The Daily Beast Podcast - The Dirty Little Gun Secret Behind MAGA World’s Migrant Hysteria

Episode Date: April 14, 2024

For all of Donald Trump’s incessant fear-mongering about migrants fueling crime in the United States, he has yet to ask one very important question: What is driving the violence that is making so many on the other side of the border desperate to flee in the first place? That’s the question The New Abnormal team posed to Ieva Jusionyte, author of Exit Wounds: How America's Guns Fuel Violence across the Border, on this Sunday’s episode—and his answer might not sit well with team MAGA. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Kedinan, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. Hello and welcome to another Sunday bonus episode of The New Abnormal.

And we thank you so much for being here. Today we have an extra special guest with anthropologist and associate professor at Brown University, Yvah Jassanit, who's here to tell us about her new book, Exit Wounds, how America's guns fuel violence across the border. But first, let's have some fun. Are you guys ready to listen to some clips? Clips. Clip. So on Monday's episode, we discussed Mr. Trump's abortion stance,

aka him looking to try to save his campaign. After doing what he loves to do and he tried to muddy the waters and all that fun stuff that he's constantly, constantly doing. Well, as we've discussed many times, Mago always has the quiet part out loud, and his buddy Newt Gingrich is not going to do him any favors here as he's on Fox News. The right to life leaders understand exactly what President Trump's trying to do.

He is trying to reach a largest possible number of babies saved. He's trying to create the best possible environment in the current culture and in the current laws. And he's doing it in a way, which is extraordinarily pro-life without alienating people with the kind of fear-mongering the Democrats have. I thought what he did, his statement was exactly right. And I think people read it carefully and think about it. We are a country that has to have this conversation. I personally, and as you know, Colissa, is very deeply committed to life. I personally would like to have the fewest possible abortions, period.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. He's so committed to life. They're so committed to life. They vote against, I don't know, maternal care, parental leave, the child tax credit, feeding children in this country. Miss me with the bullshit. please? I mean, New Kingrich is...

Very handsome, good-looking, I know, Andy, I know. Sure, that's exactly where I was going with this. You've learned to know me so well over these past 17 years. Yes. And it is just incredible. New Kingrich is someone who, if he hasn't, I don't know if he's come out publicly in favor of a federal abortion ban, but he absolutely would be comfortable with it. And yes, he is telling you that he liked what Donald Trump said.

Sure, that's not a surprise. as we discussed, Donald Trump can pretend he's not in favor of a federal abortion ban all he wants, but we all know that he would, you know, in office, he would totally cout to the evangelical right because that really is the group that that's the one group that will stick by him without fail. And he will do whatever it is they want to do. So the fact that Newt Gingrich is saying he liked what Donald Trump had to say, is A, not a shock, and B, exposes Donald Trump for exactly what he is on us. You know what I think of as the man who's definitely trying to save as many babies as possible

is the guy who said to Howard Stern that he told the mother of one of his children to go get it taken care of. Wow. Yeah, sorry, Tiffany. I'm sure that's very much. Oh, God. Lawrence O'Donnell played it on his show this week. Fun stuff.

But, yes, that's definitely a man who is trying to make sure as many babies as possible are saved. Yeah, I just wanted to find this. Duke Ingridge in 2012 asked if he would make exceptions to abortion for rape and incest. And he said, no, I wouldn't make exceptions. So not a shock that he liked what Donald Trump had to say. Yikes. Well, on this podcast, we continually have to point out that one of Trump's top campaign advisors is one Charlie Kirk, who, let's just say, says a lot of things that in any other time would have you booted so fast. from any other campaign in the history of this country except the Trump campaign. Here he is talking to Bishop Aubrey Shines, and unlike Newt, the mask isn't going to slip. The hood's going to slip. Let's look at it historically.

When Japanese Americans were singled out, there was some sort of correction publicly that had been made. I have Jewish ancestry. They were singled out. there was some form of reparation that was made. Now, I want to make this just abundantly clear. I don't believe that anyone should receive anything that they didn't earn.

I just, I believe it's unchristian. I believe, that would be like you committing a crime against me, I don't get you for it, but five generations later, yes. Someone comes and says to your great, great, great grandkids, you owe me. Well, that's absurd. It's morally sick. It's not biblical.

Think about this. How do I charge you for something 100 years later that you didn't do? And if we want to go further on the whole reparation thing, not you and I, but I'm just saying publicly speaking, shouldn't then, if we're honest, intellectually honest, then why don't blacks charge kings to this day in Africa who sold them? See, there's this misnomer. A bunch of white guys, I don't know, out of Mississippi, Arkansas got on their little paddle boats, went across the Atlantic and got over into Africa and rounded up 25 million black people. That's stupid.

