The Daily Beast Podcast - The Country Music Establishment Doesn’t Care If It’s Racist

Episode Date: July 30, 2023

Country singer Jason Aldean’s song and video “Try That in a Small Town” has created backlash, with critics claiming the song promotes violence and anti-Black rhetoric. Still, Aldean is just the tip of the racist iceberg for the country music business says historian Amanda Marie Martinez, who came on this bonus episode of The New Abnormal to discuss the Aldean controversy with Danielle. She shares insight into the genre’s racist history and why we shouldn’t expect them to change their tune anytime soon.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits pretty comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. Hello and welcome to another bonus episode of the new abnormal, and we thank you so much for being here.

Today we have an extra special guest with historian and NPR contributor Amanda Marie Martinez, who's going to talk to us about the racist history of country music. But first, let's have some fun. Are you guys ready to listen to some clips? Clips. Clips. All right, because we'll be on vacation, I've heard your pleas. I kept this one a bit more fun and less disheartening. I could have gone a number of ways, but I'm a merciful producer.

So. That's amazing. That's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah. Let's start off with similarity. Right as we taped today, Republican rep Nancy Bace, whose centrist loved to hail as the future of reasonable candidates, uttered something today that will throw embarrassment on that for the rest of her days. Here she explains what she sacrificed to be at Tim Scott's prayer breakfast.

today. On this together, another year, another standing room only event. And when I woke up this morning at seven, I was getting picked up at 745, Patrick, my fiance tried to pull me by my waist over this morning in bed. And I was like, no, baby, we don't got time for that this morning. I got to get to the prayer breakfast. And I got to be on time and a little TMI. But I, he can wait.

He's got, we got, I'll see him later tonight. What? Yes, the medical stuff, I'm very good on that. Listen, they can no longer not say what they're thinking at all ties once you enter that party. I, like, what? It makes it even better at hearing your genuine reaction. I know. I know.

Oh, my God. Also, who the fuck wakes up at seven when you have to be at seven 40s at 7. That is really weird. Yeah. I mean, look, she probably thought to herself, oh, it's a prayer breakfast. This is what they want to hear. Of all, like, it's, yeah, no shit. It's probably TMI, Nancy. Like, that would be TMI anywhere, but at a prayer breakfast, that's what, in your brain, that's what you're like, oh, this is what I should say.

I love it so much. Well, speaking of saying what people want to hear, here we have the failing Ron DeSantis, and I mean that as governor of his failing state and his pathetic campaign descending into a new place of failure for him. In the past, I feel like he's been calculatedly cruel, but this, to me, says he's just throwing out anything to try to get some alignments and find some voters that will donate to him since he's getting no small dollar donations.

Here he's going to talk about RFK and what he would nominate him for. Yes, the medical stuff, I'm very good on that. So that does appeal to me, but there's a whole host of other things that he'd probably be out of step with. And so on that regard, it's like, okay, if you're president, you know, sick him on the FDA if he'd be willing to serve or sick him on CDC. But in terms of being V, if there's, you know, 70% of the issues that he may be averse to our base on, you know, that just creates an issue. He doesn't know who his base is, right?

Like, that is, like, so fucking clear. Like, Ron DeSantis doesn't know who his base is, doesn't care about his base. And clearly, he doesn't give a fuck about the country because putting somebody like Robert Kennedy Jr., who doesn't believe in vaccines, as head as anybody's CDC, when we just had a global health pandemic that killed over a million people in this country and a lot of fucking people in Florida

after the vaccines were available because of Ron DeSantis. This motherfucker right here, I just want him to go away. And I mean that wholeheartedly. I want his campaign to implode. I want the state to implode. I want him to go away.

Yeah, he's just flailing at this. point and I mean this is an unbelievably stupid thing to say and an unbelievably stupid thing to have to worry about RFK Jr. as the head of the CDC or the FDA. But it is kind of fun watching DeSantis flail because it's just he's so bad. You know, like Danielle said, he doesn't know who his constituency is. I don't, yeah, I mean, it's either that or he just doesn't he doesn't know how to run a campaign. That's For sure. She doesn't know how to laugh, Andy. He literally doesn't know how to laugh like a human.

