The Daily Beast Podcast - The Sinister Truth About My Interview With Epstein

Episode Date: March 26, 2026

George Rush joins Joanna Coles to revisit the moment he began digging into Jeffrey Epstein after the financier’s Palm Beach sweetheart deal, uncovering testimony from Virginia Giuffre, allegations involving Ghislaine Maxwell, and mounting fears Epstein was still recruiting girls. Rush, the famed New York gossip columnist, describes how his reporting triggered pressure from the newspaper’s owner after Epstein intervened—before landing a rare phone interview in which Epstein blamed victims, minimized the charges, and tried to steer coverage toward their lawyer. With hindsight, Rush reflects on Epstein’s manipulation tactics, his push to keep Maxwell out of print, and the explosive tape that nearly sent the reporter to jail when attorneys fought to obtain it. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So I've asked you about Gillen. What struck you when you talked to Jeffrey Epstein and about the way he talked about young women? That they were really disposable service providers. You're sort of like landscapers. There's these annoyances that just wanted to be paid again and didn't really deserve to be. I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. Today's guest comes armed with a tape of his conversation with Jeffrey Epstein.

And we're going to be playing you clips from that tape, literally a voice from the grave. And this was when our guest, George Rush, was running the most important gossip column in New York. He and his wife, Joanna Malloy, ran a column called Rush and Malloy, which was the first thing you had to read every morning to understand what the secret. city's power brokers were up to. Well, of course, Jeffrey Epstein was up to no good, as George Rush had learned from a tip from someone living on Elbrillo way, which is where Jeffrey Epstein had his Florida mansion in Palm Beach. And what George Rush heard from Epstein's neighbor was that, yes, he was out of jail, but he was up to his old tricks. So we're going to play you

some of the clips from that interview and talk to George about what it was like when Epstein called him. But before we do that, before we get to those clips, just a plea, we are almost at 600,000 subscribers. Please, if you haven't, do subscribe to the Daily Beast. Join our BBC tier of membership where you get extra content, exclusive content. And don't forget to leave us a comment telling us what you made of this conversation. But now, let's get into it. George, welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. Let's start at the beginning. You were a fabulously well-known gossip columnist in New York City, presiding over a hugely influential column at the Daily News. And you started hearing things about Jeffrey Epstein. I was familiar with his name, but I really didn't know very much about him.

And I was vaguely aware that he'd had some legal problems where he was alleged to have abused young women. And I had a couple of friends in Palm Beach who were much more avid about following his movements. And he had just been released from the Palm Beach sheriff's stockade, as they call the jail down there. A stockade. How does it come here. It seems like cattle. And he had reached this, what was called, a sweetheart deal, to plead to the much reduced charge of soliciting prostitution. And he had completed a work release sentence where he would only spend nights at this stockade jail sleeping there.

And during the day, he was, for a. to go to his office where he supposedly was pursuing his philanthropy. And we should just point out soliciting prostitution from a minor. Yes, from a minor. And so my friends in Palm Beach, this one lady in particular named Morrison, who was a kind of socialite who had turned herself into a private detective, believed that he was up to his old tricks and was still trying to recruit. crude, poor, underage girls, some of whom were on the edges of the adult entertainment, sex, massage area, and lure them to his mansion.

So I dug into the litigation, in particular the suit filed by Jane Doe 102, as she was known then later to be revealed as Virginia Juffrey, the best known of his accusers and victims. I was astonished by her testimony of how Gilaine Maxwell, his former girlfriend and henchwoman, had made her acquaintance, introduced herself at the Mar-a-Lago Club, where Virginia worked in the locker room. And Gilein, she said, had asked her if she would be interested in becoming a masseuse. Virginia said, I don't know anything about it. Oh, it's easy to learn. And you can make a lot of money. And so in this testimony said, Gillesin eventually brought her over the Epstein mansion, showed her to the massage room where she saw this naked man and assumed that that was par for the course. And that Gielin had then removed her own shirt and,

stripped down to her underwear, but remained topless, and demonstrated by rubbing her breasts across Epstein that this was what Virginia should do. And again, in this testimony, she said that over the course of this encounter, Galen and Epstein had abused her, violated her, and at the end of said she has a promising future, words that affect. So I talked to other people around that story, her lawyer, Brad Edwards, and eventually put together a list of questions that I wanted to give Epstein and Maxwell the opportunity to respond to. And I had once had dinner with Gielaine and some other folks. and so I kind of knew her and had her email, I emailed her the questions.

