The Daily Beast Podcast - This Is Exactly What Humiliated Trump Will Do Next

Episode Date: September 30, 2026

Michael Wolff and Joanna Coles dig into what Donald Trump’s political future looks like as the midterms approach, from Republicans increasingly distancing themselves from Trump to his apparent determination to double down rather than retreat. They examine Trump’s taxpayer-funded campaign ad, the Texas Senate race, and the growing fight over AI data centers before turning to the darker story of Jeffrey Epstein—and Wolff’s firsthand account of Epstein’s fear of Trump becoming president, the collapse of their friendship, and the extraordinary events surrounding Epstein’s arrest and death. As Wolff revisits what Epstein told him about Trump and why he believed his old friend was capable of anything, the conversation opens up a much darker side of Trump’s history that is impossible to ignore. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The midterms are going to be very bad for the Republicans. One of the things that will happen after this election, he will become more Trumpy. More, fuck you, more tariffs, more deportation, more war. He will have been rebuked by the midterms. He would have been, one would have even assume humbled, at least. Well, we would ever assume he'd be humbled. Any other president or politician would be.

He will not be, of course. And one of the ways he will show that he is not is to double down. Never retreat, never adjust, never recalibrate. Michael. Joanna. We don't have our cheat sheets. I guess the printer isn't working. The printer isn't working.

Why is it that we can send Starship to circumvate Why is it that AI can destroy the world and we can't get printers to work? Yeah, or Starship can circumnavigate the globe twice yesterday before lunch and we can't get a printer. Why are printers particularly difficult? I'm assuming that's a rhetorical question. No, it's actually a real question. My printer at home doesn't work. No.

But it's rhetorical in that there is no answer. Yes, okay, fair. All right. We have so much to remind you about. First of all, Michael and I will be live, all singing, all dancing, tap dancing across the stage at the Tarragam Ballroom on October the 20th. It is going to be good. I think it will be good. I think it will be good.

We're good live. We're okay like this, but we're really good live. If you would like tickets, it's beast. pub slash ITH live. B-stoppub slash ITH live. I've done this before. It just takes you to ticket masters. Okay, well, I'm going to ticket master. So it's just ticket masters and search on inside Trump's head.

And tickets are actually surprised, well, not surprisingly, excitingly going rather fast. So please hop on with it. If you're in L.A., if you want to go to L.A., if you've never been to L.A. and you feel like a trip and you need a reason. Come and see us live. And there's something else. And that will just be, I'd like two weeks, 15 days out from the midterms. Right.

So edge of your seats. Yeah, edge of your seats. And don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast podcast. The very reason we can have these conversations in particular going inside Donald Trump's head is because we are independent media. There's nobody corporately telling us what we can and can't say. We appreciate your support. And if you are an independent thinker, it's a way of expressing your support for. Joanna often tells me what I can and cannot say.

I do not do that. Can you imagine trying to tell? But live. Who has ever told you what you can and can't say? One sort of life. I have occasionally short- I didn't say I listen to you, but she attempts all the time. I don't attempt all the time.

It's just sometimes I shorten you by doing a little bit of editing afterwards in the transcript. it. Anyway, we've got a lot to talk to. We've got a lot to talk about. We only have each other to talk to. Yeah, I know, sad but true. Well, and the audience out there. Our listeners, our commenters, I love going on the comments live when the episode of the podcast drops, not something you ever do. I go on. It's so exciting to see the community. And what's really interesting is when someone comes in from outside and starts being belligerent or obstreperous, the communities circle them and tell them to get out. It's very interesting.

It's a real community of beasties. I absolutely love it. So thank you for those who join when we drop live. You know who you are. I know who you are too. We're going to be talking about the fact that Trump appears to have lost everybody, except his MAGA base, that he appears in less than 1% of GOP ads for the midterms. I want to know what you think is going on in his head about it.

