you know, building to nowhere with no prospects of ever filling it up. So he's not just lucky. He's been able to benefit in a system that has, you know, celebrated and elevated mediocre white men for the beginning of an inception of our nation. I think where we differ respectfully is that I'm an incrementalist. So, you know, we've talked about this over cocktails. It's like, I believe in kind of the Machiavellian provinces easily won or easily lost. So I actually like the fact that it takes a while for change to happen because in a dictatorship,

things can happen real fast one way and then real fast the other way. And I like the fact that like American democracy has to go through checks and balances. And like, this is, you know, before Trump is trying to undo all this. But like, we do have a separation of powers. And we do have, you know, we want to make a law. It is going to take some time. I don't want everything to be an executive order. You know, and luckily for us, he didn't understand the first time around how executive

orders really worked. He didn't understand how the legislative process worked. What worries me about possible second time around is that he's like, I'm not going to fill this. We thought Jeff Sessions and Bill Barr were terrible. But they were at least like, you know, hey, this is a bridge too far. I can't. At certain points of time, they're like, yeah, I actually not, I can't do that. He's not even going to worry about those folks. He's going to get the bottom of the barrel. People who were like, okay, I have a limited amount of time to make this money and that's all that matters. And let's just get rid of all these judges that actually respect the Constitution. So in political science, we talk about, you know, the logic of collective action. And it's like, we can't have a nation of people who think like Donald Trump. We can't have. a large percentage of people who think not paying their taxes is just for, you know, is the thing

to do. And people who pay taxes are for suckers. Like, and that's a really complicated and hard conversation to have because what we found out in 2017 when he was sworn in was that so, you know, when he tried with the Muslim ban, so many of the, what we thought were institutions that were codified by law, they were actually just gentlemen's agreements of how people behaved. Yep. In a relatively respectful way. You know, we didn't always. agree with things, but, you know, and things changed over time for women for people of color, for immigrants, you name it. But he was just like, oh, no, I don't care. Like, Jimmy Carter sold his peanut farm. He's a sucker. Like, I'm not getting rid of my businesses. And if I am,

I'm just putting them in my son's names. And so I'm still going to look at all the records every morning. I mean, I was just talking to someone about the Trump Hotel, right? Which is now closed down. And he was like, I just need it for four years or four or eight years so I can see the manifesto of who's staying at my hotel to see who gets a meeting with me. You know, people were booking rooms in that hotel and not even staying in the hotel because they just knew that he was looking at the register every morning, every morning, right? He doesn't care about briefings about Ukraine or, you know, anything else. He cares about money. And he always has. But if you sort of let that be the rotting fertilizer of this nation, because don't forget, racialized capitalism

is the foundation of this country as Bill Hicks has told us. But like, you can't let it be as insidious as the way Donald Trump in the 21st century is making it. Because I'm like, If y'all read a book, we know what happened in France, right? You starve all the poor people. Guess what? The only thing they have to eat is the rich. That's it. And we're getting dangerously close to starving a lot of people and also a lot of people saying,

well, why am I paying taxes? I don't want to support genocide across the waters in several nations, right, in several continents. I don't want to support a military industrial complex. I don't want to support a police department that's beating up and killing people who look like me. I don't want to support X, Y, and Z. The list goes down the line. And then you get more and more people who are like, well, then I'm not buying into the system. I'm sorry, then how does the system work?

Because you and I have both been to countries where something is two miles away and they say it's a two and a half hour drive. How is that? You don't have any roads. And Petro is, you know, $5 a liter. So we're getting, because we've never been honest about the type of country we've always have been, the brochure has always been, you know, a five-star, you know, where it's Carlton. For seasons. Oh, listen.

