The Daily Beast Podcast - The Harshest Punishment Paul Gosar Could Get for Jan. 6 w/ Hunter Walker

Episode Date: October 26, 2021

Paul Gosar has been basically caught red-handed when it comes to Jan. 6 meddling. So what’s next? Reporter Hunter Walker, who authored the bombshell report about Gosar promising rioters “pardons,��� came on the podcast to talk about how he got his big scoops and the worst thing that could happen to Gosar. Plus, David Pepper, author of “Laboratories of Autocracy: A Wake Up Call from Behind the Lines” tells Molly how Republicans in state houses (like his home state of Ohio) are all slowly burning our democracy to the ground. But not if we do this first. If you haven't heard, every single week The New Abnormal does a special bonus episode for Beast Inside, the Daily Beast’s membership program. where Sometimes we interview Senators like Cory Booker or the folks who explain our world in media like Jim Acosta or Soledad O’Brien. Sometimes we just have fun and talk to our favorite comedians and actors like Busy Phillips or Billy Eichner and sometimes it's just discussing the fuckery. You can get all of our episodes in your favorite podcast app of choice by becoming a Beast Inside member where you’ll support The Beast’s fearless journalism. Plus! You’ll also get full access to podcasts and articles. To become a member head to newabnormal.thedailybeast.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Molly Jong-Fast and welcome to The Daily Beast, The New Abnormal. I'm a left-wing pundit and an editor-at-large at The Daily Beast. We're here to have fun, sharp conversations with some of the smartest people in media, politics, and science that help make what's happening in the country and the world clearer. Our world has been turned up day down. On the new abnormal, we'll talk about the people who got us into this mess and figure out how to get ourselves out of it. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon. I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails.

We have a super fun show today. First, we're going to talk to David Pepper, who's a former chairman of the Ohio Democratic Party and the author of the book, Laboratories of Autocracy, a wake-up call from behind the lines. But first, we're going to talk to her the writer of the uprising substack about his latest piece in Rolling Stone, that's blockbuster story on the planning of the January 6th insurrection, Hunter Walker. Welcome to the new abnormal, Hunter Walker. I feel like that's been every day of my life the past couple years. How are you guys doing?

You know, we survive. So we're killing it. We want to talk to you about your amazing reporting and the excitement that happened at the Willard Hotel. This was a big scoop. It was in Rolling Stone. Tell us what was the thing that most surprised you? So I think the biggest piece of new information in this story is that, The allegation from two sources who I have confirmed were involved in planning January 6th events,

including the main rally on the White House ellipse on that day and also some of the smaller protests against the election around the country. And both of these two sources told me that Arizona Congressman Paul Gosar, Dr. Paul Gosar DDS. DDS. Not even the worst dentist in Congress, but yes, continue. offered them a quote-unquote blanket pardon in an unrelated ongoing investigation as an encouragement to get them to participate in these protests against the election. So that, you know, that's a major new piece of information, if it is correct. But, you know, I think almost more than any of these explosive allegations that these folks detailed to me. And I should say, you know, I believe they are at least credible because, you know,

They were indeed involved in the rally, and I also separately obtained documentary evidence that they were in contact with Gosar on January 6th. But more than any of the individual allegations, I mean, I think the House Select Committee is going to be in a far better position than I am to fully confirm and nail this stuff down with the sweeping records requests they've made. But the mere fact that, you know, organizers of these events, true believers in what they call the quote-unquote America First Agenda are starting to come in from the cold and cooperate with the committee and provide major new revelations like this, you know, it's just a sign that people are starting to turn against each other and the investigations are really heated. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, it seems like there's much more of that. So it's so funny because I think about Paul Gosar, and I think about Steve Kemp. wasn't as bad as Paul Gosar, right? And he was stripped of all his committee assignments, but in the new Republican Party, like, Paul Gosar has, like, basically his own caucus. You know, one thing that struck me about Paul Gosar, you know, I was at the Capitol on January 6th, and I've been really dedicated to following this story and trying not to let it go.

And so I've been watching, you know, all of the subsequent events, including the various hearings, and the multiple protests, I think they call them Justice for J6 protests, that have been staged in support of the rioters. And at all of these moments, including the hearing in July, this protest outside of the jail, even when he's with his other, I call them January 6 denialists, Paul Gosar takes things a step further. So like what we saw in July at this House hearing,

this is, I think, around when some of the other members of Congress were making these comments, It's like, oh, it was just a tourist visit. It was this and that. Then you get to Paul Gosar, and he's like, this whole thing is a conspiracy from the FBI. You know what I mean? He's the guy who mainstreamed and started getting the idea that Ashley Babbitt, the woman who was shot just outside the Senate chamber, was a martyr.