Does he care if they all lose? He's been busy hugging Mamdani. What's that about? James Tala Rico's campaign against Ken Paxton, of course, Trump's personal Republican in in Texas. And then we're going to talk about someone who's fallen off the front burner, but we're dragging him back from the back burner, your friend Jeffrey Epstein. because 10 years ago, Jeffrey Epstein was very carefully and somewhat anxiously monitoring the 2016 presidential election. Because as we all know now, he was a great friend of Donald Trump's, and he was extremely nervous that Trump, who he considered as completely idiotic, was going to be elected president. And threatening, too.

And threatening. And threatening. So we're going to talk about that in some depth. But first, let's go to a clip. which lays things out for us about what things are looking like for the GOP right now. You know, less than 1% of GOP ads mentioned Trump in the early part of September compared to 20% of all Democratic ads that mentioned Trump's name. Can we also do the clip of the ad that Trump is running for himself?

Yes, well, we can absolutely do that. Let's do that now. This is the final battle. With you at my side, we will demolish the deep state. We will expel the war mongers from our... government. We will drive out the globalists. We will cast out the communists, Marxist, and fascists. We will throw off the sick political class that hates our country. We will route the fake news media, and we will liberate America from these villains once and for all. Okay, this is virtually the same ad that his campaign ran for him in 2024.

and that was then paid by his campaign. This ad is now running and is paid for by the American taxpayers. By you and me and everybody, well, those in America are listening and watching us. So this is obviously abusive of the system. It may be downright illegal and you know what? He doesn't care. It's also a terrible ad. Why is he saying we're going to drive out the warmongers?

he started a war seven months in, we can't get out of it. Well, I don't think, whether it is a terrible ad or not, and since he got elected the last time around, that maybe, well, it was a better ad then than it is now. But the point is he doesn't care. The point is actually going beyond that. The point is, fuck you. I'm going to do what I want. And nobody is going to stop me.

and there are no rules here. And I think that this is a very relevant, very relevant to keep in mind as we think about the midterms, as we think about what's going to happen in the midterms, and more importantly, as we think about the day after the midterms. Well, what does that mean? You're sounding as ominous as he does in that ad. Also, what were those drums in the background? I take your point that the important thing is,

were paying for it and that's illegal. They were drumming in the background. That was, that's a cheap trick to increase the tension and the ominousness of this. That ominous has always worked well for Trump. I mean, I remember very clearly sitting there in during the first Republican Trump convention in 2016 and it was like you had never seen anything like this. The country was not recognizable. The message was not recognizable.

It was apocalyptic. Never have I sat through something like that. And because of that is the thing. The end of the world is coming. In Toronto, every arrival is a statement. And nothing says it better than this. Cadillac Optic was the number one selling luxury EV in Canada for 2025. Find your rhythm across a seamless 33-inch display and an immersive 19 speaker AKG surround

audio system. This city demands agility and optic delivers with precision to make every drive extraordinary. Let's take the Cadillac. Find out more at Cadillac Canada.ca. Luxury sales claim based on S&P Global Mobility, Canadian New Vehicle Total Registrations for calendar year 2025 for the Cadillac definition of luxury. Well, that slightly reminded me of the chaos around January of the 6th, actually. I mean, maybe that's what it's supposed to do for his MAGA base. But for the people that are, you know, independent, moderate people, the people that voted for him because they thought he was going to make life more affordable. Well, let's go back. I mean, I think that there are a couple of things there. And we also also also go back to that first statement in the first clip that only 1% of the Republican ads are mentioning Trump. Therefore, he has to put an ad out there to mention himself. Right, because he wants to be center of attention. He's putting himself on the ballot.

Exactly. So that's the Trump amusement factor in this, me, me, me, me, me. But then, But then the other thing is to look at how he's actually positioning himself. So what's going to happen here is there's going to be, the midterms are going to be very bad for the Republicans. And we can talk about how very bad they might be. But the Republicans are going to lose. They're going to lose what? The House. Do you think they're going to lose the Senate?

Let's get to that because they may lose the Senate. That's the sort of the big political. They will certainly lose the House. They may lose the Senate. They get closer and closer every day to maybe losing the Senate. But it will be whatever happens there, it's not going to be pretty. And there's not going to be a real way to spin anything else. But we've done terribly in this election.