But then it's like, this is a Howard Johnson at best, if not a motel sex, with mold. And you ask around. But we've never had those honest conversations. And I think the thing about Donald Trump is that he just exposes things. And some people like it. Like they like that they can just be their base selves, you know? This is what I'm saying is that the MAGA people, and this is where I find that Joe Biden and the Harris campaign are in trouble. And I say that not because, like, I want to tap dance about it, but because, like,

you have still have plenty of time to course correct in a way that is going to make sense. The stark difference between the MAGA people and everyone else is that they love being lied to. They love being lied to. This is the thing that I'm convinced of, and I posted about it over the weekend, is that these people love being lied to because Donald Trump, they have intertwined. themselves with this man and they want to be like him. And so anything that goes against the idea that he is a genius, that he is their martyr and their savior, goes against the lie that they've been telling themselves about their own superiority. It's all intertwined. And so Donald Trump can continue to lie to their faces and they love it. They eat it up because they've never actually

looked at their own reflection. They've only ever been fed back what society has said is whiteness. And so you should have these privileges. You should have these things. And Donald Trump is like, yes, go get it, go get it. On the other hand, Biden is dealing in reality. And the reality is exactly what you laid out. Far too many people are getting to that brink of being starving. And starving in a way for hopefulness that their lives are going to get better. that government is actually something that is in place to make your day-to-day life better. And I'm feeding into a system that is about uplifting me. And so because he, Biden, is faced with what the truth is, he is really constrained in how to both,

one, say, look at all the things that I've done, which fall on non-listening ears, when in fact, people are looking around and saying, but bread still costs. this and eggs still cost this and gas still costs this. So the question is how do you at one time celebrate the wins that it resonates with people that this administration has had while at the same time making it very clear that whether or not you love Biden, there is not an alternative if you like freedom. That's a hard conversation and sell to like get people to understand, right? Because, one, most people don't read the news the way we read the news. And they just go on kind of like vibes, you know? And so they're like, well, my circumstance hasn't changed and he's the incumbent. And so in political science literature, you know, we always talk about the incumbency advantage, right? You do have an advantage, you know, with the press and all these other things. The difference with Biden is that he actually doesn't have the same type of advantage because Trump is better at stealing the headlines. He's the one who's on the front page of the paper every day. Whether it's good or bad. I mean, for him, he's like the press is, is still. still in my pocket, right? And we've seen the press has learned relatively little in the past

few years that Donald Trump has been, you know, a national leader. And so, and they still refuse to recognize white nationalism. They still refuse to recognize white supremacy. They still refuse to recognize how this man has a white nationalist agenda. I mean, like, all these things. It's like, we're ringing the alarm people. We can't say it enough. And I, and I've said this before, and I stand by it, white people fundamentally do not understand the danger of other white people. And I think black people definitely do, and we understand historically and present day. But I think that there are a lot of like left leaning and middle of the road and weak leaning Republicans who don't really think that he's going to do what he says he's going to do. They don't really think that everyone will fall in line. They don't really think that all the Republicans will just, you know, abdicate to this man. And it's like, but they will. And we know what that looks like for everybody. And I mean, this is why, you know, black women as the keepers of democracy, not just the Democratic Party. You know, they're the canaries in the mob. Letting everyone know the dangers that lie ahead, we can't, you know, Tish James, Fannie Willis, Christina Greer, Danielle Moody.

Like, there is a way that black women put together the scenario because there's something about us and freedom as being, you know, racially, we're not white, we're black. Gender-wise, we're not men, we're women. And, like, we see sort of all of the dangers. in front of us. And we try and alert people. I don't think people are taking Donald Trump as seriously as they should and the threat to democracy. And like, let's be clear, if you look at democracies across the globe when they started and kind of when they, they crumbled, I mean, we're kind of at our expiration date. Like, this is around the time where things kind of go off the rails. Like,