It's not even history. It was black kings selling other blacks that they had conquered. They were selling them from everything from tobacco and a whole lot of other things, alcohol beverages, various products they were selling. And they were merchandised them. So if blacks are really, interested in reparation, then go to Africa. I know I'm going to take a lot of feedback, but if we're going to be intellectually honest...

I said that once I got so criticized. Well, I say it all the time. I just want to start with the idea that where he said that it's unbiblical. I kind of feel like that would come to a shock to people who believe in original sin. And also, I believe the phrase, the sins of the father is from the Old Testament. and refers to people inheriting the judgment of the sins of their ancestors. So, A, it's not unbiblical. It's actually very biblical.

So in addition to all the other garbage that was spewed there, I just for some reason I felt like I should point. I don't want people who do not showcase any type of intellect to use the phrase intellectual dishonesty. Can we just start there? And, you know, I believe that Jesse chose this as an attack on my piece and well-being. And it's like, hey, Danielle, the weekend is coming. Let me disrupt your fucking peace by making you listen to these two fucking racist.

I just want to say in my defense very fast, I regularly pull some of the worst stuff to just not do that. This is just, sadly, the mid-level of the barrel. And that is what is sick. This is mid-level. Like, this is okay gutter shit. The fact is that these type of white Christian nationalist men do not want to take responsibility for anything. That is their emo. They are the grievance kings.

Everything has happened to them. They have done nothing except be good, god-faring white Christian men. And woe is them. that the world around them has changed. Woe is them that their ancestors kept my ancestors in bondage for 400 years and then perpetuated policies for the entirety of America's existence that would subjugate a population of people to less than second-class citizens. Right?

These are the same people that when George Floyd was murdered were putting up videos mocking his death and saying that he deserved it. Give me a fucking break on your intellectual dishonesty. There is nothing intellectual about what they offer, but everything that they do say is fucking dishonest and reprehensible. Ugh, I'm done. Fuck those guys. To your point, he was just announced that he's now partnering with Candace Owens for a lecture,

who is the number one disinformation person around George Floyd. So there you have it. Amazing. Yeah. And for those people that want to give Candice Owens room for her rehabilitation, I'm a white supremacist handmaids tour. Go fuck yourself. Okay?

Strong agree. So thought leader dash host of this podcast, Andy Levy, many years ago. Wow. Wow. Proclaimed Jesse Waters, the dumbest fan of cable news. Well, I think the world finally caught up to Andy's thought leadership this week after this clip went viral. Uh-oh. You're making $20 an hour to work at a fast food restaurant, right?

Is that six figures? Are you making... No, no. 40 grand. 50 is just to exit and out a few zeros. Okay, so. 40K a year. Okay, 40K year. So, and then if your husband or wife is also there, you're making $100,000 as a family.

Sure. Both working at McDonald's? 80 grand. Okay, that's crazy. That is crazy because that job really doesn't require much. So it's inflating the entire, you know, labor sector. And the happy meal. Unhappy, very unhappy.

Which I'm very unhappy about. What? Uh. So he doesn't math, right? Like, he doesn't, he doesn't do math. But also, where in America are you living where $100,000 combined, if you're lucky, let's say for a family of four, is somehow rolling in the dough in his eyes? Like, I'm just like trying to make this, his calculations make sense.

What he's saying is that people who work in the fast food industry should be living in poverty. That is basically his argument, that you shouldn't have a living wage and you shouldn't be able to cobble together rent or a mortgage or food or medicine and shell. Like that you should be struggling because you work in the food service industry. Did I get that right? You got it right. The other side of his mouth, though, all it does on his stupid fucking show is say, no one can afford to live in Biden's America. Yeah, no, that's a great point.

Although I'll tell you what, Jesse Waters can afford to live in Biden's America. Oh, yeah. And if you want to talk about people who are overpaid, you could start with him. You sure could. I don't know what he makes a year, but I am sure it's well into the seven figures. I saw the five million figure being floated in the replies to that. That's insane. You talk about throwing a whole industry out of whack, the idea that one of the five,

dumbest people in America is making $5 million a year to talk on television is absolutely insane. And, you know, he doesn't even understand that doubling $40,000 is $80,000, not $100,000. And that is, I'm not a math whiz, but that's pretty basic arithmetic. Well, speaking of the dumbest people in America, we're now going to move to a clip from the five where there's four of the dumbest people of America on it. I don't know how much Thursday analyzed in this clip, but Jessica Tarlov here talking to Judge Box of Wine, Piro, is going to be what the kids say is a whole last vibe. This, you know a lot of Trump supporters. Do we need to be programmed?

