The Daily Beast Podcast - The ‘Real Ways’ MAGA Is Now Breaking With Trump

Episode Date: October 19, 2025

Michael Wolff joins Joanna Coles to dissect Trump’s euphoric “victory tour” of the Middle East, where he cast himself as a global peacemaker while ignoring protests and chaos at home. Wolff unpacks Trump’s boastful talk of “Tomahawks for peace,” and the widening rift between Trump and his MAGA base. Both wonder why the “no kings” protests aren’t aimed at Epstein and the powerful men who enabled him. As his self-image balloons beyond control, Joanna and Michael ask: has Trump’s triumphalism become its own form of delusion? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is part of the split that is going on in MAGA. I mean, a split that I see increasing on an almost daily basis. The implicit promise to MAGA was America First a profoundly isolationist policy. We do not want American troops anywhere. We don't want American money anywhere. We don't want it. And certainly during the first administration showed a real inclination to turn away from the world. In this administration, A, the world,

has caught up with him, it is very difficult to turn away from. And also, it turns out he loves it. This is very confusing because it's actually Saturday and we're going on a weekend jaunt, which makes no sense. No King Saturday. No King Saturday. Yes, it's No King's Saturday. And we are here in the studio, well, we're recording this on Friday for Saturday, because I guess by popular demarcated, we are doing a third episode. What do you mean, sour face, popular demand? No. By popular demand, people in the streets.

People in the streets. We're doing an extra episode of... No, no, no, we're not just doing an extra episode. We have expanded from twice a week to three times a week. And so from Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays inside Trump's head. Okay, but a weekend trip. I feel like it should have a different vibe. For example, normally you're wearing a suit jacket,

but today you've got, well, it's dressed down Friday. So you're wearing a cardigan, one of your famous cardigans. I've worn a suit jacket once on all of the shows that we've done. No, that's true. You wore sort of linen jacket, a linen jacket. But there was a lot of comment on Thursday or possibly Tuesday's episode because it turned out we had randomly color coordinator. for fall we were both in brown yeah and the um the cardigans as as you say this it's it's it's the fall

it's the autumn yeah we haven't seen is most of the episodes we've done over the summer so so the point is that was linen not only will you be getting extra content you're going to be getting extra knitware extra knitwear okay so where are we going and why just remind people we don't have to spend a lot of time on it because regular people will know but for new people. Because I lecture on why we're doing this. I don't think you lecture and I actually don't think you mansplain, but I do think it's good context for people as to why we're doing this. We are going inside Trump's head and we are going there because that's where literally everything happens in American politics, which is not customary. It usually happens in agencies, in Congress,

in... Think tanks. Yes. There are all kinds of external things. factors that influence what's going on. Now, and it is extraordinary, the only thing, singular, the only, I mean, the exclusive thing that has any bearing on anything is what's inside Trump's head. So what is inside Trump's head this weekend, Michael, as we look at the spread of no King's protest? Well, I think... Can I think... Can I also just say one thing, and now we're going to get 100 comments saying I interrupt you. No King's protest is a weird title. It's a negative title. Well, also, what's it about? Who's it directed towards?

It seems abstract in some overly creative sense. Right. And also it feels like it should be King's protest, except, of course, we don't want King, and that's the point of America. We left the King. But it just seems. Also, King, to be perfectly honest, King has a kind of quaint sound to it. Right. So it should be called something else, I think would be more effective, is why don't they say, release the Epstein Files protest? No, I think totally a brilliant idea. I mean, that's fantastic. But it also, it's just not that it's just in the negative.

It is for what? there is what is the protest against against a king, I suppose Donald Trump's king. It doesn't, it doesn't resonate. But yes, Epstein. Release the Epstein files protest. Everybody come to Washington. Ten million people. It's bipartisan issue.

Let's do it. How can we organize it? We're not organizers. We're journalists. We just sit here. We just chat. We just talk. We just talk.

But somewhere out there is an organizer. Yeah. Release the Epstein Files protest. Everybody come to D.C. It doesn't matter what your party affiliation is. We all want to know what's in the Epstein files. Come on Dan Bonjino. Come on, Kash Patel.

