The Daily Beast Podcast - The Year Elon Musk and Dave Chappelle Almost Killed Comedy

Episode Date: December 23, 2022

Welcome to a special year-end crossover episode between The Daily Beast’s The New Abnormal and The Last Laugh. On this show: Elon Musk is being greeted by crowds with a chorus of boos, and Dave Chappelle seems to have overstayed his welcome. Plus, the latest on Marjorie Taylor Greene and her onetime friend Lauren Boebert ‘s beef. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits pretty comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. We are off for the holiday, but that doesn't mean we didn't tape you an amazing show beforehand.

Today we're lucky enough to be joined by The Daily Beast, The Last Laugh, host Matt Wilstein, who's going to talk to us about the year in political comedy. And me, him and Andy, have a really fun chat. But first, let's have some fun. Are you guys ready to listen to some clips one last time this year? Yes, God. I will top your yes, God, with a hell yeah. So while we were just taping another segment, Lauren Boper decides to start a fight with Marjorie Taylor Green,

and I want you guys to hear it. Oh, what? No way. Someone who we all respect, Marjorie Taylor Green, says Kevin McCarthy is going to be a great speaker. I guess you'll have to ask Marjorie about that. I'm a fan of hers. I'm an admirer, but it's not something we see the same way. Lauren?

Well, you know, I've been aligned with Marjorie and accused of believing a lot of the things that she believes in. I don't believe in this, just like I don't believe in Russian space laser. Are you a hard no? Space lasers and all of this. No, I'm just saying we need to actually have an inside conversation and make sure that these promises are there. This is the happiest I have been in months. Yeah. The fact that there are two Republican members of Congress arguing about Jewish space laser, This is unbelievable. This is amazing.

It's the giddiness I feel right now. I'm like, did you just call her a fucking idiot without saying that she's a fucking idiot? And that you agree with some things, but like, oh, I don't agree with that because that sounds crazy because she is fucking crazy. But if Lauren Bobert thinks you're an idiot, like you are off the scale. If Lauren, even Lauren Bobert can sit there and go, yeah, she's stupid. That's just unbelievable. This would be a good death matchup.

Oh, what do they call it? A cage match. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd like to see this one. See, I see this as that thing that like every teen movie shows like the mean girls, the heathers, that like, you know, when you're the top dogs, they can never handle one being seen as higher than the other. Just trying to bring her back and peg back to her level. I love this. Also love the reference to Heather's.

Hell yeah. Hell yeah, my faith. Great movie. Yeah, I'd like to see this. You're not a Heather. Yes. Do it, Lauren Bober. Do it. Okay. So I feel like this weekend really was Carrie Lakes. It's her Hail Mary. Now that she lost this election, she's like she had her eyes on being in Mr.

Trump's life. You know, she wanted to be his vice president. And she's seeing that, you know, it's hard to do when you haven't won an election. So she's really trying to culture war her way there. So I had about seven clips to choose from, but I settled on this one on what I, well, I'll be honest. I mostly thought this would be the one that would make Danielle the baddest, so that's how I chose it. I know that the people who are some of the most brave, courageous people in all of America. Because we know how difficult the times that we're living in are right now. We know how difficult it is to be common sense patriots.

but the people in this room had to come out twice right and how many of you would say it was harder to it's harder to be a conservative and come out as a than it was to be gay

come out we're going to win so I appreciate that patriotism and that braver we need some brave people right now and that's what we need more than anything people who are willing to stand up do the right thing speak out and we have some of the bravest,

patriotic people in this room and I love each other one of you. I actually had to come out as well. Okay, now the media's like, oh my God, Carrie Legis gang, what? No, but when you work in the media and if there's fair and honest in the media, you don't put your politics front and the center, you keep it in. And so when I walked away from the media and I was unschapled from that restriction of speaking my mind and jumped into politics and could find, I don't really speak my mind.

It was the most free, liberating day ever. Greatest thing ever. So I'm going to send you my doctor bill for my blood pressure. If this is the type of shit you want to put in the clips, Jeff. I should have noted that she's speaking to the log cabin Republicans here. And they applaud. And they applaud. I applaud, which is absolutely ridiculous.