He laughs like Jack McFarland on Will and Grace. Me hungry. It's the exact same laugh. And I don't know why no one has pointed this out before. Because Jack was funny. Well, that's true. But it is kind of funny to me that, you know, this alpha male, whatever, laughs like Jack McFarland from Will and Grace.

I'm with you. He needs to go away. He needs to go away. so I don't have to talk about him anymore. I don't want to talk about them. Honestly. I don't want to talk about them. I will say the funniest thing that I encourage listeners to do is watch this footage

because whoever color graded it did it in like this dark dystopian color grade because they watched too many dystopian movies. And both the people in it look like they have the fucking plague because there's so much shadows around their faces. Because like for those who aren't tech savvy, you can turn up shadows. It literally looks like they're hiding in a bunker from fucking cholera. Well, that's because they're. they're anti-Vax. Yes, of course. Okay, here we have who Andy Levy has dubbed the dumbest man on

cable news who holds court on countless hours a week on the Fox News Network, and I'm going to shock you here, but he's going to show us just how dumb he is. So you should call up Donald and tell him how that you are about it. Yeah, let's get Jesse. She's so upset about RFK Jr. So what if he believes certain things about vaccines? So what? If he believes certain vaccines are dangerous, So what, Jessica? So what? Why are you so passionate about what he believes about vaccines? Why is that such a threat to you personally?

Yeah. So what? And why did you do it? Why did you make that smart decision? Because my doctor said to get him vaxed. So what if he believes that about vaccines? I've never seen you so upset over anything on the show. I think the Dobbs really was bad.

Because what he said about vaccines one time. It's actually kind of weird that you're so upset about what one Democrat thinks about vaccines. You can do whatever you want with your body. You can do whatever you want with your kid's body. Your doctor can decide with you what to do with your body. What does it have to do with RFK Jr? Thank you for advocating for Roe. You can do whatever you want with your kid's body.

I just want that to like sit for a second. These people are so fucking outrageous in the way that they just speak. And they're like, why are you so upset about vaccine? Because again, over a million people died. That's why. Like, you should be concerned about it. And unfortunately, half of this population can't do whatever they want with their bodies. Because you're a fucking network.

And the people that they put on there and the policies that they lift up. Oh, the way that he was fucking mansplained. to her. I would a whole, oh my God, you know, but you get what you sign up for. I would love to see him talk to you that way. I would love it. I would love it. Nothing would make me happier than to see that. I would love it. Look, I like Jessica. She's a really good person and I don't know how she does what she does. And yes, he's the dumbest person on cable news and he showed it there. This also does get to a thing, though, where conservatives don't believe in the concept of public health. It baffles them. The idea that why you not getting a vaccine doesn't just affect you.

It's like the easiest thing in the world to understand, and it's the easiest thing in the world to explain, but they can't fathom it. They absolutely can't fathom it. So they have to frame it as this, you know, personal choice. It's called public health and not private health for a reason. because we are all interconnected. And I was just about to explain it. And I realized, why am I doing that? Everyone listening to this knows what public health is and understands why it's incredibly important. I mean, he's just dumb, but he is also, like, there's no separation there.

He doesn't say it well, but there's no separation there between what he believes and what conservatives at large agree, believe. I think the funniest part. as he's talking over during it, but she says, you're making a great argument for Roe. I know. She said that a bunch of times, yeah. Mm-hmm. And it really is hilarious because that's just totally fucking lost on these people, just as it's lost on the Rand Pauls, that when they talk about small government and then having a million police make sure a baby is carried a term, it's not really adding up with their views. Yeah, they don't care. So I'm going to try to go out with a fun one instead of the other horrible.

ones I had in here. So in this show, we've heard Donald Trump bullshit. In fact, last week, we hit peak bullshit, I thought. But I got to admire the guy here, because he not only does he bullshit here, he makes the term the artful Dodger,

the real art that he's good at, because we all know it's not a fucking deal that he's good at, unless it's a plea deal coming up. But this, I have to say, like, dodging a question, this should be studied. My question is, how has your faith grown since you decided in 2015 to run for president and who has mentored you in your faith

journey? Great question. Such a great question. You know, I've seen so much heartache and turmoil. I was a developer and I did other things and, you know, I had a wonderful, I had a wonderful light before all this stuff. I didn't know what a grand jury was. I didn't know what a subpoena. What is a subpoena? I had a wonderful life. I'm so glad they asked me the other day a little different question. Are you glad you did it? You had a great life. Are you glad you did it? I couldn't be more glad.