Be careful. That's why I come to work every day. I mean, you know, I've talked about Jessica Tarlov before. I like her. I think she's great. I don't know how she does it every day. And Danielle, you've talked a lot about the cultish nature of these people. And I just, there are some people who can be, quote, unquote, deprogrammed.

There are some people who can't be, and she is sitting at a table with people who can't be. You know, somebody, and I forget who it was recently, that was talking about Jim Jones versus Donald Trump. And the meme, which was funny, was like, the difference between the two of them is that Trump would have charged you for the Kool-Aid. Yes, I like that one, too. But there is a difference between people who are actually, like, following cult leadership that fall. for it that are brainwashed. I actually don't think that Trump supporters are brainwashed. Like, I don't think that these people need to. They know exactly what it is that they're doing. They have access to information. They haven't been taken away from their families. They haven't been, you know,

put inside of a small camp where they have to all wear the same outfits and they all listen to the same stories and they have no access to the outside world. So this is a choice that they, an active choice that they are making. So, you know, can they be deprogram? No, I don't, because I don't think that they are actually programmed. They've made an active decision to be a part of Trump world, to be an active player on Earth too. So I don't know if, I don't think you can deprogram them. But God willing, you know, God bless those that try. I think that's true of a lot of the MAGA people. I do think that for some of the MAGA people, and I don't know what percentage. And look, I think they've made an active to do things like only watch Fox News and only get their information from certain sources. So yes,

in that sense, it's their own fault. But they're also being, because the ironic thing about that question being asked on Fox News is that Fox News is those people are part of the programmers. Like, they're the ones doing the programming for the Trump Colt. And they have absolutely no problem going on air and routinely saying things that aren't true. And everything in the service of furthering Trump and furthering Maga World. And I do think there are people who are just taken in by that because stupidly they trust Fox News and stupidly, you know, they trust, I don't know whether it's the Federalist or the Daily Wire or wherever they're getting their news, quote-unquote news. I mean, deprogramming is a harsh term. But I think there's a segment for whom all hope is not lost.

And, you know, I don't know that they'll ever. be able to break free of it. But I guess that's where I, I differ at least slightly from you, Daniel. Okay. And that's why we call him thought leader Andy Levy. Mm-mm. Can I just say, as of the end of this recording, Trump's stock is currently at $33.

So it was that. Folks, I am very happy to welcome to the new ab normal. Anthropologist and associate professor at Brown University. Eva Yusanite, who is also the author of Exit Wounds, How America's Guns Fuel Violence Across the Border. Yovah, I want to give you an opportunity to explain to our listeners why you decided to do a kind of, I guess, in how we look at Mexico or how the media looks at Mexico and how administrations past have looked at Mexico. Mexico is the problem. That is how the scene has been set. What your book does, however, is show the problem of guns and gun proliferation that America brings to Mexico.

How did that narrative and conversation happen for you in the writing of this book? Well, first of all, really thank you very much for having me. So yes, when we are talking about Mexico, especially in the public sphere, in the media, in politics, it is that country where there is violence, whether there are cartels and narcos, and God forbid they will bring people who are coming here, asylum seekers or migrants who we are seeing at the border. God forbid they would bring that violence to us, to our country. And that is such a limited view because that violence, the tools of that violence are actually manufactured. imported and sold in the United States. Most of the guns in Mexico found in crime scenes used by organized crime groups are from the United States. Mexico has very strict gun laws. So I was working on the border both as an anthropologist and as an emergency responder, paramedic and EMT, and I was meeting these people who were fleeing for their lives and risking their lives to cross the U.S.-Mexico border. And at some point I started asking questions. So how is that?

this violence happening. And I realized that while the guns are actually sold in these stores in Arizona where I was living back then, so I decided I want to follow the guns in the opposite direction. We focus on these flows north, both drugs and migrants, asylum seekers, but we are kind of oblivious to what is going in the opposite direction to make the flows of these drugs as well as the flight of people possible. For the last several years, and I think that primarily under the Trump administration, there was a narrative that was created and spun by Donald Trump and Republicans about how dangerous, how awful people of Mexican descent are. Donald Trump famously said, as he was running for president the first time Mexico sends over rapists and drug dealers and drug addicts. And from there, created this entire spin of invasion.

