The Daily Beast Podcast - The Most Surprising Thing About SCOTUS’ Abortion Pill Ruling

Episode Date: June 14, 2024

This week on The New Abnormal, hosts Danielle Moodie and Andy Levy look at the Supreme Court’s abortion pill ruling in more detail. Plus! Jason Starr, Director Of Litigation at the Human Rights Campaign, details a Florida judge’s ruling striking down one the state’s harsh transgender law. Then, Egyptian filmmaker Ibrahim Nash’at talks about his journey filming the Taliban over the course of a year for his film, “Hollywoodgate.” Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Kedden, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully

even make you laugh through the tears. What an excellent show we have today. Jason Starr, director of litigation for the human rights campaign, is here to tell us about the recent decision that shot down Ronda Santis' ban on transgender care, calling it unconstitutional. Then we'll talk to Egyptian filmmaker Abraham Nashat. We'll tell us all about his new documentary Hollywood game, where he was given access to film the Taliban for a year.

year following U.S. troops pulling out of Afghanistan. But first, let's have some fun. So, for once, we have news coming out of the Supreme Court that doesn't suck, but don't let that deter your eyes from watching their following results come in. But on the abortion front right now, you had a group of plaintiffs who wanted to overturn the 25-year approval of Mitha-Pristone. that the FDA had approved. That has never happened before. Miffa Pristone is known as the abortion pill that women and people with uteruses

have access to across the country. If the Supreme Court moved in the direction that they did with Dobbs, this was going to be catastrophic, not just for people living in red states, but for people living in every single state. I had believed that this was going to open up a huge, I don't know,

portal into hell if now all of a sudden a drug can be approved by the FDA and then the Supreme Court against doctors, against the will of the people can go ahead and overturn it because of a group of white evangelical Christians that don't want people having access to it. I don't get these fucking people, Andy. You don't want to take something. You don't want to marry someone. Don't fucking do it. But why they need to have the ability to control everyone around them instead of just dealing with your own fucking life, I don't understand. But what was surprising to me is that this decision by the Supreme Court was unanimous. We get unanimous decisions on pretty much nothing. I don't think if you asked them all, if the sky were blue, we would get a unanimous decision on that.

So I, for one, am shocked, but this should have never been heard by the Supreme Court in the first place. But I digress. Yeah, absolutely. Our listeners probably know this already, but no, the Supreme court has not gone woke with this decision. Oh, it has not. This is strictly a decision about standing. This was strictly Brett Kavanaugh, in his opinion that was joined by most of the rest of the justices. It was just that, hey, the doctors bringing this case do not have standing.

And federal court is not the place to do this. I think his exact words, Kavanaugh, were the federal courts are the wrong form for for addressing the plaintiff's concerns about FDA's actions. Chris Geidner over at Law Dork, he's a friend. of the pod and does great coverage. He pointed out that there already exist so-called conscience protections. And Kavanaugh made a point of saying this in his opinion. He said, in short, given the broad and comprehensive conscience protections guaranteed by federal law, the plaintiffs have not shown and cannot show that the FDA's actions will cause them to

suffer any conscience injury. So to your point of if you don't want to do this, you know, don't become a doctor. I agree with you. But Kavanaugh's pointing out, there's no law. that says you have to prescribe Biffa Pristo and as a doctor, you're free to not prescribe it. What they wanted to do this group of doctors was prevent any other doctor from prescribing it. That was too much even for this Supreme Court. And you know that shit is off the rails if this Supreme Court looks at it and says, oh, no, that's going too far. Which is fucking terrifying.

I know. But the fact of the matter is, yes, this was a good decision and it's good that the court did this. But it doesn't really change much. I believe there are already states that ban Miffiphypristo and this doesn't address that. This is not going to be the last time something like this comes before the court. And at some point, the court's going to say, okay, we do have to address the issue here because the people bringing the case do have standing. What they did here basically was say, we don't even have to address the issue because you have no standing before this court. But what they continue to do, I feel like in their decisions, is give homework.

to the plaintiffs, like go back to the drawing board. Here are the things that I would have done differently. So go back to the drawing board and come back again. While it doesn't change anything that is happening right now, it doesn't change the patchwork of protections that women and people with uteruses in these red states that now basically have near abortion bans. It doesn't change any of that. But what it does is at least provide a bit of breathing room for those people who live,

like we do in blue states who were going to be affected if in fact this law was overturned. Because then you're saying like with the FDA, we have these different agencies for a reason because they have expertise and there are critical hoops, right, that different drugs have to go through in order to get approved. This was approved as safe 25 years ago. Yep. So if there has not been considerable harm, why would this be something that then would now not be approved? Why would this be overturned other than people's moral objections, which isn't enough? But I feel like this Supreme Court, because of their weaponization of the law and their position, has just opened the floodgates to any fucking kook and crazy to come in and say, well, I have a moral. objection to the color orange. I don't want anyone wearing the color orange anymore. And this Supreme Court is just like, we'll hear that case in April. You know, like, it's like, what are you doing?

But this is the door that they've opened. No, for sure. And Kavanaugh straight up says, he says, look, if you want to, you know, if you want to try to curtail Mithephystone, you can go through the regulatory method. You can try to get it more heavily regulated. You can pass laws restricting it. And like you said, he's giving them homework. He's laying out the blueprint and telling them that, hey, this way doesn't work. So why don't you just, you know, go ahead and try these things because those might work. And those will be legitimate if they do work in the eyes of this court. This is so far from the end for this.