And then I'd sort of brace myself for the fallout, which came in the form of our editor-in-chief Martin Dunn saying that the owner of the newspaper, Real Estate mogul, Mort Zuckerman, had gotten a call from Epstein, whom he was a better friend to than I realized. And Mort... Which is the point where every journalist's heart sinks, because you never want to get the owner involved, right? That's always going to be a nightmare. Exactly, yeah.

And Mort, I was aware that Mort and Epstein had had a couple of business. ventures where they had launched a magazine radar, which was quite smart, sort of in the spy magazine. Yeah, I remember it was kind of gossipy, our market gossip about the powerful in New York. Yeah. And they'd also made an attempt to buy New York magazine with a partner named Harvey Weinstein. Great, great guys. Great guys.

Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, and then Mork Zuckerman, who did at least know how to publish a newspaper, it was at least in the business. Exactly. But not until these latest DOJ Department of Justice emails came out, did I discover that Epstein was already pursuing his years-long quest to take control and become the architect, as he put it, of Mort Zuckerman's billions in and do his estate planning. And so just to set the stage, Jeffrey Epstein and Maltzookerman are friends, but Jeffrey Epstein's ambition is to get his hands on Maltzuckerman's billions of dollars created through real estate and to be his, to be in charge of his estate planning.

Exactly. For which he would charge. For which he never went to college, much less law school or, you know. Right. But for which he was planning to charge $20 million. a year? The initial proposal in the document was for 30 million, which every trust in the state lawyer just says, no one has ever gotten that much money. And then when Moore started Heming and Hoyne, Epstein dropped it down to 21 million, you know. So what happens? Does Mort

call you and say, George, what are you doing? He's a friend of mine. Or how does it sort of move from there? Well, I had drafted a story at that point, and Martin and the editor again came over and said, you know, we've got trouble here. Mort has heard from Epstein. I was waiting for him to just say, it's dead. It's,

you know, the story should be sent to the morgue. But kind of to my excitement, he's, Martin said that Epstein wants to talk to you. At that point, I don't know whether Epstein had ever given an interview, maybe one,

And so I welcomed that chance to talk to him. And the following week, I went into Martin's office and Epstein called at the appointed time. And he began to spin me about how I, he respected what the Daily News did because he was a kid from Brooklyn. He came from a poor family. And by the way, he, you know, there aren't many recordings of Epstein's voice, certainly not at that point, but in the recordings of depositions he'd given, he comes off as a very educated, sophisticated man with a sort of a mid-Atlantic accent,

But on this phone call, he was leaning into his Brooklyn roots, you know. Okay, so we actually have a clip from the interview. Let's hear it. And I have to say, I mean, as someone who'd only ever heard him really say he was going to plead the fifth, the sixth, and the 14th, instead of just the fifth. Why he couldn't have pled just the fifth? I do not know. Before we get into it, just a brief housekeeping aside, the first clip isn't very clear.

So if you're listening to this on audio, we've actually got the captions up on YouTube, but the next three clips are perfectly clear and you hear that deeply manipulative voice. I was very intrigued to hear this voice and it is like a voice from the grave. Fascinating to hear even given it's a tape recording from 20 years ago. I understand, he says to you, I understand the charge of bringing in attacking. the rich guy and I respect it. Your job is trying to sell papers. Such a classic line. People always say that when you've got them banged to rights. I think that's, I think what's potentially more exciting here is that people, not only do they dislike the wealthy, but they dislike lawyers. And so he then tries to sell you a story about Virginia Dufre's lawyer.

Exactly. He starts to say that a much better story would involve the truly evil person of a lawyer who is using you, George, and the Daily News by asking you to carry water for his outrageous claim that against me. As we have come to see, part of Epstein's a leverage and approach, his playbook, is controlling the media narrative. And in this case, using a combination of flattery and vague threat of litigation to steer you in the direction of telling the story he wants told. And briefly, his claim was that Brad Edwards, the crusading attorney for many of Epstein's victims, ultimately successful, was a part of a Ponzi scheme that I, that Brad Edwards's former law firm had taken part.