So Paul Gosar has continually been a source of some of the most extreme post-January 6th rhetoric in Congress. The million-dollar question is how much contact Paul Gosar had, Trump world. So according to one of my sources, someone I've, I only referred to these two people as the organizer and the planner, because obviously due to the fact they are cooperating witnesses and an ongoing investigation, you know, about violent crimes, I granted them anonymity. And one of them told me that, you know, Gosar had described these quote unquote blanket pardons as a quote unquote done deal and that he'd also suggested to them, quote, our impression was that it was a done deal, the organizer says, that he'd spoken to the president about it in the Oval in a meeting about pardons and that our names came up.

They were working on submitting the paperwork. So, you know, if this is correct, it goes all the way up to the president. And, you know, the committee, even though they got rid of the White House visitor logs, it's going to be in a pretty unique place to potentially substantiate some of this information because they subpoenaed records from the Trump White House. And now the Biden administration is the custodian of those records, and they're cooperating. I should also note that in part of this, quote-unquote, sweeping requests the committee made for records from a couple different executive branch agencies, they included Tom Van Flyen. Or I don't know if it's Van Flyen or Van Fleen. But he is Paul Gosar's chief of staff. I actually have seen him on Clubhouse hanging out with January 6th organizer Ali Alexander. Oh, that makes a lot of sense.

who, by the way, also said Paul Gosar was involved in planning this stuff. Yes. But Van Flyen, Van Fleen, he is the only congressional staffer that was named in the committee's requests. So, you know, they've evidently taken an interest in Gosar. And I also would just say that, you know, along with, you know, what these sources told me, this is not, you know, this is more detailing about what alleged congressional involvement looked like. But it is not the first indication that members of Congress. participated. Paul Gosar and Marjorie Taylor Green and Lauren Bobert were, all of whom,

my sources said, were involved in these briefings planning the protests. All of them were billed as speakers at Ali Alexander's quote-unquote wild protest on the Capitol steps. Madison Cawthorne and Mo Brooks, who also were allegedly involved in these briefing calls, they spoke on the ellipse with Trump. Mo Brooks! Sorry, gone, I have to say that. And we know, we know also, I mean, in this story, you know, Marjorie Taylor Green's communications director, Nick Dyer was one of the only people who responded to me. And he actually seemed to almost confirm that she was involved in planning calls because he said, quote, congressman woman Green and her staff were focused on the congressional election objection on the house floor and had nothing to do with

planning of any protest, right? So it's interesting. He's denying planning a protest, but he is saying she was involved in the objection. And the way these sources characterized it to me, you know, they said the members of Congress were sort of sharing quote-unquote evidence. Obviously, none of this was real evidence, but they were sharing evidence back and forth to be prevented, with protesters on the ground in different states. They were also advising senators who could be pressured to join the objection and suggesting, you know, that rallies behold in those people's home states. So, you know, that is, you know, the planning that may or may not have occurred, the efforts to, you know, set up the objections. And another, um, a senior Republican House staff

member also, you know, similarly seemed to at least admit that, you know, while they denied there was violence and while they denied their member took part in it, that there had been some sort of a planning call. And they said to me, you know, a whole host of people let this go a totally different way. They effed it up for a lot of people who were planning to present evidence on the House floor. We're pissed off at everything that happened. So that's one of the narratives that I heard from these sources and also from Republicans in Congress, you know, the idea that, yeah, we were kind of planning, you know, this big show to object to, you know, the electoral certification, but we're not the bad actors who made it go violent. Right. But let's talk about Lauren Bopers,

because that's a great one, too, if we're going to talk about, I mean, first of all, imagine being Lauren Bopers. Is that, was that her chief of staff? I like to, just because I'm kind of a jerk. Whenever I can, I send my press request to the chief of staff rather than the press team, because I like to go straight up there, you know. I also try to call members at home. So, but what's the different result you get from doing this technique? Well, when you get people at home, that's just the best. I love it.

I'm sure they love that. Hunter, this is some real energy vampire, Colin Robinson type of thing you got going on here. Yeah, I like to get someone on their cell phone, you know, just to talk directly. But the chief of staff, you know, oftentimes they know more. They're closer to what happened, you know, on any given story. And also they are, you know, less schooled in the art of not saying things.

