The Daily Beast Podcast - The Real Reason Trump Backed Off Greenland: Wolff

Episode Date: January 23, 2026

Michael Wolff joins Joanna Coles to unpack why Trump’s latest global theatrics—from the Greenland takeover threat to the billion-dollar “peace board”—were never meant to happen at all. Drawing on Davos, disastrous polling, Minneapolis blowback, and Trump’s endless talent for distraction, Wolff explains how bluster without cost is the core of Trumpism: set fires, bask in the sirens, then walk away before consequences arrive. The question lingering after Greenland fades: Is this the moment the world finally stops chasing the fire engines, or is Trump already lighting the next match? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We should revisit this. This Greenland thing, he posted at night, everybody gets up in the morning, the world goes into a paroxysm of everything. The world is ending. We are some of the few people who said from the beginning, this means nothing. He is not going to take Greenland. This is meaningless. One of his aides said to me, you know, he sets these fires constantly,

but it's really not the fire that he focuses on. What he focuses on is the fire. fire agents rushing to put the fire out. Michael. Joanna. I feel like it's only, what is it, 10 hours since we were last together, at the 92nd Street. Why? And it was a good evening.

Well, do you sound so surprised? Well, I'm always surprised. I'm surprised when anything works out. But that certainly did. And now I feel disappointed that we're not on stage all the time. All the time. I know, all the time. It was so much fun to meet.

meet so many viewers and listeners. We really appreciate all your questions. We got over 50 questions from people, and we only got to five, so I thought we could get to some today. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it was a really good, a good crowd, a nice evening. You look very smart. You were not wearing, Michael, you can't see this,

but Michael is wearing maroon cords. Are those moleskin? I would say burgundy, but. Well, I would say maroon. and you were wearing a suit. I was. You look very smart. Thank you.

You think I should wear a suit for the podcast? No, but the thing about cardigans, one forgets, is that cardigans give you extra pounds. And when you were wearing the suit, I was like, oh, he's really spelt. You think I look at chubster? No, but I just think they're kind of slumpy cardigans. They're fantastic, and I love wearing them, but they are shlumpy.

No, but it's become your thing. It has. It has. It's become your thing. somebody was saying can you imagine Donald Trump in a cardigan and the answer is resoundingly no no I can't imagine Donald Trump naked either well actually I can well yes that's no I mean but Donald Trump is only in yes no yes Donald Trump is only in the suit those those 80s brioni suits.

Right, we're always in navy or gray. Yes, or the golf attire. Right, or his polo shirt. There's nothing between that. We've never seen him in anything else. No, he doesn't have normal leisure wear like other people. And he always wears a white golf shirt, doesn't he? I've never seen him in a dark golf shirt.

No, and there was a moment during the campaign. Do you remember when he went to Sneaker Con? I don't actually remember that. Yes, no, it was in Philadelphia, and somehow he went to SneakerCon because he had a line of sneakers. Oh, yes, the gold sneakers. They were like $400 with a gold star of something. And this is done by someone, you know, the minions, the commercial minions around him creating products. And he went to sneaker con.

He kept saying, what is this? What is this? Why are we going to this thing? And then he got there and he said, what are these? He said what are these when he held a sneaker? Exactly. That can't be true. No, well, what are these when he held his sneaker?

And then they said, oh, no, these are the Trump. These are Trump sneakers, which, of course, he's never worn. He's never worn any kind of leisure wear shoe other than golf shoes. Well, that's probably because he has to, as far as we know, remember how obsessed he was about putting his shoes back on after he was shot at in Butler, Pennsylvania. But then, and let's digress a little more. Because my favorite moment from SneakerCon was he was, I mean, he got an incredible reception, you know, with people suddenly shouting, shouting USA, USA. I mean, it's a really is a Trump crowd, the sneaker crowd.

And a guy came up to him afterwards and kind of muscle through us, the Secret Service, going, and he had a tattoo in the middle of his face. And Trump is looking at it. I mean, the guy is praising Trump. I love you, this and that. And Trump cannot take his eyes off this tattoo in the middle of the guy's face. Right.

And then finally, he interrupts the guy. And he says, he touches his arm. He says, how much would it cost to get that tattoo removed? What did the guy say? He looked flabbergasted, and like most people do, when Trump says these kinds of things to him. Right. There used to be a man that sat outside Charing Cross Station in London who had a tattoo of a spider on his face,

and the nose was the eyes and the head of the spider, and then the spider's legs went over his face. It was just extraordinary. I was always hoping to see him there, because it was just. just the most bizarre, freakish kind of look. And now that we have digressed. We've really digressed. Okay. And we have to get back to the most important things.

Trump's Board of Peace. We'll be talking about the Davos speech is Mark Carney, the new leader of the free world. The future for Europe. Terrible polling for Donald Trump. J.D. Vance going to Minneapolis to see if he can, well, he's got quite a lot on his plate because now he's got to negotiate the Greenland deal. Did you see Trump saying that to him? Well, J.D. Vans is going to do it.