it's just, this is the way it's happened in the past. So we're on shaky ground. And I don't, I think what makes it complicated is that, you know, no, Joe Biden's. not the soaring orator. No, many people don't like Kamala Harris and they definitely don't want a black female as the president, right? I mean, so part of the Joe Biden age conversation that keeps showing up in the front page of every paper is essentially a veiled threat of like, you vote for this man, you're voting for a black woman to possibly be your president. Tick, tick, children of two immigrants. Yeah. I mean, that's sort of the subtext. Nicky Haley said it out loud. So I just think that we're in this moment where we have a president who has a lot of hits. He's got a lot of

wins. He's done a lot for this country. But hasn't been able to articulate it. He is long in the tooth. Like, let's not, let's not lie. This was supposed to be a bridge presidency. And it's now turning into a two-termer. You know, he's running for a second term, which, you know, now is not the time to have the conversation about, oh, you know, what if it were Whitmer and Newsom? Hey, that ship has sailed. It's not happening. If we were going to have that conversation, we should have had it in 2022. And we didn't, and it's too late to have it now. So these are the cards we have. We got to play them. Yeah. On that, my friend, I got to thank you so much. The breakdowns that you provide every time that you join us on the new abnormal are so very real. And this is where we are. These are the

cards that we are dealt, and we have to play them to the best of our ability because the Republican Party is fit and to play all of us. Oh yeah. And they play dirty. And they play to win. And they play dirty and to win. My friend, Dr. Christina Greer, thank you so much for making the time for the new abnormal. Appreciate you. Have a wonderful one. Whatever happened to Reagan republicanism? And are the issues the GOP has made front and center of its 2024 campaign actually a problem for that party? Joining me now to hopefully answer these questions is Daily Beast political reporter Riley Rogerson. Riley, thank you so much for being here. Yeah, great to be hurt. Thanks for inviting me, Andy. Absolutely. I want to shake things up and take the second question first, because I sense that

you've gotten a little too comfortable in your lofty perch as a beast politics reporter. So let's talk about the GOPs, the sort of the gold star campaign issues that they are running on and why you think they may have chosen poorly. First, what are these issues? Sure. So the two issues that it seems the Republican Party has really tried to focus on. And when I talk about the Republican Party, I'm focused on the House races and the Senate races in particular. They've focused on the economy. They really hammered inflation as being a big issue and have for years now. And the other one is the Biden administration's immigration policies and wanting to change those. So those have been the two subjects of attack ads, of speeches on the House floor, of, you know, just conversations

that I've had with various members that they really want to emphasize to voters. And in fairness, I've also heard this from voters as well, that these are issues that are top of mind. Yes. So what do you think is the problem with these as campaign issues? People don't like inflation. A lot of Americans seem to think we have a border crisis. And I keep hearing over and over again how the economy is terrible and that all of these things are Joe Biden and the Democrats' fault. Right.

So I think timing is key when we take a look at the economy. Post-COVID, absolutely, the economy was really struggling. Inflation was high. there were all sorts of talks of recession. But looking at some of the indicators now, the economy seems to be in recovery. And I think when you look at polls, some recent polling shows that voters are starting to feel that. More and more voters think that the economy is in recovery versus, you know, going the opposite direction.

I think it's just a matter of timing there that things are starting to recover just as the 2024 presidential election is kicking into full swing. I think costs are starting to come down. Voters are starting to feel that at least that's the case the Democrats are trying to make on the economy. The other piece of this is that the Biden administration and Democrats in Congress passed a ton of legislation in the first half of the Biden presidency. That's the Chips and Science Act, the Inflation Reduction Act, the Bipartisan Infrastructure and Jobs Act. These are billions, in the case of the infrastructure bill, trillion dollar pieces of legislation that are invested in. in building jobs, in growing American manufacturing. And I think people are excited about having more jobs in their communities.

