The Daily Beast Podcast - The U.S. Is Giving the Rest of the World Abandonment Issues

Episode Date: August 17, 2021

In this episode of The New Abnormal, former war correspondent, staff writer at the New Yorker and CNN global affairs analyst Susan Glasser explains how the Taliban takeover in Afghanistan is everyone���s damn fault, even Biden’s. Plus, Texas Congresswoman Sylvia Garcia rips into Gov. Greg Abbot and then Adam Harris, author of The State Must Provide, breaks down “racism hush money” that some states with HBCUs are getting from the federal government. If you haven't heard, every single week The New Abnormal does a special bonus episode for Beast Inside, the Daily Beast’s membership program. where Sometimes we interview Senators like Cory Booker or the folks who explain our world in media like Jim Acosta or Soledad O’Brien. Sometimes we just have fun and talk to our favorite comedians and actors like Busy Phillips or Billy Eichner and sometimes its just discussing the fuckery. You can get all of our episodes in your favorite podcast app of choice by becoming a Beast Inside member where you’ll support The Beast’s fearless journalism. Plus! You’ll also get full access to podcasts and articles. To become a member head to newabnormal.thedailybeast.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Molly Jong-Fast and welcome to The Daily Beast, The New Abnormal. I'm a left-wing pundit and an editor at large at The Daily Beast. We're here to have fun, sharp conversations with some of the smartest people in media, politics, and science that help make what's happening in the country and the world clearer. Our world has been turned up to a down. On the new abnormal, we'll talk about the people who got us into this mess and figure out how to get ourselves out of it. And I'm producer Jesse Kennan. I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. Today we have an excellent show.

Congresswoman Sylvia Garcia of Texas's 29th District is going to talk to us about what's going on with COVID in Texas. And then we'll talk to Adam Harris, the author of The States Must Provide, why America's colleges have always been unequal and how to set them right. But first, we have staff writer at the New Yorker and CNN Global Affairs Analyst, Susan Glasser, to talk to us about the withdrawal in Afghanistan. Welcome back to New York. You have normal Susan Glasser. Thank you so much, Molly, for having me.

Well, I'm so excited to have you because, you know, yesterday was like this seminal and very important day in what's happening in Afghanistan. And you are a person who has been covering this and editing this and writing this for, you know, because you're young, not that long, but long enough to understand what the hell is going on. So can you explain to me what is going on for our little? listeners. It's one of those things that's a disaster that it's accurate to say is both 20 years in the making and also very, very mishandled just in the last few months since April, right? So you can focus on the policy fight and why were we there in the first place and people who are defending Joe Biden tend to take that view. Or you can focus on the really abysmal execution of the withdrawal of the last few months. And that's where you see a lot of Republicans who supported

Donald Trump's decision to withdraw from Afghanistan. And even Joe Biden's to a certain extent, that's where you have them shouting and screaming. And frankly, lots of nonpartisan people saying this is a disaster for the United States. Yeah. Let's talk about what went wrong yesterday. Because it seems like a lot went wrong yesterday. Well, the problem of what went wrong yesterday is what went wrong two weeks ago and two months ago. It's failure to anticipate a very realistic scenario. And if you don't plan against the very realistic scenario of the Taliban sweeping to control very quickly

upon the American military withdrawal, then you weren't prepared. And so it's not really that they mishandled yesterday. And arguably, I'm sure the military, folks would say, listen, actually, we got all our people out safely. And basically the U.S. military has been extracted more or less safely in the month since April.

and the U.S. diplomatic presence was basically entirely evacuated yesterday. According to the reports, I've seen 500 personnel were taken out. And right now, they're evacuating other people, Afghan interpreters and support staff and other Americans who were still stuck in Kabul. But the U.S. State Department people, except for a small skeleton crew who are remaining at the airport, are gone. So they might say, well, that didn't get screwed up. The screw up is in failing to understand what was going to unfold and planning against it. And the inexcusable, in particular, failure to have a decent plan for extracting the 18,000 Afghan interpreters who helped the United States and their families and others who worked for the U.S. groups and NGOs and the like. I mean, that's what's just appalling to me.

Apparently, according to the Pentagon State Department's statement on Sunday evening, they only managed to get 2,000 of those people out before the Taliban took over Kabul, 2,000 out of 20,000. I mean, it reminds me of what happened with the Kurds under Trump. You know, I was just talking about this with someone, Molly. The problem is there's so many horrible instances of the Americans in history, in recent history even, deserting our allies and really, you know, subjecting them to terrible fates. It's a very undermining thing when it comes to anyone having confidence in the U.S.

and its presence in the world. The Kurds is one example. Frankly, we've abandoned Afghans before whom we supported during the 1980s war with the Soviet Union and then basically walk away. And that country descended into the civil war from which it's never recovered to this day. Oh my. I was just on CNN and on right before me was Leon Panetta. I was watching that and thinking, what? Right? Leon Panetta talking about the Bay of Pates. And Joe Biden, I never, if you told me six months ago that Joe Biden, whose whole brand at this moment was being untrump, i.e. being competent,

being careful, not to mention his decades of experience on the international stage. If you told me that within six months, you'd have Leon Panetta on CNN saying that this was a Bay of Pigs moment for Joe Biden. Honestly, I don't think I'd have believed it. What can Biden do now to fix this? Well, first of all, he has to take responsibility. And he has not done that. And he has not leveled with the American. And he has to do that.