And poor J.D. Vans. No, we have the fate of Greenland, which we're already forgetting about because it's already over. Right. And a chapter closed. Okay. Well, we're going to reopen the chapter, I think. And then we've got some questions that people had in the audience from yesterday that we didn't get to, some of which are really good. I'd like to get to the bad polling, too, because the polling is terrible.

No, it's terrible. It's terrible. And everybody's now just saying, well, the minute, the midterms, arrive. And also the economy is up and down. I would say the economy is down. Okay, the economy is down. The price of groceries are up. The stock market picked up yesterday, having taken a dip because of the uncertainty around Greenland. And the volatility is supposed to be baked in, but it still seems a bit volatile. Okay, so shall we start with his peace board, we woke up this morning to the fact that he'd had this press announcement for his peace board, joining fee a $100, no, joining fee a billion

dollars. This is the Mar-a-Lago of peace negotiations, whatever, whatever. The Mar-a-Lago billion, yes. The Mar-a-Lago billion. So he's trying to do his own peace board, and they were expecting or hoping for 35 countries to sign up. They've got fewer than 20. Carolyn Leavitt appeared to be the only person in the room, applauding

ferociously every time Donald Trump thanked one of the people. But so far the people two have joined Qatar, Saudi Arabia. None of the Western European companies have joined. Canada hasn't joined. This is humiliating for Trump. Putin's joined. Of course, Putin's joined. I mean, it's hard to say what is and what isn't humiliating for Trump.

You could go through his entire career and say everything is humiliation after humiliation, which he seems to cast aside. Well, I think it fuels him, doesn't it? I once read a line, and I don't know where this is from, which was, but I logged in my mind if you're willing to risk humiliation, the world is yours. And Trump does this again and again and again

and again. I mean, this peace board, what is this peace board? What is it supposed to do? What is it supposed Where does it fit in in diplomacy, international order, the international legal structure? It's just a kind of a PR thing, but not even a good PR thing. It's a... Well, and isn't it a further grift? I'm sure, yes, it's a further griff. Where does the billion go?

Yeah, exactly. Where does the billion go? Or does anyone actually pay the billion? Which is that other thing, you know, you know, all of these private clubs that are opening and they say, you know, it's a $350,000 entrance fee or initial fee that you have to have to pay. And then you have a little discussion. They say, well, 5,000 will do it. Yeah. Although, well, yes, but Hungary, Russia, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, they've all agreed to sign on. I have no idea if they're paying the billion dollars or not or if the billion dollars comes in terms of some sort of investment

in America. Right. Whatever the grift is, there is grift on top of grift here. So Trump is grifting whoever he can grift here, but these people who are supposed to pay the billion, they're also grifting. So it's a, in the end, in the end, it may not be anything. In the end, with so much, it just disappears. A bit like Greenland.

We will be saying you remember the Peace Board, Joanna. Or will it have just disappeared uninvested. And then we won't. We won't ever remember the Peace Board. Right, right. Just like we don't remember what an earth is happening to the East Wing. I mean, that's fallen off the agenda. But, but, but, but let's go back to the Davos speech because that was important.

And, I mean, to some extent, what you said about Greenland, that it meant nothing, that this was empty rhetoric, as actually Gavin Newsom said, it was full of fire and fury signifying nothing. Great quote there, but bringing in your book title, so that's good for you. That this was all just attention getting. I mean, we should revisit this. This Greenland thing, he posts it at night.

Everybody gets up in the morning. The world goes into a paroxysm of, of everything. The world is ending. We are some of the few people who said from the beginning, this means nothing. He is not going to take Greenland. He is not going to apply these tariffs.

This is meaningless. The only meaning here is that this is a new Trump chapter, which will close. He's going to squeeze this for all of the attention. He can get of all of the stern and drung that the world is going to offer up to him. And it is really an offering to him because it's attention. Right. And it takes the heat off Epstein and the slow drip drip drip of the release of the Epstein files.

It takes the emphasis off the economy, which the grocery basket is going up in price. It takes the emphasis off ice and what's happening and the extra 3,000 people. Minneapolis, Minneapolis. Yeah. So this is a distraction technique which now, I mean. But it's a distraction technique, but I don't want to, because people, I think people understand this.

He distracts from whatever happened yesterday, he distracts with whatever happens today. but the distraction in itself whatever he does also has this value to him which is attention that's what he wants he is one more day at the center of the world okay and give the anecdote that you gave or the or the description of him that you mentioned at 92nd street why last night about the fire engines you know somebody one of his aides said to me and you know the interesting thing about about the people around him is that they are not blind to who he is and what he is and the mystery often of what keeps Trump's, what keeps Trump in power. But one of his aides said to me, you know, he sets these fires constantly, but it's really not the fire that he's, that he focuses on. What he focuses on is the fire engines rushing to put the fire out. So it's the noise and the lights and the drama. He's addicted to the drama.