And that firm was, the chief partner was a man named Seth Rothstein, who indeed was convicted of a, I think, $1.5 billion scam where he would sell investors' shares in future settlements with people that the firm was suing, including Epstein. And Rothstein eventually went to prison for a sentence for 50 years. So can we just dwell on that a moment? Because what's fascinating about this story is that Epstein is actually selling you or selling you on, obviously is no money exchanging hands, a story which in fact turns out to be true. It is a riveting story and it doesn't mean that the two stories can't coexist. In fact, it turns out that both things are kind of true. that Brad Edwards, as you say, the lawyer for Virginia Drew Fries partner is selling investments to people on future legal settlements.

And what I find fascinating about this is he gets 50 years. He is sentenced to 5.0 years in jail, which is basically 35 times longer than the sentence Jeffrey Epstein gets. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's and and let me hasten to add Brad Edwards maintained that he himself was a victim of Rothstein and had been ripped off. And so it was it was he viewed it as a specious, malevolent vendetta litigation to scare him away from representing these accusers. And yet the court found his partner guilty, Rothstein guilty, and sentenced him to 50 years. It's just an astonishing side show to the main Epstein story.

Okay. Let me, if I make quickly, before we forget, Brad Edwards, it took him, I think, about six years, but he ultimately, well, let me back up. Epstein sued Brad Edwards saying, you took part in this Ponzi scheme and I was a victim. of it. Ultimately, Brad Edwards got Epstein to make a settlement with him, where Epstein paid Edwards an undisclosed amount and issued a rare public apology, acknowledging that he did it as a vendetta and because Brad Edwards was so good at his job. Wow. Okay, well, he turned out to be very good at his job in terms of representing the number of victims that he did and getting them settlements. So should we play another clip? Because here we have you confronting Epstein on his

agreement. I'm looking here at the prosecution. You have to say about it. So what was it like at sort of talking to him? Did you feel you were being played? I mean, where he says that, oh my God, I can't have that conversation. I pled guilty to solic, what I pled guilty to. I can't talk about that anymore. It was a difficult conversation. I could tell right away that he wasn't going to break down and say, I'm sorry, I did that. And I also was conscious that you can't, given that he's the publisher's friend, you have to, can't go too hard. And, you know, I just generally think it's good to be respectful to people you're interviewing. But he, he, there was, he wouldn't go into self-reflection.

in any way. His main argument was that in a way he was the victim of these girls, that they had deceived him into thinking that they were older than they were, that they were already working as masseuses and strippers, and they were part of this demimon that existed before he came on. They'd come willfully to his house to get paid, and as he said, now they want to get paid again. And that sentence he got was, in his words, much harsher than he would have gotten in New York, which he said, you know, what he did was essentially like a John on a street corner who, you know, saw a prostitute and then, you know, when asked her if she was free for an hour or something. And that it was like would have been the equivalent of jaywalking, he said. So, you know, I wanted to see if he would acknowledge anything. And the closest he came was to admit in his own way that his main mistake was kind of getting caught,

that he came too close to the line that he should have been more careful about, you know, exposing himself. So he also, so he blames the victims and says that they were all prostitutes anyway and they were trying to charge him. twice first for the time he paid them and then they were coming back to get legal to get that Brad Edwards had basically pointed out to them that they could make more money out of this but you have a spy also on you have miss Marple of Elbrillo way who's basically saying listen this guy has not gotten any better he's been inside in the stockade he's come out and there's still girls a flock of girls going in and out of his his house every day When you look back on the interview you did now with hindsight, obviously, were the red flags you see now that you didn't see then?

I guess it was yes in the sense that I didn't realize the scope of how he had continued to resume his trafficking operation. I also didn't realize, I thought it was sort of just for his own pleasure, perhaps, but I didn't realize how, why the network was. He was providing a service for his male friends. Yeah, and flying these girls around the world and who else was involved. So one of the things he's very specific about is that he wants to leave Gillen out of this. you ask about Gillen, who you know socially because she's a figure on the New York social scene, which you're covering in your Russian Maloy column.