Yes, it's, yes, Carrie. You're so right. It's so hard to be a conservative these days. It's so hard to have a whole network dedicated to your propaganda and bullshit. It's so hard to have one of your in-cell idiots running Twitter, the world's town square. It's so hard to be you. God, I hate them so much. It's like at one hand, oh my God, we're so powerful and we know everything.

And on the other hand, everybody's so much. mean to us. Pick one. You punk. The thing I love about her the most is, and it's crossing over from hate to love. I do. I feel bad saying that, but I'm starting to actually develop a thing for her. Andy, Andy, what is this thing? Is this like my Kristen cinema thing? Because if you want a new co-host, Andy, if you want Carrie Lake is a new co-host. No, I just, I really do love the way she is, she ever since she lost the election that she claimed she didn't lose. She has been fighting really hard for Arizonans by basically moving into Mara Lago in Florida. And it's just unbelievable to me.

Like, like, it's just so, it's so nakedly obvious. She could not give less of a fuck about the people of Arizona. And all she wants to do is have a permanent room at Mara Lago and be close to Daddy Trump. And it's just, I am finding myself kind of loving her for it because it's just so shameless. It's like beyond any realm of shame. I just, it makes me laugh so hard. He hates his own kids.

So why would you want Trump to be your daddy? I don't know. I don't know. I think we're mistaken which type of daddy. Yeah, I was going to say, I'm not going to get into what I meant by that. No, I know. I know what kind of daddy you meant.

I know you know. I don't think it needs to be spelled out. She literally, one of those speeches said that she likes him more than her husband. Yeah, it's just like I said, It's beyond shameless. Like what she's doing is just beyond shameless. And there's something there.

That's all I'm saying. I think I could fix her. Yeah. I gave up on Kristen Cinema, so I suggest you get there to where I got just as fast as I did. I think I have a better chance with Gary Lake than you have the Christmas. Yeah. Amazing.

Okay, okay. I'm going to get us far away from this land we were just in. I'm going to take us to the cringest man on the right. And I know you're like, which one could it be? Right. But one Benny Johnson spoke at the Turning Point USA conference about his daddy, Ron DeSantis. Oh, Dr. Fauci's resigning. This is what my boy had to say about Dr. Fauci just in time for Christmas.

And I'm just sick of seeing him. I know he says he's going to retire. Someone needs to grab that little elf and chuck him. Ladies and gentlemen, my pronouns are prosecute. Fouts! Benny Johnson is just pathetic. Like, I don't even know what I'm. to say about Benny Johnson, just a sad man.

And I won't say anything more, but at some point the truth is going to come out, Benny. Yeah, it's just like the way that they debased themselves for each other. Like, the homoeroticism in this party is really fucking deep. It really, I mean, I have never seen anything like it. And I will just say this, you know, thou protest too much. Okay, I think we both covered that. I was just going to say It's really is the sentient version

of the Steve Bouchemy Hello Fellow Kids meme No he really I mean it's just it's so sad Like I don't know again I can't feel sorry for people like Benny Johnson Because they they chose this life But boy he's just such a sad person

Mm hmm Sad lonely person Yeah Okay so for our last clip of the year One Senator Josh Holly It's amazing that someone who looks so boyal is always trying to make his brand that he's a man. But he's going to have some advice for men now.

You can give yourself to and pour yourself out to young men, let me make a suggestion to you. Why don't you turn off the computer and log off the porn and go ask a real woman on a date? How about that? Just a thought. Ask her out. Young men, why don't you be the ones who do the asking? How about that? Don't wait for her.

You go ask. Show her a little respect. And then you take her out and you treat her right. How about that? Don't make her cater to your whims. Treat her right. Treat her right. Treat her like what she is.

A woman. A person of incredible significance created in the image of God. And you know what? You treat her right. And then one day you do her the honor and show her the respect of asking her to marry you. And then you go get married. And you have children. Thanks, Josh.

You know, when all my female friends tell me, me on dating conservative men. You know what they always talk about? How are they treated them right? Yeah. Really? Because the conversation just doesn't go to the energy. Well, that too.