Exactly. And Susie Wiles famously said in Vanity Fair recently, oh, he's got an alcoholic's personality, i.e. he's an addict. He doesn't drink as far as we know, but he's addicted to attention. Right. And I want to say because a lot of people said,

oh, that was revealing. And she, that was a mistake on her part. And she, in a devastating comment, it's what he says. and he says it all of the time. I'm like, proudly. And to interpret it, he says, I'm like an alcoholic. But because he doesn't drink, this somehow gets to be an insight into himself

and at the same time a pat on the back. There was an incredible photo yesterday while he's giving his Davos speech, which I want us to get to, of his henchmen in the front row. and there's Susie Wiles looking down, there's Scott Besant, who's gone on the attack over Gavin Newsom in a very unbesentian way, and it doesn't behoove him, I think, to do that. And then Marco Rubio,

and Marco Rubio is just sitting like this, and Besant and Susie Wiles are looking down. Trump is mid-insulty speech. He's just insulting, firing off insults to absolutely everybody, and they just look like, oh, my God, we're going to have to clear this up. Yeah, no, no, I mean... I think of them as the clean.

now that they have to come in and clean it up. J.D. Vance has to sort out the contract for Greenland. And, you know, remember when Trump was asked who's going to run Venezuela and they were having the press conference and he looked at Mark of Rubio and Excess? A remarkable what the fuck moment on the part of everybody there. And no matter how they are prepared for Trump's madness, they were not prepared for that. And you could see the horror and shock descending over them, the slight pailing of the skin as they realized they were going to be left with his mask. No, you know, and I think more and more, and it's this interesting thing because we're in this new phase in which he is looking outward, this international phase. And I think Trump doesn't

know anything about anything, but he knows even less about anything outside of the American borders. I mean, he doesn't even know where things are. Right. Right. And, and, and, and, And I think that this starts to become clearer and clearer. I mean, there was, what was this just last week, the Iran thing, and he was going to rescue the Iranian protesters. Right, help is on the way, is what he said. Help is on the way. Exactly. And it was an explicit threat.

If you kill these protesters to the mullahs this was, if you kill them, I'm coming after you. You'll have to deal with me. But then they proceeded to kill them by the thousands. and of course he could do nothing because he knows nothing about this situation. And essentially the world suddenly went into another paroxysm and said, you know, these guys, the mullahs are on the verge of extinction here. If you threaten them, they will take us all down. So unless you have a specific plan here, please, please.

please don't do this. And of course he retreated. And as happened now in Greenland, he doesn't know what he doesn't know what he's doing. He doesn't know what he doesn't know. He doesn't know how to proceed as soon as anyone raises a complicating detail. Well, and as you always make the point, he doesn't read any briefings, he doesn't listen to any briefings. And as you're always saying, this is an informational heavy job. You would want the president to be able to take in information. And so he doesn't even know the situation with Greenland, which is that we already have access to it.

The U.S. actually took bases out of Greenland because they didn't want to pay for them. We have every right to expand our military bases there if we so wish. No, and that's why, so Marco Rubio, who is a professional. I mean, I don't want to praise Marco Rubio, too much. But, but... Don't let's do a Tony DeCopal.

Remember where he did that at the end of NBC News? A CBS News, sorry, and he went Marco Rubio, we salute you as a true Floridian. You were like, oh, no, no. But Marco Rubio has been doing this job for quite some time, is, has sat on the appropriate committee, has listened, has, has sat through the appropriate powerpoints, which Trump never does. You know, it's a kind of, kind of, it's a profound.

understanding within the White House, no PowerPoints. Well, I'm with Trump on that. I hate PowerPoint. And he does a, they, they put up a PowerPoint and generals are always putting up powerpoints. He's out the room in 90 seconds. So, but Mark, so Marco Rubio is a relative in this bunch, a leading professional. And so going into this with Trump, knowing nothing, putting, taking steps based on knowing nothing. It is Marco Rubio who's left with having to clean this up. Right. So let's get to...

Which is why he likes Heg-Seth more than Marco Rubio. Because Heg-Sys doesn't know anything either. Right. And also Heg-Sids. No way in hell, Hagseth is going to get his head around this stuff. I mean, Trump really likes people who know nothing. So interesting. Well, because they can't challenge him, I suppose. All right, please can we get to the devil. speech where he managed to... Remember Natalie Harp? We haven't been...

We haven't talked about Natalie in a long time. Was she in Davos? She's always with him everywhere. Can we get to the speech? Please can we get to the speech? Mark Carney set it up the night before as this is a rupture in the world order as we know it. Lindsay Graham was faffing around telling everybody that the world order hadn't worked for the last 80 years and NATO was

basically a waste of time, which you think Lindsay doesn't mean. No, I mean, doesn't mean this at all. He just means... He just wants to be near power. Yeah. Trump, Trump, yeah. You mean, he's just in awe of Trump? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a kind of a... I will just say, for the record, he is unmarried. Yes.