But what this is, though, is it's an excellent rebuke of probably or I'll stick with probably the worst federal court judge we've got. who is Matthew Casmaric down in the Fifth Circuit in Texas. And he is the one that originally issued the ruling that the FDA's loosening of restrictions on Biffrapristone were not okay. So this is actually a rebuke of him and telling him, hey, you should never have issued that ruling because the plaintiffs had no standing. And Casmaric is not going to stop because he is a one-man MAGA justice force. But it is nice to see, again, even this Supreme Court tell this guy, yeah, you need to slow your role.

And just so folks don't breathe too easy, we're still waiting on the decision about Donald Trump and immunity, right? So I also, because I live in a place of constant hell, that I'm like, oh, was this decision unanimous? Oh, partly because of standing, but partly also because they're getting ready to just throw out like the Constitution and everything else. and Donald Trump is now king, which would also make, by the way, Joe Biden king, which is exactly what Republicans don't want. But nonetheless, I hope that this isn't just softening the death blow. But who the fuck knows? No, that's a really good point.

And I mean, that ruling could come where, you know, as soon as Friday. Back in the day, I would have said, no, the Supreme Court would never do something like, I ain't saying that now. Yeah, because we would be wrong. I hate it here. So speaking of like, if the Supreme Court were to decide that presidents have absolute immunity, then they would be giving Republicans their worst nightmare, which is Joe Biden being king, even though I think that he would be a benevolent one unlike the fucking, what is it,

Henry the 8th that we're going to be dealing with. Nonetheless, Donald Trump, after he gets his, what was it, Andy, one, two, 12, no. 34, 34, 34 felony count. that he is convicted on. One of the first people that he called was not his wife, you know, because that would be crazy. Instead, he gets on the horn with the man that has a job that no one absolutely wants, which is Mike Johnson as Speaker of the House. You think that he would be calling Mike Johnson to say, okay, this is now behind us, this criminal case, and I want to get serious about our platform for the American people moving forward in 2025.

Do you think that that's what he called Mike Johnson for? It wasn't. Nope. Nope. And I hope he didn't hold your breath, Andy, because I didn't want to hear a thumb. But the fact of the matter is, nope, he called Mike Johnson because he wanted to rally the troops to his aid so that they could do what they did outside of the courtroom, which is where his same outfits, where their matching cult uniforms, come to his defense and use their power and their power. and their platform in Congress to retaliate against those Democrats who he believes have been engineering this witch hunt against him, which would have him come down with 34 felony counts

by a jury of his peers. And Mike Johnson, he doesn't need much persuasion. Like, he's in it to win it. He's about that life. You need something for me, boss. I'm going to go and do it. And I'm going to do it in a red tie. This is what Donald Trump's plans are for 2025.

There is no plan for America. There is no conversation about what the platform is going to be that they're announcing, you know, at convention. It's just like, who is on my side, who is going to go to bat for me, and who's willing to give everything that they have to make sure that I stay out of jail? That's it. That's the platform in a nutshell. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, look, Danielle, I'll be honest. I'm still recovering from the fact that the phone call was not about.

planning. I didn't hold my breath, but I am reeling right now. So in this phone call, which was reported by Politico, Trump apparently said to Mike Johnson, we have to overturn this, meaning the 34 guilty verdicts. And Johnson is absolutely sympathetic to this. And there are people, there are House Republicans who are exploring ways to do this, among them luminaries like Ron Johnson and Jim Jordan. Not luminaries. I don't know what that word means. I have to be honest. with you. I mean, what we do know is that it's not them. So there's that. I think Webster would agree with us. Does it not mean dumbass politicians? All right. Well, I learned something today. And there's an argument being made that because there are cases when federal lawmakers can, if they are brought up on state charges,

they can have those cases move to federal court. And Ron Johnson is arguing that president should have the same thing. And, you know, as Politico points out, Donald Trump ain't president right now. So that shouldn't even apply. But the whole point is that, yes, this is the party that has claimed to be the Law and Order Party. And as we've seen, they do not now, nor have they ever had respect for the law part of that. And we hear day after day from them about how the Democrats are weaponizing the justice system and weaponizing the Justice Department. And as always, they're the ones who are doing that and who are trying to do that. Like you said, all of this is about keeping Donald Trump out of jail.

It's about keeping Donald Trump restoring him to power. And I'm out of things to say. I mean, we're all out of things to say. Yeah. And moving from one speaker to the next, because never in life did I think that I would say that Paul Ryan had something positive, like had some clarity. maybe Paul Ryan is the luminary right now where he goes on Fox News, this former Speaker of the House that served just two years a speaker in Donald Trump's four years of his administration and says that Donald Trump thinks that he's above the Constitution. He wants to be an authoritarian and a dictator.