This is wild. Like, what's the problem that's happening with them? From tanning testicles to go ask her out, to turn off your computer. Like, I'm just so confused. Like, are they really afraid that there's just not going to be enough mean white babies being born. Like is that the thing?

Is that what you all think it is? I don't know. Yeah. Also, I don't know why he's yelling at Republican voters. No either. I mean, if you do any, like if you spend five minutes looking at an in-sell thread on Reddit, they ain't voting for Democrats. It's true.

They're not, these are not progressives. I'm sorry. Sorry, Josh. These are your people. They all get radicalized because they talk to the woman. They just talk to them badly. Yes. Yeah.

This is why they want to subjugate women. I just want to, you know, pull it back together. This is why they wanted to get rid of abortion. This is why they don't want equal pay. Because, guys, it is the small dick energy. It is the idea that in order to get women to pay attention to you, right? You have to give them no other choice. Shut down every other avenue.

And then Josh Hawley seems to. Do you know what I'm saying? Like that's... Daniel, I have to defend Josh. Look at him run out of the Capitol building. You don't think that was hot. You're right. He has athletic prowess.

You're right. And now we have our annual The Daily Beast's Last Laugh and new abnormal crossover episode with the last laugh host, Matt Willsstein. Andy, what's going on? Hey, Matt, how are you? I'm doing pretty well. Yeah, it's good. I'm glad we're getting to do this. Finally, I've been wanting to be.

to talk to you on our respective podcast for a while. I've been enjoying your work this year on New Abnormal. Oh, thanks so much. Yeah, I was always, I think I even mentioned it to Jesse once. I was like, after like my third time where I was doing like these sort of comedy people on the Sunday shows, I was like, oh shit, am I stepping on Matt's toes here? Yeah, I was like, someone's on my corner, but I'm enjoying it enough that it's okay. I know. I felt kind of bad about that, but then I kept doing it. So, I guess that tells you a little something about me. So, Andy, it's kind of fortuitous that we're talking at this moment.

I think people will be hearing it a little bit later. But as we speak, it's the morning after Dave Chappelle ended his big tour by inviting none other than Elon Musk up on stage for no apparent reason other than to get booed by a huge San Francisco crowd. I saw that late last night before I went to sleep. The video hadn't come out yet. And I was like, I'm not sure if I believe this because there was no video. and everyone was like, oh, well, I guess Chappelle does that thing where the phones have to be placed in bags or whatever.

Pouches, yeah. Yeah, the pouches. So I was like, I'm not going to retweet this or talk about it because maybe by the morning it will be debunked. And then I got up and saw that not only had it not been debunked and that even more people who were in the crowd had come forward, but someone had, I guess, managed to take some video of it. And I just laughed. make some noise for the richest man in the world. Elon. Yeah, it's a remarkable video of Elon getting up on stage, getting booed, not knowing at all how to handle it,

kind of like pleading with Chappelle to do something. Chappelle pretty much leaves him hanging for a while. Very awkward. Well, that's the thing. And I was trying to figure out, like what you said, I don't know why. I mean, I guess Chappelle brought him up because he's Elon Musk, whatever. He's one of the most famous people in the world. Or Chappelle knows what would happen today as we'd all be talking about it.

Well, yes, absolutely. That's a really good point. But like you said, Chappelle kind of left him out there, just hung him out to dry. And I was like, was that his intent? I don't know. What did he think was going to happen? I don't know. Maybe he thought they were in San Francisco and maybe Chappelle was like, oh, they love Elon Musk here in San Francisco. This is going to be great. What do you know, the guy who just let most of his workforce go get booed by a crowd? And then Chappelle says something, which is just unbelievable. He says, oh, I noticed most of the people who are booing are sitting in the back. Yeah. And it's like, what is that supposed to mean? Like, they're the poor people in the audience? Like, I think so. Yeah, I think that's where he was going with that. Like, what is wrong with you? The whole thing is