Meaning he's a happy bachelor. Well, he's a happy bachelor. All right, please, let's get to the Davos speech. I'm now thinking that you didn't even listen to the Davos speech. I did, I did. Because you're deflecting so much. You're deflecting. And I did, but, and I will say, I have heard it before.

Right. I mean, I have, you know how many Trump speeches I have listened to at this point in the course of 10 years? And they are all remarkably similar. Their digression upon digression upon digression, their grievance upon grievance upon grievance. Their insult upon insult upon insult. I mean, the thing about that speech, I mean, that was so interesting is that there is not, we're just, discussing this last night, there's not one thing in the speech that is true. I mean, not, I mean, this is not a question of just fact-checking. This is a question of nothing. Everything in that speech is off by a considerable factor. So if you listen to that speech, and it was really a speech about his first year in office, which has just come to an end. And the vision here, the reality inversion was that everything had gone spectacularly well,

beyond it had turned out beyond anyone's imagination of how good, good can be. I mean, there is no level of hyperbolic exaggeration that this speech did not reach. Everything, he had done a miracle. Everything in the United States, a utopia. It had all come together. History had come together at this moment in time for the United States. And then he went on to Europe where everything, it was the darkness at noon, everything had failed. Europe was closing down, closed, finished, over with. It's not what it was.

It's not what it was because his friends, he says, I have friends who go to Europe and they tell me it's not what it was. What was that? I don't know, but there was, I remember within the White House, the aides around him, he often evokes a friend who went to France once. And people say, who? Who's that friend? I mean, this is also, his worldview is basically formed between Mara Lago, and it used to be New York, right?

But the Florida worldview is different. I don't know. I mean, the European thing is, again, that elites, People who go to Europe are not my people. They look down on me. I don't go to Europe. And he does. He is a person, a remarkably untravelled person before coming into the White House.

Well, except he has his gold course in Scotland. He goes to a lot of way to. Yeah, he went to, yeah, he goes to his properties, but he doesn't travel like most people at a certain, you know, social or economic level, travel. He doesn't. Well, he's not curious about the world. He's not curious about other people. He's not curious about other landscapes. He likes what he knows, where

he can be king. Exactly. Good God. Did you just agree with me? I did. Very, very unusual. Where he could be king. Where he could be king. When he arrived in Davos yesterday, I was going to say Zermak because I had skiing on the brain.

Do you go and skiing? No, I'm not going skiing because I'm about to get an extra hip. Well, not an extra hip. I'm about to get another hit replacement, so I'm definitely not skiing this year. But when he arrived, did I miss that into that chapter in your life? You might have missed that chapter in my life, but it extended one. That might have been when we were having our feud, although I've skied for what the last 20 years, so we haven't fued it for 20 years. Maybe I just never told you because I knew you wouldn't approve. Anyway, when he arrived and he came very gingerly down the steps from Air Force One,

someone had managed to carve out on the hill above Davos, no kings in snow. They'd brilliantly just written it in snow, which was very effective, very big. Everybody was taking pictures of it. And then another very good mean that was going around online that several people sent me was Trump mid-speech and then pressed to mute over his mouth. I would have said it should have said no mad kings. No mad kings. Yeah, true.

All right. So I thought was... Kings are not so bad. Well, King Charles is looking a hell of a lot better than King Trump. I thought the interesting thing in the speech was when he decried other countries for being stupid, especially over, you know, green technology. And then he said about himself, I'm very, very smart. First of all, no smart people would ever say that. And secondly, to me, that was just such an...

insight into his biggest anxiety about himself, which is he knows he's not very smart. It doesn't mean that he's not been successful because now he's king of the world, but oddly, he clearly doesn't feel smart. Jeffrey Epstein went in the question about what does Putin have on Trump. Jeffrey Epstein said he has his college transcripts. He has his college transcripts. And a word from our sponsors. And Michael Wolfe and I are back inside Trump's head.

He went to Wharton and studied finance, right? Wharton undergraduate. He went to Wharton undergraduate. Please, please, someone access those transcripts. Where are they? No, he has threatened, in the first administration, he threatened Wharton if they were released in any shape or form. I'm sure that they are under various... Do you think they even still have them?

Do you think they even still have them? They may have gotten rid of them because it's so too hot to handle. I think they've gotten rid of them because nobody... But Epstein thought Putin has gotten those, and that's what he holds over him, because the transcripts are terrible. I bet that Penn has just lost them, because over years of filing and trying to digitize things,

stuff goes missing. Nobody has stuff from 50 years ago, And this is the Smithsonian, and even now the Smithsonian is having to rewrite. Well, you know, but... If there's anyone at Wharton who can get us access to those transcripts, please, please do. Or maybe we have to go to Russia and talk to Putin. All right, so we've digested the speech. But anyway, your point is, yes, that this is a very serious thing.