While I can give two shits about Paul Ryan, I think that it's important that he's actually saying these things on Fox to an audience. that he knows if he were in front of would probably boo him. But nonetheless, this is a captive audience. Maybe somebody will listen. It shows you how completely absurd the Republican Party has gotten. That like now we look to Paul Ryan to be somebody, you know, who is trying to shake sense into a party that has become a cult. Danielle, I know this is going to come as a shock to you, but as media matters reported,

Fox News has not really covered Paul Ryan saying this on Fox News. That's amazing. It basically wasn't mentioned by anyone except, I guess Gutfeld made some kind of joke about Paul Ryan. This is what they do. And yeah, you know, props to Paul Ryan, not my favorite guy in the world by a large stretch. But props to him for saying this and for saying it on Fox News, of course, we should point out that he also said he can't vote. vote for Joe Biden. I listen to these guys and it's like, I don't care how much you disagree with Joe Biden. If you truly believe that Donald Trump is a threat to the Constitution who puts

himself above the Constitution and is unfit for office, you got to vote for the other guy. Regardless of how you feel that as policies. And I would say this, well, I think I would say if there were a hardcore Republican running against a Democrat. I just can't even imagine that situation. So I don't know. But at a certain point, it's like, I don't know. I don't No, is it enough that he just said he won't vote for Donald Trump? Whatever. But yeah, so props to him for saying it. I just, my bar is a little higher than that right now, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.

So nobody is coming to your limbo contest because the bar is not existent anymore. Andy, we need to not have a bar, right? Because we're just in the gutter. I think I need to go to a bar right now. I think that's what I'm saying. Folks, I am very happy to welcome to the new abnormal, the litigation strategist at HRC, the human rights campaign, Jason Starr, to talk about a recent decision out of Florida by a federal judge who has thrown out Florida's law blocking treatment for transgender children and adults. Senior judge Robert Hinkle said that the state went too far when it barred transgender minors from being prescribed puberty blockers and hormonal treatments with their parents' permission.

Jason, bring us back to 2023 to Ron DeSantis' administration deciding that this would be the next level to which he would target transgender people in the state of Florida. just walk us through how we got here. Right. Well, first, thank you so much for having me and covering this, you know, really important development in the law and also in the lives of transgender Floridians and frankly, transgender people across the country. This was really a sweeping decision and a sweeping repudiation of much of the rhetoric that we

have seen, not just in Florida, but across the country at the initiation and execution of these laws. But I actually take you back to 2022, because. Because before we ever had the Florida legislature introducing and ultimately passing these bans and restrictions, the governor's office directly through the Florida Department of Health initiated essentially a process whereby the boards of medicine and boards of osteopathic medicine would make rules that resulted from findings by the Surgeon General, which came at the behest of the governor after the federal government issued its guidelines with respect to. this kind of treatment. What we see and what we saw in terms of the initiation of this policy issue in Florida really was the Biden administration, of course, releasing guidance with respect to this issue. And then immediately the governor, through the surgeon general, denouncing that

guidance, issuing his own guidance, which did not comport with generally accepted principles of medical science, which then initiated rulemaking first around restricting the availability of state Medicaid funds and public funds to pay for gender-affirmament. care in the state of Florida and then ultimately let the boards to pass rules that essentially mirror what the legislature ultimately did in 2023. So, you know, we can trace back directly to action at the federal level to really clarify and reinforce what the law requires with respect to equal protection, how health care should be administered in this context, and really making a political response that found its way sort of codified into first administrative rules

and then ultimately the law that we challenged and was ultimately overturned by Judge Inkel. Thank you for that. A trip down. I would say memory lane, but I would say nightmare lane. Ron DeSantis seems to stop at nothing in order to make Florida as unsafe for transgender people, for queer people, for black people, for women as he possibly can. But I wanted to lift up what Judge Hinkle said in his 105-page decision that he authored on this. then we can talk about it. Hinkle said transgender people are constitutionally entitled to the legitimate

treatment they need. And quoting the late Reverend Martin Luther King Jr., he said this, quote, some transgender opponents invoke religion to support their position, just as some once invoked religion to support their racism or misogyny. Transgender opponents are, of course, free to hold their beliefs, but they are not free to discriminate against transgender individuals just for being transgender. In time, discrimination against transgender individuals will diminish, just as racism and misogyny have diminished. To paraphrase civil rights advocate from an earlier time, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. I mean, the only pushback that I have on that statement is that racism and misogyny, sure as hell, have not diminished one bit in this country.

I suppose in some instances, we can say things have gotten better, but in there are many. instances where you can point to where that is not the case. What do you make of that passage of his 105 page decision and what this signals to other states that have used Florida as their blueprint for discrimination? Well, the very specific callback to race discrimination and sex discrimination and using the off-coded Dr. King there, you know, certainly adds a moral heft to this. I've read it few times, obviously, it was on the trial team, and we read it with a certain lens, but I also just read it as a human being, a member of this great tapestry. And I feel like there's a lot in there, including that passage that really just speaks morally to our sort of core obligations

and identities in an organized society. You know, that really, from a legal perspective, speaks to, I think, a really, really important aspect of this case that maybe makes it a little be unique from the other cases that we know are out there and percolating up through the courts. And that's the fact that, you know, we were required to essentially present evidence and prove the laws and the rules that we challenge by discriminatory animus or bias, that the intent was really to target transgender people for the purpose of preventing and impeding those individuals from existing as transgender people in Florida. From a political perspective, right? And just from a reading the teeth leaves perspective, we know that to be true.

Issues that are actually properly within the scope of regulation. They're not concerned about the practice of medicine, about access to health care, safe and effective treatments. But really, all of that is the patina that they put over their rank bias and discrimination. And so what we had to do for the first time in one of these cases is actually put facts into evidence and apply those facts to the law in order for that to be a legal conclusion. And so this is the first time a judge after a full trial has said, there is no legitimate purpose here. And actually, based on the evidence that I have seen, based on the wild statements from legislators and the governor himself, based on the incredible deviations from normal practice in the way that this went from an idea into the governor's head to having the power of the state behind it really speaks to discrimination and bias. And so I think one takeaway from this case beyond, right, the sort of protections that it provides for the administration of this care of Florida is really a judge for the first time saying, I see this for what it is.

