The Daily Beast Podcast - The Sleazy Reason Trump Can’t Quit Ghislaine Maxwell

Episode Date: August 29, 2025

Joanna Coles and Michael Wolff dig into Ghislaine Maxwell’s prison interviews with Trump’s DOJ, Epstein’s lingering influence on Trump, and Trump’s presidential culture of copious pardons for nefarious American characters. They examine how rich criminals and political allies maneuvered for Trump's favor, and how loyalty, leverage, and money shaped decisions inside the Oval Office. From secret phone calls to private doubts, Wolff unpacks what drives Trump's unusual sympathy Trump reportedly felt for Maxwell and the political pressures he's facing in deciding whether to pardon her. And Wolff highlights how Epstein’s social connections, including Fergie and Prince Andrew, intersected with Trump, showing the unexpected ways their worlds became connected. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Empeas to start your period of month in Shopify. coms bar records. To wrap up what is inside Donald Trump's head here about Galane, which is that she comes from the same world that he comes from. So there is this sympathy. There is this, you know, this person who knows this person who does this and this is where the money moves and all that.

That's Donald Trump's world. And there's no coincidence that Galane has known Donald Trump for many, many. many, many years. I'm Joanna Coles, back with Inside Trump's Head, part two of the Gillen-Mexwell-Proffer transcripts, which, as I've said, is better than any thriller you are going to read this summer. It's your new beach reading. Take it for your long weekend.

Settle in and read all about the woman who is inside Trump's head this week. All right, Michael, we're going to pick up. where we left off still deep, knee-deep in this Gellon Maxwell transcript. But you're hearing that he's calling around. He, Donald Trump is calling around. I mean, I think she is, you know, inside Trump's head is this week, Galane. And I think it's very, it's, it's high pressure for him. And he's, he's calling around and he's saying literally, what should I do about Maxwell? And I think it's a divided on his in his mind because he knows he will get flack. He knows it is actually not the politic thing to do. But at the same time, I think he wants to pardon her. I think he feels,

he feels something for her. And in addition to owing her something because she delivered on what she had to do. He was, he has never done anything inappropriate. He's a great guy, the greatest guy. And I never saw the birthday letter. No, no birthday letter. Right. So, so, so, but he doesn't have to. I mean, he's gotten that now. He doesn't have to pardon her. But I was going to ask you about Maga, because Maga is split on this too. You know, I think it's, I think it is politically fraught for him to do this. but I think he will do this because he wants to do it, because he owes her, and because he feels some sympathy for her. So that's the interesting question. Why would he feel sympathy for her? Okay, well, why would he feel sympathy for her?

You know, let's go back to the pardon culture of the Trump White House. He pardons rich criminals. Well, he pardoned January 6th. Okay, put that over here. They weren't rich. No, but they were, remember, remember he was on trial for January 6th, and because he became the President of the United States, he could disappear that. And now he disappears all of the January 6 defendants or convicts,

because they bring up the question of January 6th again, and also because in some weird inverted sense of fairness, I think he believes, you know, I got, I got off for this. They should get off for this. But then there's this other category, and it is literally rich criminals. He has a feeling for these people, and he may identify with them because he's kind of, not kind of, he is a rich criminal. Right. But there's more of a structural point here. And you have to see it. There's a whole, you know, the layers around, you know, the layers around. Donald Trump of the Trump circle, the loyalist in the Trump circle. And that is probably includes, I don't know, there could be a hundred people in this, in this category. A lot of these people are making money off of, let's be perfectly blunt, selling pardons.

A sell, pardons for sale. And how do they make money from it? They go. If you want a pardon, if you're a rich, criminal and you want to pardon, you go and hire one of these people for the express purpose. And this is not technically illegal. You're hiring someone to do a service for you, which is to represent you to the president. You're not on the president's payroll. You're not a government employee. You're an outside person who has a relationship with this White House and with President Donald Trump. So these are like lobbyists for people who, are in jail who want pardons.

Exactly. Now, the structural advantage to Trump is that this is how these people are paid. And they are paid in not only to achieve a pardon for someone, but they're paid for their loyalty to Donald Trump. So Donald Trump is getting two benefits here. He's getting a lot of people who are, constantly in attending him who he doesn't have to pay. Right.