So in the case of Lauren Bobert, it's just creating out a curve. But also imagine the level, right? Like, you know, you're not working in McConnell's office. You're not even working in, you know, Chuck Grassley's office. Like, what's 57 levels down from there? You're on Team Bobert. Right.

Exactly. You don't even get to work at her gun-themed Hooters knockoff shooters. Right. You don't even get to deal with me. That's right. But yeah. So anyway, so what did she say? Well, this is Jeff Small.

Oh, Jeff Small, Chief of Staff to Lauren Bobert. And he said. A job that will undoubtedly end in greatness. Looping in our press team here. I was flying when you. sent this inquiry on a Sunday. He's very offended. I mean, the Lord's Day, you know. That's right. A day you should have been shooting. Yeah, the owner of shooters, you know, never on a Sunday. And then he said, I can tell you with certainty that all of these allegations are baseless and

ridiculous. Our capital C comms team can provide a more detailed quote depending on your time frame. I received this story, this quote, after publication, this email. Having said that, this hardly seems like breaking news. Must be a slow news day. Jeff Small throw in smoke. Right. We didn't do the crime, but if we did do the crime, is it really a crime? Yeah.

We didn't do this, and you're only making this up because there's no real news. And can you tell us when you're running your story so we can maybe give you a real quote? There's a lot happening in that. But that was my comment from Jeff. And it actually reminded me, I mean, this came up the other day when I did a story. I had some leaked January 6th planning documents that had a VIP list of folks who went to the big rally on the lips. I remember from last week. Yeah, I had that on my substack.

Your substack is called The Uprising, www.theuprising.w.theuprising. info. And when I did this, one of the people on this January 6th VIP list was noted fake doctor, Sebastian Gorka. Oh, my favorite. Yes. Fake doctor, a real Nazi. And I love, I love the good doctor, because I just know, and Jeff Small really seems to come from the same school of communications, I just know that when I reach out to him, I'm going to get heat. And did he scream at you? Oh, well, he emails. But it's like, you know, it's so funny because you can tell he thinks like he's owned you. And it's like every time I get these emails, I'm like, uh-oh,

Seb Gorka wrote my kicker again. So in this case, he wrote, and I got to do it in my best Gorka because he's a Please, please, please. Yeah, we love, you get extra points on this show for impressions. And you need to know, there's missing articles in this sentence. This is, I'm reading it to exactly as it's written. I would hope. There's a little bit of strange capitalization.

and also he spelled peer. He meant like a doc, but he spelled it like a student. So just to give you a flavor. Would you go to school to be the Dragon of Budapras scrabber? Is it the first thing? And he said, take a long jump off a short pier,

you fetid propagandist of a hack. And then for good measure, in all caps, he added, blocked. I blocked from emailing him back? What does that mean? I don't know. I mean, like I guess I guess I,

I won't request a comment next time. I'd actually be really sad because, like, feed-ed propagandist of a hack. So am I the propagandist for the hack? Or are you feeded? I'm feed-ed. Yeah, I mean, with his spelling, did he mean I was fed it?

I don't even know what's going on here. Yeah, I don't know what feeded. I mean, that's amazing. That is pretty great. I love to see it. So we love these kinds, you know, it's always so funny to me when someone like fires off one of these like,

gotcha, email. And it's like, if you're cursing into my email, if you're throwing wild insults, like, you're making my days. Like, of course I'm printing that. That's wonderful. Right. No, it's amazing. I mean, that is the thing where it's like, don't respond. If you want something to die, don't respond.

The moment you respond, it just encourages us. I say this as myself. I cannot co-sign this. Please respond to me constantly. Email me, call me, get your dander up. I mean, please, just vent to me. It's okay. That's what I'm here for.