The Biden administration itself has noted that there's been a lag between the passing of those bills and actually those jobs starting on the ground. That's just a matter of the investments taking some time. But they're optimistic that in the course of the next year, people are going to start to feel that more and more and give some credit to the Democrats. How are the Democrats messaging on economic issues, inflation on jobs and stuff like that. Because again, by all the metrics that we use, the economy is improving. Some might even call it good. But so many people don't believe that. And they seem to

blame that again on Joe Biden and the Democrats. How are the Democrats countering this? That is, I think, the question for the Democrats now that they are trying to figure out. And I think talking to strategists, talking to members, they're focused on telling this story of under Democrats, they passed critical economic legislation. You can see now the economy is starting to be in recovery. When you look at what the Republicans have done with their House majority, it's really been nothing, nothing that has been tangible passed into law. They've tried to pass pieces of legislation that they claim will, you know, bring down

inflation, but nothing is that would be considered in the Senate or, you know, at the White House, nothing, you know, no serious policy that could actually go anywhere. So I think Democrats are really focused on showing votes. voters, they're deliverables, and are hoping that they can, as the economy continues to improve, that they can make that case. Okay. And I guess on immigration and the border, the GOP trashed what was in effect its own border bill.

And by that, I mean the Democrats gave them pretty much everything they wanted. So will the GOP pay a price for this? Will the Democrats make them pay a price for this? Or are they going to be able to spin this as they have been doing by basically lying about what was in the bill and claiming that they are still somehow. the border hawks, even though they trashed a border bill that was incredibly hawkish. Yeah, absolutely. Again, this is going to be the challenging question for Democrats is if they can make this case

to swing voters, you know, across the country that do care quite deeply about what's happening at the U.S.-Mexico border. Democrats are going to try their hardest. That's what I've heard from Democratic members, from strategists. And we're already starting to see in that first swing or special election in New York to replace George Santos. Immigration was a critical issue there. When I had a conversation with the strategist a few weeks ago, they made the case to me that you kind of get lost in the sauce

if you try to tell this story about, you know, Republicans said they wanted border policy. They attached it to foreign aid. Then they didn't want it. Now they do again. Like, it is actually a pretty confusing story to follow as someone who lives and breathes this stuff all day. Sure.

What they want to make is that former president, Trump is behind all of this. Republicans are not taking action on the border, a policy they've said they wanted to do for, you know, years now because it's not politically expedient for the former president. That's a case that I think Democrats have some evidence for that they can, you know, put in ads and say, Republicans aren't serious. They're doing Trump's bidding in Congress. Look at us, Democrats. We tried to come up with compromise legislation. We're the party that's serious. And if you take a look at that New York race that I mentioned, that was really what Tom Swazzi, the case that he made to voters. And he was successful flipping that district.

Obviously, there were a lot of other factors at play at that race. I don't want to hang that all on the immigration rhetoric. But it does seem to be a message that started to work with voters. So we'll see if Democrats can continue to, you know, run ads on that and talk about that in the coming months. Well, and certainly as Senator Chris Murphy and others have said, this does seem to be, the way the Democrats, or at least some Democrats think they need to go on the national level or, you know, across the country when it comes to messaging immigration. Right. Yeah, Chris Murphy is making that case. There are, you know, several others in Congress

who think Democrats need to be going on the offense here, for sure. You had an interesting sentence in the piece you wrote about this. You said Republicans are hoping that voters will care more about their feelings than the facts. I think that's fairly close to 100% correct. Like, it's hard to argue. with that? Are they wrong to do so? And by that, I mean, from just a raw, naked political perspective, like, are they wrong to hope for that or to count on that? Because there does seem to be a lot of that going around. Yeah. I think that that's a good question is, you know, will that strategy work for them? And I think only time will tell what's going to happen with the economy. Something I should have

probably mentioned in the story is, you know, at this time in the presidential election cycle in 2020 COVID was not even, you know, in full force. We were not in lockdown yet. There's so many factors that are going to come into play in these congressional races and the presidential race. So it's kind of impossible to know. But in terms of the economy, I think the Republicans, again, from a completely naked political perspective, it would, you know, not maybe be in their best interest if the economy continues to improve. If these so-called, you know, binomic policies start to really bear fruit. But yeah, for now, I think this is a long process for Democrats to make the case to voters that the economy is doing better under Biden than it would under Republicans. So for now,