Why, can you just remind us what he said and why do you think he was so vociferous about leaving her out of this? I, one, I think he probably to the extent that he felt any personal response, responsibility it was to Gilein that he had viewed himself as having gotten into this trouble. And although as we later found out, it was with her help. She was his second banana. And didn't want to drag her into the shame. He didn't want to be in the shame. I mean, one thing that has also emerged is how the worlds of Palm Beach and New York City,

were apart and that what he was doing there hadn't really come to light in his New York social circle. He just sort of, he disappeared for 13 months while he was under, during his sentence, but, you know, many of the New York crowd would go down to Palm Beach, but to a great extent, they weren't aware of what was going down. And he didn't want the hometown newspaper splashing it out and letting everyone making it clear what Gilen had did. And that, you know, the description from that affidavit that Virginia Joufrey gave, I think, terrified him and that, you know, Ghilin, who was sort of his ticket to the high society, European, British milieu. He didn't, if she was also shamed, that would be bad for the,

the whole operation. Interesting. And so it, I mean, Mort Zuckerman didn't stop you from publishing the story. The story appeared. Yes. So to Mort's credit, a, I won't say it was sanitized. There were some, the basic facts of it were undeniable. They were in public records. And the lead kind of became that that Epstein had reached a settlement with one of his accusers, whether because of my inquiry or not, he had made, I guess, an initial settlement with Virginia, Jouffre. But nowhere was Gilein mentioned. That was the deal where Mort had asked us to honor his request, Epstein's request, to leave her out. and in return we could get at other things.

Right, so he didn't want her in any way tainted with his behavior because that would stop her from being able to keep his funnel coming. Right, fascinating. And then when the story came out, what was the impact? There wasn't the sort of eruption that we have today. It ran on a Sunday and it didn't make the splash. hoped it would, but the people who were aware of the difficulty of getting it in the paper at all were happy. The accusers, Brad Edwards, my Palm Beach friends, they were pleased.

Okay, so we have another clip here where you say that he plays the victim and he says these girls are all ganging up against him. They've been whipped up by the lawyer Brad Edwards. Let's just hear this and his description that it's all about money. We have a lot going on in that clip. We have him saying he doesn't want to attack the characters of the girls, but in fact, he's already done that to you. He's saying they just want to get paid again. He's saying it wasn't smart of him to go so close to the line.

So sort of acknowledging there was a line and he went too close to it, but he got a slap on the wrist. And then, fascinatingly, he says, no, some of these claims are as legitimate as a my Zorro winning ticket in the Oklahoma lottery. What is he talking about? Okay. In the documents that I had discovered was a report that Jeffrey Epstein had won the Oklahoma lottery and that it was actually I don't know whether they used him his name but as you know he has his ranch in New Mexico the Zara Ranch and the winner was associated with the Zara Ranch in New Mexico and I believe that the the name Wexner was also included in

in the story. And of course, Leslie Wexner, yeah. Was, you know, Epstein's initial benefactor and a victim himself. And the founder, we should say, of the limited, which included victorious secrets. Yes, correct. And so this story, I brought this story to Epstein's attention and asked him, what the hell is this? You won the Oklahoma lottery. And he professed that this was New York.

to him that he had no idea what the hell this was about. If one of my staff won the lottery and didn't tell me I'm entitled to some money. So he kind of made light of this report and used it as a comparison for how absurd these charges were against him because it was this specious and preposterous as his lotto-winning. But he did appear to have, or someone from the Zorro ranch had won the lottery. Well, I never got to the bottom of that. I don't know. That's something to follow up on.

I mean, if people are paying more attention to the Zara ranch now, and by the way, not to go off too much on track, but recently I spoke to someone who had been a guest at the Zorro Ranch. And she was not one of his. victims. She was a social friend, but she told the story of how she got up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom and was trying to find her way down the hallways and open this one door and discovered that it was a some sort of medical examination room that featured gynecologist stirrups. Oh God, how creepy.

Yeah. And why do you need that there? And as reporting by the New York Times has revealed, he had this whole coterie of doctors and specialists that included, in the words of Jeffrey Epstein, in one of his emails, a pussy doctor who would examine these, you know, his victims checked out for, any STDs or whatever. So I've always thought it odd that people described him as a germaphobe, which of course Donald Trump is professed to be a germaphobe, and he wouldn't shake hands with people. He would do the fist bump or he would do the weird elbow thing, and this was before COVID. And then you read his medical documents and you read about the network of doctors he had

and this fresh, constant fresh intakes of young girls from Eastern Europe. And he was constantly getting gonorrhea. I mean, constantly getting some kind of. kind of S-TI, herpes, all of these things. And yet he was supposed to be a germaphobe, so bizarre. So I've asked you about Gillen. What struck you when you talked to him about the way he talked about young women? I think that they were really disposable service providers, sort of like landscapers or I don't know.