I am so happy I did it because I've made America great. We can do it again. Right now we don't. We are not a great thing. Gotten to know because of this. Evangelicals, I mean, I know so many people, and they feel so good about themselves and their family, and they base it on religion. I had never had that kind of an experience where I got to know so many. And Franklin Graham and Paula White.

I know so many people that are so incredible, religious people, and not just Christians, not just evangelicals. You know, when I look at the Catholic faith, you take a look at what, the FBI. No, but look at what the FBI is doing in Catholics. They've made them like the enemy. They've made them, it's horrible. How could a Catholic ever vote for a Democrat or a guy like Biden again

after the experience that they're going through? but I met some of the finest people that I wouldn't have had the privilege of meeting if I weren't president and they're religious leaders and they really are incredible people and every person in that audience was like what a great answer I know truly that was like follow the bouncing ball like that was so difficult like I'm like where is this going? How has your faith changed and been deep in during your journey? I know a lot of religious people. What's his response? If you asked students to diagram that sentence on an AP English test, they'd fail. They would all get a one on the test. Yeah. You know, I used to, especially during George Bush, I really wanted an atheist president. Then I got one in Donald Trump, but I really regretted up.

Yeah. But he hides it well. Yeah. All right. Now we're on vacation, hopefully. Folks, I am very happy to welcome to the new abnormal. Amanda Marie Martinez, who is a historian and postdoctoral fellow at UNC Chapel Hill. And Amanda, you wrote, as many have over the past few weeks, country,

artist, Jason Aldean's very controversial, in my humble opinion, very disgusting song, try that in a small town. What you've done, however, in your piece entitled Jason Aldean's small town is part of a long legacy with a very dark side piece at mpr.org is you bring us through the history of this type of song that, you, you bring us, through the history of the history of song that Pins suburbia against the city celebrates white supremacy is in many ways not a dog whistle, but a musical rendition of white supremacist ideology. And so I wanted to give you an opportunity to just bring us through kind of the historical setting of how Jason Aldeen's song is just fruit from a very spoiled tree.

Sure. Yeah. So my intention with the piece was really to show how this new Jason Aldean song is not really an aberration in country music's history, but really part of a long evolution. So if you look at the roots of country music, it's a marketing category that's existed for 100 years. It was invented in the early to mid-1920s. And record executives were kind of looking for new markets for popular music and they looked towards the U.S. South. It invented two marketing categories. On one side, you had hillbilly and old-time music, as it was first called, which was intended for white rural Southerners. And on the flip side, you had quote-unquote race music, which was intended for black Southerners. I'll add oftentimes Southerners, regardless of race, listened to and enjoyed and played the same music, regardless of race. But when the record companies came in, they created this kind of artificial color line. And when they did so, it was very much rooted in a kind of racialized, imagined white past, right? So a lot of these early country songs, like many

popular music songs actually at the time, were minstrel tunes commonly performed in blackface. For one example, one of the first country records recorded, often celebrated as such, a song by Fiddle and John Carson called The Little Old Log Cabin in the Rain, recorded in 1923, which was sung by this artist who was a white man, but really with the perspective, a former slave, right? It was commonly performed in blackface, and it was sung from this perspective of a slave who longed for a pre-imansipation past. Oh, so basically what Ron DeSantis is trying to Institute in the State of Florida with their history curriculum. Please continue. Yes. Those were the kind of roots that country music was built upon, right? And of course,

it evolved over time by the 1950s, 1960s, a lot of these original country music kind of targeted listeners, these white rural listeners, were achieving social mobility within this context of the post-World War II, a booming economy, right? The ability to buy. suburban homes for white families through things like the GI Bill. So increasingly, you had this kind of rise of a new type of anti-city song. Oftentimes, it just longed for a lost rural life. But by the 1960s, as you started to see these kind of social protests calling for greater racial equality, also, you know, feminism, anti-war protests within the context of the 60s, you started to see new kind of country music songs that were anti-city and explicitly kind of attacking