His intelligence, the idea that people are smarter than he is. I mean, when I published Fire and Fury, I mean, I was the one who started to talk about his level of intelligence, and then he came out and said, I am a very stable genius. Right, right. And he's neither. He's instable, unstable, and he's not a genius. It's just fascinating the way he gives it away. And then poor old Macron, Macaron has an eye infection, turns up with these, frankly, very cool blue shades,

which adds a frisson to the whole double. experience and Trump goes after him and he's like, what that hell happened? Because those, that glasses, that moment earned Macron attention. Right, right. And then he went after Mark Carney and just said, remember Canada, you don't exist without us because Mark Carney's speech had gotten attention the night before. And Mark Carney's thinner and smarter. Yeah, no. I mean, that was an impressive speech actually, you know, in a moment where there are an attuned many impressive speeches.

Yep. Yep. And then Trump disappeared with the head of NATO, Mark Rutter, and they finessed something so that the Greenlanders are now free again. Right. So, but the news in that, in that speech was that we're not going to send in, we're not going to attack Greenland. You know, so after two weeks of we're going in, we're taking it, you can't, you can't stop us the easy way. or the hard way, we're not going to do anything. And, you know, I mean, it's always interesting to figure out the moment, the tipping point moment of how Trump gets out of these things. And I think that moment, somebody explained to him that actually people would be killed,

which is the other thing, that he's the strong man, he's the dominant figure, he's going to do anything. We're going to do it the easy way or the hard way, but he doesn't want anyone to be killed. So this is all in this narrative of dominance, but dominance without cost, dominance just based on pronouncements. Right, right. And we're recording this on Thursday morning. We don't know the results of the conversation he had with Vladimir, Vladimir Zelensky, which he had this morning. and then he walked out and it looked like he was about to go straight back onto Air Force One without giving a press conference, which as we know is unusual for him. So who knows if they had a good meeting or not? We don't know as of recording.

All right, so he's got bad polls, and then, of course, he's sending J.D. Vance now to Minneapolis. Yeah, I mean, Minneapolis still is that, I mean, it's bad. You know, I mean, of all the things, and you sort of look at this, and say the economy itself, the economy is bad. He can't seem to improve it. It just doesn't move. Jobs are down. Prices are up, at least prices in terms of the price range that affects most Americans on a daily basis.

And that has to do with housing prices and food prices. he can't move them. This will defeat him or will defeat the Republicans in November. And it also looks like the Supreme Court is going to say that he can't decide that Lisa Cook, who's on the board of the Fed, should be terminated. Right, right. But so the point, he, so we're, we go into this election year with that as the baseline, in economy that will defeat him and defeat the Republicans. But now we've, added to that this Minneapolis thing, which gets worse and worse and worse. It is, you know, it has become something of the ground zero in resistance to Donald Trump. This, the, the cruelty of these

guys, the ice guys, the inexperience, the, and then the fact that that Trump is promising them immunity, the insurrection act. He's just doubling down. on everything that makes this worse. And then he's done this, this interesting thing has happened that Minneapolis, not that many weeks ago, was a real vulnerability for the Democrats. I mean, they had a growing scandal there,

which was affecting a whole range of prominent Democrats. Well, Tim Walts announced he's the governor, and of course, Carmelah Harris's vice presidential running mate last year, that he's no longer going to stand for election again at the end of his term. Right. And Keith Ellison, the Attorney General there, Ilya and Omar, who has, Trump has a personal thing against, it was shaping up as an issue that could carry, that the Democrats could pay off for the Republicans in a substantial way.

And this was a scandal about childcare and the fact that the welfare system was being bilked by Crooks. Right. Okay. That ray of light for the Republicans is now gone. When you say Minneapolis, we thought of scandal. Now when we say Minneapolis, we think of Renee Good. So again, this Trump thing of just shooting himself in the foot, he is self-destructive. That there is no, and it's important to understand this, that this is a guy. In this political role, obviously, who has to be attentive, he only succeeds, one would think, if the politics of this work to his advantage. But that's never really on the top of his mind. What's on the top of his mind is the moment today, what I do. I send troops into Minneapolis because I'm the strong man. A woman gets killed there, then I have to double down on that. She deserved to do that. Now he's obviously

more recently trying to back out of that and perhaps that's what Vance is there. Perhaps he said or perhaps other people in the Republican Party said this is we've got to solve this problem. Well maybe J.D. Vance is doing that by offering

up another child with Ushavans. Congratulations Ushavans. You're pregnant again. Fourth child. I wish I'd had four children actually but not with J.D. Vance. I have five. You have five children? Wow, that's a lot. Well, men can have a second family. It's harder for women. Anyway, I wish I'd have more children. Ushavans, you can have it all, except that, not with J.D., not with J.D. Vance. Yeah, I have nothing to say to that. All right. Well, J.D. Vance is going to Minneapolis.

Is he going to have any impact whatsoever? I don't know. You know, last week they were sending in, I mean, there was the insertion. Act and we were sending in 3,000 troops. Well, they haven't actually deployed the insurrection act. They've just talked about. Exactly, exactly. But that's an interesting thing if they're backing off from that. And I suspect at this point they want to back off from that.