And they are incentivized because of what they're selling to be loyal to Donald Trump. All right. So I've got a list, actually, of the people that he's pardoned since he came into power. In his first administration, he granted 237 in the full four years. To date, already he's done 1,600. Now, most of those are January the 6th. but what stands out Carlos Watson, do you remember him? I knew Carlos Watson.

You knew Carlos Watson of Aussie media. I didn't know him. What disreputable person haven't I known? Because that was a white-collar crime. I mean, he pretended to someone else. He had a company and he tried to raise money through means that were fraudulent. Right. And yes, and why?

Now, curiously, Carlos Watson is a liberal. You know, that was his whole point. I mean, he was... Well, went to Harvard, right? I don't know. He went to college anyway. I think he went to Harvard. But at any rate, at any rate, he is, you know, a perfectly nice fraudster.

You know, a true white-collar fraudster. Right. And so this is not an ideological pardon. this was because he knew the right people. He had the money, which enabled him to make the right context, who could then represent him to the president of the United States. Okay, so then we have the Crisleys that got a lot of attention because they're a reality television couple who got convicted of fraud. I mean, almost all the people that he's given pardons to Michelle Fiore, who is a Nevada politician, who,

was convicted of diverting donations. The Crisleys, I've mentioned, there was a healthcare exec called Paul Walsack for tax crimes. They're all white-collar crimes. Michael Grimm, the former New York Congressman tax fraud. Larry Hoover was a gang leader. I don't know him. Do you know Larry Hoover?

Just got a federal sentence commuted, it says, here. And then there was the Arkansas state senator convicted of bribery and tax fraud. who was pardoned, Jeremy Hutchinson. So. Yeah, no, I mean, this is. This is all because people are basically hustling him and lobbying him because it's white collar crime and they're not a danger to other people. No, I don't even think that that's the issue.

I mean, he can excuse a danger to other people. And there have been instances of that, of pardoning people who you wouldn't want, necessarily want on the street. but these are these are people as I say who they're buying the pardon they're buying the pardon and you do this by by hiring one of these one of his people and by the way it's not necessarily certain that if you hire one of these people you're going to get a pardon but but it certainly it certainly puts you in the running and it's how he gives work to friends yes Exactly.

Okay, he gives work to friends. So what are the benefits here of pardoning Galen? Well, as I say, I mean, he feels that he owes it to her. But she's done it now. I mean, so does he have to give her anything? No, I don't think he does. I mean, unless a deal has been made, and let's not discount that. Right.

that A Deal has somehow been communicated. After all, she has been moved from bad prison to good prison. Yeah, and also what was amazing, and I might have to do a dramatic reenactment here, was Todd Blanche and the way the interview ended. I think that the other thing is we don't know what she has. So if she did, in fact, leak the incriminating birthday message. Which was the picture of the nude women with Donald. Trump as a signature for her pubic hair?

Yes, precisely. Maybe she has other things. You know, those photographs, for instance, that I saw that I believed were probably in Jeffrey Epstein safe when it was raided, a set of about a dozen snapshots of Trump with some of the girls who were at Epstein's house in Palm Beach. Topless. Topless. I don't know their ageist and it was not clear in the photographs. Does she have copies of those photographs?

She would have been there. My understanding was when they were taken. Right. All right. So I just want to read you the last bit. So this is Todd Blanche wrapping up the proffer, as it's officially known, which you've reminded us. Well, I think it's very challenging to talk about everything we've talked about. And you know in one and a half days or in just a period of hours. So I'll talk to Mr. Marcus, her lawyer, about kind of what we're going to do next, if anything. There's no, and I don't know, and I'm not being coy, I just, I don't know yet. I don't know. So we, ooh, I have a lot, we have, we have some work to do, i.e., he's going to go back and talk to Donald Trump, because this is all audience of one, as you're always saying, we'll do it

with your lawyers to the extent we have questions or follow-up, and this has been very helpful. I think it was you, you know, who kind of said you wanted to talk, but we gladly accepted it. So I do appreciate you being willing to meet with us, and I expect we'll be in touch soon. That's extraordinary, isn't it? That's the number two in the Justice Department to a woman who was convicted for 20 years of sex trafficking. Let's just bend over. I mean, it's just amazing to me. And this is why this stuff has to be passed line by line by line. It is riven with clues about the Epstein case. Completely. And actually, a good question is why they released it. Because again, they had no obligation to release it. I think they released it because they thought nobody's going to read it. It's too long. Nobody's going to read it.