I think that the Republican strategy is one that does seem to be connecting with voters. But like I mentioned at the beginning, some of those polls are starting to turn. So I guess we'll see is the short answer. Yeah. No, that's really interesting. I also should point out that when you wrote that sentence, you were talking about that that was sort of vis-a-vis the economy. While I agree with that I think it also works for the other issues you're talking about here for immigration, for example. Right. I think that that's true as well. When you look at the facts of who came to the table on trying to come up with some kind of compromise immigration restriction bill, you know, Democrats were serious about doing that. The likes of, you know, Chuck Schumer, Chris Murphy,

they were there. They were serious. The White House had, you know, their surrogates at the table. Republicans did for a time. Mitch McConnell was serious about the bill, as was the chief negotiation. for Republicans, James Langford, who's taken an absolute beating. It's been pretty incredible to watch. He really has. For being involved. So, you know, there are some Republicans who are serious, but I think, you know, Democrats, they do have, you know, the facts of they have tried to pass this serious legislation

that they hoped could get 60 votes in the Senate, could get a majority in the House, and could get signed into law. So again, though, we will see it'll be up to the voters to actually make the determination of who makes the better argument. in 2024. Yeah, for sure. Okay, so let's turn to foreign policy, which is where your piece on how Trump is killing off the Reagan Republicans comes in. And basically, so, you know, the GOP has rebranded itself as the party of isolation. And I was thinking maybe it's more apt to say that it's returning to its early and mid-20th century roots as the party of isolation. But either way, that's where the party is now. And as your piece,

you know, notably pointed out, I'm hard pressed to think of a quote unquote Reagan Republican who is still in the House or Senate and is still a Reagan Republican. Yeah, I think it's definitely a shrinking group of Republicans that are living up to, you know, Reagan's ideas of peace through strength, of, you know, pushing back hard on, you know, Russian aggression. It is definitely a shrinking group. I think that there are still Republicans in Congress who, you know, who really subscribe to that ideology. And you saw that they voted for a foreign aid package with aid to Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan in the early hours of the morning after Super Bowl Sunday. But they were all in on Super Bowl Sunday to try to make this happen.

There were, I think, 22 Senate Republicans who backed a bill like that. But what's notable is that is the minority of the Republicans cohort in the Senate. So it's kind of becoming, you know, less than half of congressional Republicans are. you know, out there supporting U.S. aid abroad and for countries that are at war, like Ukraine and like Israel, things that would be absolute no-brainers, probably in the pre-Trump era. So they do exist. I think it's just a shrinking group. The other piece that I mentioned in the story, and I thought this was really remarkable, is one Senator Eric Schmidt from Missouri, he's relatively new to the Senate. He pointed out that most of the Senate Republicans who opposed that

foreign aid bill were under the age of 55 and had been elected since 2018, which I think is a really startling fact to show kind of the immediate progression of the party. And that it really remains some of these old guard Republicans who are kind of taking up that Reagan mantle. But it's, there's not a not quite enough of them to keep that going. Yeah. And I clearly was exaggerating a bit when I said I'm hard pressed to think of a single one. Obviously, yes, you're right. I think it was James Quigley. You mentioned Michael McCall, people like that. But really the people, I guess I was thinking more of, you know, the leadership or the people that we, I don't even know what you, how you would refer to them, the people that are always constantly on Fox News or are the Rand Pauls, Mike Lee, the people like that who I don't know if you would call them leadership, but they're among the most publicly prominent Republicans. And it definitely, as you said, in conjunction with this sort of new guard, this does seem to be the direction of the party. And then you see even people like Lindsey Graham, who has been, you know,