That is the job of a president, and certainly a president who claims to be the und Donald Trump. So he's got to do that. And, you know, what I've heard in the last few days from Biden's administration, advisors is frankly a lot of obfuscation, a lot of bleam shifting and a lot of, well, our policy is right. So, you know, I don't want to talk about the execution. You know, you don't get a pass like that, guys. And I think that it's kind of shocking to me that that's the course that they've taken so far. So I'll be looking to see whether Biden shifts that tone. The other thing is that Biden, as a politician whose brand is empathy, has been strikingly cold and not empathetic when it comes to the plate

of our allies and partners and blaming this whole collapse on the Afghan army, I think really obfuscates the American responsibility for a lot of what's gone on here as well. Right. But the Afghan army was highly problematic. Absolutely. I almost feel like America is to blame, and especially Donald Trump, right, because there was early negotiation where Donald Trump was negotiating more with the Taliban than with the Afghan army, right?

Look, I think that, you know, this, the die was cast when Trump and Mike Pompeo and Zalmehalla Azad made a deal with the Taliban. They signed in February 2020. The cut out the Afghan government, as you said. Right. Is that nuts? Yeah. Yeah, it was. And it was a terrible deal. Biden was under no obligation, however, to stick with it. And he did so. Right. Donald Trump could have made that deal effective during his presidency. He chose not to do so, in effect, giving a veto power over to whoever would be the next president. And Joe Biden didn't have to keep Zalmeh, Halal-Assad, as his negotiator with the Taliban. He chose to do so. Biden didn't have to keep this timetable. He already changed the timetable for Trump. It was going to be a May withdrawal back. If they're now claiming that

they didn't inherit a viable plan to remove the troops and the diplomatic personnel and others from the Trump administration, well, then they could have pushed the timetable back because they already did it once. So those are things that Biden owns. And, you know, I have to say it's just, I'm exhausted and so appalled at the, I suppose, very predictable, partisan, you know, incredible, hypocritical, first of all, people, like millions of people will be suffering as a result of this. Like, can we just be decent enough to focus on, you know, getting our act together and what could be done now to, you know, remedy the situation? I don't see that happening. Unfortunately, in this partisan moment, you know, the last few days has been this just appalling, disgusting, like, you know,

Trump and his people saying it's all Biden's fault. Biden's people saying it's all Trump's fault or never mind, you know, our policy decision is right and C, we told you so, the Taliban were always going to win. Well, if they really told us so, then how come Joe Biden said on July 8th that the Taliban were highly unlikely to take over the entire country and override? Right. No, I mean, it's, it strikes me as a situation where every single person except for Barbara Lee from California is wrong. Right? Because she's the only person who didn't support the war. Well, no, Molly, I actually, I don't agree with you there.

Tell me. Like, look, I was there in 2001. My brief sojourn as an actual war correspondent was really in Afghanistan and Iraq. I was the Moscow correspondent for the Washington Post. I ended up there. The thing is, is that this didn't start out about nation building. It didn't start out about training the Afghan National Army. It was a very clear cut. You know, we have to eliminate this safe haven for al-Qaeda from where the 9-11 attacks and the United States were planned and executed.

And, you know, the whole world supported that. Russia supported that goal. NATO is the first and only time in its history invoked its Article 5, all for one, one-for-all, self-defense in response to this. for Republicans, frankly, I actually find it to be kind of a dangerous argument now. You know, that elides 20 years worth of bad decisions that came after that, that have nothing to do with the original decision itself. And frankly, I understand to a certain extent why, you know, people are making that case, especially because I was really disappointed to see people like

Jake Sullivan, the National Security Advisor, come out and say, oh, well, you know, we've achieved our mission and, you know, we are only there doing this limited al-Qaeda destroy. mission, come on. I mean, that's not what you were doing for 20 years. What do you think, though, now as you're seeing this unfold, like what are the big mistakes that we're making covering it? Well, I think there is, because we are in such a partisan moment, I think there's way too much of a kind of pointless blame game about, you know, is it Trump, is it Biden? It's Bush, it's Obama, It's Trump, it's Biden. There's very little coverage, frankly. And I've been surprised by this, but there's been really not enough coverage about what can they do now? And what is our policy?