Except that, I mean, understand the one thing that Trump cannot be. It cannot be because he would literally dissolve. It would be the existential event of his life. He cannot be a loser. Now, traditionally, when presidents lose midterm races, which they almost often do, almost invariably do, then they say, okay, yeah, that went, that went badly for us. And we have to, we hear you. Right, they always say, we hear you.

We hear you. And then they do something. They fire people. They reshuffle the cabinet. They modify positions. They try. And they actually, and most people, they've been doing that for several months because they've seen the writing on the wall.

And then afterwards, they try to respond. Bill Clinton, remember, basically became a Republican. What was that really toadie consultant? that he brought in, who as Trump has brought in several times too. Was it Dick, someone? Dick Morris. Dick Morris. Thank you.

Remember, he was the toe guy. Yep. He got his toes sucked on. Anyway. But not by Bill Clinton. Not by Bill Clinton. But I think maybe there was even video of him getting his toes. Anyway, that was the thing.

Okay, we have to, the voters have spoken. We've got to speak. We've got to do this. Trump will not do this. So, and he. Well, as we saw in 2020, right, when he denied having lost the election to Joe Biden. Oh, yeah, well, of course. So I was going to ask you about that.

Do you think if he'd lost to someone else who was more robust than Joe Biden, he would have been okay with it? Like if he'd lost to Obama, would he have been okay with it? Would he still have claimed? No, no, he cannot lose. He just cannot lose at all to anybody. lose. And that's actually one of the reasons he won't be able to say, okay, I hear you. And we're going to adjust and we're going to do this. And you're going to like me better, kind or gentler or whatever. Why he won't? Because that would be an acknowledgement of losing. I mean, that would be actually listening to someone else. That would be, I have to bend here in some way. He won't do that. So one of the things that will happen after this election. is that he will become more Trumpy. More, more, fuck you, more I can do anything I want.

I will do anything I want. More tariffs, more deportation, more war. Because these are the things that will have the effect as they have so far of just crowding everything else out. Yes, people don't like him and yes, they vote against him. but he is still the center of attention. Winning is really not just winning on technically, I got more votes. Winning is dominance.

Dominance comes from attention. So he will prevail and continue to prevail because he does what he does. He just commands every, sucks the breath out of, out of not only the room, but out of everybody else. So, but what happens to the people around him? Because at this point, he, as we've discussed here before, officially enters his lame duck period.

So he's now got his cabinet all beginning to circulate. I mean, Christy Noem is now apparently thinking of throwing her hat into the presidential race. So, obviously for the Republicans. So do they start stepping back from him? What does Todd Blanche do here? Is Todd Blanche afraid that he's going to be sanctioned or that he might be disbarred? I think Todd Blanche has put that off the side because it's more interesting to look at the in more sort of oranges to oranges to look at the people who are going to run for president. Todd Blanche is not going to run for president.

Well, why do you say that? He might well run the president. I think he's a Democrat for one thing. I know, but Trump used to be a Democrat. They all used to be Democrats. No, it's safe. He's not going to run for, I mean, the one thing Todd Blanche is not is a politician. And I don't think it's ever crossed his mind than he is. But all of these other, the people in the cabinet, the political, these, Heg-Sith, Kennedy, and anybody else there and got Marco Rubio. Yes. But what in what Trump is going to do, they're going to lose the midterms. and he is going then blame.

Blame is element of the Trump. And he's going to blame the Republican Party. Right. He is going to throw dirt on virtually anybody who is a Republican. And what he's going to say about all of these people who might want to replace him is that you're nothing without me. This is, the midterms are evidence of that. And you didn't have me in your ads. And that's why.

That's why you lost. This is actually a big... So he will be... And remember, it's the question then are who of... Where's the conflict? Who are his enemies? Right. I mean, you're going to have a whole cast of Democrats.

There'll be great enemies for him. And he will pick them apart one by one by one. But he will also do this to the Republicans. And remember, he's going to be the puppeteers pulling the strings of this. So that he'll... He will maintain the attention. by giving a few of them the moment in the sun and then pulling the rug out from under them.