You know what's in them. But we want to know too. I don't want to knock this. It's great. Well, it's an important moment. Across the country, people turning out in their communities to say, what the fuck. And I think that that is, I mean, obviously that is good. The question is, does it have an effect? Does it, I mean, what's inside Trump's head? This protest, no King's protest, is not

inside Trump's head. Well, do we know that? Because we do know that he has a thing about crowd size because he made up the size of his inauguration crowd first time round. The second time around, he didn't even have an inauguration crowd. Well, I think that there is, I think he can very, now it will be in his interest to minimize the crowd. And since the crowd is so spread out, that's easy to do. But I think you have to ask the question. And I think it's a, I mean, I think there are two profound questions here. Why has there been so little protest, so little pushback, so little fundamentally

objection to what has been going on for the past nine months. Then the other question is, how do you create a protest that has an effect, that has impact? And I would say, you know, and I would be delighted to be proved wrong on this, but I would say that a protest that is spread out around the country has significantly less effect than a, you know, a protest that is spread out around the country, than a protest that goes to Washington that confronts the people who you want to confront, who create a situation in which they can see you, feel you, smell you, they can't escape you. And, you know, obviously the major protests of the modern era from Martin Luther King, I have a dream to all those people in the middle of the civil rights

that civil rights moment arrived in Washington to in the Vietnam War when people again came to Washington for the Iraq War too under Bush I mean these were meaningful moments moments in which people understood the country as a whole understood, but also the people in Washington understood that, man, you know, this is, you know, we're going to have to account for this. These are American people marching in the streets. And now I think they march on line, that a lot of protest has just moved online. People are engaged, you know, arguably 24-7 in

this, but it doesn't have the impact that gathering. gathering in person. No, and I think you can, I mean, there are, there are millions upon millions of people engaged online. I mean, I talk about this, you know, every, every day on Instagram and have a, and a following, I mean, I'm stunned by how many, how many followers I have listening to these little, you know, a few minutes each day about, about Donald Trump, stunned by it. But, It's the difference between a fractured social media landscape and mass media. And I think protests, I think you can compare this. I mean, no kings around the country is a fractured expression.

Whereas mass protests, and let's assume 10 million people in Washington, and what kind of effect that would have? Well, that would be historic. But wouldn't Donald Trump just ignore it? First of all, he'd probably be at Mar-a-Lago. Secondly, he'd just say, oh, they're making it up. It's not true. I mean...

But you can't ignore. That's the point about a mass protest that there are so many people, so many literal bodies. You can't ignore it. This is not ethereal. This is not abstract. This is not virtual.

This is boots on the ground in the main city. it's sort of the equivalent of the Arab Spring in terms of just people turning out on mass. No, and again, and so that goes to this second question of why there has been no protests. And I think you're right. I think maybe that this being online and in social media makes it feel like there has been

when there hasn't or there hasn't been the thing that has effect, impact, meaning. And there's also no one person leading an opposition either. Well, I mean, I think that that's in times past, in large, large opposition demonstrations, there probably, there might not necessarily have been one person either, but what there were were organizers. And I would say, you know, I mean. Well, there are organizers of the No Kings protest.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, and they've done a good job. The question, the question is, is that the right job? Do they add up to a mass march on Washington, D.C.? Or are they less than the sum of their parts? Exactly. And I'm interested in this idea of organizing, having never organized anything in my life. This is not easy. Right.

So who steps up to the plate to organize something that has this kind of impact? I don't know that person. I wish I did. Well, and does it have, I mean, you think a first time around Trump won the Women's March, which I now don't know how many women went to Washington, but it was a big collegial event that people flew in for. And I mean, the last no-Kings protest had. 5 million people. It'd be interesting to see, and I'm assuming there will be many more on Saturday this week end. Yeah, no, I think that there may well be 10 million people. But as you say, there's 10 million people in one place and 10 million people spread out across a large

country. And also it'll get covered on social media too. So that will amplify it. But I think the point is to what effect. And Donald Trump will ignore it or be doing something else. Or because he's so good at this, will steal the attention doing something else. As we're recording this, President Zelensky is talking to him in D.C. It feels very much to me like the president, knowing he's got troubles at home,

the government's obviously shut down for, I think, what are we now, day 18, has turned his eye precisely where he said he wouldn't to MAGA, which is abroad, which is what leaders always do. in Britain whenever things were going wrong, they would always start fiddling around abroad, and it would ultimately be their downfall. And one can't help feeling there's some of that going on here. If you're Marjorie Taylor Green, who turns out to be doing some protesting of the Republicans herself,

how would you feel about the money that's now being tossed to Argentina and Trump casually saying, 20 billion, 40 billion, we're not going to notice it? Well, no, I mean, this is part of the split. that is going on in MAGA. I mean, a split that I see increasing on an almost daily basis. But, you know, the implicit promise to MAGA was America First of a profoundly isolationist policy. We do not want troops any American troops anywhere. We don't want American money anywhere.