It is by animus. It is discrimination. And you can look to Florida. We can look to Alabama. You can look to Arkansas. You can look up and down the 20 plus odd states that have banned this care. And you see the same type of rhetoric, the same type of hyperbole, the same type of. the same type of environment created by the individuals who introduced and enact this legislation.

And I think hopefully for other advocates, for other lawyers and folks on the ground, it gives them something to work with to say, here's how you knit all that stuff together and make a legal claim that you can say you're regulating medicine, you can say you're protecting children, you can give sort of these political protectional justifications. But when the rubber meets the road, this is rank discrimination, root to stem. You know, one of the things I think that trouble me, I'm obviously glad that in this particular instance, the judge cited on the right side of history and equity and bodily autonomy.

But what happens is that you can come and you tell me how your formulation of the case went, but there are crackpot doctors on the other side, right? Doctors that will sit there and use language to the extent that what these purses, blockers do is is mutilation. It is child mutilation and we're against that in the state. Like that actually came out of the mouth of Governor DeSantis and you can back it up. They can back up their claims with whatever crackpot doctors that they have. And so I wonder just, you know, give us a little bit more insight into how you create a factual case based on real medical evidence that can actually go toe to toe with this earth two that these people live on, right? Because there's always

going to be, if I come in with science and I'm talking to you about climate change, they're going to find a scientist on their, you know, and I use that in quotations on their side that is going to say, oh, climate change doesn't exist. So how do you formulate a case that is based in facts when you know that they are operating in anything but? It speaks to a unique character of these kinds of cases where, you know, we are talking about medical science and practice. And while I'll say as one of the lawyers on the case, we learned far more about the practice of medicine and about medicine in general than I think any of us ever thought we would as lawyers. That comes from the expert testimony that we proffered in this case. And I should speak to the cadre of medical experts, whether they are

researchers, clinicians, also bioethicists and folks who look at the ethical issues that arise when you interrupt the doctor-patient relationship in the way that these laws do. And we pull together experts who have the requisite research, background, clinical experience that can be certified, if you will, by the court to weigh their expert testimony. The court's being educated in many ways on these issues as well. And so, of course, we have a range of an expert. But you're right. We are living on Earth, too, with two different realities, two different trends.

two different truths. But, you know, it's incumbent upon us to not only understand the medical science undergrating treatments, which, again, are generally safe, medically necessary and effective, right? And understand the construct in which, like, medicine is practiced, but also that every major medical association supports the standards of care. That's the world professional Association of Transgender Health and the Endocrine Society's clinical practice guidelines. These are things that clinicians use every day as they develop individualized treatment plans and work through whatever issues that their patients actually have, you know, on their health care journey. So we actually have the weight of medical evidence on our site. So that's a great place to start

from. And we have a really strong cadre of experts who are providing care, who are doing research in this, but now are also showing up in court to really help articulate and elucidate these issues for the court. And we also have a judge who is taking the issue straight up and down. And I recognize that with the capture of our judiciary, like many of our institutions, that may not always be the case in every court. But here, we had that. We had our experts. We had our own base of knowledge that we developed and making the arguments and how we presented to court. And we had a judge that was not swayed one way or the other politically with respect to how he's going to assess the issue. You know, I want to bring up to, I guess, one of the people that you had on your case, was it Lucian Hamel?

That's right, Lucian. So I just want to bring up what they were quoted as saying in a statement, which is, I'm so relieved the court saw there is no medical basis for this law. It was passed just to target transgender people like me and to try and push us out of Florida. This is my home. I've lived here my entire life. This is my son's home. I can't just uproot my family and move across the country. The state has no place interfering in people's private medical decisions,

and I'm relieved that I can once again get the health care that I need in Florida. And I read that because I want folks listening to understand that when we sometimes say very flippant things like, well, those people just need to get out of Florida, or they just need to leave Alabama, or they just need to leave Texas or Tennessee, that these are people's homes. This is where people were born and raised where their roots are. And to say that they should have to now uproot themselves and find a new place to live, not because they desire to do so, but because the place that they were born in has been made unsafe for them is crazy to me. Like I think about that and I think, you know, and I want to give you the opportunity, Jason, to tell us like, what's next, right?

we know this will be appealed. We know that Lucian and others may be safe in this moment, but we know that DeSantis is not giving up this fight to expel transgender people, queer people from the state of Florida. And so what comes next? Sure. Well, look, I mean, we're talking about, just to speak to the first point about Lucian. I love that, you know, he said, this is my home because that word, you know, carries so much weight who you are and where you are. That's a, that's a familiar word, and it invokes a familiar set of feelings. You know, we're talking about somewhere between 300 and 400,000 transgender Floridians. The idea that there's going to be some kind of mass migration to California

and New York and Illinois is ludicrous as a practical matter and as a thought exercise. But drilling it down to the individual, I mean, Lucian has a partner and a child and a job and obligations and responsibilities. It's a life. And the idea that the state can come in and say, well, you just can't get the medical care you need to continue to live and thrive, it should be enough to make everyone stand up and say this is not the kind of state or the kind of country that we want to live in. But in terms of what's next, as you mentioned, you know, as expected, the governor and has indicated that the state will appeal the decision. But we're talking about right now impacts. I'm talking about a clinic in Central Florida that treats adults that has a staff of APRN's

and incredible environment for the community that was completely shut down, right? And they're going to be able to open now. They're already like scheduling appointments. I'm thinking about, you know, sort of doctors in Jacksonville that I'm in contact with. Doctors in the Central Florida area, South Florida area. And folks are like, you know, they're activated. They're thinking like, okay, calling my patients, getting folks the prescriptions that they need. They're already in sort of operating under the assumption that we're living right now in a very unstable legal environment when it comes to accessing this kinds of care.