just, it's amazing from start to finish and it couldn't happen to two nicer guys. Yeah, I mean, they are sort of the two figures of the year. If we're talking about political comedy, sort of the state of comedy, I think Chappelle and Elon Musk coming together at the end of the year really couldn't be more perfect. Yeah, I mean, one thing before, before we move on from that story that I just wanted to point out is the person who tweeted out the video, the original video, and I don't know how they got their phone out of the pouch, but that person's Twitter account no longer exists. So I have a feeling that Chappelle and or Elon got together and nuked that account, which is pretty messed up as well. Jesse, were you jumping in there? I was going to say it's very easy to free your phone for the pouch,

but I don't want to implicate myself an illegal thing. Oh, yeah. Right, right. To pick up with what Matt said, It's like, yeah, I mean, what better symbol of Musk's supposed belief in free speech is there than him, than the social media network he owns, yanking the account of someone who posted video of him, not in his best moment. But of course, now he's, I saw Musk tweeted that he was like, well, actually, it was 90% cheers and only 10% booze. Yeah, which also just shows how delusional he is. God, he really is. He's like the bizarro drill. And one of the most overdone things on Twitter is to put up the drill tweet that perfectly makes fun of the thing that someone's doing. And it's overdone because drill is some kind of insane genius.

But it really is amazing that every time you see something like this, like your first thought is like, oh, this is just like that drill tweet. And then he comes out and he does this and you're just like, what are you doing to yourself, man? It's like it is absolutely amazing. And you just see the mindset of someone who's been surrounded. by Yes Men for like his whole adult life, he has literally no idea how to act when people aren't cowtowing to him and saying, oh, my God, oh, you're so funny. Oh, you're so smart. Oh, what a great idea. He has literally no idea how to act. And it's amazing. And speaking of people who we've both had on our shows now, Pat and Oswald, who I really enjoyed your conversation with him,

and then I talked to him, I think a few weeks after that. And we were talking about how Elon did it all is kind of explained by the fact that Elon just wants to be a comedian. He desperately wants to be funny and seen as funny. And that's why he brought a sink to the office on the first day, which was baffling. And that's why he's tweeting about that his pronouns or prosecute Fauci, which was his latest, just outrageous, unfunny. I couldn't believe that one. And that was the morning before he showed up on stage with Chappelle. So it's crazy how much that aspect of it seems to drive him in throwing away his billions of dollars on this project. Yeah, and Patton and I talked about this,

and it was not the first time it had been brought up, but there is this, we're seeing this sort of pipeline of failed open mic comedians or just failed comedians in general to suddenly alt-right. It just sort of seems like I don't think that Elon is a, I think he would have been a failed open-mic comedian had he tried. But you're absolutely right. Like that's what he wants.

he wants so badly to be funny and he posts all these memes and they're just, just not funny, but you see the people who do think they're funny and it is, for some reason, it is all people who love Donald Trump and who think the pronoun joke is just the height of humor. And he is, to a certain extent, he's just playing to his audience now, which I guess any good comedian does. But he is so painfully unfunny. And there are people who aren't funny, but at least they know what funny is. That's the majority of people. Like the majority of people in the world aren't comedians or don't do comedy for a living.

Yeah, I like to think of myself as one of those people. Me too. I mean, you know, I could never in my life could I do stand-up, but I can recognize someone who's really good at it. And he doesn't have that. Like, he doesn't even have that ability to know what funny is. He's just locked out completely. And he wants so badly to be in the club. And it turns out that the only people who think, that he is funny are the people who like him not only aren't funny, but have no idea what funny is. So they're just peas in a pod. Yeah, there was a great thread that I saw right around when Musk was taking over Twitter that I believe it was Parker Malloy, the journalist who posted it, which was all of these tweets from Elon over the years, starting with sort of ones where he was, could tell he was mildly offended by Onion headlines about himself, and then switch to only posting Babylon B. satire, headlines, satire and quotes, that was basically just praising him. And they're just,

and it's, it's, so what he finds funny is the thing that makes him look good. Yeah. As a general rule of thumb, if you think the Babylon B is funny, you are, you're out of the comedy world. And you have given up any chance or any pretense of ever being funny yourself. And that's exactly where he is right now. But you're right. His idea, like he has no, a thing that almost every funny person shares is the ability, to be self-deprecating. And he just does not have that at all. To me, anyway, it's a real blocker from ever being funny. If you can't poke fun at yourself or you can't handle other people making jokes about you, you can't possibly be funny. That's my theory anyway. Yeah, well, I mean, that kind of brings us back to Chappelle because he's someone who I have, for a long time,