Right, then putting a cloud over them. I'm interested you think that Todd Blanche might not do this because as Attorney General, he would actually know where the levers are to pull in terms of making himself more electable, wouldn't he? No. Attorney Generals don't customarily run for president. But he doesn't seem like a normal Attorney General. For one, he's bending the law to fit his boss.

I just want to shoe this conversation away because this is a misunderstanding. He is not going to run for office. He doesn't remotely have a base to run for office for. He is a lawyer. And he is not a lawyer who has ever, ever shown anything, any interest or abilities to do anything outside of being a lawyer. He is, you know, and he's a, he's an uninteresting guy. He's not a, he's a lawyer. I mean, when I say he's a lawyer, understand, you know, what lawyers are people who deeply, profoundly understand their limitations. Okay. All right. So let's just look at this illegality of this ad. John Fune, the Senate leader has come out. said this is illegal. Tom Tillis, the outgoing senator from North Carolina, has said this is

illegal. John Kennedy, the Louisiana senator has said this is illegal. So is that of any significance whatsoever that Republicans are, as we're always saying, too little, too late speaking out against? I think it's, yeah, I think it's too little, too late. I don't think, I mean, Trump doesn't care. Trump has gotten essential immunity from the Supreme court on this kind of thing, on this kind of thing, on mostly everything. And this will go on. And this is what I, so this is a perfect example of what we are going to see after this election, just him continuing to push the envelope.

He will have been rebuked, censured, essentially by this, by by the midterms. he would have been, one would have even assume humbled, at least. Well, we wouldn't ever assume he'd be humbled. Any other president or politician would be. He will not be, of course. And one of the ways he will show that he is not is to double down. Okay. I mean, he is always, just double down, double down.

Double down, double blame. Never retreat, never adjust, never recalibrate. Okay. is like a king in that regards. Never complain, never explain. All right. So James Tala Rico calling Ken Paxton inviting him to a TV debate on Fox News. It's not illegal and it is quite effective. Let's let's hear it. This person is not available. If you would like to leave an additional message, please reply after the tone. Hey Ken, it's James. I'm calling to invite you to a debate on Fox News. Texans start voting in less than a month, and they deserve to hear from both of us before they do.

I've accepted four local TV debates, but we haven't heard from you, and we're running out of time. So if Fox News is where you'll be most comfortable, I'll be there because I think it's that important. You know, I mean, and it's extraordinary. I mean, the likelihood, and let's couch that slightly, but the stronger likelihood than ever before is that a Democrat is going to win the Senate in Texas. This is extraordinary. I mean, and let's remember, he is going to win this. If he wins in Texas, if Tala Rico becomes the Democratic senator from Texas, that will be all due to one man, Donald Trump. Yep.

And because Donald Trump is Ken Paxton, certainly as flawed a candidate as you might design. Well, his own staff have reported terrible conditions working for him that he was corrupt. Both sides, the Democrats and the Republicans in Texas impeached him when he was in attorney general. So his wife has called him. Remember his wife? Are they getting divorced on biblical grounds? Also, here's a guy everybody hates. Yeah, okay, fair.

And he's got 15 homes. I mean, everybody, everybody, yes, anyone who has ever known Ken Paxdon hates him. Right. Except apparently Donald Trump. And so, and he would not have become the nominee except for Donald Trump. So there was, and Donald Trump got annoyed with the, with the sitting senator. John Cornyn. Who would have easily want, I mean, remember, Texas is a blood-red state.

Another interesting thing I had this weekend, I was talking to the friend of Senator Bill Cassidy from Louisiana, a doctor who was the holdout vote for confirmation of your friend, RFK Jr. Notice how everyone becomes more. Everybody becomes your friend, apart from John Thune. claiming John Thune. But Robert Kennedy Jr., 73, still junior. The tech guys are your friends. Tech guys are my friends. Some of the tech guys are my friends. Some of them are monsters.