I advise everyone in government to do this, please. So as fun as this is, we're getting a little low on time, and I want to get your sense on, you're reporting out a lot of stuff that I would like to see the January 6th committee take up. Where do we see any of this going? So this is the million dollar question, isn't it? Right. We should keep in mind, as we have this discussion,

that there are two investigations. One is the January 6th House Select Committee, chaired by Benny Thompson. The other is the FBI investigation, which is with over 600 people who've been charged, the largest in the Bureau's history. And these two investigations are essentially taking opposite approaches. What I've heard from folks familiar with the FBI probe is that it's sort of taking a very traditional approach, similar to what we might see for a mob take down, where essentially they start at the bottom of the pyramid and start to roll up. So in this case, the bottom of the pyramid

are sort of the people who actually physically went into the Capitol. They have not really gone much past that yet. It's an open question whether they will do so and how long it would take. So that's sort of a very slow-moving bottom-up investigation. Meanwhile, the House Select Committee has essentially taken the opposite approach, and they're going top-down. You know, so if you look at these executive branch records requests, I mean, they're going from Mark Metta, They're going for Steve Bannon. They're going for the organizers and planners of these various events. So they're kind of starting at the top.

However, they do not have, obviously, the same criminal powers as the FBI. So, for example, with Bannon, you know, when he claimed executive privilege, despite not being a White House staffer at the time of in question, he then defied his subpoena. That was a ballsy, ballsy move right there. It was vintage, what they call it, Honey Badger, Vintage Breitbart Honey Badger. It's like, I haven't been in the executive branch for 1,100 days, but... It was kind of like a very personal concept of, like, you know, how every plane the president is on his Air Force One. For Bannon, it's like every conversation I have, like, I am a White House advisor.

I mean, I don't even know. But, you know, they did vote to do this criminal contempt referral to the DOJ. And ultimately, you know, it's the DOJ that gets to decide whether to, you know, penalize Bannon for contempt. And I should note that's, I believe, a $1,000 fine, which is nothing with Bannon's Seinfeld residuals. And I think up to a year in prison. Now, that I think is a little better. I mean, you know, it depends on what other jeopardy he might have.

He's going to potentially have a calculus to do there. He has been to jail before. They can only essentially refer these matters to the DOJ. And it's kind of the same thing. I was just on the phone with a hill person of mine. And I was asking, you know, if Gossar, did this, if it really comes out that, like, these folks are telling the truth 100% and the committee nails it to the wall, sort of like what happens? And it was amazing to me, based on this one staffer's

analysis, you know, how weak the whole thing is. So essentially, let's say the committee, you know, fully uncovers that Paul Gosar, you know, offered pardons in exchange for planning these protests. They would most likely refer that matter to the deal. to do its own investigation because the thinking is that a nonpartisan body with criminal powers, you know, should take precedence and is the best venue for it. If the DOJ then did nothing with that, which could take a long time, what would happen next is essentially they have a couple degrees of response. And the first one is a reprimand, which is essentially a strongly worded letter. That is theoretically a problem, I guess, if you're in a competitive district and have a challenger.

The next one is a censure, which is a stronger, strongly worded letter, right? And then the next one is what we saw sort of with Marjorie and with I think Steve King. It's where they strip you. Yeah. You know, when you're as focused on legislation as the January 6th caucus, you know. They don't really care. Yeah. And then the final one, which does take a two-thirds vote in Congress, is actually expelling someone.

So we've seen Democrats actually in response to. my story, say, you know, Ghost or another should be expelled. But the process for that is quite convoluted. And essentially, you know, whatever revelations start to come out of this investigation that the House Select Committee is doing, the real cards will lie with the DOJ. And if the House wants to go on its own way and sort of at least try to boot members, it needs Republican support. Right. And that seems very unlikely since they voted against even with Bannon, they were voted against confirming the subpoena, you know, enacting the subpoena again, holding Bannon in contempt of Congress, which is their body. I mean, it's completely crazy. say, Hunter, please come back.

Seriously, you were amazing. Yeah, you were really great. I really enjoyed this, and it's fun to laugh with you guys, but I do have to say, like, the reason I've really, like, tried to stick with this story is I think January 6th is an extremely, extremely serious and dangerous situation. And I really think I appreciate you guys for doing this, because I think we all really need to be paying more attention to this, because the historical analogs for, you know, the violent ransacking of Congress are all pretty dark.

And I think it has stunned me how little overall attention such a dramatic event has gotten. And, you know, I'm always happy to talk about it whenever you'll have. Hey, folks, if you haven't heard every single week we do a special bonus episode for Beast Inside, the Daily Beast membership program. Sometimes we interview senators like Corey Booker or the folks who explain what's happening behind the scenes in media, like Jim Acosta or Soledadad O'Brien. Sometimes we just have fun and talk to our favorite comedians and actors like Busy Phillips or Billy Eichner, and sometimes we just have friends around to analyze what's happening in the news.