thought was very funny. I still think he's very funny most of the time, but he does have some of these blocks of not maybe seeing himself or being quite as self-aware as maybe he was when he was younger or less powerful, less on top of the world, less sort of the kind of guy who would hang out with Elon Musk. And I wanted to talk about his SNL monologue specifically because it's something that I've thought a lot about. I haven't really gotten a chance to talk about on my show much yet. And yeah, I mean, maybe I can kind of start with my perspective on and then I'd love to hear yours. But I had a very unique experience in a way of because it's my job at the daily being. to watch SNL and then comment on it, write about it in some way. And so I was looking forward to

watching Chappelle's monologue very curiously what he would do. And I really came away from it, feeling like he was echoing the same anti-Semitic statements that got Kanye in trouble and they've caused so much of a stir there. So I wrote that. It got a lot of blowback from people on Twitter elsewhere who were very unhappy to hear that. And I think I kind of felt like I was in the minority in a way, at least in the early days at the beginning, and I think more people have sort of started to come out and say that as well. Well, I've been to Hollywood.

No one's y'all to get mad at me. I'm just telling you, I've been to Hollywood. This was just what I saw. It's a lot of juice. Like a lot. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? There's a lot of black people in Ferguson, Missouri.

Doesn't mean we run the place. I could see if you had some kind of issue. You know what I mean? You might go out to Hollywood. Hollywood and your mind might start connecting some kind of lines and you could maybe adopt the delusion that the Jews run show business. It's not a crazy thing to think, but it's a crazy thing to say out loud in a climate like this. But there was a sense of, oh, it's just jokes. He's sort of dancing on the line, but not crossing it, which I can kind of see that point of

view, but watching it just live for the first time and reacting to it, it definitely rubbed me the wrong way. So I was really to hear what you thought about it. I think I know I really liked your piece. I think I retweeted it. Yeah, thank you. I only bring that up to say that I agreed with it. And I remember watching it and thinking, and I didn't watch it live. I watched it on video the next morning or something like that because I can't with Saturday in our live. But there were two things about it. One, it was funny. There were very funny parts to it. God, I agree with that too, yeah. Yeah. But that's the thing about a Chappelle as opposed to a Elon Musk or a Kanye. He's funny. And you're watching that monologue. It's really like it's two things

can be true at the same time. And you can be funny while at the same time the things you're saying are in a lot of cases, in a lot of instances in that monologue, were really off-putting to me. And to me, weren't really any different from what Kanye had said at the time. This was, we should remind people, this was before Kanye's whole Hitler is my best friend. thing. So this is just when Kanye had been talking about the Jews running Hollywood and stuff like that. Yeah, and DeathCon 3 and all that. Right. And so Chappelle's big thing was that, like, he was basically saying, he was basically agreeing with Kanye, but saying, you shouldn't have said that. And then he was being kind of funny about why you shouldn't say that. But at the

time, he wasn't taking issue with the ideas that Kanye had put forth. Exactly. Yeah. Like you were watching someone who is legitimate. As you said, Dave Chappelle is a comedic genius. And there's one thing I hate, it's the people who, once they decide they don't like someone, well, he was never funny or, oh, he was, his movies were never good. That's garbage if it's about Woody Allen. That's garbage if it's about Dave Chappelle. It's just garbage.

And Chappelle hasn't stopped being funny. It's just that it feels like the groups he's training a lot of his humor on, trans people in particular. that's just not funny in 2022 and given the state of the world. It's not funny to me anyway. It doesn't mean that Dave Chappelle was never funny. And obviously, you're not saying that. I know. But I see that from people now. And it's like, you've got to be kidding me. Like this is one of the Dave Chappelle's in the pantheon of comedy. But what he did, and I don't know if you read Hannah Eindler, who one of the stars of the show Hacks, she wrote a great thing, a response to the Chappelle monologue. Yeah, that was really one of my things that came out around all of that. Me too. Absolutely. It was so affirming in a lot of ways. Yeah, absolutely. And basically, she said exactly what you and I are saying now, but it was really well written. And that, and she ended it by saying these men who pick on marginalized groups are establishment bullies reinforcing the status quo, not at all the job of a comedian. Like, people always say, well, the job of a comedian is to be funny. And yes, above all, yes.