And I think that what is really interesting about your book is we never ask ourselves in the United States why people are fleeing their countries in the first place and what role the United States had in the destabilization of their countries. So can you speak to the people that you talk to that were crossing the border and just what you've discovered. over the course of the research for your book, that shift in perspective that your book offers about America's role in destabilizing Mexico. So a lot of people I was meeting, well, first of all, a lot of them are and have been for many years Mexicans. So yes, these days we are seeing migrants from all over the world,

from Venezuela and from Haiti. Well, actually American guns play a huge role in what? happening in Haiti as well. But I was seeing Mexicans. And those Mexicans from places like Guerrero were saying that they had nothing else to do. They were criminal groups who would come to their houses or their little businesses that they have or their farmlands and ask for extortion money. And once they could not pay the extortion, they had to flee because they started kidnapping

family members, they started forcefully recruiting children. So people just packed whatever they could and ran towards safety. The other thing I think is extremely important is that so these guns, like how do they get to Mexico or to these organized crime groups? Well, it all begins with people who are Americans, people who are U.S. citizens or at least permanent residents because no one else is allowed to buy guns in the United States. So these so-called straw buyers, the very first people who buy the guns and then pass them to the smugglers, they are very much Americans. So this is like we are implicated as Americans in whatever is happening on the other side of the border.

Why don't you think that we tell this story? You know, because I honestly, the reason why I was excited to talk to you was because I've never heard this story. Because the only story that we ever get to hear about America is Americans, because I'm. being the quote unquote heroes. You know, oh, we're trying to stop the problem. And yet we create many problems abroad that we never know are never told about here. Yes, yes. We do create a lot of problems.

Well, one reason we are not talking about that is because it is politically more expedient to talk about drugs or about migrants. Then you can say, oh, we'll increase border policing and security and build this wall. Talking about guns, even in this country, it is a very touchy subject and very politically controversial one. The agency like ATF, which is the main agency that's kind of oversees the gun industry and all the violation of federal firearms laws, they are one of the least resourceful agencies in the U.S. government. And so it is like we don't want to talk about it because we know it won't lead us anywhere. and one of the major sources of these guns in Mexico

are specifically states that have very, very lags gun regulations. So Texas is the primary one between 2017 and 2021. There are 43% of all guns recovered in crime scenes in Mexico came from Texas alone. They have thousands of licensed gun dealerships. And then there are gun shows and there are private sales, internet sales. So it's very different.

In some parts of the country, we kind of have stricter gun laws, but in others, not. And the conversation on the federal level about anything related to gun regulation is just very much a non-starter. 43 percent? Yes, at least. That is obscene. It is. And the other 17 percent come from Arizona and 13 percent come from California. but also guns go to Mexico from states quite far away from the border, including Connecticut and Massachusetts.

What do Mexico's gun laws look like? Because if they're not manufacturing at the level that we are, how are people so readily able to cross the border into the U.S., go to these shows or outside of these shows? Because we know that the gun shows in those states are not regulated. Oh, people may not be able to go into a venue, but people are selling guns out of their cars where you don't need any paperwork or any of these things. And so what are Mexico's gun laws look like and what does the regulation or lack thereof look like that permits this type of influx? Mexico has very strict gun laws. Since the 1970s, they have this law that basically allows civilians to have up to 10 guns, only one pistol and maybe nine rifles or shotguns, only for people who,

meet a lot of requirements, belong to gun clubs. They have to register the firearms every year. And they also have very limited type of weapons that people can own. So most AR-15 varieties, AK-47 varieties, is semi-automatic rifles or even pistols of larger calibers. They are designated for the use of only the military forces and the police. Regular Mexicans cannot have them. However, it is very easy for them to cross in the United States where there are all these networks, there are WhatsApp groups that help you buy guns and there are like your cousin can help you buy a gun. The problem with the U.S.-Mexico border is that most of the U.S. focus is, again, on what's

coming north. So we have Customs and Border Protection is a huge agency. And getting into the United States, your cars get checked for drugs. there are dogs, your documents get checked. But almost nobody checks southbound flow. So people who are leaving for Mexico, they're very rarely, very randomly inspected in the US and also randomly only occasionally inspected by Mexican authorities.

So it is very, very easy to take guns to Mexico like hidden under your clothes or under sheetrock construction materials, depending whether you are just bringing, one pistol for yourself or whether you are taking like dozens of semi-automatic rifles for organized crime. But those get through the ports of entry easily. I mean, Yeva, is it fair to say that basically for Mexico that the United States is their number one arms dealer? Oh, absolutely. There is no question. It actually has been quite quite long time because Mexico doesn't really have their own firearms industry. They started recently manufacturing these guns for their military,

but not for civilian use, these rifles. But historically, they have always relied on the United States. You can think about the Mexican Revolution, which was very much thought with like Winchester's and Remington's and Colts that were also smuggled from the United States for various factions of the Mexican Revolution. So this is not new. What's new is that organized crime groups have really become more powerful because they enrich themselves from selling drugs to the United States. And so they built better arsenals. And the United States began manufacturing and selling more powerful weapons. So this kind of, there is a historical trajectory, but it intensified the effects of this American firepower in Mexico only recently.