about as reliably Reagan Republican as you could be in your life until recently. And even now, he's voting to turn Ukrainian aid packages into like a new version of the Len Lease program where we just, you know, oh, well, we'll call it a loan. I think Lindsey Graham really turned some heads, for sure with that. Yeah. I mean, it is really just wild to watch a guy throw away, I guess, everything he at least claimed to stand for over a long political career. But I think that is a perfect indicator of what you say, that Reaganism is being killed off. And you mentioned in the peace, the people like, you know, the people who were reliably Reaganist, people like Adam Kinzinger, Liz Cheney, this is not their party anymore. Yeah, they're gone. And I think if Trump world had

anything to do with it, those 22 Republicans who have voted for Ukraine aid would also be gone. I mean, and that's a really remarkable list of people now that the Trump World is now targeting. That's Joni Ernst, whose leadership in, you know, the Senate Republican Party. She's, I think, the number four ranking Republican from Iowa. Now Don Trump Jr. is calling for a primary challenge against her. Shelly Moore Capito from West Virginia. Her son is running for governor. And now, you know, Trump World's coming out against him as retaliation for his mom's vote on this. It's, it's getting pretty ugly. And there are real consequences for these Republicans who are continuing to back for an aid. So we'll see if there are more like Lindsey Graham who kind of

changed their tune to avoid those consequences. Yeah, I want to go back to what you said about the fact that so many of these neo-isolationists or whatever America firsters, whatever you want to call them, are younger and are newer. And what we're talking about here is sort of the, at least as of now, what appears to be the future of the party. And this is not one of those things that, oh, at some point Trump will go away and everything will get back to normal. I don't see, how that happens, at least not with this crop of Republicans. Yeah, that's a good point. There was an interesting moment when I was writing the story

where I had to kind of do the math of who's driving the bus here on this America First isolationism. Because when I talked to one young member, Eric Brulson, I asked him, why are these America First Republicans younger? And his answer to me was, you know, well, we're listening to Tucker Carlson. We're listening to Joe Rogan, Tim Pool, then Shapiro. I think they're really influenced by those thinkers and media personalities and, you know, everything

that they have to say. But of course, I think Trump's role in the party is paramount. His influence will be, I think, felt well after the 2024 election if he loses. And, you know, he's converted a lot of young people to his ideology. And I think the Republican Party will be feeling that for a long time. It's not nothing that this younger crop has grown up with America at war for decades. Yeah, that's an interesting point, too. I'm sure that that also has, you know, an influence on lawmakers who are a part of this camp. A lot of these younger lawmakers, they probably, I am guessing that they came to this, you know, even without Trump, they may have felt this way simply by looking around and being like, you know, look, we've been at war since 2001. There are people who say, what has it gotten us? And they look around and they say, it hasn't gotten us much. It's not like the Middle East is a hotbed of peace and democracy. So it just feels like a lot of this could be just a basic response to what Reaganism, in a sense, gave us.

That's an interesting point. And I'm sure there's a lot of interesting research on those sentiments now. I can't say that I explored it fully in my reporting on Capitol Hill. But I will say, as a member of Gen Z myself, that is something that my peers talk about growing up, you know, in the wake of 9-11. And, you know, America has been at more from the majority of my life. So that's definitely something I think that's in the public consciousness. Yeah, absolutely. Riley, thank you so much for being here. It's a pleasure to talk to you for the first time. And thanks for coming on. And thanks for filling in for people who don't know at home. Riley graciously agreed to fill in last minute when another guest had to postpone. I greatly appreciate you doing this in your free time. Yeah, absolutely. I'm happy to be on

anytime, Andy, and thanks for inviting me. Andy Levy. Danielle Moody. Andy Levy, how are we starting off this lovely partial holiday week in this good, good country, we call America. I want to start it off by introducing a new face to fuck that guy. He is a Georgia state senator. His name is Cardin Summers. He was the lead sponsor of Georgia's bathroom ban bill, the bill that would prevent trans people from using the bathroom that they should be using. This is reporting from Aaron Reed,

who has the great substack Aaron in the morning and has been a guest on this very show. Back on February 6th, as Reid writes, a bunch of families met to lobby senators