You can get all of our episodes in your favorite podcast app of choice by becoming a beast inside member where you'll support the beast fearless journalism, as well as getting full access to podcasts and articles. To become a member, head to newabnormal.com. That's new abnormal. That the dailybeast.com. David Pepper is a former chair of the Ohio Democratic Party and the author of Laboratories of Autocracy, a wake-up call from behind the lines.

Welcome to the new abnormal, David Pepper. Thank you. Good to be with you. First, let's start with you're from Ohio. Yeah, I've born a race in Cincinnati and been involved in elected office here, among other things. So you come from a real, I feel like Ohio is like the last real swing state. It's not the last one, but it's of a small group. Yeah, it's a real contest here. It has been for generations.

I think the thing about Ohio, I'd say, to be fair, I think it, it, it, tilts a little right. So a default may be the Republicans win by a couple, but overall, you know, clearly good Democrats, be they Barack Obama, Sherrod Brown, or others can win. And that's what goes back and forth. I feel like that's an important element when we're discussing this idea of laboratories of autocracy, because you are a state where a Democrat could win, but in Trump's new Republican Party, they're working real hard to make sure a Democrat. Democrat never wins Ohio again. Yeah. One of the realities is it's close enough that if you do certain things, you know, mess with the drop box idea or purge voters or gerrymander, you can dramatically change

outcomes even if you're not being as, you know, brutal as they were 100 years ago when it came to voter suppression. It's close enough here and there are other states like it that they can impact outcomes and they know it. So talk to me about what you're seeing. So what we're seeing here and it's, you know, the title of the book is pretty self-explanatory. We are seeing in states like Ohio a really nearly unimpeded, relentless attack on democracy. And it takes many forms. And sometimes I worry that we only think about it in the form of voting rights, which is obviously a very troubling element in itself, but it's broader than that. And it's nonstop. There's no accountability ever, so they just keep going. I think what we're really starting to see in a way that I think people don't appreciate

yet or most don't, is we have now lived since 2010 in states like Ohio, but many others. We have now lived for the first time where we have an entire generation of politicians in the majority of these state houses who've essentially never been really part of a democracy. They have been elected in highly gerrymandered districts, not 10 or 15 of them, but the majority or supermajority. Their own rise to power has never really involved democracy. They know that real democracy would mean the end of their power because they couldn't get away with things as extreme as they are and in some cases as corrupt as they are. So they're with their with the levers they have their hands on, you know, they can draw district lines, they can set

voting rules. They have every incentive and most are taking advantage of it to make sure that there's never sort of a robust enough democracy that knocks them out of power. And we're seeing it play out again and again. And it's that brutal and that relentless. I feel a little bit like Paul Revere here and there are others like me, that unless we wake up that it's that bad, we won't do nearly what we need to do on the federal level or with politics at all levels to stop what's happening. Yeah, you know, this is my passionate, as well, I think it should be all of ours. I mean, you know, we're on the precipice, and just because we were able to come back from it in 2020 doesn't mean that that will happen again.

No, it didn't stop for a moment. And as the book explains, the big win for those attacking democracy were all the state houses. The gerrymander of 2010 held all the work they did throughout the decade. They can keep doing it. And as the book, you know, when I say laboratories, this is not some exaggerated metaphor. It's literally how they operate. They learn from one another. Every time one state fails, they'll pick up the pieces and keep moving. And all the other states will learn the lessons from that failure. And they keep going and going and going. And so, you know, the first. fact that voters picked Biden, but then left all these same folks in charge of State House,

which was a difficult thing not to do since jerrymandering so bad, it reempowered them to do it again. One thing I get impatient with, although I get it, this is not because of the big lie. This precedes the big lie. This has gone on for years. Pattern is very clear. Now, the big lies provided sort of a most up-to-date excuse for it, but they've been doing this all decade. And we saw a new element of it when Democrats started to win governorships in 16 and 18 and Secretary of State's offices. All of a sudden, they went from simply voter suppression, gerrymandering, to attacking other officials who actually won elections that now threaten their power. It's now getting broader into attacking

independent courts in those states that also threaten their power. So it's literally expanding into new fronts. And now it's protests and the teaching of history. It's all tied together and it's accelerating. The point of my book is to talk about it. in stark enough terms that hopefully it breaks through and people actually act. Because there's still a chance to stop it, I believe. But if we just sit around in some lull and don't wake up to what it is, I think history is very clear. These types of relentless attacks on democracy ultimately prevail if there's not a hard pushback.