We don't want it. and in Trump was largely exceeded to that position. And certainly during the first administration showed a real inclination to turn away from the world. And I think in this administration, A, the world has caught up with him. It is very difficult to turn away from. And also, it turns out he loves it. When you're talking to people around Donald Trump, how are they saying he reacts to this kind of a protest? Well, they're not even saying.

I literally think this is not on his radar. And certainly nobody is flagging this. Right now, everyone is saying he's just, he's just euphoric. this Middle East thing was something something I mean for a guy who kept saying I'm going to stop all wars I can do this I think he's completely surprised that this is turned out as well as it has and he's riding it

and I think people around him are a little wary of the fact that he now thinks he can do anything including sending Tomahawk Well, he's got the peace bug now, right? Well, he's got the attention bug, which he certainly has. But he understands, oh, my God, the attention is here and the attention is lavish. And it's, yeah, exactly. As you say, leaders always realize it is easier to do things abroad.

You know, as you say, I mean, Tony Blair was hated in the UK, hated and loved abroad. people still think in the U.S., people still think Tony Blair is the prime minister. Well, similarly with Margaret Thatcher. She was always off on the world stage. The Falklands made her, really. In the end, it's always domestic politics that brings you down. And the interesting thing is. Nixon went to China in the middle of Watergate and a toss to our sponsors,

who we greatly appreciate. We do greatly appreciate our sponsors. Michael Wolf and I are confusingly here on a Saturday, discussing all manner of things. It's also that thing that with Trump, you saw a more generous kind of president when he was there lavishing praise on everybody else when he was in Egypt.

You know, this guy's great, this guy's great, they've all been working really hard. These are not comments he ever makes about his own cabinet. He's always got a kind of twist in the tail when he's talking about his own cabinet or he's simply putting them down. But actually on the world stage, you saw someone who was, I hesitate to say this now,

you're immediately going to say no, but perhaps reaching for if there is a better self, we caught a glimpse of it when he was acknowledging this was a joint effort. It wasn't just him. I won't directly dispute that, but I will footnote that he's on the world stage knowing nothing about the world stage. So in other instances, you know, Nixon went to China,

had been studying the world stage for his entire career. You know, these are, you might say, serious people on the world stage, whereas this is a profoundly unserious person. Well, and I don't want to sound churlish in any way about creating any kind of moment of peace in the Middle East, but there was something very hastily put together in what appeared to be a hotel room, that kind of weird dais that they'd erected with peace 2025. We really don't know the details of this agreement or who has agreed to what. Now, which, which, and I will on my side be less than charlish about this and saying maybe that's his genius.

We got everybody to agree to whatever they thought they were agreeing to. The fact that it's a 20-point plan and we only know the first five points is neither here nor that. I mean, maybe that is. again, you know, Trump genius, I hesitate to say that. But the other thing is we really, we don't know what's going to happen or what's he's going to do. So Zelensky is in the White House today. We do not know if Trump is going to be Zelensky's on Zelensky's side or opposing Zelensky. And he is theoretically, has had what was billed as a two-hour conversation with Putin.

I'm really at, okay, I know it. If that was a two-hour conversation, that was two hours of Trump motor-mouthing Putin, and Putin just listening and just letting it go on.

Putin just giving his inscrutable smile. But he may be, we don't know if he is Putin's friend or Putin's enemy. And he goes back and forth. Remember that, that, I mean, not too long ago. This is just weeks ago. He went to Alaska for what? Yeah, a peace summit, right? Wasn't it a peace summit? Yes. And for whatever he got there, that, he got nothing there and Putin got whatever there was to get. Well, he got a ride in the beast, which everybody assumes he immediately managed to bug. And Trump somehow thought he was

leaving America because he kept saying, you know, he was leaving America to go and do this. He seemed very confused. Whatever. They're back at it. If you're in Trump's head right now, what voices are you hearing? He hears no voices other than his own. I mean, I want to be, that sounds hyperbolic, but this is, it would be wrong to assume that there is any other voice here. and Trump himself, when asked on this question, which he has been asked many times, and he is remarkably consistent on the answer. Who do you take advice from? He says he looks like incredulous and says, only myself.