I mean, just how little regard he had for them and that they were sort of these annoyances that just wanted to be paid again and didn't really deserve to be. And that because of their plot against him, you know, he's had to suffer. But, you know, he's vaguely knowledge that it was a, it was a chapter of his life that was now behind him and that now he wanted to work on his philanthropy. Okay, we have a clip about that. You say to him, well, we can hear what you say, but you set it up by saying, you know, basically, do you have any regrets? So he's trying to make a joke, though, when you say you're not engaging in anything and he goes physical massage. Or you say physical massage and he goes, no, most of the scientists who come here in their 70s and 80s, they're not that attractive, i.e. making a joke.

He's not going to get a massage from an 80-year-old scientist and yet he's very deftly changing the subject there. Yeah, yeah. And he also goes on in that part of the conversation to brag about how what a great philanthropist he is and how he's doing cutting edge. Just uses this phrase bleeding edge science where he is giving funding to researchers that would couldn't get it from anywhere else. and that he's, you know, like a lot of these, not the tar, too many people with the same brush, but this futuristic broligarch billionaire visionary galaxy brain self-aggrandizement that, you know, has become common out of tech. You know, he just feels like he's the world's savior and only he can do it.

and that somehow, I mean, as we have come to see, he saw science and philanthropy as a way to win absolution and, you know, overcome the stain of his behavior. And I believe that, you know, he hoped to recruit more Zuckerman in this scheme. And I think you're, A friend of the beast, Michael Wolfe wrote a piece during the time that he had gotten a known Epstein in which he described how Mort Zuckerman was present at a gathering where Epstein was exploring the idea of a philanthropy that would help them all and using their money. Right, using their money and their reputations too, because it was a sort of smokescreen. I mean, what's fascinating is that academia in America is set up for people to sponsor it. You know, so many academics and so many research scientists are desperate for funding, and along comes Jeffrey Epstein, and along, you know, they meet in the middle.

And the thing, I mean, because he undoubtedly did sponsor people, and he was able to hide behind their reputations and use them as the sort of social battering ram for for repairing his reputation, right? Convierce your passion in a business with Shopify and bathe records of ventas with the form of pay with a better conversion of the world. Has heard of well? The best conversion of the world.

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a month in Shopify.es bar records. Yeah, he he's just kind of figured he would use the respectability

of these Nobel Prize winners, these institutions like MIT and Harvard, you know, he bought himself a Harvard sweatshirt that he never rarely took off It's in all the pictures. It tells you more about him than anything else, almost.

I know. I don't know whether somebody there gave him a sweatshirt. I think probably Larry Summers, the former president of him sent him probably a new sweatshirt every day. A new sweatshirt every day. So why do you think Mort Zuckerman was so interested in staying friends with Jeffrey Epstein, when he had read what you had written and also would know that there was a lot of stuff that you had researched and written

that didn't get into the paper. Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things that still puzzles me because, you know, Moore was a brilliant man who created this fortune and he also had a true intellectual side. He would appear unpleasure political talk shows and you know his name was floated as a potential candidate from time to time and it really had an amazing art collection really really was someone asked it Leon Black it should

yeah added and so it's you'd think he would have that that that the what my story brought to his attention might have concerned him but as these emails have shown, they, they, they, uh, he continued to be friends with him. Uh, I mean, they were constantly talking about how fond they were of each other. By the way, I don't think we touched on how these emails also revealed to me the, uh, what was going on behind the scenes when I was waiting for a response from Epstein and Geelong in the emails. Epstein says, here's a possible response, you know, that they were all hookers. And what's the, he was waiting for Mort to tell him the story had died or whatever.

And Mort said, well, you know, we're working on it against much resistance. And there was this back and forth. And, you know, eventually, I think Epstein thought that the story was dead, that he was, I was waiting for. his exclusive about the Ponzi scheme. And then when I started making more phone calls to other people, an email, Epstein emailed and Mort. I hear George Rush is working on the story again. Like, sounding sort of frustrated that it was still coming back to life. So, you know, a lot of these emails that have come out also show how Mort was a being preyed upon by Epstein, you know, Epstein had scored big first from Leslie Wexner managing his millions,

and then Leon Black, the hedge fund billionaire of Apollo. And I think he, he saw on Mark, uh, Zuckerman as his next mark. And in later emails, you also see how it, it became apparent that, uh, Moore was experiencing memory loss. And, you know, Epstein played on this vulnerability. Like, you know, you've told me how you, you're, you're developing these symptoms. And, uh, I really have to, I'm concerned about you, you know, your money should be guarded. And, you know, you know, your money should be guarded. And, and, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, And there were, Mort has two nephews who were like sons to him. And they were kind of his principal heirs and they were helping him manage his money.