But we're not having that debate today. But we are having the debate about Bill Cassidy because apparently Bill Cassidy is... I think we should come back to that debate because this is shaping up to be one of the big issues of this election, including in Texas, data centers. But let's do Bill Cassidy first. Okay, well, let's just do Bill Cassidy first, because Bill Cassidy is a man who called for Donald Trump to be impeached. He then Donald Trump won again, so he's one of those Republicans that's like, but instead of holding onto his opinions about Donald Trump, ended up voting for RFK Jr. As Health and Human Services Minister, his was the deciding vote, something he should have known better about, because he's. He's a doctor.

Trump then had him primary, so he lost his Senate seat in Louisiana and will be out in January. And now he's apparently crushed by it. He's being brought low by it. He's devastated by it. Okay, but let's go back a little. You did not have to be a doctor to know that RFK was a totally unfit person to take this job, possibly the most unfit person in the United States to take. But doesn't it make it worse that Bill Cassidy is a doctor and does believe in vaccines and still voted for him? Yes, it makes it certainly clear. Bill Cassidy voted to confirm RFK after a long period of agonizing about it.

So obviously he understood the issues. And he voted to do this to suck up to Donald Trump. Right. To try and. He thought this would save him. Right. to mitigate the vote for impeachment. And instead, it's rendered him last year's news.

Yeah, no, and I wonder, you know, the interesting thing is this is politics, so you negotiate. So I would like to know the background of this. Obviously, Bill Cassidy, the holdout vote, is in the middle of doing, I mean, he's agonizing. they're not going to get this nomination through unless he votes. So traditionally, in politics, then you call up the White House and say, what can you give me? Right. I need a guarantee you're not going to primary me.

Exactly. That's what he should have asked for. Well, I'm sure that he did. And the fact that Trump primaried him anyway is, well, is perfectly Donald Trump. And I'm sure that's another reason he feels. he feels... Well, he feels completely outmaneuvered by Donald Trump, right? If he did call the White House and ask for guarantees that he wouldn't be primary, he was

completely misled, but also very naive to think that Trump would stick to his word. He's been completely outmaneuvered. And so what did you hear? The person you know who knows him... He's now surrounded by people who are saying you've got to run for president. You should run for president. No. I'm surrounded by people to say, I should run for president.

Often actually they say Joanna should run. Don't you think Joanna should run for president? Nobody's saying Joanna should run for president. They're probably saying I should run as your vice president. And these are people you run into on the bus on the way into the city because you don't drive. And this is, and your point that makes me politically ineligible? No, not at all. Probably does.

I would be a very good president. You'd be sitting rocking back and forth from behind the resolute desk, unable to probably make a decision. because you would see the complications of all the consequences of your choices. That might be good. Well, it might be good. That might be good. I mean, sometimes no government is better or ineffective government is better than effective government witnessed Donald Trump.

So you think of me as indecisive? No, I think of you as you would be weighing up all the options and find it complicated. You really only be interested in the story. What you'd be doing is sitting at the day. desk frantically writing your memoir. That's what you would be doing. And then you'd be writing, you know, press the Diet Coke button today. I think often most presidents are actually frantically writing their memoir.

But I can tell you the one president who is not frantically writing his memoir. Right. Because he's scared of any kind of. Well, because he's illiterate. I'm very interested to me any of these people who are saying you should run for president. But if you do, I'll run as your vice president. In fact, those of you coming to see. us in Los Angeles, you can tell us whether or not you think we'd be good on the campaign trail.

We would have fun on the campaign trail. We could get a huge bus. That would be fun. Yeah, I will point out that you are not eligible. I'm eligible to run as VEP, aren't I? No. No, because if something were to happen to you. Yes.

Oh, well, that's sad. At any rate, let's get... I just got quite enthusiastic for a moment. Well, let's go back. Let's go back to the midterms. because one does feel that perhaps we're a little too excited about this. Well, and I keep saying this could be 2016 all over again when everybody assumed, including Hillary, that she was going to win and including Donald Trump.