I mean, you know that the number one book on the bestseller list right now, or at least the Amazon bestseller when I was looking up your book, is a book called Rigged by federalist writer Molly Hemingway. I mean, I saw that. Yeah, they've gone full in anti-democracy. I mean, that's sort of, I don't know how you come back. I mean, I guess like it is Democrats just have to win at the state level. They have to win at the school boards. They have to win at the fucking dog catcher, excuse my French. But then, you know, a lot of this stuff will eventually get kicked up to the Supreme Court. And we have the super Trumpy Supreme Court. So at the end of the day, like, how hard is it to not be despairing about that?

It is hard. I mean, after the first 10 chapters in my book, I was already alarmed when I started writing it. I grew even more alarmed. My hope is that people see that it inspires action because we know from history if people lose energy, if they give up, the other side wins. And I looked at people like John Lewis or women suffragists

who spent their lifetime fighting democracy and say, okay, if they did it, we can do it. but those are the stakes. Now, here's the thing. I try and draw, I try and draw in the, so in the final couple of chapters are 30 steps that I say we all need to undertake. One of them is to see that you often have victories, even if they don't feel like victories at the time. For example, Stacey Abrams, who I happen to be friends with from law school, she did not win her Georgia governor's race. But everything she did to build energy and fight suppression, those were key building blocks to the victory that we saw in 20, just like when people run in a gerrymander district,

we often sort of cast them aside afterwards like their 30-point loss was their fault. No, the fact that they took on that race, registered voters, built a conversation, and down the road, that is all additive to hopefully victory. So I try and say, once you see this as a long game, there are a lot of victories along the way. And, you know, even though Ohio's a red state, we've had them here. We had two constitutional amendments. to change our districting process. We won three out of four Ohio Supreme Court races so that we have now an independent court that I feel will strike down efforts to ignore the new language. So there's a lot of work to be done. There's very few silver bullet solutions. Now, one, maybe the easiest solution,

and this may scare people, is that Congress steps up and protects us all. Yeah. That is an essential. And I try and explain in this book that the founders would have said, of course, they need to do that. they were worried about the potential risks of state houses becoming undemocratic on the entire country. They would expect the federal government to protect states against undemocratic efforts. So the first step that has to happen is federal protection against these anti-democratic efforts. But after that, it's a combination of many things that people at all, you know, business people, elected mayors, you name it, up and down the line, have to all take on sort of a pro-democracy mindset that we often use in addressing other countries that we now have to use in our mindset

about state houses and state-level governance. And if we don't do that in some broader way, beyond the federal legislation, we still won't succeed, I'm afraid. I think that's a really good point. And I think that is, you know, really true. Talk to me about what people who listen to this podcast because people ask me this all the time, what they should be doing. Well, I hate to promote a book, but I will. Yeah, that's why you're here. Right. Whether it's my book or someone else's, the first thing we have to do is make sure people understand what is happening at state houses. And I try and explain it in real terms, not academic, it's not both sides. It's pretty blunt. And I think that people, you know, most people couldn't name their state rep. They have no idea what their

state house does. They don't, and I'm not saying this to be, you know, insulting. I did neither until I got involved in politics. I was pretty educated. I paid a lot of attention. I didn't know what a state house did. Well, that's pretty standard. Most people don't. So the first thing, people just have to really understand what's happening before they could do something about it. So whether it's reading my book or finding an equivalent in your state, I try and cover a lot of states, really get informed on this so you can tell others about it and then spread the word. But then once you do that, If you have sway with your federal representatives, try and get them to step up when it comes to the legislation that's so critical. But then way beyond that, I talk about the need to really get involved at the local community level.

Every single state should have a functioning democracy. That means every citizen should be paying attention. Who's your state rep? Do they support democracy or don't they? If they do, help them out. Figure out who else you need to help. If they don't, make sure someone challenges them. If not you, someone you think should. One huge thing that has to happen, I go through this in the book, one of the most brutal tactics in states like Ohio has been the purging of voters from the rolls.