Mexico also buys guns legally from the United States for its own military and police forces. But for that, actually, Mexico buys more European guns. So from Italy and Austria and Germany specifically, also Israel. So U.S. is not the main supplier of legal guns, but it is an absolutely major supplier of all illegal guns. Go on this walk with me. So the United States is the number one arms dealer for Mexico, arming the cartels, arming the organized crime that is the cause of people fleeing the country and coming into the United States. Am I wrong?

You are correct. So if in fact we wanted as a country to find a way to limit to stop to reverse the influx of migrants from Mexico, would it not then behoove us to, oh, I don't know, stop the sales of guns into the country that is creating the violence that people are fleeing from in the first damn place? Oh, bingo. Yes, it would. Not only guns, I think it's very important also to think about ammunition. Right. Because guns that are already in Mexico, they will last many years, but they need to replenish ammunition all the time. And ammunition sales is even less regulated in the United States.

You can buy truckloads of ammunition without any paperwork. This just doesn't seem like rocket science to me. Every administration, whether Republicans who create draconian disgusting policies that dehumanize migrants that are coming into this country, or whether it's a Democratic administration that will. still deport the same amount of people back to these destabilized countries. In every single one of the talking points and conversations that are had, it is always about the people that are coming being the problem. It is never about what is the cause of the problem. In your view and in your research, how do we change then, shift the narrative, which is not about the people being

the problem, but about addressing the actual problem, which is what is contributing to the destabilization and the increase in violence and what role do we have in it? That's super important. It's a vicious circle of violence, right? So the problem is that the solution is not so straightforward. So yes, we could kind of shut off the cap of firepower from the United States to Mexico, but it would still make many years for the situation to improve. So I think we need to tackle many issues at the same time. We need to tackle drug addiction in the United States. We need to tackle organized crime groups in Mexico and create like the Mexican government has to work on rebuilding its criminal justice system, on finding other

alternatives for youth so they would not be recruited to these organized crime groups. At the same time, yes, if we stop allowing people to buy this powerful ammunition like the AK-47 rounds or others, fewer police officers would be dying in Mexico, and then maybe they would be able to protect their community. So then people would not be packing and fleeing to the United States. So the solution has to happen on both sides of the border. It is a binational or a regional problem, which is with most illicit economies, because what's wanted on one side and provided from the other, you cannot see.

solve it by just addressing the supply side. You also need to address the demand side. It's wild to me that in every conversation that I think that I've heard and people that I have interviewed about the crisis, you know, of our immigration system, it has never been about what the cause of the problem is. And I really think that what is critical about your book is the responsibility that the United States has had in creating the violence in these countries. I guess I'm in a place of like shock at the fact that I'm not saying that the issue is easy to solve, but if you continue to not look at the crux of the problem, you'll never solve the issue. That's right. So I am really grateful that you are paying attention to this issue. With your book, what are your hopes for people that are

reading this book for the conversations that can be sparked from the research that you've done. Thank you for that question. So I think maybe it is especially important this year with election coming up and this conversation of unblaming and demonizing Mexico and migrants intensifying. I think it is critical for us to understand how the U.S. contributes to this problem, that then we think that by increasing border security we will solve, although we have to look for other ways to solve it. But I think also kind of very important message is that we need to understand what does it mean? How do these guns from the United States get to Mexico? And who are these people in Mexico who pick them up? And what do they do with them? And how do they create these

repercussions that then we feel by meeting these huge groups of people at the border fleeing from violence. So kind of the book is very much about following the stories of these people who sell guns, buy guns, and use guns, and then we feel the effects. Yeah, it is, as you've stated, a extraordinarily vicious cycle that I do believe could be broken if we were to to do exactly what you said, look at the suppliers and look at the demand, that it can't just be one group, one country's problem, that it is, as you said, a binational problem that was created. Yeah, but I really appreciate you making time to join the new abnormal. Folks, the book is called Exit Wounds, How America's Guns Fuel Violence Across the Border. It is a must read in a conversation that is surely to

continue heating up as the election gets closer. Really appreciate you and your time. Thank you so much. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of The New Abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend and keep the conversation going. This podcast is a Daily Beast production with production by Jesse Cannon and Seamus Calder. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts.

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