One of the most incredible things about all of this is he was so astonished to win. This is still, that's a different thing. You really have to compare this to midterm elections. Okay, okay. Rather than the general election. Democrats can be over enthusiastic thinking that the only thing they have to worry about is Donald Trump. Just to bring this up to date is what has happened here is that a series of Senate seats, which one, which virtually everyone assumed were kind of locked in. Texas does not vote for Democrats.

Iowa does not vote for Democrats. North Carolina was thought to be pretty safe. South Carolina even was thought to be extremely safe, and even that is now getting to be a little rocky. These states have now moved much closer to being toss-up states. We don't know what's going to happen. But the fact that we don't know what's going to happen is in itself a shock. Fair. Okay, so I was at an Emily's list lunch last week. They had five very impressive female candidates. They had three women running for Congress on a panel. Where did this lunch take place? I like to know the scene. Okay. It was on Park Avenue at a very nice church, which is used for. It's deconsecrated and it's used for events.

Yeah, it's like 66th. 6th Street or something. Yeah, 65th? Very nice. Third, fourth, yes. Okay, and they had Kate Conley, who's running for New York 17 as the Democrat, very impressive, went to West Point, humble background. And that's a toss-up race there. Yeah, Mike Lawler is the current congressman, voted with Trump 100% of the time, thought to be a good local congressman, good for his district. but it's now, I think, the most expensive Congress race in the country. So, well, tens of millions pouring into that district and particularly for him.

So the Republicans have been very effective raising money for him. And just remember, because, I mean, Ken Paxton has his own problems and sets himself up for his own defeat. But most of these Republicans, if they are, are defeated, they will be defeated. And if they are having a hard time, they are having a hard time because of their identification with Donald Trump. With Donald Trump, totally with Donald Trump. Leela Gray, who's the candidate for Florida 13, up against Anna Paulina Luna. And then a wonderful woman called Christina Nickabocker, who's up in Ohio 10. That's her district. And she's an oncology nurse and a former. They were all veterans, actually. And Leela Gray is a brigadier general.

However, they were excellent speakers. I could see them all being very effective fundraisers. However, the one thing they were all running on was being anti-Donald Trump. And I didn't feel they actually brought enough to the table explaining what the Democrats would do instead. And I mean, it absolutely looks as if the Democrats are going to win the House. But it does feel like their uniting message is, I am not Donald Trump. We are not the party of Donald Trump. I didn't know what they were going to do about the economy.

I didn't know how they were going to end the war. I didn't know what they were going to do about ISIS. Deal with it responsibly. I mean, in their defense, there really is no other issue but Donald Trump. I mean, yes, you can. But I don't think that's true. I think lots of people are like, you know what, Donald Trump's a nightmare. I don't like him.

He's a bully. But I want the border close. I like what he did at the border. I just need gas prices to go down. All of those issues come back to Donald Trump. I know, but you have to be able to fix them. Why are guests prices high Donald Trump? Yes.

Well, you're certainly right, but I think the human mind can only accommodate so many things. And everybody's mind has been taken over by Donald Trump. So I think any other issue ultimately, and those are important issues, and God knows the Democrats are going to have their own difficulties dealing with these issues. But does anybody hear anything beyond Donald Trump? I don't know. Yeah, you might be right.

Anyway, they were all very impressive candidates. Keisha Lance Bottoms spoke. When Westcham first took flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion. Inline skates were everywhere. And two out of three women rocked, the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s,

One thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to WestJetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at Westjet.com slash 30 years. Peggy Flanagan, who's running for Senate in Minnesota, they were all exceptionally good speakers. But I did just think, you know, it'd be good to have one thing that you're united on in terms of how you revamp the economy. You can't just run on being we're more responsible than Donald Trump. Well, wait a minute. You know, the economy actually is not in bad shape. The economy is in pretty good shape. What's be deadly... The economy is in good shape for certain people, for anybody

who's got money in the market, right? But 50% of people don't have money in the market. No, no, no, anybody who has, you know, jobs or unemployment is is, is, is, is down. I mean, the economy is is in pretty good shape. What's not in good shape are prices, partly because of because of tariffs, partly because of the war in Iran. Right. So in other words, the economy takes a big step forward if you just get rid of Donald Trump. Right. I would just say that interest rates are so high.