Yes. And also the headlines are clear. Donald Trump saw, did nothing. Nice guy. Nice guy. An inappropriate, a great guy and no birthday letter. Okay, so the other thing I thought was really interesting in it was this settling of scores around women around Epstein. So we have a saying that basically Fergie, so Sarah Ferguson, who is married, as we know, to Prince Andrew, long-term friend of Epstein. Let me preface that just a second, because one of the things that you get here, which you don't really get from, any of the other accounts, because they're not inside accounts, is the life of Jeffrey Epstein. Right. What is going on here?

Who he's courting, who he's seeing, how he is doing whatever it is that he does in a business context, which is still not exactly clear here. But you begin to see a greater picture of the life. And, I mean, one of the things that you see is that he spent, I mean, What did he spend his time doing other than getting massages and happy endings? He spent his life looking for real estate, which is what she was part of. Right, she helps him at the beginning, right? They're introduced sort of on a blind date and he says, oh, I need to find a new apartment.

She's looking for a place for a dad. They connect. Right. So he's buying these massive pieces of property, a very expensive pieces of property, and then developing these massive pieces of property and then developing these mass. massive expensive pieces of property, of which she is a key player in. Now, where does the money come to buy these massive pieces of property? And, I mean, these are, I mean, some of these are huge,

this island in the Caribbean, which is a, which she describes kind of as rustic. Right. And by the time they're finished, it's a, you know, he's built a white lotus set. Right. Although it was only $7 million, the island, right? Which I thought was quite low for an island in the Virgin Islands. Well, have you ever bought one?

No, I haven't bought one. I mean, because it's not really the land. It's the fact that you have to bring in everything to it. Yes. It's laying the utilities and all that stuff is expensive. It's tens of millions, if not $100 million, to develop this island. Yeah.

And then you have the property in New Mexico, the largest piece of privately owned property in New Mexico, the ranch, which Galane then proceeds to fill with animals. So, and again, we don't know where does the money come to do this. We don't really see the business he's doing, but suddenly, you know, he's buying, buying this real estate. And that's one aspect of the life that you see. but then the other aspect is all these people that he's involved with who are you know who are clearly facilitating this life of of inexplicable wealth and and which is fueled on the back of this really talented social climbing yeah really so okay so we've got sarah ferguson married to

Prince Andrew, who we know is a regular visitor to Epstein's mansion and to the island, and ended up doing a 12 million pound settlement over allegations that he'd slept with Virginia Jewfrey, right? Fergie, his wife, according to Gillen Maxwell, is basically throwing herself at Epstein. Epstein, meanwhile, as we have said inside Trump's head a couple of weeks ago, throwing himself at Princess Diana. Okay, but let me just say there. Fergie, we do know that Epstein bailed her out of a deep financial difficulty she is in at one point. Right. So she's giving him social cover and bringing Prince Andrew to him, again, a social cover and bait. And, you know, you get these calls from people saying, oh, I've got Prince Andrew coming for dinner.

Would you like to come? Because it's a way of luring people in because they want to meet Prince Andrew. But then there was one that I found really interesting. And Gillen throughout the transatlantic. transcript is sort of saying that she was going out with him, but was she really? They only slept together once, then they didn't sleep together again for another nine months. No, no, but there's this other thing. They didn't have sex. They had sex once, but then they travel together and they sleep together. In the same bed, right, but they don't have sex. But she describes him, she then comes to realize that he may have had lots of other women going on at the same time. And she's clearly very envious or jealous of his.

his relationship with Eva Anderson, who was, right, who becomes Eva Dubin and who was a Miss Sweden, right? Yes. Okay. And the Dubins, Eva Dunbin, Eva Anderson marries Glenn Dubin. They become a very important social couple in New York. Yeah, and Eva Anderson then it becomes a doctor. So in this, she's a, I mean, this is one of his.

Did Jeffrey pay for her in medical school, too? I don't know. I know that there's a later girlfriend who he does end to dental school. Dental school, yeah. And but, but, you know, another one of these things. And it's so Eva Dubin, who is obviously, you know, a model, Miss Sweden, but then. She's in lots of the early pictures. Yes, but then in the transformation, she's then becomes a very estimable doctor.