on issues that were being faced by the local trans community. And one mother took her two children with her. They were waiting to meet with a Democratic senator and Senator Summers passed by and he stopped

to say hello. And this woman, Lena Kotler, said she was there with her kids, to talk to legislators about keeping her kids safe. And then the senator misunderstood what she meant by that and sort of knelt down in front of one of Ms. Kotler's children and said, well, you know, we're working on that and I'm going

to protect kids like you. To which Kotler replied, yes, she is trans and wants to be safe at school. She wants to go to the bathroom and be safe. At which point, when Senator Summers realized that the child was trans, he started. stood up and basically tried to walk away saying, I mean, yeah, I'm going to make sure she's safe by going to the right bathroom. And then when he was asked if that meant he would make her go to the boys' bathroom, even though she is a trans girl, he backed away saying, you're attacking me and walked off quickly. So there's two points here. One, I mean, yes, this guy is a piece of shit.

And he thought he was using a little child as a prop for his bigoted views. and it turned out to be the other way around. The fact that he then said, you're attacking me, when he was simply asked if he would make this little girl go to the boy's bathroom, just shows these are just the biggest bullies in the world,

and they're so happy to pick on people whenever they get the chance. But if you ask them even the slightest question or ask them to defend themselves, they start crying about how you're, attacking them. These are just, these are the saddest people on the planet. I would say this is almost without exception that every person like this who has these views is also like this in the sense that they are just, they are a scared little bully and they just want so badly to boss other people around

and police other people's lives. And if you ask them a simple question, they immediately cannot handle it. So kudos to this woman, Lena Kotler and her daughter. And absolute fuck that guy to Georgia State Senator Cardin Summers. Trans people and trans children present a type of courage and freedom that these bullies, these oppressors do not want. They need the binary. They need it in order to preserve their power. So anyone who exists outside of the gender binary is a threat to that power.

And it's just so fucking clear and so disgusting that they use children as their pawns. And it makes me sick. So shout out to that brave mom and little girl for putting him in the spotlight. And welcome, welcome to fuck that guy, you piece of garbage. Yes. Oh, God. So, all right, Danielle, close us out. Who's your fuck that guy? Well, you know, we haven't heard from him in a while, and I know that it's made people sad, but somebody, a big giant meatball is rolling back into the headlines, and that would be the one and only Rob DeSantis. So apparently, after being the architect of the book bands that have taken. place all over red states and across the country, Ron DeSantis has found himself suddenly

backpedaling on what he says has gone completely and totally awry, which are all of these book bans that have happened because in his policy, he gave just one person the ability to remove all sorts of books from our public schools. And now he thinks that it's gone. too far. So now he's trying to course correct and have investigations into these people. And of course, somehow he's blaming both the left and the right, but not the fucking meatball face that's in the mirror for having done this. And also, I don't know anybody on the left that was calling up schools saying, please remove Tony Morrison, please remove Chase Buttigieg's book. No one was saying that on the left. This was from the right, the monster that he created, and now he wants to turn around. And of course, because

he's a fucking punk, not take any responsibility for the monster that he is created and fed with his lies and his bullshit. That is now posing a threat to the education, the critical thinking of students in that state. And I will say this. Like, we talk about it on a global scale about how people leave countries that are beginning to fail and move to different places, and it's called a brain drain. And you are seeing these things take place in places like Florida and other states across the country where teachers, nurses, doctors are fleeing those places because of the Giacronian policies that do not allow them to do their jobs. And now Ronda Sanzas wants to go, ooh, my bad, but he's not saying my bad. He's just blaming it on activists. He's

random activists. So for that reason, Rob, welcome back, buddy, to fuck that guy. Can't say I missed him, but welcome back. I'm back. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of the new abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend and keep the conversation going. This podcast is a Daily Beast production with production by Jesse Cannon and Seamus Calder. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the dailybeast.com

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