But comedy does not historically side with the empire. However you want to phrase that. Like, generally, I know they're so overused, but the expression is punching up and punching down. Yeah, it's relevant. I mean, they're a cliche kind of for a reason. Right. I mean, punching down, like making fun of mentally handicapped people. Like, just as an example, that's something that 15, 20 years ago, everyone probably thought was funny.

And now everyone is sort of like, we've sort of grown and we know that that's not funny. And we shouldn't have been laughing at it back then, but even if we did, we know better than to laugh at it now. And it's just because we've grown and learned as people. And it's not censorship and it's not whatever word you want to use, political correctness. It's just like, no, that's actually really icky. Society we like to think progresses and moves forward. But then you have people like Chappelle and you have people like Bill Maher and people like that who their big thing is, well, I haven't. I'm exactly what I used to be, and you guys have just gone, you've gone too far, you're too woke, you're too whatever. And I think I said this on one of our podcasts, the word progress is in the word progressive. So yes, the idea is, yes, you don't freeze in place with what you believe, and you learn, and you progress, you know. Yeah, Bill Maher bragging that he hasn't changed is not

as good of an argument as he thinks it is. Right. And that's not an argument for saying that I'm still a liberal or I'm still progressive. Well, it's like, no, you're not. Like, by definition, you're not. I have sort of wandered off of the Chappelle thing, but there was straight up anti-Semitism in the Chappelle thing, and he couched it better than Kanye did, and he was able to be funny about it, but it doesn't change the fact that it was there. And look, Saturday Night Live has had a not so great run lately of having people on their show that... Like Elon Musk. Like Elon Musk, like Donald Trump. And it's like on the one hand, they invite these guys on to host the show. And then two weeks later, they'll be making jokes about them as if they weren't complicit. They've definitely gone hard

on Elon since he was on. Yeah. Chappelle, not so much. No. It starts to get annoying after a while. It's like, well, you did that. You tried to normalize these guys. And it's super annoying. But it's silly to me to say he's not funny. But it's also silly to me to look at that monologue and say, like, They were just jokes. They were funny jokes. It's like, because they weren't. I mean, yes, in some sense, the jokes were funny, but they weren't just that. As someone who hosts a comedy podcast, who interviews comedians every week, I hate being a comedy

scold or being seen that. So it's hard, I think, to come out against this stuff. And I think it would be very easy to do what a lot of other people who write about SNL did, which was just sort of say, Chappelle comments on Kanye kind of and be vague about it. But I felt like I wanted to take a little bit of a stand on it. And especially also as a Jewel. person. And I didn't hear people saying that. I think it's interesting that of comedians, that

Hannah Einders kind of stood alone as a comedian speaking out against it. We haven't heard from, Jerry Seinfeld was asked about it. He didn't, wasn't really willing to condemn it in any way. I haven't heard Amy Schumer say anything. John Stewart pretty much defended Chappelle when he was on Colbert talking about it. It was kind of in that conversation up to Colbert to be the one to push back and say, I don't know about this. He seemed to be more on the side of that there was some anti-Semitism going on. So that was a really interesting conversation. I thought. People have the right to have a negative reaction

of what people say on stage. I've gotten it a million times. You've gotten it a million times. Sure, absolutely. So what do you imagine a response is to something if people perceive anti-Semitism in someone's into what Kyrie Irving posts or what Kanye says or what Dave said on Saturday night?

What do you think a good response would be? First of all, I think just reflexively naming things anti-Semitism is as reductive as some of the things that they might be saying. It immediately shuts down a conversation. I would say that people said that they perceive, a promulgation of, even with a comedic intention, a promulgation of anti-Semitic tropes.