It is far more brutal on its impact than people realize. You know, one little case study gave on this. People don't, people, you know, Hillary Clinton did not do as well in Ohio, we all know as Obama did. But just to be clear, Hillary, the most important county in Ohio to win Ohio is Cuyahoga County. Hillary Clinton actually got a higher percentage of registered voters to vote for her in Cuyahoga than Obama did. But her margin of victory was tens of thousands of votes fewer than Obama. Why? Because so many voters in that county had been purged in the intervening years. Biden got even a higher percentage than Clinton of registered voters in Cuyahoga County. his margin victory was even lower than that. Why? Because so many had been purged. So the attacks on registered

voters knocking them off the rolls because they hadn't voted in several elections, in some cases, because of government error, by the way, is a huge problem. And so that's the other thing I'd say. If you're a mayor, if you're a councilman, if you're a board of education, if you run a non-profit, if you're a volunteer, get yourself in the registration business. If you run a barbershop or a restaurant, They are attacking voters right now through very, very brutal voter purge tactics. And everyone who cares a democracy should be offended by that. If you're the mayor of a city, you should be as upset about that as you are concerned about a good census count. And you should take whatever footprint you're in charge of and use it to try and register people.

You know, if you're a mayor of a city and you run health clinics like they do at City of Cincinnati or rec centers, make sure people can register when they come to the rec center. Make sure they can, don't just do it at the Bureau of Motor Vehicles. Do it everywhere. They're knocking your constituents off the rolls, so you should fight every single day to get them back on the rolls. Again, if you're a restaurant, do it. If we only rely on candidates to register voters, it's not going to happen in time. If we only rely on, you know, visionaries like Stacey Abrams to begin organizations to do it, wonderful. That will happen sometimes. But we need to put it in sort of the bloodstream of everything we do. they were always registering empowering voters, since we know the other side is always doing whatever

they can and knock them off the rolls. So there's a lot more in there, but it involves really engaging in, as you said, school board, city council, you know, banish the term off your elections. Do not say the word. It's a school election. It's a local election, which means, you know, police community relations or reform or safety or jobs. And not only do those offices matter, and I happen to be a city council member county commissioner at certain points. But just like Stacey's race in 18 matter, everyone who votes for that school board election is likely going to vote next year. If you registered them for that school board election, it means they won't be purged. So all these races are additive. And Democrats need to get out of the mindset of prioritizing only electoral college swing states and only getting

energized around federal elections in the presidential election. One of the things that the other side has done incredibly well is they invest every single year. They invest far more than just swing states. And as we're seeing right now, they'll invest in school board, city council, you name it, if it advances their agenda. We have to think the same way on our side. No, that is for sure true. And I do think that Democrats have really struggled with this idea of this sort of off, yes, we're not going to call it the off-year election anymore. We're going to call it the other. other year election. Right. You know, what does the Ohio Democratic Party look like for those of us who live in New York City? So I'm not the chair of the party anymore. No, I know, but you have your finger on the pulse, my guess is.

Yeah, I mean, so let's just say it's gearing up for next year. We do have, I think, a really good opportunity in Tim Ryan's candidacy against whoever wins the crazy Republican primary. They're all competing to be, you know, Trumpy. And I think that that matchup in the end could be as good as possible if it's, let's say, Ryan against Mandel. We're also gearing up for a governor's race. But I'll also tell you, it's tough. Biden lost Ohio by eight, trying to convince folks to invest in Ohio. I think Tim Ryan can make the case because the Senate's so close and he's a good candidate.

But my guess is the party is just working very. very hard to get people to see that Ohio can be winnable at multiple levels. One of the things that I hope they do, not being there anymore, is as I mentioned in the book, you got to run in every district. No one should get a pass. No communities should not have a choice. So they're also, I'm sure, out working very hard to recruit people. But not only is it the right thing to do, you'll do better. The more Virginia ran for those statehouse districts in 1719, the more they won some of them and ultimately broke the other side's majority. Our best pickup year of the decade, was in 18. When we ran in every single statehouse district, all 99, we flipped six,

so we hadn't flipped all decades. So right now you're also in a major recruitment mode. It's made more complicated by the fact that they're still, you know, trying to gerrymander the state. But so right now you're in a recruitment mode, trying to build up support. The hard part, though, is that, you know, we were pretty successful in raising resources. But once you've been kind of branded in a, well, you're red now. Right. Unlike the Koch brothers, Democrats too often give up on those states. Right. So you allow momentary success from the other side to become permanent success if that's your mindset. And I want to say that the DNC and Tom Perez were always good to us. So they always kept us in the mix. We had a debate here. We got support here. But the risk of casting states aside the minute they have one or two cycles that aren't good, you know, this happened to Missouri, which used to be much more swing. You permanently give it up to the other side. and they don't have that mindset. I point out in the book, if you go to the map that's on one of the, it's called