I mean, it's just full of things. It's the best summer read. I don't want to sound cynical or mawkish or malevolent about this, but it really is bursting with clues as to the questions that have dominated. Or too enthusiastic. Or too enthusiastic. But it gives so many clues to how did Epstein make the money and why did people go and hang out with him.

Yeah, no, and of this life that he led. Right. And she's kind of, she clearly doesn't, or at least represents it, she doesn't entirely understand the life. So even when we look at this, and a lot of trying to parse this is that his social climbing was on the back of Galane, who was well connected in British society. But she says, no, no, no, he was already well connected before I met him. He was already moving. He was already, he already knew people. And in fact, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, which we had talked about on a couple of episodes ago, ago, in which I talked about, about, that he and Trump had a competition, who could sleep with Diana first, and that Jeff, Jeffrey, Jeffrey Epstein had this weird, role in which he was the person at functions where Diana was present. When the seat beside her became empty, he was the seat, Philip.

Jeffrey Epstein was then pushed in so that she would never have an empty seat beside her. And that Trump was very envious that Epstein had achieved such a position. Michael, we're just going to stop for some ads. And we're back with Michael Wolf inside Trump's head. In another weird turn of events, Diana then goes out with Dode Fayed. So it's not so far, it's not such a stretch that she would have actually maybe gone out with Jeffrey Epstein. He was a bachelor, he was living in New York, he had a huge house, he clearly had lots of money to give her the lifestyle that she wanted. But she ends up going out with Dodi Fayed, obviously ending in a terrible, terrible car crash.

But his father, the owner of Harrods, Muhammad al-Fayyad, then goes on to be accused after he's died by more than 300 women. Of the worst kind of thing. The worst kind of sexual abuse. I mean, that almost puts Epstein actually, you know, in a different category. And I actually, this weekend when I was back in the UK, ran into someone who used to work at Harrods and I was asking them about the story. and he said, we used to hide the women employees when we knew Al-Faed was on the floor because he would come after them. No, old man Al-Fa-ed is clearly, clearly, he may establish he is the worst boss of all time.

Worst boss of all time. I mean, it's the scale of it. And in particular, you know, you think of Jimmy Saville, I mean, hundreds of children that he abused. It's just, I don't know. guys. It's just so weird. So weird. Anyway, we've got off track. We've gone off track. We were talking about Trump pardoning people. Jimmy Saville. Always get your always. I know. Sorry. Sorry. I always go back to Jimmy Saville because, again, hiding in plain sight. Muhammad Al Fayette, hiding in plain sight, Jeffrey Epstein. Actually not hiding in plain sight

because he wasn't really out there. In fact, he was phobic about going to restaurants and he liked to do everything in his own home. In a sense, he was. I mean, that's, that's, I'm not sure somebody like Mohamed Al-Faed was hiding this. I mean, the fact that he was jumping on people, the fact that he was, um, whatever he did. He was so malevolent. But, but he had the, the, he was all about respectability. Um, that was the Doty Fayed thing, Mary, Diana.

Jeffrey Epstein was, he actually. was a show-off. Wherever he went, it would be with three young women, always. It was as though he wanted, he wanted to be known for this. Maybe he wanted to be caught for this. Maybe he was, maybe, you know, and I always felt that it was, maybe it was some kind of joke that he was playing. Come get me or. Right, here I am, And here I am. Well, and also the conspiracy theories, you know, Muhammad Al-Fayyad accused Prince Philip, married to the queen, of murdering Diana because they didn't want her to marry his son. Yeah, no.

You know, in one of the things, one of the, one of the, one of the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, fact, this, that he went around. Have you, have you seen, you know, you know, have you know, you know, you know, you know, there's a lot of Trump, Trump talks about Epstein as, as, did you, have you seen this guy? Do you see the girls he's with all the time? Yeah. Okay. All right. So the other person that's in this is Lynn Forrester, who becomes Lynn Rothschild. Right. So, and this is, I mean, here, here is a person who has been on the edge of the, of the Epstein story, but the very edge. I mean, her name does not come up. And, and this is, This is significant because, you know, the Epstein story is always cast by, you know, he's a pedophile, it's young women. It's, um, but, but Lynn Forrester is not a young woman and she is a person of, of high standing and accomplishment who is central to the Epstein story. And Galane points to her here. I mean, her name is Lynn Forrester, but she marries a Rothschild and she takes over the Rothschild bank.