That doesn't mean the person is an anti-Semitic. Comedy is reductive. And I think part of what it is is we play with tropes because everyone has prejudice in their lives and in the way that they view things. And comics rely on those prejudices as a shorthand for our material. Even the woken of comics plays with tropes.

to a certain extent. Do you think in a sense that it's, I don't know if this is counterintuitive or what, but in a sense, it's easier for non-Jewish comedians to speak up on it? Yeah, maybe. Because you run the risk,

I want to be sort of careful how I say this, but you sort of run the risk of, oh, you know what? Let me pull it up because Hannah Hindbinder actually mentioned this. Playing a victim or kind of being...

She said, so when Jews say, hey, there was anti-Semitism in there, folks go, you're too sensitive, learn to take a joke. And I think there was some risk for, there is that risk. And like you said, as someone who is like you, who is Jewish and loves comedy and was vaguely in that world for a little bit, I don't ever want to be the person saying, well, you can't say that about my people. And I mean, look, I was disappointed by John Stewart in the instance that you're talking about. I watched that interview. And you're right,

it was Colbert, who really took a strong stand about it. It brings me back to that thought that it's like, you don't want to be seen as the comedy police and you don't want to be seen as the person saying the scold. And particularly when it's about your own people, there's part of you that thinks, ah, maybe I just need to lighten up and have a sense of humor about myself. Because if Chappelle had said similar things about another group, I don't think John Stewart, I think his reaction would have been different. Yeah. And I mean, and I felt that even in myself, like I was watching this Chappelle thing and I was kind of put off by what I saw as anti-Semitism. And then he's talking about Herschel Walker, and I thought those jokes were pretty funny. And so I also had to look at myself

a little bit and say, why do I think that's so much funnier? I think there's an objective element to that, but there's also, there might be a subjective part of that, too. The most ominous sign in midterms, I believe, would be Herschel Walker, who I, I don't want to speak badly of because he's black. But I have to admit, he's, um, he's observably stupid. Even when he's not talking, his mouth, be open a little bit like he's a kind of guy that looks like he thinks before he makes a move on tic-tac-toe. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. And I'm not patting myself on the back for this because it was an easy call. But when Kanye first made his remarks, my immediate thought was, now there are going to be groups, including Jewish groups, that call for call him out on this.

And then people are going to say, see, this just proves he was right. Right. They can always go back to that. And it happens almost every time. And I don't know. It's weird when the tropes about you are that you're too powerful because then it almost insulates them. Like I said, it makes it easy for them because then if there's any pushback, you just say, see, you're proving my point. Yeah. And at the same time, I think if John Stewart was hosting SNL and said what Dave Chappelle said about black people, that wouldn't have gone over well either. No, exactly. And as well it shouldn't have. Right. Yeah, exactly. Look, because there is that bit of truth that a lot of Jewish people work in Hollywood, which is different

from running Hollywood. So you take that sliver of truth and you just amplify it. And then if you say, well, wait a minute, what are you doing? And then people are like, oh, are you saying there aren't a lot of Jews in Hollywood? I'm like, no, that's not what I'm saying, but that's not what he was saying. Yeah, that's not why he was saying it. Right. Exactly. It's been fascinating to watch the different reactions to it. And I've really talking about your interviews with comedians for a sec, I've been enjoying them, I think, especially because you really go at this stuff very directly in a way that sometimes I feel like I can't or where you really ask comedians, what specifically about cancel culture, what does it mean to you? What do you think of when you hear that phrase? And so what is that, what do you feel like you've

taken away from those conversations with the comedians? Like, now that you've asked that same question to a bunch of different people, what do you feel like you've learned from that? They all had a very similar reaction, I thought, which I will say was not unexpected. And the people I had on, the Pat and Oswaltz, the Paul F. Tompkins, Andy Richter. Yeah, they were very progressive Yeah, so I can't say that I was surprised by their answers, but I thought they were all really interesting because they all, they sort of focused on different aspects of it, but what it all came down to was it was basically, shut the hell up. It's just, I think it might have been Andy Kindler and I got in a discussion and it was basically like they tried to frame it as you're not letting people be funny, as if the only way to be funny is to make your tired old, just sort of hacky jokes about different. races and about the genders and whatever. And that really bugs me. Like they make it seem like, well, you have two choices. One is either you can go see one of these comedians who will tell it like it is,