So, but I think now he has come off this high of what happened in the Middle East, and he wants more of it. And Zelensky said, I will nominate you for the Nobel Peace Prize next year if you can bring an end to this terrible war. Right. And so the question is how, and that has come down to the Tomahawks. This is the Tomahawk question. Tomahawk missiles. Yes. Does he give?

I mean, he has certainly dangled that out there. We may have to give you the tomahawks, and then he has gone on to describe the damage that tomahawks would do. This would be damage that they would do to Russia, and one assumes that he is saying this because that will theoretically scare Vladimir Putin. But then he says, well, maybe I'm not going to give the tomahawks, and we need the tomahawks. So we're not going to give the tomahawks. I mean, does he even know what a tomahawk is? I mean, but what he does know is the name. It's great to say this.

I'm enjoying saying Tomahawk. Yeah, it's the sort of the word that could be a chant, Tomahawks, Tomahawks. Yeah, like, thank you Trump, thank you Trump. It's got the same rhythm as what we heard people chanting in Israel last weekend. So maybe this is every weekend he has to go and do a peace deal. We know that he's ended seven wars or is it eight wars now. But then let's go back to what this does. on his base in the MAGA base, which is at the very least churlish about this.

They don't like it. They don't like any aspect of this, of the fact that he might be sending Tomahawks, even the possibility of Tomahawks. I mean, they don't like the fact that he is, even if he has established a ceasefire and the return of the hostages, he's done this at the cost of a really very, you know, even more than usual embrace of Netanyahu who the MAGA people detest. So, you know, I see this as this among the growing list of issues that MAGA is,

has a problem with. So where does this put, when you're talking to people and this split in MAGA is extremely interesting, where does this put J.D. Vance? Well, I think, I mean, J.D. Vance is and can only be in one place which is joined at the hip to Donald Trump. So anything that, that, any, any perceived deviations from Maga-Dum by the MAGA people is going to infect J.D. Vance. We should also talk about this amount of money, $20 billion, $40 billion to Argentina. That may or may not go to Argentina. You know, it's a, you know, a fundamental Republican principle is against bailouts. Well, we are very clearly. I mean, I don't think there's any pretense otherwise, bailing out Argentina. And very specifically because the Argentina president is Trump's favorite president.

Right. Because they have a lot in common. Apparently. So let's just focus for a second on this maga split. Who is leading the sort of maga split? Who are the voices now that have real audiences? on this stuff? Well, I mean, you know, very much Tucker.

You know, I think we should spend some time. I think I said this the last time. He is worth a, he is worth all of our attention. I mean, he is worth our attention on this subject. He is a clear voice, a cogent voice, a persistent voice, and a popular voice. I mean, there are others too. Marjorie Taylor Green has stepped forward in a way that seems to confound everybody because she is breaking from the president in real ways. I mean, some ways that liberals are suddenly finding like common cause with her. Well, she's broken with him on Epstein, right?

She's one of the signatories for Release the Epstein files led by the cross-party team of Thomas Massey and Rokane. and also she's figured out that her kids are going to have to pay double their health insurance premium. So politics has become personal for her. Right. And so she now has essentially gone over to the other side in terms of the shutdown. And at least we forget the shutdown, we should come back to it because it is, although we seem to again ignore this in the cascade of other events, It is the central event in American politics and government at this moment. And a word from our sponsors because Trump doesn't stop for the weekends. And we're back after a word from our sponsors because inside Trump's head is 24-7-365.