Our previously stated policy has collapsed. Because when Biden announced this decision in April, he said we're going to maintain a presence. It's just not going to be military. We're going to work with the Afghan government. We're going to do all these things. Well, now the Afghan government's collapsed. So I don't know what our policy is. Number one. Number two, what are we doing to help those people there. We have a moral obligation to the thousands of people who work with us. I haven't heard really a clear articulation from the Pentagon, from the State Department, or from Biden. How many people are we going to give asylum to in the United States? And what are we doing to make international diplomacy to get refugee corridors open? It's just the basics of diplomacy in a

situation like this when there is a hostile takeover of the country. I don't see that happening. And I would like to know a lot more focus on that, it seems to me. This is very helpful and important. I'm curious to know when you watch all this partisanship, it does seem to me like there's so much, like, for example, this dunking on Clarissa Ward is in Afghanistan right now, in a car, with no protection, risking her life, right? I mean, I don't know that I would be doing that, right? and we have Ted Cruz dunking on her for saying that it was a, you know, it's a longer,

it's a sort of clip taken out of context that she says, well, even though there's chanting death to America, they seem somewhat peaceful. It's a clip taken out of context, but he's using it to dunk on her. She's risking her life in Afghanistan right now. He's a U.S. senator. Is this what you're talking about when you say partisan rancor out of control? and not enough humanity. Yeah, I mean, that's one example of it.

I mean, look, you can, there's, there's, it's, it's, it happens all the time. So it's not that I'm surprised, but, you know, the outbreak of shamelessness. You know, you have Mike Pompeo who literally negotiated this terrible deal with the Taliban, you know, and who literally months ago was like, why isn't Joe Biden getting all the troops out faster? Now he's like, oh my God, what a terrible debacle. I mean, you know, pick your poison. Every single politician, it seems, in Washington is consumed with, you know, sort of litigating the partisan point. And, you know, these are the same people who made this debacle happen. And I don't

think anyone listening to this should be under any illusions. Our politicians lied to the American people and they lied to the Afghan people. And by the way, folks, that was Democrats as well as Republicans. Don't be misled. I know we're in a partisan moment. You know, both teams can lie to you guys. Both teams have done so in this case. Yeah. And it really is a case for, how important journalism is. Yeah, I mean, it really is. Accountability, although, again, it's also about the limits of what can happen

at a moment when the public isn't open to the facts. And, you know, so the information was, we understood, if you were paying attention, that the Afghan National Army was largely a hollow shell, that these numbers of 300,000 were bogus. There were reports, you know, four times a year from the Cigra, the special inspector general for Afghanistan, they made it clear there was enormous amounts of

corruption, that the readiness wasn't what it was. We knew these things. We knew these things. We chose collectively to believe the easy lie rather than the hard truth. And that applies more or less across the board, obviously, with some notable exceptions in both parties. Yeah, that's a really good point. This was so helpful for me and just because you have, you really are, you really know what you're talking about and I really appreciate it. And thank you so much for giving us time and good luck on your book. Oh, well, thank you so much, Molly. And thank you for, you know, bringing attention to this. I just want to say, like, it's just, take a second and just be sad for a lot of people who are going to suffer as a result. And if you've ever been to Afghanistan and met, you know, a woman or a girl,

who was liberated in the last few years and now faces the possibility of a return to, you know, a medieval theocracy that's going to lock her in her home. Just think about that, please, and not just about partisan American politics. Oh, thank you so much. So important. Thank you, Susan. Oh, it's great to talk. Thank you.

Hey, folks. If you haven't heard every single week we do a special bonus episode for Beast Inside, the Daily Beast membership program. Sometimes we interview senators like Corey Booker or the folks who can. explain what's happening behind the scenes in media, like Jim Acosta or Soledadad O'Brien. Sometimes we just have fun and talk to our favorite comedians and actors like Busy Phillips or Billy Eichner, and sometimes we just have friends around to analyze what's happening in the news. You can get all of our episodes in your favorite podcast app of choice by becoming a beast inside member

where you'll support the beast fearless journalism, as well as getting full access to podcasts and articles. To become a member, head to New Abnormal.com. That's New Abnormal.com.com. Congresswoman Sylvia Garcia represents Texas's 29th district and sits on the Judiciary Committee, as well as the Committee on Financial Services. Welcome back to the new abnormal Representative Garcia. Thank you. We're so happy to have you. You are in the great state of Texas. Can you explain to me what is happening with your governor and COVID restrictions?

Because it seems like, as we say in the scientific terms, there's fuckery. Well, there's certainly trickery for sure, too. Let me tell you, it just baffles the mind, completely baffles the mind, that our governor seems to be more focused on arresting House Democrats than he is in tackling this virus. You know, he seems to speak from both sides of the spectrum here because in one term, he says, I don't want government mandates. I don't think I should be telling you what to do, but he turns around and mandates to the local governments, the county governments, the city governments, the school districts, to not issue any mandates, but he can, mandating them not to do a mandate. I know that sounds like trickery. Yeah. But the bottom line is it's more than that because this trickery is borders unjust, the malfeasance, because when you do this, you do not allow the local government.

and especially the school districts to make that decision on whether or not to mask up. And that is critical right now because Texas is on the edge of being, you know, what are the lead states in this numbers in terms of our positivity rate on the number of people dying and the number of beds that get filled that we don't have any more beds in some counties, ICU beds, pediatric ICU beds. So it's getting to a critical point. But he doesn't want mandates unless they're from him to the local governments. And school districts have started saying, well, we're not going to listen to that.