these social protests in a lot of similar ways that we see Jason Aldine doing today with try that in a small town as a kind of explicit attack really on Black Lives Matter protests. But in the context of the 60s, no song best personified this trend than Merle Haggard's Oki from the Skogi, which came out in 1960. and was a huge, huge hit. It attacked people who were anti-war protesters and other kind of college protests more generally and just cities in general, particularly places like San Francisco. The president of Richard Nixon kind of capitalized on this. He identified country music listeners as kind of conservative voters, right? He saw his voters and country listeners as kind of

the same demographic. So I think that we can draw a lot of parallels. Those are just two examples over time that kind of show us how country music has often capitalized on oftentimes a kind of far-right conservative ethos. And it's a marketing ploy that works very well for them. And I will add that I don't think these types of songs should completely personify country music because, of course, country music was built on a very racially diverse mix of influences, and there have always been country artists from all walks of life across race, class, region. Country music has always had diverse appeal, but the business side of it has always capitalized on using country music to express or capitalize on a kind of far-right conservative ethos. So,

basically, I've never liked country music for a lot of the reasons that you just articulated about the roots of country music. Now, I will say that over the last few years, I have witnessed from the outside because I follow culture and how culture moves that much like other industries, there has been a diversification that has happened by virtue of who is making and selling country music. You've seen, at different concerts and awards and what have you, the makeup is not wholly what it was 30 years ago, which was largely white, probably in somewhat middle age range people. But I think that what's important to note what you laid out is that the roots of country music and its founding and the business behind it has been racist. And it has been about perpetuating racism and racist stereotypes. types that are rooted in Confederate, racist culture. And I think that when we look at a Jason Aldeen, who we would like to believe operates outside of the norm, your piece illuminated for me,

which I, you know, had known is that this is not outside of the norm for country music. It is part for the course. And throughout different moments, we have seen certain artists like a Garth Brooks, like a Dolly Parton, stand up for marginalized communities, whether it be black people, whether it be queer people. We've seen that formerly known as a Dixie Chicks, now the chicks, be essentially outcast from country music for their political stances. And so while I would like to believe that there has been a shift over the last couple of years, and not even a shift, but more of an opening, let's say a cracking open, people who have voiced their different views, political views, and vantage points are oftentimes met with racism. I can think about

Beyonce performing with the chicks and the controversy that that caused, and that was only a couple of years ago. And so why do you think that it's important, Amanda, to kind of walk us through this kind of history for us to understand that Jason Aldine is not the cause. He's a symptom of a larger problem and issue. Absolutely. And I think you just really nailed it there. He is a symptom of a larger issue. And I want to just push back on one kind of framing that you brought up, this idea that, and I think it's a common perception, right, that country music is starting to see more artists from different walks of life. And I just want to emphasize that there have always been artists of color, particularly black artists who have been trying to make it in country music. And in a way,

I don't think that this moment that we're in, where we're having more and more conversations about pushing for racial diversity in country music, that this has happened before, right? So in the 90s, this was absolutely, there was a push, right? In 1995, an artist named Clee Francis, along with Rinky Staten started the Black Country Music Association to push for this community for black artists in country music. In the 1970s, there was a lot of talk about making country music more racially diverse, more inclusive. So that is something that I just want to emphasize. I think social media has changed our perceptions about a lot of things. But you asked, why aren't more people speaking out? I actually want to go back to the pushback because I appreciate that. And you're right. It is because of

the presence of social media and the ability to see more, right, outside of your own community, outside of your own genres of music that you listen to, that I have more of a window into what has been happening as of late, because it is not a genre of music that I normally pay attention to what is moving and happening on the inside. I respect that. The question is, why do you think that it is important for us to understand that Jason Aldeen is not the cause, but a symptom of something greater that we are witnessing? And why is that important to call out? I think it's important to call out what's going on with Jason Al Dean and to see it as kind of a larger symptom, to see that it's not limited to one individual. And I think a lot of people are really

targeting Jason Aldean on a personal level. But I think it's a lot of people. But I think it's important for us to understand that the country music business, which is centralized in Nashville, is a very well-oiled machine. It's not just Jason Aldeen saying, hey, I want to release this song. He didn't have a role in writing the song, right? There were four songwriters behind the song, his record label, his management. This is a system with a lot of players, right? And, And the fact that no one kind of stepped in with this song, particularly after news came out that this was recorded at the Marri County Courthouse, where of course, among other things, a high-profile lynching occurred in 1927. No one thought to step in and say, hey, this is maybe a bad idea, right? And even though this moment is getting pushback, Jason Aldean's song has shot to the top of the charts.