So how do protesters tomorrow use the shutdown as a way of pointing out that right now America isn't working? I'm not sure that's how protests, a mass protest, even one spread out across the country, work. You know, or certainly, I mean, one of the other problems, I think, you can put it this way, about a protest spread out across the country is that the message is unclear. There is no one delivering a message. No one is going to have a dream in front of, you know, hundreds and hundreds. of communities with different protests. Right. And one of the criticisms of the Democrats at the last election was that their only

coherent message, Carmel Harris' only coherent message, was I'm not Donald Trump, say no to a dictator. But you have to be for something to get people to vote for you, right? Well, I don't know if, I mean, yes, I don't know if that's true or not. Well, I think it's harder to motivate a negative vote. than it is to get people to vote for something. When you see what's happening with Mam Darnie in New York, people are leaning into his enthusiasm,

his apparent authenticity, energy. Also, his specific message, the cost of living is too high. Yeah, affordability. Yes. No, I mean, I think that that's, that that is true. I mean, the problem with the Democrats is that none of their messages have, you know, because they are Democrats, because they are fundamentally bureaucratic.

You know, they're fundamentally about the particulars of policy, which is all good and all necessary. And what you need to actually run a country effectively, but it's very hard to sell it when you're up against someone whose singular talent is holding the attention to himself. So I think we could have, you know, 10 million people protesting no kings across the country, and Donald Trump will still do something that just means that he gets the attention. So it's really a question.

I think, what can you do that he can't compete with? That's a very good way of putting it. What can you do that Donald Trump can't out attention you in? Okay. And let's look at this because one of the things should be to shut the, down the government. And I would have said that is going to command everyone's attention. But it is not. But perhaps it will. And I mean, the government shutdown is at a, is at an interesting point because it is going on and on and on. And I don't see, given the positions on both sides, I mean, it's suddenly, it is now,

it is now articulated on win or lose. There is no compromise in the middle of this. And you say it's not getting any attention. I'm sure it's getting attention from people who are government workers who are being treated so cavalierly. I mean the whole decision to fire 4,000 people last week and then the chaos that they had to undo half of those firings because they realized they couldn't manage without them. No, absolutely. And that in itself should be

the major story. But it is, is not. Well, because it turned out to be peace in the Middle East, right? So Russell Vort at the Budget Office who's trying to, has now said they're going to try and get rid of 10,000 people during this shutdown. Again, in a normal time, that would have an incredible amount of attention, but attention, but Trump's great talent is keeping attention for himself. Now, the Democrats, I believe, understand that the longer this goes on, the more attention it will have to get because the more people it will directly affect. And their bet is that the person who will be held ultimately responsible is the President of the United States because he leads the party in power,

which I think is true. So if you were saying who's winning the shutdown at the moment, is it the Democrats or is it Trump? I would say the Democrats by a bit, maybe by even a bit more. And Mike Johnson seems on the back foot over Adelaide, Griever, the Congresswoman from Arizona. Mike Johnson always seems on a back foot. Well, at least he's on the back. Poor old Mitch McConnell. Oh, the guy is always in, you know, the headlights. He is always in the headlights.

But at least he's on the back foot because poor old Mitch McConnell took a cropper in the Senate yesterday. That was unfortunate. But Mike Johnson's refusal to swear in the Congress. woman in Arizona is also becoming an issue. Yeah, no, I mean, Epstein, Epstein. Epstein. Will, is an issue, will be an issue, is the issue that doesn't go away, is, I mean, I have said from the beginning that I thought that that should be, that the Democrats should make that a central issue, issue of the shutdown. Right, that unless you release the files, we're not going open the government again. Well, maybe we have an Epstein protest. Maybe the next Epstein is around.

10 million people arriving. Well, it's the Epstein files process. Weirdly, the Epstein files process would get both across the Bell. Oh, my God, yes. That's what we should organize. But I very much appreciate the dress down Friday. Well, you look like you always look. Well, I look like I always. It's just what else are you going to wear? Since you don't have to. video no longer requires a tie and jacket. Yeah, totally true, totally true. I think we should do a... You know this when you went on television,

the guys would be in the tie-in jacket, and then they would be wearing pajamas or shorts or below the table. That's so weird to me. So weird. And then, of course, all that took off during COVID. All right, well, I think we both deserve a weekend now. But I do think it's an Epstein-Files.

protest, isn't it? Release the Epstein files. We should fire up the MAGA base on this. That's the protest. We should become organizers. Okay. Well, we're journalists. We're not organizers. But I think it's released the Epstein's files protest and that's worth going to DC for. I'll see you there. If you have been, thank you for joining us on a Saturday, let us know what you think. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. We're independent media, so we appreciate your support. There's a button you just push.

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