And remember, it is the Trump. What is the Trump method here? It's that we won't remember this. It goes away. He'll add something else on top of this. Minneapolis goes away. I mean, I find it difficult to imagine that it could go away because it is very bad. But Trump manages that.

Everything goes away except... Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. So, just before we come to Epstein and the Clintons, which I really want to talk to you about, the Supreme Court said that he couldn't send troops into Portland, Oregon, Chicago, I think New York, right? they said no. Oh, L.A. L.A., Portland, Chicago.

So now he's sending them to Portland, Maine. I wonder if that's to punish Susan Collins for her dithering, although she always comes down on his side. What do you think? Or do you think it's just, well, we can't go to Portland, Oregon, we're going to go to Portland, Maine?

He doesn't probably know the difference. He says, Portland, it's called Portland anyway. Just send them in. So I suspect more ice problems. to come. Because there's also a Somali community. No, I mean, there will clearly be more ice problems. I mean, you have an inexperienced police force with functionally unlimited power. What's that going to add up to? That's going to add up to people getting hurt. And led by Ice Barbie herself, Kristinaum, ultimate sycophant. Yeah, I mean, led by Donald Trump. I mean, it's him. Nobody else.

Nobody else except Stephen Miller are led by Stephen Miller. So you have two crazy people leading this. No other person, even Ice Barbie, would actually want to do this because the risks are so high. Except so you need a crazy person. You need a crazy person, yes. All right. So let's come to Epstein. The Oversight Committee has said they're going to have Gillen Maxwell appearing before them,

I think on February the 10th, February the 11th. And they've also... And how does she appear? In chains? I think in some sort of pale green suit from Camp Brian where she is. But in this is not a... She's not testifying publicly. Is she?

I don't know. We need to know more about it. Can we find out? We'll find out by the next podcast, which will be on Saturday. Good God, they roll around quickly. Anyway, I'm dying to know what Gala. And Maxwell's going to say. But we know what she's going to, because she's already testified.

All she's got in her sights is a pardon, right? All she wants to do is prostrate herself. Prostate, Freudian slip there with Gillen to get out of jail. Exactly. So, I mean, yes, she has her mission. Now, is she being called by the Republicans or the Democrats? We should know this. I'm assuming that she's being called by the Democrats.

Okay, let's find this out. Now, she will be called, I am going to call her in the Melania suit. Oh, you are, excellent. We'll come to the Melania suit, but the Clintons, the Clintons have defied the subpoena for them. They're saying that they don't need to appear before. They've written an eight-page letter to the oversight committee, saying we really don't have any more details than what's in this letter.

And you haven't even released the Epstein files properly. yet, so why should we come before you? All extremely reasonable. And why should they, that couple, come before the committee to testify Epstein about Epstein when there is another couple who is far more versed in Epstein, Epstein, Epstein, than the Clintons are, which would be, of course, Mr. and Mrs. Trump. Right. but interestingly, some Democrats demanded the Clinton's appear to.

This isn't just a Republican thing. Yeah. Tell me where you're going with this. I'm just curious that they would do that because it seems so politically driven. And yet, of course, Bill Clinton, there are lots of photos of Bill Clinton with Gilem Maxwell and with Jeffrey Epstein. And we know that Gilem was very involved at the beginning of, of the Clinton Global Initiative,

where, of course, Jeffrey Epstein was generous with his plane. If I had a plane, I would be generous with it, too. Would you say? I would. Maybe. Maybe. There was a guy, the guy I know who has a plane who said, you know, he always felt guilty about the plane, having the plane, and when he used it, he felt that he had to always ask other people on it, but then he had to talk to them all the time.

Well, that's, yes. So he would rather just go first class. Except you have to go through the airport. The point of having a private plane is you avoid all that nightmare of security and putting your laptop through the thing. Everything's a trade-off when you have money. Yeah, and I will say the friends whose planes I've been on, they often say, I'm now going to sleep.

I don't want you to talk to me, which is fine, because I often don't want to talk to them either. You just want the lift. But they feel bad about that. I don't think they feel bad about that. I think they're just like fine. Anyway, I can't believe we're having this conversation. Do you feel sorry for him, Trump?

It was one of the questions that we didn't have time to get around to last night. You know, when I have been with him, I confessed to having a feeling of empathy for him. And I don't know where it comes from. and it's certainly unbidden. But I've felt it. I feel when I'm with him, or on certain occasions a kind of vulnerability.

To Donald Trump. Yeah. I mean, and I didn't want to feel this, and I kind of pushed it back, but there is something that he wants something out of you, some approval, some... Right. That he still never...

going to be invited to the thing he wants to be invited to. Some something. And I felt it. And I felt I would have, I was almost tempted to give it if I knew exactly what he wanted, but he doesn't exactly know what he wants. Well, what would that be like a hug? Does he hug people? No. Shakes hands? No. Right. He doesn't do either of those things. And ever great a commercial break. And I'm back with the Donald Trump chronicler, Michael Wolfe, and we are, where else, inside Trump's head. His bruises on his hands were looking really dramatic in Davos.