She is a banker. She takes over the bank. And who was she married to? Just remind me who she was married to first. Well, she was married to a guy by the name of Andrew Stein. That's right. Who was in the early 80s, the president of the New York City Council, then the structure has changed. And there's an, he, whatever that job is, the job, the job, the job title changes. But, but, but a politician in New York.

Um, and in fact, Epstein negotiates Lynn Forrester's divorce from Andrew Stein. Um, and the, the, um, Galane's implication is, I don't know this to be true, but her implication is that Jeffrey Epstein and Lynn Forrester had a relationship. But certainly they ultimately had a business relationship through the Ross Child Bank. And doesn't she also say that in fact it was Lynn Forrester who introduced Prince Andrew to Jeffrey Epstein while they were all on holiday in Nantucket? Right. So that's an interesting thing because again, it was always the surmise was that Galane had the Prince Andrew relationship and she brought him into the into the Epstein fold and so she's she's clearly distancing herself from that at this point okay so she's distancing herself from Prince Andrew

drive-by hit on Lynn Forrester slash Rothschild and so what you see is is also a circum Again, the view we have is Epstein surrounded by teenage girls. Right. And this suddenly is a view of Epstein surrounded by women who can... Highly accomplished women. Yes. Who can give him something. So, I mean, one does not negate the other, of course,

but it's interesting to see them contemporaneously. So one of the other reasons I found transcript so fascinating was that it does have clues about his business or how she understood his business. And there is a remarkable exchange where she's talking with Todd Blanche and he's trying to understand how Jeffrey Epstein made his money. And she says, he told me himself that he started a business where he looked for stolen money. So if somebody, let's see, I'm trying to think of some intelligent way to say it, but I can't think of anything. So let's say you have El Chapo. Okay, so pretty insane reference. Oh, God, I don't know where he comes from. But anyway,

we've got El Chapo, and El Chapo's laundering money or still, he's working with the Cinaloa cartel, and he steals money from the Cinaloa cartel, and he moves it to wherever. So he's got stolen money from the Cinola, goes to it. This didn't happen. I'm just, and you're like, where does this come from? extraordinary. Now, let me just, so the jail that Jeffrey Epstein died in was also the jail that housed El Chapo. Right. And the rules of this jail, you could stay out of the general population if your lawyers were there essentially babysitting you. And Epstein has, lawyers that were there from the from from from morning till so you're out of your cell as long as

you have a lawyer coming to talk to you about your case yes you're in the lawyers yes you just have to pay the lawyers to sit there all okay yes and it's very hard to find that many lawyers to pay so what they what epstein's lawyers did was hire the same lawyers who babysat el chapo it's just crazy now so i and i don't know if that's at all related to what galane is saying but it's that it's the strange intersections at these strange underbelly. So strange. It's so strange. We're just going to take a break for these messages.

And we are back and deep within the dark matter inside Trump's head. You know, I just want to wrap up what is inside Donald Trump's head here about Galane, which is that she comes from the same world that he comes from. So there is this sympathy. There is this, you know, this person who knows this person who does this and this is where the money moves and all that. That's Donald Trump's world. And there's no coincidence that Galane has known Donald Trump for many, many, many years. Right. And he was friendly with her father.

He must have looked at how his father ended up. No. And there is another aspect of this. So her father bought the Daily News, and that was a deal that both Epstein and Trump were involved in and encouraging Robert Maxwell to buy the Daily News. Obviously, that would be good for Trump because he's a tabloid figure, and Epstein fancied himself a guy behind them pulling the strings of the media. and Maxwell did buy it and then actually went into bankruptcy and everything bad happened. But even then, Epstein then helped Mort Zuckerman buy the Daily News out of bankruptcy.

So again, continuing this, who knows who, where does the money flow? And there you'll find Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. All right, so I'm going to dive into some comments because I promise we'll do it. And I'm always thrilled when people write to us, even when they write to us negatively. And I respond to as many as I can, but I can't always get to as many as we have because we have thousands. All right, this is from Pauline Brooks, 321. Putin told Trump to get rid of mail in voting. Trump tweets he wants to get rid of mail in voting.