It's available today. It's not available tomorrow. But then after an appeal, it may be available two or three months from now. Right. So I think folks have started to exercise the muscle of like, how do we get the most out of the moment? How do I just maximize the amount of the folks I'm able to see and treat? How do we get folks the medication that they need in a way that. is responsible and safe, but it also recognizes we may be on borrowed time. And that is just

the reality that we live in. But, you know, from our perspective, like, we stand ready. Jochenko gave us a wonderful decision. It's going to, you know, I think it's going to be very difficult for the state to sort of step away from much of what he wrote in his opinion. These are words from legislators. These are words from the governor. This isn't a summary of kind of what they think or say. This is like from the horse's mouth when it comes to. the discrimination and the animus that just seeps out of their pores. So we stand ready. And in the interim, you know, a lot of folks, including HRC, are really just working to support these clinicians, to support these families and to make sure that we're getting the most out of the moment we have

right now. Well, Jason, I want to thank you for your work on this. I think that it is extraordinary. It gives me, and I'm sure all of the people listening hope that there are people that are fighting back against this type of disgusting, discriminatory, hateful legislation and policy that has been able to go into law and thankfully for right now. It is blocked. Really appreciate you making the time for the new abnormal and hope that you will come back and keep us up to date on all that's happening. Thank you so much, Danielle. And thanks to all the listeners and supporters out there. This energy and vibe really means a lot for community. It's Pride Month. So I hope everyone out there as having a happy and safe pride as well.

Happy pride to you. For his new documentary, award-winning Egyptian filmmaker Ibrahim Nashat, went to Afghanistan immediately after American troops pulled out and was granted access to follow the Taliban for an entire year, a year in which, as is noted in the film, a fundamentalist militia turned into a military regime with modern weaponry. One guess where that weaponry came from. Ibrahim joins me now to talk about the documentary,

which is called Hollywood Gate. described it as I couldn't take my eyes off it. It was so captivating and it's currently playing in film festivals. Ibrahim, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much, I'm good for having me. It's a player being with you. My first question is, how did you gain access from the Taliban to shoot all of this? Working in journalism for almost the decade has somehow taught me to work with people to film with people of both power in my previous work. I've filmed a lot of people in power, presidents, vice presidents and so on. When you work in such environments, you know, how to reach people in power.

And when Taliban came into power, tracked down the middleman or the fixture that brings them basically to the channels. And we were able to convince them through him that I could get a visa and find my own way of getting in the Afghanistan when the airport was closed.

And when I got there, the guy completely disappeared and I found him on my own there. But when I was in contact with him, I asked him to put me in contact with a translator from the group. So you could see that there's someone with me from the group

and they accept basically my existence. And at that time, they were actually pretty open to the idea of having media presence. They were saying, we are Taliban 2.0. It's different. We're not the same. And they were trying to say, we were let women be free and all of these things that they were saying at the beginning, which definitely didn't happen. And at that time, I tried to reach the people in power with the translator, but I failed. And I almost left the country, and I told the Taliban translator, I'm leaving. I ran almost out of money and I'm about able to getting access.

I told me, why do you want to film only the people of power come and film normal Taliban? And he took me into Hollywood Gate. And when I saw the base, which didn't exist anywhere in me, it's claimed to be a CIA base, but I would never say it's our base. I saw Hollywood Gate. I knew that I would do whatever it takes to stay within that space. And I met the Angles Soldier, and through the Angles Soldier, I kept going up the leather until I met the head of the Air Forces.

I agreed to film with me. And from the beginning, I told them I would like to stay here for one year and show the world who you are, your military life, your personal life, without imposing any narrative, without trying to make your heroes or try to make your villains. They accepted in the beginning. By the time they started to become more of militia, things started to become much harder. But I was inside somehow, and with a lot of persistence and trying from many ways, we were able to keep that access to the last year shooting when the official somehow became a military regime.

Yeah, it is just, it's incredible the level of access you had. and what you were able to show. And I want to talk about the two main people you shadow throughout the film are, as you said, the head of the Air Force, Malawi, Amman Mansour. And to me, he was really sort of the main character of the movie. And you also follow an Air Force lieutenant named Mouktar. But you end up at this place, like you said, called Hollywood Gate. Explain what that is.