And of course, you saw that our Texas Supreme Court at the moment has decided to cut status quo to remain. And they have temporarily blocked any of the local governments from moving forward. And there'll be a hearing final. So this is temporary. I would hope that ultimately the Supreme Court sides with children, signs for the health care of our state. So this is pretty crazy stuff going on right now in Texas. Well, it is because it doesn't make scientific sense. It doesn't make common sense.

And more importantly to Texas, it doesn't make Texas sense. Because in Texas, we take great pride and taking responsibility. And we know that adults can do that. But when it comes to children, who is responsible for the children? It's the parents, but yes, the schools. Once you put them in school, that responsibility is on the school. So all these school board members are also usually parents. They know their school districts.

They know the situation with COVID. They know that whether or not their community has been tested. They know that their community has had the shot. They know that their community is masking up. So we should really leave it up to local governments, local control, so that they can best follow the sign. follow the health care needs of their local communities, for the governor to be mandating this

and trying to interfere with local governments on this very, very critical health issue. It's just obscene. It's inhumane. So you're saying that the Republican governor here is trying to regulate something that he shouldn't be? Well, I think he needs to be the responsible one, and he needs to do, like the rest of the country, You've seen us in the U.S. Capitol, I mean, we're following the science. We're doing what the house physician says. And we've got to make sure that as we see this Delta virus grow, the numbers are there in Texas. We're vaccinated, maybe like about 50%. That means one or number two or not. We have a positivity rate. It was over 10%, which is high. We've got hospitals in Houston. We take great pride in Houston that being the largest medical center in the

world and we have we have a hospital for everything but when our own texas children's hospital is out of beds and is having to divert children somewhere else you know that's real right so i don't know why he's just being blindly following the politics and not the signs yeah i can't imagine it's almost like he's a partisan hack talk to me about the democratic lawmakers that he wants to arrest well he's very focused on that. I mean, he's putting a lot of energy and trying to get some of the law enforcement to, I heard from one house member who was a friend of mine that they had sent troopers to a couple of members' houses looking for them. He's ordered them to go find them and arrest them and to bring them to the Capitol to vote. And he wants them to vote on some really, really heinous bills.

Right, of course. You know, this is what we're calling a suppression session because they want to suppress the vote. They want to suppress our ability to have access to the ballot. They want to suppress our ability to register voters. They want to suppress our ability to vote freely and without interference or fear at the ballot box. So he's so focused on that that, frankly, he needs to put all his energy and resources right now in making sure that we get the help that all these counties need to fight the virus. You know, we were almost there with COVID, but now Delta has hit us hard. And remember, the Delta variant is hitting children harder and stronger than COVID did the adults. I'm being told by

people in the medical field that the kids that are coming in are like really sick. And you're talking young, young kids, tender age. And there's nothing more important in our great state than to protect our children and to make sure that they all get the medical care that they need and so that we can better protect them for the future. But, you know, he, you know, listen to this one. He had the T.A commissioner who he appoints give a directive to the school districts, again, a mandate, which he abhors, but a lesser his, a mandate that the schools do not, do not have to advise parents. when a child test positive in a school. You don't have to tell the parents.

No, I know. He's against contact tracing. Right. And he's also telling them that they don't have to do contact tracing. And he's also telling parents that if their child is in a classroom with someone that tests positive for her school, that they don't have to self-quarantine. Now, that goes against the science, and it goes against common sense. I mean, if a child gets liced in the classroom,

And what do they do? Right. No, they have to report. They report and they go in there with a comb and they just comb every child and try to see which child has it and try to find a way to get into it. You know, they have the flu, whatever it is. But you're not going to do that with a deathly variant. Now, that's just not even good Texas common sense.

So here's a question for you. And neither of us are doctors, though, I am a terrible hypochondriac. Do you think that we're not? being told that Delta is more severe for children than the previous viruses? No, we are being told. I've heard it more than once, and it's been on the news. It's been on the news nationally and locally here at Houston. I mean, I keep hearing that it is more deadly and it is hitting disproportionately children more. Remember that COVID was hitting our elderly and senior population, and it was hitting them hard. I'm hearing that the Delta sort of similarly

is hitting young children. And I know some parents, including my very own niece, that's got two little ones in one's pre-K and one's first grade. She was really nervous about sending her kids to school. And when she hears things like this coming up from the governor's office, I mean, she called me. She said, and she said, what should I do? I just don't know what to do.

And I said, well, look, you're lucky in the sense that you send them to a parochial school. It's a Catholic school. The rules don't apply to them. So there's the other little hiccup. Yes, and private schools too, right? Because that's a private school. Like a Catholic school is a private school. It doesn't apply to them, number one.