What other orders did he get? and when will he implement? Any ideas? Well, what Putin said to me. Right. Okay. So, all right, to Michael, Trump was very quiet for some time when Elon Musk held court in the Oval Office with his son. Trump was very quiet, i.e. he wasn't talking all the time. Why? That's a good question. Well, he was fuming. Oh, he was fuming. That's from Joanne Newsom, 5202.

He was fuming. I mean, he's furious about this. What was this kid doing in the office? What was, you know, Musk doing? And ultimately this... What's happened to Elon? What are you hearing about what's happened to Elon? Well, I am. Elon is, I suppose, running a business, which is in some amount of turmoil.

But what's happened to America's party, the new party that's going to take 10 seats at mid-jured? I only know what I've read about this, which is that Elon seems to have gone. cold feet or thought better of this or Vance has talked him off the cliff or or he's biting his time and waiting to see. They're all biding their time, aren't they? I mean, again, one looks at Trump and he just, I know that this irritates the White House and it gets under his skin, but he doesn't look healthy. Your point, that they assume he's just going to keel over one day, that this is not a long, slow decline, that it's full tilt until he stops means that everybody is just waiting to pick up where he'll know.

No, I mean, I'm always skeptical of death watches. Well, and he looks very robust still. Yeah, because he's, he may have slowed down, but he's still robust. It's kind of like a Hail Mary, you know, that we have a problem here. This is a catastrophe. Donald Trump, how can we solve it? Well, if he would only die. But I think that the truth is, as politicians and presidents get older and older, which they do because everybody kind of does.

But he's the oldest president we've ever had. Yeah, no, no. I mean, I think that we're seeing this and we'll probably see an old, we may very well see an even older president than that. And so the new norm is different. old people at that age are not singularly healthy in the way that someone 20 or 30 years old, 30 years younger would be. And they carry on even with swollen ankles. And remember when people thought that it was a sign that Obama was getting older because he had gray hair, as the job turned him gray.

Okay. Now, someone here, H. Vanda P. 578, said that was not Putin. in Alaska. How gullible the wild is, it was very easy to see. Putin, yes or no? I'm not even going there. Okay. A bit of a conspiracy theorist there, I think. I have a question, says Alicia Tomolino. I have a question, what does Rubio do to stop this insanity? I remember hearing Rubio express a very negative opinion of Putin. I mean, I have no idea what Rubio does. Apparently, Nothing at all. Nothing at all.

Or if I had to look inside of Rubio's head, it's, I will fix this all when I am president. Yeah, that's what I think, too. He's just sort of sitting there biding his time and he's as quiet as he can possibly be, right? Notice he says nothing. I was very struck when they had the leaders over sitting around the table, the European leaders, and J.D. Vance, who'd been so aggressive during the first Zelensky meeting was clearly just silence. Clearly Trump had said to him, do not speak. and there was a little row of them, Rubio Hexlis, and none of them said anything.

All right, final question. I hope you to bring in some professional psychologists who can explain the behaviour in more depth. It's so deeply rooted and there are so many causes and possibly various reasons for his behaviour. I love Michael's insights. I think you're an amazing interviewer, Joanna. Thank you for that. I didn't know that was coming. I would love to see someone guess with you that can give even deeper insights.

Do we know anybody? We're as good as you get. We're as good as you get. Sorry about that. All right. Michael Wolfe, so much fun to go inside Trump's head with you. I wouldn't want to go in there on my own. You know, I should send you,

you should find a way to do that sometime. That would be very scary. I mean, I'm just trying to think it really is worthwhile to sit with him. Is it there? Yeah, no, no. It's an experience. like no other.

I have never met the man. I've never even been in a room with him, actually. Yeah, I know, isn't that odd? I spent nearly 30 years in New York, I've never come across him and never been in the same room knowingly. Never went on the set of The Apprentice. He never called you at New York Magazine?

Never called me at New York Magazine. I mean, I was, I don't know, there were a couple other people, I think, that got his call, but I was the, I received a lot of his calls to the man. Well, I think he'd probably much rather talk to you than me then. But I've never come across him and I couldn't be more interested. Come across his children, but not him. Well, I think we should set you up.

Michael Wolf, what fun. And onwards to our next episode next Tuesday. If you have been, thank you for joining us. Share this podcast with all your friends. Comment on YouTube. Please subscribe on YouTube. and on Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts, tell all your friends, tell all the people in your office.

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