It's number two on the country charts at this moment, and it really echoes moments over the past couple years with one of the other biggest stars in country music, which is Morgan Wallen, who in the most infamous example, uttered a racial slur, you know, faced similar pushback, but then his songs, his albums shot to the top of the country music charts, and they have firmly stayed there. He's got the number one album in country music. So I think, for the business, they see that this is a very lucrative tactic, right, where they're just going to ride with it. And they have really no business incentive to deviate from what they're doing because it's selling so well. This is the country music version of Donald Trump, Ron DeSantis,

and Greg Abbott, in my humble opinion, which is playing to your base. If you know that your base is filled with white evangelical Christians that subscribe, to and elevate and celebrate a racist white supremacist ideology, then you have no reason to move away from that base, right? Because where are you going? They're your audience. And so I look at this and I say to myself, I'm not shocked that that Aldine's song is now number two in country music, because this is where this country is. I think that what is really sad and depressing is that that I thought, and you know, the question for you is, did you think at some point in time that that kind of musical accompaniment to racist ideology was pushed to the margins,

where these people at one time, maybe it was, you know, 12 years ago, 15 years ago, would not have put out a song like this because they would have been dropped, right? there would have been companies and advertisers and pulled from the radio and what have you. And now we're in a place where if a radio station were to do this, if a place is going to be doing this, then they're attacked by the right for being quote unquote woke. Right. Yeah. And I think that, you know, this just really reflects how, and we can go back and bring up these

historical examples, country music for so long has absolutely reflected and evolved alongside whatever kind of mainstream conservatism looks like, right? And we're seeing that in this song. Yeah, and that's, I mean, and that's the thing. I don't know what would. And I guess that's the question for you is, what would change the business of country music if the business of country music

is pretty much the business of the Republican Party, right? Which is to provide a space in place for white grievance, to admonish anything that does not center, you know, whiteness, and to continue to perpetuate these lies about rural versus suburban versus urban, when in fact, if you look at the opioid crisis and where those things are happening, it is deeply set in rural and suburban areas, right? And so, but we don't have those conversations or who's living below the poverty line. Like, we don't have those conversations or where is domestic violence incredibly high. I'm just wondering, how does one go about shifting

this business if this is who the audience is. Right. I hate to be a downer about country music, but it's big business for them and they really have no reason to change things, right? Because it's not like we're talking about a charity or, you know, this is a business where the goal is to make money and they're doing that very, very well. But I think that, you know, things that, you know, maybe I can point to is, or just thinking about the role of social media, it is a double-edged sword on the the one hand, we do see how someone like, particularly Jason Aldeen's wife, Brittany Al Dean, is, you know, an influencer on Instagram and has her own following and drums up,

you know, the far right base on there. But on the flip side, you do have things emerging over the last few years, like two years ago, Holly G. started the Black Opry, which is a kind of home for Black country music fans and artists, right? And she's all. also created opportunities for these artists to start touring, right? So I do see moments of hope for country music, but it's not coming from the kind of mainstream country music business, right? I have no faith in them making decisions to change because they have no incentive to. But I think that there is an opportunity to build something more kind of organic from the ground up that is black run such as the black arpary, such as there's an artist, Resey Palmer, who's got a radio show

on Apple Radio called Color Me Country that highlights black, Latinx, and indigenous women of the present and past of country music. There is hope, but it's coming from the ground up. Yeah, and look, and I think that for people who are listening, you know, to this show who are country music fans, I think that you've just laid out people and organizations that they can support that don't feed into that are trying to operate outside of the white supremac industrial complex that is very much distinctive in country music. And I think that what you've presented is an opportunity for people to think outside of that box and find artists that relate to their truth in a way that is really needed at this time that somebody like him, Aldeen is being elevated. So Amanda, really appreciate you making the time to join the new abnormal folks. The article at npr.org is Jason Aldeen's small town.

It's part of a long legacy with a very dark side. And you should check it out. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of the new abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend and keep the conversation going. This podcast is a Daily Beast production. with production by Jesse Cannon and Seamus Calder. Want more great listens?

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