or you can go see someone who's not funny. And it's like, no, that's not, first of all, that's not how it works. They all just sort of like, if you could hear someone roll their eyes, like that's the response that I imagine everyone as they were answering rolling their eyes, not at the question, but just at the concept of cancel culture as it applies to comedy. I think that's why I've been hesitant to ask my guess that exact question because I feel like they're so sick of it. They're so sick of hearing about cancel culture and most of them are, except for the ones who like to complain about it. And those are the people I generally don't have on. Look, I'll be honest when I first wrote the question and I guess it was for Kindler because

I think, oh no, it was for Tompkins because he was my first guest of ilk. I was a little worried about it too because I'm sick of talking about cancel culture. And I hate the phrase. and I just, it makes me roll my eyes. But I thought here's a chance to get people who are actually in the business. And someone like Paul Tompkins, who was the first person I talked to, is someone who he's up for a lot of jobs. And he works in a lot of different realms in Hollywood. So there's voice acting.

He does, he just does so many different things. I figured out maybe he'll have a good take on it, which he did, of course, because he's a super smart guy. But then it just struck me. I was like, you know what? I think this is actually a good question for, I'm going to keep using this question. And part of it is because New Abnormal is a political podcast.

So it was a way to get into politics and culture with these guys. So I just thought, you know what? I just want to point it. It's not at all because I'm lazy and just wanted to reuse the same question every time. And I know our producer, Jesse, has accused me of that on various times. And I just want to state for the record that to all the people out there who Jesse has been saying that to, it is not true. It is jealousy on Jesse's part that he's. even saying that about me.

He wishes he could think of questions like that, yeah. Yes, and he's just jealous of me and my lifestyle in general, my constant partying and my famous friends and whatever. I am jealous of that part. We could talk about this more offline. It just struck me as an interesting question for across the board, since it is as much as I'm tired of it, and those guys, when I could tell from their reaction, they're like,

oh my God, not at me, but they were just like, these people need to shut the fuck up. Like enough with blaming cancel culture for everything. They were all very upfront about that. And it was interesting to me. Yeah, I wonder heading into this next year, if that is an issue that's going to grow or recede. I feel like everyone on all sides kind of wants it to recede in some ways.

But then at the same time, you don't want people to just run wild and get away with everything. So I don't know. It's a tough question that I'm sure we'll continue to grapple with. I don't think it is going away. I'm old enough to remember when politically incorrect, was the term. And cancel culture has kind of superseded that, even though it vaguely means the same thing. So I feel like this is not going to go away, because now the big word is, which is another word that has been so bastardized that I'm so sick of it, and I think it should be banned from the English

language, unfortunately, is woke. I think it's already replacing it. I think instead of hearing about cancel culture, we just hear about the woke mob. The woke mob, the woke mind virus, as Herr Musk likes to say all the time. I don't think it's going to go away. I think it's just going to mutate a little bit. And I think itself is a mutation of the original sort of politically incorrect arguments that went on as far back as the 80s and probably further back than that, but I'm not quite that old. So I don't know. I hope that where we can arrive on this stuff, and I think that this is something that everyone should be able to agree on, is that comedians really should be able to say whatever they want to say, and we should be able to criticize it.

Yeah, and nobody's arguing. That's the thing, is that all the guests I had, the Paton Oswald, all those guys, nobody was saying these guys shouldn't be allowed to work. Literally nobody is saying that. They're just saying, like, yeah, you are going to make the jokes you're going to make, and people are going to react the way they're going to react. And if you don't understand that jokes that people laughed at in the 90s or even five, six years ago are jokes that people are no longer laughing at or that a lot of people. I'm not going to say everyone, but they're jokes that a lot of people suddenly aren't laughing at,

that's on you as a comedian. That's on you as a comedian to either grow with the times or keep doing your stuff. That's the reaction you're going to get now. This is not the heyday of Andrew Dice Clay. Oh, we miss the heyday of Andrew Dice Clay, don't we? We do. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of The New Abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday.

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