What is Hollywood Gate? It's a base within the military airport. The Taliban say it's a CIA base, but the CIA would never say it's the CIA base. And it had a lot of things that were not. broken, there had a lot of stores, you could see a lot of menaces stores, spare parts for fixing airplanes, weapons that were linked under the ground, which I was not able to film, but they were there, a lot of things that were still somehow intact and somehow not completely destroyed as what we understood from the Pentagon that all of these things were completely destroyed and

nonexistent. And this base was kind of a center for them to be able to try to fix many of the airplanes that were left behind the Afghan National Army and many other equipment. We see at the beginning of the film when they first go to Hollywood Gate and you're with them, we see, like you said, a lot of medical supplies. We see non-functioning helicopters. We see planes, things that were deliberately wrecked by the Americans before they left. But one Taliban says, he says, the Americans left us an enormous treasure. And as you're filming them for the year, one of the things you show is you show them

in various states and at various points, fixing all of this equipment, repairing all of it. And we see by the end of the film that the man who said the Americans left us an enormous treasure was absolutely right, wasn't he? Somehow, which I didn't believe, where I didn't really take it serious, but somehow they were able to put it together, which was for me as a surprise and as shocking as it is for anyone how it would see it. Yeah, no, it's really incredible to watch and the way, you know, you sort of interspersed it throughout the film because it's occurring over this year.

that you're there. I'm curious how in your mind the Taliban decided what was okay for you to shoot and what wasn't. It's made pretty clear to you and you show this early on that the repercussions for you filming something they didn't want you to would be serious. I think it's Mansour who early on says of you, if his intentions are bad, he will die soon, which doesn't sound like something very comfortable to hear. But not long after that, you are filming them as they're discussing operational plans to take out some, you know, insurgents and infiltrators. The beauty about filming observation in cinema is that you don't really interfere much. You just exist.

And you somehow have to follow the rules of you're being inside the military space and working with like commanders and leader in the space. You don't really interfere much. And we took a decision from the beginning as a team that we're not going to film any interview. We're just going to observe what's happening. And whenever they give me an access to film, I directly never used the camera. I stayed and held the camera in my hand for a while until the, started to pay less attention to. And this is something about humanity in general. Whenever you film

someone, anyone think their life is boring. Whichever they are, nobody thinks my life is amazing the whole time. So you need to be patient and present for so long until you're able to start to capture these scenes, which they don't really pay attention to this, this is happening. But again, I was trying as much as possible to just be there as long as possible. And we were able to capture around 220 hours that we conveyed with the support of a brilliant team, for me, the best people in the industry. The highest levels, people I'd never dream to force wet and somehow I find myself with them working on the film together and with their quality and their ability to make sure we were able to convince 20 hours into the final product that we saw.

Yeah, it's really remarkably done. At one point in the movie, I think you're talking to the Air Force Lieutenant Mukhtar, and he says that his dream is that the American troops were still there so he could set up an ambush and keep shooting until his heart was satisfied and then become a martyr. watching this and I'm just thinking, boy, that is a tough enemy to beat. And we learned that very harshly, didn't we? For me, this says something also different about the mentality and what they feed the younger soldiers and the propaganda they put in their heads of the fact that they are uncomfortable being in peace and they always seek war. So even after winning, he's still calling for a war and he's still calling for Americans to come back and to be a marcher, which really

explains the kind of extreme chariallo they are trying to impose on their guys, which is like not really Sharia lo or anything. It's more of Shadjahed mentality and ideology of wanting to live in war. And that's what he's skinning on and peace for him with something uncomfortable, I guess. Yeah, as I was watching it, I was thinking, well, this is not just the Taliban. This exists in every cultures, including here in America. There were scenes of young boys watching Taliban military training and stuff like that. The young boys had a look on their face that really was just like they were thinking.

thinking to themselves, I can't wait to be old enough to be part of this. And it's so heartbreaking because of what you said, it's just, it's this constant cycle of feeding violence and making violence become not just the norm, but something you actually look forward to and want. And unfortunately, Afghanistan has suffered with a lot of invasions starting from the Brits and then followed by the Soviets. And then the so-called civil war and then the Americans and the NATO for 20 years, it's a country that has been destroyed by invasions for so many years. and the people there have not seen rest, have not seen normal life.

It's very sad to see that the war has not let them be in peace ever, nor has destroyed that terrorism that was claimed. And we hope that the movie really conveyed that the forever war mentality was really a failure, and the foreign policy of the U.S. has to start to find a different way of really if their main goal, as claimed is to make the war war better, we have to find different ways of having to conduct war. What we saw is that war begets war begets war,

and violence only make. people more violent as it's happening in Afghanistan all over to war. No, and you show that several times in the movie where, you know, you'll show one person talking about how, you know, they lost their brother or as they say, their brother was martyred or their father was martyred. And it really does show how that, as you said, violence just begets more violence. And, you know, when we go into a country like that or when anyone does something like that and you you start killing people you don't pacify the country you create more violence there's a shocking story that happened in the movie but muctar was sitting with a younger soldier the

film was sitting with his dad and they were talking about the time when we joined the Taliban and we said they remember back then we only had five talibans in our village and today we have over 80 percent so that says a lot about the propaganda the Taliban used for the war to make themselves feeling the victims and to bring more people on to on to on to the people on to to their sides because there is an outsider enemy in the country for them. And this tool of propaganda is not just used by the Taliban, is used by any warlord that they are trying to convey their nations, that the war is the only solution for us to survive and feeding the people with fear. Absolutely. There's a chilling moment later in the film when Mansour, he's again looking