And Ebson wanted to just push them out. And board had some of the best trust in estate lawyers. Ebson wanted them out of the picture. And so he would couch all these aggressive maneuvers in concern for, his friend. And, you know, other reporting has shown how Mort continued to, I mean, he had once signed the same birthday book that Donald Trump signed for Epstein's 50th birthday with the new cartoon. Mort had done some joking dedication where he suggested that Epstein had a hidden family in Luxembourg, which was not true.

And in a later birthday book, he said something about how Epstein should have a menu at his next dinner where it would include a simple salad and whatever would enhance Jeffrey's sexual performance. So, you know, even years after my story and when other things were coming to light, more still joking about his sexual performance. I mean, it's also interesting to me that I saw some emails in there about Jeffrey trying to offer more help getting his then younger daughter into Trinity. And you think why on earth would Mort Zuckerman, who's a well-known, you know, billionaire businessman, right, super-connected in New York, an absolute steeple on the kind of landscape of New York, you know, of well-connected New York. power brokers need Jeffrey Epstein, who wasn't even a parent at Trinity, to get him into the school? I think Epstein used any tactic he could. I mean, it had worked for him in other occasions. These emails are full of the offers and requests for help in gaining admission to private schools, colleges, dental schools. Harvard.

Harvard. And, you know, he, and, you know, Epstein delivered or tried to, and that was part of how he kept this network in play, how the people owed him something. And if he could, if he could bring it off, then he really had his hooks in them. So, yeah, it is, it is surprising. But then again, not. I mean, it also, my story aside, over the next six years, the litigation from the other accusers started making it into the media more and more.

And it would be hard for more to ignore that or not see it. And I think initially he probably took it on faith that Epstein was, that it was a kind of he said, she said or something. But more and more, particularly after the Miami Herald series, Julie Kay Brown, it would be hard to take Epstein at his word. Did you get glimpses of the supposed charm that Jeff, Jeffrey Epstein had. I mean, it is incredible the network he had and the people he had around his dinner table. And he was supposed to be, you know, as well as using all his connections to help

people, he was supposed to be very charming. And when he focused on you, you know, like people say about Bill Clinton, you know, you felt like you were the center of his universe. Did you feel that when he was talking to you? A little bit. You know, I can, even if you hear the whole recording, you get a sense of how he could be charming. I mean, he said at one point, I want you to be as skeptical as you want to be. But over time, I think you'll see that what I'm saying is correct. And he was a master.

You could tell immediately you were in the hands of a master of schmooze and persuasion and that he had an assortment of tools to try and get his way. Right, to reel you in. Well, and in another sort of weird aside, I just noticed that you're, in the tape, you say this is signed by Gerald Leffcord. I play tennis with Jerry. We get paired occasionally in our tennis club, which is funny. He's a very good.

strategic tennis player. So there you go. Six degrees of Epstein. Six degrees of Epstein. What a horrible idea. Horrible idea. I don't want to be any way connected with Jeffrey Epstein.

He had an amazing legal team. I mean, it was, it put OJ's dream team to shame. I mean, he had Dershowitz. He had Roy Black, who had been the attorney

for General Manuel Noriega, all the top people. Right, of course. And Kenneth Starr, that moral arbiter of Bill Clinton's... How Ken Starr went from Clinton to Epstein? It tells you a lot. Yeah, yeah. I'm in the left court. I think there might have been someone else in there, but...

Yeah, I think he at one point was responsible for keeping the whole Florida bar going, wasn't he? I think he had 75. I think Michael Wolfe told me he had 75 lawyers at one point. I could believe it. Yeah, you didn't know who to call. No wonder he wanted a large fee for monitoring Murt Zuckerman's estate planning. Yeah, just to keep it going. It just sometimes it feels like you'll never get to the bottom of it.