Really dramatic. I don't know if he'd had an IV on the plane. Do you think that Melania will remarry if Donald dies? You're asking me questions. These are some of the questions that came up last night. These are questions from last night. We only had time to get to about five of them, but there was so many good questions. Yeah, I have no idea if she'll, I mean, I mean, there's, there's always been talk about it, Malani, what is, what is actually her private life?

I mean, it's a, it's a marriage that, you know, only exists in the, in the most peculiar sense. I mean, they don't really live together. They don't really spend much time together. So does she have another life? a parallel life, I don't know. Well, we know she spent a lot of time with her parents. Yes, obviously, but I mean a parallel romantic life. Is she prepared when Donald Trump departs to begin a new life?

She's a young woman. I don't know. Well, leading on from that question, a J.D. Vance presidency may be inevitable, not by will of voters, but of Trump's death. What does the world look like from that day on? You know, it looks like a much more normal place. I mean, J.D. Vance is, I mean, he seems like a kind of a semi-toxic person to me, but he's a recognizable person. He's a political person.

He's a guy who wants to achieve and get ahead and believes that what other politicians believe that he can. if he does the right things, he can be a winner, which is unlike Donald Trump, who is perfectly sanguine in thinking that he can do all the wrong things and still be a winner. Right. Okay.

Okay, here's another question that leads on from that. In the Trump world narrative, you detail, what's the fate of loyalists like Hegsseth and Bondi? You know, it's an interesting thing. because it's a bad fate. I mean, it ends in tears for all of these people. In the first administration, throughout Donald Trump's career, no one has, you know, hardly anyone has benefited from a relationship with Donald Trump. Number one, he, in the end, he does not wish them well. In the end, he thinks always they're benefiting or they might benefit at a

cost to him. And, I mean, clearly they don't at this point in time help their own reputations. So why are they doing this? Can they possibly be blind to this outcome? I don't know, but it won't end well. They will not advance beyond this. And the chances are that they will be publicly humiliated, indicted not good why do people do this because people are delude themselves

well and people want proximity to power don't they sometimes and as you've always well they don't want proximity to they want proximity to power because of

because of the advantage that will give them if it gives them if it is at a cost the thing is how can they not appreciate the of the examples

all of the examples, which would indicate that the cost is great. Right. And of course, these people, as you've often pointed out, would never be in a normal cabinet. This is their opportunity. And I suppose that's probably the answer that, you know, Pete Hegseth, the co-host of a weekend television show, is now the Secretary of Defense, Secretary of War. In what world could that other have happened, only Donald Trump's world. Donald Trump's world. So it's a deal with, you can understand it as a deal with the devil.

So talking about reality distortion fields, Donald Trump's world, the designer, Valentino, died this week. I happened to be shopping in Bergdorf-Gubman when the news came out, so it felt very appropriate, that I was in the temple of luxury fashion, where I was actually trying to get some bargains in the sale. But it reminded me of a story when I took over the editorship of Marie Claire Valentino was celebrating his 40th anniversary. I went to Rome for it. It was very glamorous party. We digress a lot in this podcast, but this may be the ultimate digression.

Well, it's a bit of a digression, but it comes back to a point which is about the news. So anyway. All good digressions. All good digressions. Yeah, yeah, there is a point. Although often you forget the point. I forget the point. Fashion and politics, there's a sort of, well, whatever.

So, huge party in Rome. I am a new editor, and so I'm invited to meet and have an audience with Mr. Valentino, as his people call him. And just as I'm about to go in and see him, Carlos DeSuzza, who is his PR person at the time, says to me, please, Joanna, before you meet the Mr. Valentino, do not mention the war in Iraq. So this is 2006. We've had 9-11, 2001. We have at this point been in Iraq for the last three years, 2003. And so I'm thinking, do not mention the war in Iraq. Okay, this must be because Mr. Valentino has had some sort of relative who's died in it. Maybe he's had a nephew who's signed up. I don't want to trigger him. So I said, no, no, I won't mention the war on Iraq. But is there any specific reason why not? And they literally say to me, He doesn't know about it. And I was like, what?

So I say, how can he not know about the war in Iraq? It's been going on for three years. Does he not see it in the newspapers? Do you cut it out from the newspapers? And they say to me, Mr. Valentino is a man of beauty. He must live in the world of beauty. No bad news. And I thought to myself, oh, at the time, I thought that's absolutely crazy.

These designers are crazy. Now I have much more sort of sympathy. for that point of view. And I'm struck by how many people tell me they're just in deep news avoidance, that they know things like Greenland are Trump, just making stuff up for attention. They're not going to give him the attention.

They don't understand why world leaders give him the attention. This is all nonsense. And I actually came around to thinking, if you are Valentino and you're creating things of beauty, actually, maybe you don't want this insanity in your life. Well, I have two things. First, to applaud your accent. Thank you. Thank you.