at the medical storage at Hollywood Gate. And at the beginning of the film, we see him say that the doctors need to go through all these medicines before they expire. And now it's like, I think, 10 months later. And this hasn't been done. All the medicine is still in the in the crates. And everything is expired. And he's mad because he had said he wanted this done. And somebody says the head doctor is lazy. And Mansour walks out and tells you to stop filming. And I was left thinking, did something not very nice happen to the head doctor at that point? Unfortunately, for the next three years, days I was waiting for something to happen and I was really waiting for something to operate the topic of medicine to film it, but not really. They just acted like it didn't happen. This is a tiring

way of dealing with things that when you do a mistake, you don't really pay attention to it. When you do something great, you glorify yourself. Something in the film that, and I was talking to you about this a little bit before we started recording, there's a scene where Montser is having to deal with sort of this mundane bureaucratic stuff. Someone brings him a bunch of paperwork to to sign that has to do with salaries and they're stamping the paperwork and he's signing it. And it's just as I'm watching it, I'm like, my God, this is so fascinating because it's not what you think of when you think of a Taliban commander. But as you point out in the movie, and as you said to me before we started airing, you know, well, this is just the reality. This is this is

stuff that has to be done. For us as a team, it was very important to show what I saw without trying to change and to show exactly the things I sold out trying to glorify or try to make them more of balance and part of this life that they have to do their administration. And it also shows how they are transforming over time from being just malicious into a proper military regime that is using weapons and thinking about invading other countries and is getting bigger and bigger and bigger while the world at the moment is not really caring about what's happening there. We don't hear about Afghanistan anymore.

the U.S. and the NATO have been there for 20 years of war. They claimed to save the people. They claim to make Afghanistan better. They claim to save the females from Afghanistan back today. They have left Taliban with all of these weapons and not really caring about what's happening there and trying to avoid anything that comes from there. And whenever you open the topic of Afghanistan, you don't really see people react to it anymore. Yeah, I mean, it's utterly shameful. We bear such a large responsibility for everything that's going on there. right now and that everything that's gone on since we left there's something you say in the film in voiceover you say the Taliban have learned propaganda and i thought that was such a really important thing for you to say

can you talk more about that as i told you earlier that you understand all the the rules of propaganda when i went there they understand what's a thing what is a thing what is shooting where what camera as you ask me what camera do you use they have their own team of media they are very present on on social media, they are using TikTok, they are using Facebook, they are not the people who we were told they are these behind their people that they don't understand anything about the world except killing you and no, they understand what's propaganda, and that's how they are increasing in number, that's how they are controlling Afghanistan today, banning a lot of channels as they want letting only specific narratives that goes around the country, and this only need, unfortunately,

the Afghans and a lot of suffering, and again, they were left in power. by the Western powers. They came into power with agreements, with whatever is happening, and there are no consequences of what's happening either. The West is not talking about it, are not really trying to find the solution to the situation in Afghanistan today. Yes. I'm curious what's next for the film. I know you're playing at the DC Docs Film Festival this weekend, I think Friday. What is next down the road for you on this? Are you looking, or do you have any chant at a wide distribution or for people to rent or buy at home. Where do you stand?

Soon there will be an announcement about the release of the movie in certain cinemas over the US. It will start around mid-July. So if you want to watch the movie, you can search online and maybe around the beginning of July, and they will find information about the release of the film in cinemas. And we're going in also in festival parlor. We're very, very thankful for all the festivals that I've been having the film. It has been a great trial so far.

And it shows how much people really care about delivering such a message and delivering this movie, which played in the beginning in Venice and Theroyard and Susan would have been over around 40 children festivals. I'm very, very happy to be here today and NBC to present the film tomorrow. That's excellent. And the movie is Hollywood Gate. I'm glad to hear that it's getting a theatrical release here in America because I would just encourage everyone to go see it. It was such a fascinating film and so powerful and just so important for us to see. here in America what we to a large extent created in Afghanistan and to not just memory

whole this and pretend like the Forever War never happened. Ibrahim Nashat, thank you so much for being here and I wish you continued success with this film and going forward. Thank you so much, Andy. It's lovely talking to you. Danny Moods? I hate that one. Andy Levy?

I don't like that one. Yeah, exactly. Danielle Moody. Yes. Close us out. Who is your Fuck That guy on this beautiful day in New York? And I can't imagine that anything in New York would get me down right now. Hold on to your hat, my friend.

Usually we don't do like super hyper local when it comes to our Fuck That Guys. You know, we like to be more nationally minded. But I could not help myself when looking on the Brokedown app called Twitter and seeing this. Andy. New York Governor Kathy Hokel said on CNN last night that she is considering a ban on masks. What? Yes. This is the reason why, Andy, I'm going to read you from the transcript of the CNN back and forth. Laura Coates says this. There is also a call. Some have talked about some Jewish leaders actually in New York are calling tonight for a mask van. saying that covering faces allows protesters to have some level of anonymity to be more aggressive,

to be more entitled to say what they want because they don't fear repercussions in the same way. Would you support that endeavor? Kathy Hockel responds. There was a ban on masks before the pandemic that you couldn't have face coverings that didn't serve a purpose. For example, a surgical mask for somebody who is elderly or ill. The pandemic removed that from our state law. It was repealed at the time, but I absolutely will go back and take a look at this and see whether it can be restored because it's frightening to people.