But that's the good news because at least in my niece's case, although all schools should be treated the same, this time it works to the benefit of some of the children in private schools because at least in my niece's case, they are wearing masks. My little nieces and nephews went to school with their masks and their teachers are working. in math. So you have a situation here where the Catholic Church is more pro-science than the Republican party. Well, I don't know if that's the case because, you know, I have debates with my own church sometimes on other issues. Right. But I'm just saying on this one, it strikes me. On this one, and I don't know that every, whether that's a rule in the whole church or just this

particular church, but I'm glad that this time they're on the right side of science, I just wish that My governor, who is Catholic also like I am, would follow the same suit because I don't like these two classes of schools. Every school should have the same rules, whether you're a parochial school or private school, a tech school, a business school. A lot of these Republican electeds have kids in private school. Do you feel that this is in some way, a way of them targeting public schools? No, because, you know, remember, I served in the Texas Senate.

They do tend to always treat private schools differently and make an exception. They are given an exception by law to all the TEA, which is the Texas Education Administration rules, and the TEA only rules apply to public schools. Many of the TA rules don't even apply to charter schools. So we have different classes of schools in Texas. I've never liked that. I served on the Education Committee, and I was always a very strong supporter of all the rules applying to all the schools that you shouldn't treat a public school and a charter school and a private

school differently. Yeah. What do you think people in Texas can do now? Number one, parents need to speak out. They need to speak up. They need to visit their school to know what the rules are. I advise my needs to visit with a school to check to see if the school was going to require all the teachers and all the staff to be vaccinated because I think they should be. advised my niece to make sure she knew whether or not they were going to be providing shots for those people that came to the school and were not vaccinated to check to see if they were testing regularly to make sure that everybody was negative at a school. And I mean like everybody, whether it's the janitor, the bus driver, every staff member should be fully vaccinated.

And if not, they should routinely be having tests because remember, the very is hitting people that are that are fully vaccinated. So just because I'm vaccinated doesn't mean I may not catch it. So you may still have to do, you know, random tests of people that are vaccinated to make sure that we haven't caught it somehow. So that has to be ongoing. And not just in the school, but in every public facility. That's why I was so glad that President Biden said that all federal employees and contracts, tractors were going to have to wear the mask and hopefully soon we'll all be also be vaccinated.

And I think every public employer should do that. It begins with us setting the example. So the parents should find out and make sure that their child is protected. Because again, when a parent drops off that child at school, you entrust that school for their care and their custody because they're in control for those six hours or eight hours, whatever the case is. with that child. So they should make sure they know what's going on at school. And if they want a mask rule, then they should go to the school board or send a message of support because some of our school board members are taking the hard vote to say, you know, we're going to buck the governor. We want our kids protected. But they're being ridiculed and they're getting hostility and hate

mail from the other side. And it's not a good situation. We've got to be there to support our school board members and our teachers. Talk to me about hospital overflow because we're seeing lots of pictures out of your state of flooded hospitals and different, you know, medical questions of how people are going to get treated. Are you guys prepared? Well, I'll tell you this, that, you know, Houston and our region have always been in a very, you know, can-do spirit kind of city. We have always been very welcoming. If a sick child arrives at any hospital, that child is going to be taken care of. And if there's no space, we're going to find this space.

I'm sure you read about the child that was taken by air flight to another city because there was no pediatric ICU beds. That's going to happen. And if the hospitals will cooperate and coordinate our emergency management group under the leadership of Judge Idago, we'll make sure that we get the care for every child that needs it. and if we can't do it here, we'll find a cooperating city or county hospital to send them to. And we'll step up.

We always have. And, you know, the governor, again, speaking from both sides, you know, says, you don't really need a mask. We don't need a mask mandate. But then on the other side, turned around and asked the hospitals to stop elective surgeries because he knew that the hospitals are going to get overflowed. The hospital was having problems. So again, it's both sides of. some would say the issue. And it just shows you how he says one thing here, but does the opposite here. And frankly, it confuses voters. It confuses people because, you know, it's like, what's the real truth?

Is the hospitals really at that level that they can't do elective surgery because they're not required masks? So I think we need more consistency. We need more uniformity. And most of all, we need to follow the signs and just do what's necessary. even if it's only out of abundance of caution. But we need to protect our public. And for me, you know, it's now about the kids. We've got to make sure that our kids are safe and secure and can stay healthy and not get sick when they're at school. You know, somebody was talking, asked me a couple of days ago, what did I think when some hospital person was asked a question repeatedly and finally was asked, well, what do you think may happen? And he just kind of said, well, we won't have a bed until another child dies.

And then he got criticized because he was very, you know, somber and graphic. And it was like, well, no, it's reality. So I have one last question for you. One of the talking points on Fox News that has really been sort of jacked up by your senators is the idea that COVID is coming from migrants on the border. And this is this sort of Fox News talking point. The idea is that Biden is allowing migrants to come in, immigrants, really immigrants, but immigrants to come in through the border and they are not vaccinated and they are giving the people of Texas COVID. Can you debunk this for me, please? It is just outrageously false.