I mean, people are using AI and Wired had this story the other day about this a wonky guy who had developed a way of connecting different emails and really doing a matrix of the network. So it'd be someday. So George, your story, you had an intense slice of the Epstein story, caught between Jeffrey Epstein and your proprietor and his friend. And actually it says a lot about Maltzuckerman that he let you run the story. It does. And it's to his credit and I you know not to get too deep into the aftermath but this damn recording became a huge headache because the lawyer for the the accusers Brad Edwards I told I told them about it and he naturally wanted to hear it I didn't I said I can't give it to you I you know was an off the

record conversation. The first thing out of Epstein's mouth was, you know, this is off the record. He didn't, you know, even hello was off the record. And, and so we, the Daily News took the position that the Shield law protected our, this confidential source and we, you know, we're not going to surrender it. And, you know, I think more, you know, bankrupt, I believe bankrolled, that sometimes I wonder if Epstein bankrolled that defense. But he, Epstein did not want Brad Edwards to get that recording either. And so I ended up having to go to court, where, to our surprise, the judge said, you know, I, I, I, had. having listened to this recording, I do think there is information that Mr. Edwards could help his case and show that Epstein has no remorse and that he had this malice toward this attorney.

And so you better turn it over in the next hearing or bring your pajamas. Bring your pajamas, meaning you too will go to jail. I would go to jail. I was bracing for that. And in the meantime, fortunately, Epstein reached a settlement with Joufrey. And so I didn't, with that, that case died. But Brad Edwards still wanted the tape. And he said, I need it for my case involving Epstein. Fortunately, again, the judge said, no, you don't. And so we never had to return the tape. turn over the tape. At one point, there's an email where Epstein asked Suckerman to please appeal this decision to try and prevent the tape from falling into Edwards' hands. And so that was a whole side story. And so I have kept that tape unheard for a number of years. And then after Epstein's death, let's call it. It emerged that he had given interviews to Michael Wolfe and James B. Stewart of the New York

Times. And so they were telling what was in those interviews. I figured I was within my rights to, you know, share it with you and the statute of limitations was over. So do you think he was murdered or do you think he actually died by his own hand? I have go back and forth. I do think that you can't underestimate the incompetence of a prison system that the MCC where he was staying was just like was badly in need of overhaul. So there's incompetence that could have allowed him to do it. But then again, the analysis of Michael Badden, the medical examiner for Epstein's brother. is also persuasive that, you know, there was sort of the, the nature of the, of the wounds is unlike anything he had said, seeing, you know, I don't want to get two in the weeds,

and I'm not an expert on that. So my, I'm a kind of person who thinks the most obvious conclusion is, is true. I do think he's such a narcissist, Epstein, that the thought of remaining in jail and enduring this trial was just beyond what he could endure. And so quite possibly he just thought this was the classy way out. Fascinating. Well, thank you for playing the tape with us. And as we said, says a lot about Mork Zuckerman that he allowed the piece to be published. Yes. Less about him that he continued to be friendly with him, given all he knew. I mean, I will say one more thing about Mort.

He generally was not the sort of publisher who was always protecting his friends. And when I first started this job as a gossip columnist, someone said to me, you have two things to remember, write about Mort's friends and don't write about Mort's friends. No, what a complicate because you were writing about all the power brokers in the city. And of course, they were all people that were having dinner with them every night. I'm probably saying, I can't believe you let George Rush write that about me. Yeah. But generally, I mean, you hear many stories about Rupert Murdoch of enforcing his will on his employees. But rarely did Mort Bigfoot reporters, in my experience.

He let things fly that I know he would have borne the brunt of. But in this case, he intervened and to an extent. And, you know, again, this story did still run and inform. Well, George, many thanks for coming in and fascinating story. Fascinating glimpse of the master manipulator. I'm glad I could share it. Thank you, John. Not an enviable place to be squashed between Jeffrey Epstein and the owner of your newspaper.

Mortzookerman. And I do think it's very telling that Mautzookerman was a good enough owner to let George Rush run the story about his friend. I do still think it's weird that he stayed friendly with him. But such are the mysteries of powerful men. If you have been, thank you for watching. Don't forget to subscribe. Leave us a comment with your favorite part of the conversation. So the good news is we have so many Bee Beast tier members now. There are two. many names to read out and we really appreciate your support thanks to our production team Devon Rogerino Ryan Murray Rachel Passer Heather Pissarro Neil Rosenhaus