the SPN, I think state policy network, if you go to their map of states that they invest in or have think tanks in, it's not red and blue. There's a think tank in every state. There's one in Vermont. There's one in Hawaii. They're fighting against democracy everywhere. And if we only choose to engage in the fight where we think we can win electoral college votes, we're giving up more than half. the map before we start. And as I said, we're letting temporary wins by them, like the fact that Trump did well, Ohio, become permanent wins. Even though over history, looked at Ohio, Bush won here twice, Obama won here twice, shared one by almost seven, more than the governor won here. You can go both ways here unless you make the decision you're not going to try to. And that's a risk going forward

and not just here, but other states as well. This was so interesting. Thank you so much for joining us. I hope you'll come back. You're welcome. Take care. Thanks for all you do. What's crazier than QAnon, more outlandish than Pizza Gate, and scarier than a Mexican getaway with Ted Cruz? The answer is what the American right wing has planned next. Be one of the first to listen to Fever Dreams, new podcasts from The Daily Beast, tracking the conspiracy slingers, orange acolytes, and straight-up grifters pushing to retake power. Every Wednesday hosts Swin Subisang and Will Summer checking in on the movement of the radical right. Head to the DailyBeast.com slash podcasts or your favorite podcast player to catch the first episode and get subscribed.

That's fever dreams, which you can subscribe to wherever you get your podcasts. Jesse Cannon. Molly Jong Fast. How's it going today? I'm in Washington, D.C., the city that I almost live in. A city I'm not so fond of. And my fuck that guy today is a young man who cannot be. held responsible for his behavior because he is only 43 years old. He is called his same name as

his father. Mommy, he's older than us by a few months. Love to see it. Anyway, you may remember Donald Trump Jr. You know, he's in semi-retirement now. I mean, it's not like he has some kind of job, but he's very busy on the internets and he is very, very, very angry at Alec Baldwin. for the tragic accident, where a cinematographer was killed with a live gun, which is, seems to have, I mean, we don't know the whole investigation is not done yet, but it certainly seems like it was an accident and that it was really the prop team's mess up. But Don Jr. doesn't care because Don Jr. never cares. And so Don Jr. is selling anti-Aleck Baldwin T-shirts that say,

In fact, Jesse, what do they say? Guns don't kill people. Alec Baldwin kills people. If I were Don Jr. And I were the worst person in the world, this would not be something I would do. But again, that is, this is who he is. I also love that it's rehashing this old guns don't kill people, people kill people trope, which is probably the dumbest comeback that the gun people ever had to any critique of them.

Yeah. Well, it's their favorite. But of course the dumbest man has a propensity towards things like this. Yeah, I'm shocked. He's like his father without the charm. So anyway, he wins because one of the things we know John Jr. for is always being just a little bit beyond the pale. And for that, he is today's fuck that guy.

Who is your fuck that guy? My fuck that guy goes out to the leadership of Facebook because on this podcast, yes. on this podcast if you've been listening, we've done a lot of interviews with tech reporters. And some say they're evil. Some say that they are not quite equipped for their job mentally, that it's too hard to grasp this responsibility. And some do some laundry for them and try to say that they seem like good people.

But I think we found out, funny enough, that Facebook was well aware that they were just, destroying our country and they said, we got to keep growing. And for that, I want to say a wholehearted fuck you because Facebook really should. I know a lot of people think it sounds crazy to say Facebook needs to pull the plug for a while until they figure out what to do. But in any other business, if it was fucking up this much of life, you would say, you know what? We got to pause this whole thing until we figure things out. So if you want to make it that you could just upload, of your kids hitting you at the nuts with footballs or whatever, I'm all for it.

Whatever that's got to be, I think until then, turn off the groups, turn off the vaccine talk, turn off everything and figure out how you're going to deal with this. Yeah, I don't think they're going to do it. Something tells me. I don't think they're going to do it. I know, I know. But we'd recall cars when they'd fuck up this bad. If it was endangering people, getting people killed, having coups started in countries as they've done before.

It's hard to pick which is worse, the radicalizing Americans or the destroying democracy overseas. Yeah, but so fuck off Facebook. On that note, we'll wrap this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast. In future episodes, we'll be talking to smart folks from the Daily Beast and beyond from media, culture, politics, and science. We'll help us understand what's happening to our country and the world. We hope you'll subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app and share the show on social media. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you. you again on the next episode.

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