I mean, the reality is that this CDC guidelines on to maintain the health and safety of our citizens is being followed. if any adult or family unit present at the border under the CDC guidelines, they're being set back because of COVID. They're not coming through. The only people that are coming through are children that are unaccompanied and they're under the age of 18. One of the first things that they do is get a screening, a screening that will include a test for COVID.

And if a child does test positive, then the child is immediately isolated. They are not let in and they're not going to be freely, you know, run or wandering around in Texas. So the idea that Mexicans are coming across the border giving Americans COVID is a complete and utter false Fox News talking point. It's just a talking point. And in fact, I'll have to check, but we all. had an agreement with Mexico who was testing people on the other side. Because remember, a lot of the people that are presenting themselves at the border have been in Mexico for some time. And there's an agreement with Mexico that Mexico is also testing people even before they present themselves to the border. But the basic fact is that there's not all these, especially

adults, coming through, you know, with any kind of. a virus, at least of all COVID, because they're not being let in. I mean, adults and family units that are presented are sent back. It's unaccompanied children, and the children are immediately screened, and they're immediately tested. I've been at the border where they do this. I've seen it. I've watched it. It's working, and the children are isolated, and they're not let out even with the other children until they get through their isolation period, just like anybody else. But even after that, the children go to a detention center or a holding center until they're reunited with family members. So this talking point is a scary point. It's a partisan talking point. And it is one meant to put fear in people and causes people to be more and more anti-immigrant.

Thank you so much, Representative Garcia. I'm so glad we got you. Absolutely. All right. Thank you. Adam Harris is a writer at the Atlantic and author of The States Must Provide why America's colleges have always been unequal and how to set them right. Welcome to the new abnormal, Adam. Thank you so much for having me. We're very excited to have you. Talk to me about college, because this is a fascinating, fascinating book.

First of all, how did you decide to write this book? It's called The State Must Provide. Yeah, so a while back, I was enrolled in college at Alabama. A&M University, which is a historically black college in normal Alabama. And, you know, this was sort of a, you know, a family school, right? My mom went to Alabama A&M. My sister was enrolled there at the time. She was playing volleyball. My uncle was a drum major there back in the 80s. So it was really sort of a family school. But when I finally enrolled there, it became, you know, my own kind of home. But, you know, when I'm at home, I kind of like to get away. And so I got out one day. And

And there's another public college in Huntsville. It's about 10 minutes away. It's called University of Alabama Huntsville. So I drive over to campus. Their library was open three hours longer than ours. So I was like, at least I can kind of get a little bit of work done. And so I get to UAH and I notice a couple of things. One, they have some pretty new buildings on campus. The lawns are pretty finely manicured. I look around campus and there are a lot of students that look like me. has about 10% black students, while the, you know, the broader area of Huntsville is about 30% black. And so that difference kind of struck me as odd. And so the roots of this book were we're really trying to figure out if my experience, you know, noticing those differences between that institution and my own were sort of anomalous or whether that was the sort of norm for students. Yeah, so interesting. And what did you find?

So as I got into covering higher education, I worked at The Chronicle of Higher Education before I moved over to the Atlantic and really started to poke around at the roots of federal higher education policy. And what I found was, you know, if you go back to the 1850s, 1860s, when when, you know, lawmakers are really, you know, bouncing around this idea of how do you open up higher ed more broadly to Americans. And when I say Americans here, I'm mainly meaning white men, they create this idea of this sort of land grant institution. And so these are the 1862 Morrill Act, effectively gave states money or land that they could sell in order to fund a university.

And so out of that, you get Penn State University, you get Iowa State University, Oregon State, Oklahoma states, Auburn, all of these, you know, very prominent institution grew out of this land grant act. But black students could not attend those institutions. So sort of the foundations of, you know, the state higher education system, as we recognize today, really grew out of an unequal proposition from the federal government. And on top of that, I really sort of came to understand the ways that not only was the higher education system created unequally, But it was sustained and defended and maintained through a series of state policy, federal policy, as well as court cases that sort of upheld that unequal system. Yeah, it strikes me as that the deck was really stacked against historically black universities. Yes, absolutely. So I point in the book to Mississippi, for example. So just after the Civil War, as white students,

were getting ready to re-enroll at the University of Mississippi, their parents were very afraid that their students would ultimately end up going to school with black students. And so the professors at the University of Mississippi wrote a letter to the local paper and said that they would rather resign, that the parents shouldn't worry because they would resign rather than allow their institution to enroll a black student. Meanwhile, at the same time as this is happening, you have the creation of Alcorn State University in Mississippi. It was founded in 1871, as a historically black college, and they were given a $50,000 per year appropriation by the state legislature. This is the reconstruction legislature,

a $50,000 per year appropriation for at least 10 years. But as the so-called redeemer swept in with their quote-unquote white revolution, by 1875, that appropriation was reduced to $15,000. A year later in 1876, that appropriation got reduced again to $1,000. To $1,75,000. A year later, in 1876, that appropriation got reduced again to $5,500. And so you start to see the development of, you know, this increased stratification of, okay, this place with wealth and growing wealth and resources in the University of Mississippi that is literally saying we would rather close and educate black students. And meanwhile, you have the place that is educating black students that is being, you know,