Do you know what was frightening to people, you fucking idiot? Was, oh, I don't know, watching refrigerator cars pull up in neighborhoods because that's how many people had died that there wasn't room at the morgue during the pandemic. And people deciding, still now, me being one of them that was on the subway recently and said, do you know what I'm going to do? Put on a mask because I don't like being in a closed compartment with a lot of motherfuckers breathing on me. God knows air from where. It is our business, what you put on your face. This right wing bullshit about masks and protests, it is a lie and a cover. But this woman who is governing in New York literally seems to fall for any fucking thing. so long as it's from the right wing.

I voted for her and I asked myself on a regular basis why the fuck I did that. Only because Lee Zeldon seemed like a Nazi in fucking dockers. But when I deal with this woman and the decisions that she makes on a regular basis, I want to scream, which I am doing right now. If people have a desire to wear a mask in public because, oh, I don't know, germs, fucking allergies, sickness, what have you? they should be allowed to do that. If I'm walking into a store, if I, because of COVID and watching so much death unfold

as we all did in New York, as we all did in this country, as we all did around the world, and now I take specific precautions to keep myself safe, and now you want to tell me that that's problematic because of some right-wing bullshit, fuck off. Like, I swear to God, Kathy Hockel cannot be more disliked by me. right now, then, oh, busting up the congestion pricing, which now I came to understand, by the way, oh, maybe I wouldn't like for the subway system every time that it rains to turn into the Atlantic Ocean. Maybe that wouldn't be such a great idea. Maybe it would be great if we had, I don't know, infrastructure that matched the century that we're fucking in.

Anyway, for that reason, this hyper-local fuck that guy is brought to you by me to Governor Kathy Hulk. In our defense, we have talked about mask bans in, I believe, places like Tennessee. Yep. So I think we're allowed to be a little hyper-local here. Sure. I could sit here and say that while you were talking, I googled COVID surge and found a bunch of headlines about rising COVID rates around the country and say that, mask ban is really stupid because of that. But I don't even care.

Pretend COVID never happened. You still have the right to wear a surgical mask over your nose and mouth in public if you want to. And again, yes, there are people who are immunodeficient. There are people who are sick themselves and are wearing a mask to prevent them from getting other people sick. I don't even care about all that. I don't care if you want to wear a fucking face mask because you feel like wearing a fucking face mask. I'm particularly talking about like, you know, an N95 or some kind of mask like that.

How is that not your right? How is that not your right to decide that, hey, I want to protect myself from the possibility of getting sick by wearing a mask? I hope to God that if she gets such a thing passed by the state legislature and signs it, that it's immediately challenged in court because I just, it would boggle my mind if this were constitutional. And quite frankly, it's at the very very least, it seems like a free speech issue to me. Mm-hmm. Look, she is the worst, and the only reason that you and I both, and I would assume Jesse as well, had to vote for her, is because of Andrew fucking Cuomo.

So all of this, on top of the many other hideous things he did while in office, this is all his fault. Kathy Hochel, she was Lieutenant Governor, but nobody knew who she was. Mm-hmm. And there was a reason for that. I learned how to pronounce her name after Cuomo stepped down and she took her. I was like, oh, Hotchel. Hotchel's our governor now.

And you're like, no. Hockel is our governor now. I would still not know how to pronounce her name if Andrew Cuomo hadn't been such an unethical piece of shit. So all of this is his fault. So fuck both of them. Andy Levy, now that I've shocked you, shock us with your close out to this week with your, fuck that guy. I don't even remember who it is anymore. I just want to talk more about horrible.

What shock is that? No, look, and by the way, this is a, it's another New Yorker, or I guess former New Yorker. It's a member of a presidential family. He is being looked at by a possible congressional inquiry. And you might think I'm talking about Hunter Biden, but I'm not because I do not care about Hunter Biden. I'm talking about Jared Kushner. Kushner has, and listeners probably know this, and I'm sure we're, we've talked about it on the pod. He's gotten a lot of money from Saudi Arabia since he's

left his perch for which he was totally unqualified for as part of Donald Trump's team. Senator Ron Wyden from Oregon, who's one of the best we've got, quite frankly, he is now demanding that Kushner and his company answer questions about their relations with foreign powers. And as reported by Salon.com, Wyden is suggesting that the evidence that he knows about suggests that a lot of these investments that the Saudis have given to Kushner and his company's smack of an influence operation. Wyden in his letter writes, Mr. Kushner's limited track record as an investor, including his non-existent experience in private equity or hedge funds, raises questions regarding the investment strategy behind the seeding

investments and lucrative compensation that his company received from the Saudis and other sovereign wealth funds. And yeah, Jared Kushner is a person with absolutely no qualifications other than he was born rich and he is now married to a Trump. And basically, that's my translation of what Wyden wrote in this letter, that Kushner's company, affinity, has been given tons of money, millions and millions and millions of dollars, maybe even hundreds of millions, maybe even billions. I believe it's actually two billion. Yeah. By the Saudi government and other foreign entities, despite having absolutely no experience in doing the things he is claiming he's going to do. So finally, a presidential son investigation that I can get behind.

We'll see where it goes from here, but, you know, good job by Ron Wyden to actually make this a thing, because it is a very real thing. And of course, with a very real chance that Donald Trump is going to end up back in the White House, this has ramifications for the country going forward, national security issues, et cetera, et cetera. Shout out to Ron Wyden, and a hell and hearty fuck that guy to Jared Kushner. God, it is great to be rich and white. That's all I have to say.

You need nothing else to be on your resume, except for that. I'm only one for two. I know. Sorry, Andy. Really. Get it together. It's so unfair. Ugh, fuck those guys.

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