But the other thing, I think I can bring this... We're supposed to be Italian if people were wondering what it was. I think I can bring this back to a more direct relationship to what we're talking about. People don't tell Trump bad news. Remember, you know, it's the whole thing. Everything that happens, everything that he's thinking is filtered through people who will only say to him what he wants to hear. And so he can, he can, they'll gladly eliminate all kinds of things in the news that other people might, might affect the decision-making process. But I thought he was watching television all the time. So obviously he's got Fox on, but you've, you've described it as him having sort of eight televisions on all time. But the television, you know, much of the television is, is, and especially Fox,

is geared to what he wants to hear. So the other thing, the intelligence, let's assume, I mean, I think, I mean, we certainly assume and believe that the United States has an enormous amount of information and intelligence that is coming through on the state of the world and what's going on and all of the information that a president needs to keep us safe. Much of that he's not getting, A, because it's two. too detailed and he can't pay attention to it. But but B

because he lives in a very circumscribed world and the people around him don't want to they don't want to disturb that. And also he just doesn't know

shit. So I will let me I will match your story. So I was the first time I interviewed Trump in his political life, which was in 2016. It was two weeks before the Brexit vote. And so I'm sitting with him, and this is in his house in Beverly Hills, and we're eating the ice cream.

And I say to him, so what's your feeling about Brexit? And he says the immortal words, huh? And I am, actually I kind of a little panic at this point. And I said, you know, the Brits are voting to possibly leave the EU, really, he says. He just didn't know about it. And then we're looking at each other. Then he says, I'm for it. Wow.

Wow. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, shall we end with the limerick? I think we ought to end. with a limerick. Garfried has been particularly prolific. Garfried, thank you, Gary Freed. While Ukraine still burns unresolved, his day one deals all dissolve. He pivots with flair from

Greenland to air till each new distractions evolved. Better and better. Better and better. Here is a good one from Marcia Burk-Hare's. I read this at 92nd Street-Wye. And this is a high queue because we're now getting all sorts of poems in so not just limerings. All genres. All genres. Midnight bulldozers destroy our constitution. Let none of us sleep. I thought that was a good one.

And then here is one, I don't think this is his real name, done gone. There once was a joker named Trump, who looked like a cowering lump. As he opened his mouth, only hot air came out and smelled like he just took a dump. I don't think we can top that. I don't think we can top that. If you have been, thank you for joining us. We'll be back on Saturday. Feel free to leave us a comment on YouTube.

We love your comments. We read them. I try and answer them as much as I can. And also join in the live chat. When we launch our podcasts at 9 o'clock, we really see the Daily Beast community coming together. And it's so exciting. One or two of you actually seem to know each other.

It's great. Sandra Clark, you seem to be pivotal to the community. Thank you for that. We've also got some books for you to sign from people. And while you're doing that, very exciting. While you're doing that, I'm going to read another high cue, this one from Lillia. And she calls it a Trump high queue on tweeting. Midnight fingers fly, losing war against grammar. I'm mid-hikew. And I just have to point out that books when you sign, you're supposed to sign them on the title page. There's few things that I've learned as an author, but I've learned that. Okay, you said that last time you were on. I think it's about increasing the value for the reader. I'm now going to read the high cue again from Lillia. Midnight fingers fly, losing war against grammar, sanity on mute.

Sanity on mute. Okay, we've got one more book to sign. Thank you for your poems. Don't forget to subscribe to The Daily Beast. We are independent media, so we really appreciate your support. Leave us a comment. and what else? Join us again on Saturday when we'll be back at 2 o'clock on Saturday on YouTube

and at midnight wherever else you get your podcasts. See you then. See you then. Joanna, hi. I have to tell you about something that we're obsessed with. I'm Kevin Fallon. And I'm Matt Wilstein. And we are hosting Obsessed the podcast about all the TV shows, movies, and entertainment

newsmakers that we're all obsessed with. So make sure you subscribe to us on YouTube at the YouTube channel. Make sure you follow us wherever you get your podcasts. Just search for Obsessed the podcast. And we will see you there. Be Beast. Big thanks to our special Be Beast tier of members. Here they are.

Yvette Johnson, Methink, Spatio Farrell, Mills and Lins, Shelby, Max Kubit, David Sherry, Thomas Moore, Maria Voltain, D. Kujewatz, Sinia Lunge, H. Overrocker, Deb K. Ostrander, Sandra Clark, travels with Carl, Andrew Beaver, Cappinator. Harry Clark, Dawn McCarthy, Daniel Dog Lover, M. Griner, D. Stone, Fulvia, Orlando. Herbie, Andrew Meller, Tatnell, Val, Love Francisco, Will Hutchison, Andrea Hodel, Bocock, D.C., Sharon Shipley, Connie Rutherford, Karen White, and last but never least, Heidi Riley. production team, Devin Rogerino, Ryan Murray, Rachel Pasa, and Heather Pissarro. Want more great listens?

Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to the DailyBeast.com slash membership slash podcast and sign up today.