really drained of its resources. You really start to see how the stratification of wealth and resources in higher education begins to develop. What are you seeing now? I mean, has this been fixed? I mean, obviously it hasn't, but I'm asking you like a sort of broader question there. Yeah, yeah. So what we are seeing now is that a sort of greater concentration of wealth and resources in higher education

in the hands of a select class of institutions. And those are the institutions that black students are less likely to attend. If you look at a place like North Carolina where, you know, something like more than 75% of black students in North Carolina, attend one of the five historically black colleges in the state or the state's community colleges. And oftentimes, you know, those are going to be the institutions with fewer dollars. So, you know, even though black students are, you know, they can attend any institution that they would like to at this point if they are accepted into those institutions. oftentimes those institutions aren't accepting or enrolling high, high shares of black students, those ones with the most resources. So a place like Auburn University, for example, a land grant institution,

an institution which in the 1980s, on the same day that Bo Jackson won the Heisman Trophy from Auburn University as the best college football player in the country, a federal judge on that same day said that Auburn was the most segregated institution in the state. And they had about two or three percent black students at the time. Fast forward to around 2002, and they have about five percent black students. Today, there are fewer black students at Auburn University than there were, not percentage, but total number of black students than there were in 2002. And the university has grown by thousands of students since 2002. So the sort of stratification in higher education has not gotten much better. And the federal government, you know, has not really,

really been investigating states to ensure that they are living up to their requirements under federal law. Yeah, I'm shocked that the federal government is continuing this shitty racist policy. Yeah, it's been interesting. I talked to several federal, kind of former and current federal officials at the Department of Education and the Office of Civil Rights, and over the last several years. And they tell me that states have sort of grown complacent and their understanding of what the federal government will and will not do in order to keep them in compliance with the law. And some of this, of course, is due to administration turnover. And anytime there's a new administration, they have new priorities. But states are pretty sure that no matter which

administration is in office, this will, the kind of idea of desegregation and higher education, the idea of this increased stratification higher ed is not something that states need to worry about the federal government investigating. It seems, I mean, it seems like such an easy fix, but I know it's not because you need to get people to care. Education is so incredibly important. And then you have, but it does seem like it gets relegated to a sort of not as important status in the federal government. Yes. Even though, right, so if you think about kind of K-12, people often say, oh, well, the federal government should be investigating K-12, they should be doing more. And they should, right? But the federal government actually has less of a role in K-12 than they do in higher education, whether that is policing higher education. Oftentimes for K-12, that falls to the state. The federal government actually plays a significant role in higher education funding and higher education policy. And yet they've taken this very hands-off approach to sort of civil rights in higher ed. Yeah, it's nuts to me.

I mean, it just strikes me as like, if Democrats are as anti-racist as they claim to be, they should get going on this right away because this is a fundamental way in which there is injustice in America. Absolutely. There are still several states that have not proven to the federal government that they have desegregated their higher education systems. Oh, I believe it. What states are they? Maryland, but Maryland actually may have recently petitioned the government to get out because there are a couple of ways that you can get out from federal monitoring. And that's one of them is settling with the states, so or with your HBCUs. And so Maryland recently settled HBCUs. What does that mean?

Recently Maryland said that they would pay their HBCUs $577 million over 10 years split between the four HBCUs to sort of settle this more than a decade long lawsuit. to basically discrimination at the colleges, but it's like a lot of money. It's not. It's not, exactly. And we've seen what happens when a state settled. So in the early 2000s, Mississippi settled with its HBCUs to basically finish a decades long. This was about three decades long lawsuit about their historically black colleges. And they gave their HBCUs $500 million over 17 years split between the three colleges.

And when I went to Mississippi to sort of survey the colleges and do the sort of eye test of, okay, has this actually changed things, you can sort of still very clearly see the vestiges of discrimination in the system, whether that's deferred maintenance on buildings, whether that is unnecessary program duplication. But on top of that, right, the University of Mississippi can make $500 million in five years of private donations. So to think that $500 million over 17 years split between three colleges is going to sort of fundamentally change the picture is bananas to me. It just doesn't compute. And so, you know, these states, so Texas, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Florida, they are still under this federal monitoring, but the monitoring is not very, it's not very tight. And the states don't believe that the federal government will really do much of anything in the way of penalizing these colleges or the states. Some good news is that Howard University is killing it. Yes.

Can you talk about that? Because I feel like that is really good news for all HBCUs. Do you agree or am I being overly simplistic? No, I think that the success of Howard has in some ways brought a renewed spotlight. to the sector, over the last several years, HPCUs have actually been in the spotlight in a way that they have not in the past. And I think people are recognizing the importance of the institutions.

But what I will say is, you know, in some ways, Howard's growth is anomalous in higher education or in the sector of HBCUs, because, you know, their endowment is, you know, leagues higher than most HBCUs are. And I think that if, if the prominence of Howard kind of opens philanthropist eyes, opens state lawmakers' eyes, opens federal lawmakers' eyes to the importance of these institutions that, even though HBCUs are about

3% of the nonprofit four-year colleges in the nation, they educate about 25% of black STEM graduates, 50% of black lawyers and doctors, 80% of black judges. And so, you know, these are not just historically important institutions, but currently important institutions. And even beyond on their ability to educate that sort of upper middle class of black people. They also, you know, do the yeoman's work of educating low-income black people. So, yeah, and it's like 60% of HBCU students are Pell eligible, so eligible for federal grants for low-income students. I am curious to know what can people who are listening to this do

to support HBCUs and to make our federal government less racist when it comes to education, spending. Giving to the institutions is always important and not just, you know, the sort of upper crust of the institutions, but... Right, not just Howard, yeah. Yeah, so giving to places like Dillard or giving to places like Tugulhu in Mississippi or or Houston Tillerson and Austin, Texas. But also kind of really continuing to sort of beat the drum, I think the more conversations that we have like this, that people know that these institutions despite the sort of legacy of underfunding and discrimination, have really done yeoman's work and educating and continue to do this,

this yeoman's work and educating black students and recognizing the importance and the vitality of those institutions. I think the more conversations like this that we can have, the better off. These institutions will be in the more, the better off the country will be in terms of, you know, steps towards a more equitable nation. Yeah. Oh, thank you so much. Adam, this is so interesting and important. Thank you for coming on the pod. Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

What's crazier than QAnon, more outlandish than Pizza Gate, and scarier than a Mexican getaway with Ted Cruz? The answer is what the American right wing has planned next. Be one of the first to listen to Fever Dreams, new podcasts from The Daily Beast, tracking the conspiracy slingers, orange acolytes, and straight-up grifters pushing to retake power. Every Wednesday hosts Swin Subisang and Will Summer Checking in on the movement of the radical right Head to the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts or your favorite podcast player

To catch the first episode and get subscribed. That's Fever Dreams, which you can subscribe to wherever you get your podcasts. Molly Jong Fast. Jesse Cannon. Right here you have a bone to picket. Maybe even a few to break. Yes.

So let's talk about Texas. Texas, I hear there's a new breed of bloated werewolf that is wandering the prairie down there. Here's the deal. There are two very shitty Republican senators from Texas, and yet, I'm telling you, Ted Cruz has John Cornyn beat every fucking time. And it is a tough competition because Cornyn is also, Cornyn is basically Ron Johnson, but even trolier. And yet, somehow Ted Cruz always hasn't beat. So today in the conservative echo chamber, one PizzaGate Jack Posobic, you'll remember Pizza Jack from PizzaGate. He was one of the propagators of PizzaGate.

He's done a lot of other really, really pathetic stunts. But that guy, Jack Posobiac, who also, remember he protested the White House and had to rape Melania sign up as he was pretending to be a leftist. So I'm going to go out on limb here and say, Pizza Jack, Jack. is not a great person to take your news, your hard news from. So he tweeted out a clip that had Clarissa Ward. Clarissa Ward is a really brave, more correspondent. She is in Afghanistan right now, risking her life to show us what it's like on the ground. Pretty scary in Afghanistan right now.

Just a bit. Yeah, just a bit. And here is Ted Cruz saying, because this clip was cut. So it was very short, and it said, basically, Chris Ward says, you know, they're chanting death to America, but they seem peaceful, right? Which was the idea that they're not attacking her. But this clip was cut in such a way by Pizza Gaye Jack, who may have a horse in this race, that Ted Cruz took the tweet and said, is there any, is there an enemy of America for whom

CNN won't cheerlead? And then in quotes, because you did go to Princeton. in brackets, in mandatory burqa's common, common no less, because Ted Cruz is a feminist icon, if there ever fucking was one. Ted Cruz, go fuck yourself. This is a man who wore a bulletproof vest and carried a machine gun when he went to tour the fucking border. He is the biggest, you know,

and remember when people were freezing to death in Texas, he went to the Ritz Carlton. And so I say to you, Ted Cruz, go. fuck yourself. Well deserved. Well, my, fuck that guy, you might say this is a Texas edition, is Texas Governor Greg Abbott. Oh, tell me more. Just as Ted Cruz is often showing up John Cornyn,

I feel like Ron Death Sentences is always showing up Greg Abbott, but really one of the worst governors ever. So Governor Abbott, of course, mandated that schools cannot have mask mandates because, you know, nothing says when he's ranting about personal liberty all day and the government having tyrannical control like telling people that they can't protect their kids against a deadly virus. That is infecting children now. Yeah.

Yeah. So he should fuck himself. Thankfully, though, an appeals court has held up San Antonio's mask mandate for public schools ruling against Texas's governor Greg Abbott. And I just have to say like all this performative moronics where they try to politicize the mask is just the most fucking disgusting thing. It's nice to see that the courts are not having it, even though they've been stacked with Trump judges and Republican judges from past moronic administrations like the Perry government.

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