Interest rates are high because the deficit is running high because inflation. I mean, the Fed keeps interest rates high because they're fighting inflation. Right. I get that. Inflation is directly related to tariffs to the war. to Trump policies. Right. But I think that people think of the economy as their grocery basket at the end of the week, and that's going up.

So they feel the economy is in a bad shape. Yes, that is going up because of Trump policies. I mean, it is. Yes. So what do you say? The economy is in good shape? The economy is in fundamentally good shape, except for one factor. Except for the Donald Trump factor.

Is Donald Trump. Yeah. Okay. So we're reliant on that. Yeah. And I think that that's, that's, that is the incredibly powerful message. Things are actually not so bad, maybe even pretty good, except for this. Except for Donald Trump.

Well, and also the white noise of chaos that he brings and his anger and his chaos. The white noise is, the white noise is from data centers. The white noise is not from data centers. Oh, it is. Oh, it is. Have you ever gone past one of those old-fashioned power stations? You keep trying to do this. Have you ever gone from New York City to Newark Airport, which is just covered in a hideous power.

There was a great piece. Have you ever been by a data center? Yes, I've been past a data center. A data center. Those are not, you're in some other, you know, years ago. These data centers, which are now. They're low profile buildings on the. edges of towns. No, these are now a million square feet buildings. There was a piece. Did you see the picture that Trump? There was a piece in the Washington Post about how data centers are transforming the American rural landscape, transforming it. Have you ever flown across America and looked out

the window and just how much land there is? You see, you are so, you are so on the wrong side of this issue. This issue, this is the Democrats, the Democrats, the Democrats. The Democrats. How do you think it gets out there? Joanna, this has nothing to do with that. We're talking about AI data centers, which are, do you know what AI data centers do? They are doing the functions, trillions of functions to train AI itself.

They have nothing to do with this. They have nothing to do with any of our other technology. They have nothing to do with anything that. benefits us. AI benefits so much of what we do. I can't even have this conversation with you. It's just, it's bizarre to me. You sound like a man on a horse.

You are in the pocket. The model T Ford has just been released. And you're like, I don't care if it takes it 15 days to get to my destination. I would rather ride my horse than get in a car. Yes, you sound like who, Donald Trump. Would you rather go back to writing with a. Penn. Do you have any idea? No, this is, I'm not, I'm not having this conversation. This is, well, we can have this conversation in LA. We'll have this conversation in LA.

This is, this is, this is, um, not worthy of me. That's, that comment there is going to get tons of comments from people, not worthy of you. All right. So let's go on to the column that you wrote in Substack about Jeffrey Epstein and how obsessed Jeffrey Epstein became with what she, Donald Trump edging towards victory in the 2016 election and then cast forward to 2019 when Jeffrey Epstein dies? You know, I mean, let's cast the Epstein shadow large over Donald Trump, where it should be and where in miraculous Trump fashion he's managed to get out from under that shadow. I mean, all it took was, of course, going to war in Iraq.

What's worse in Iran? What's worse for Donald Trump, Jeffrey Epstein or the war in Iran? Why is the Epstein's story just disappeared? Because the war's just superseded. Well, I think, yeah. I mean, you know, the Epstein story. Do you think the Epstein files kept in data centers? The Epstein story got velocity because it was a proxy for Donald Trump.

And also because Donald Trump's supporters had all been part of the conspiracy theory about Epstein. Then the war in Iran turned out to be a better proxy for Donald Trump. I mean, it pinned, I mean, I mean, the war in Iran has been an out-and-out catastrophe. The Epstein thing was too much of a conspiracy, I think what was real, what was not real. And so we went on to something that was real, a war in Iran gas prices. So that's why Epstein got moved to the back burner. But Epstein is still the shut. Epstein still goes to the heart of who Donald Trump is.

And, you know, I remember. So in 2016, Jeffrey Epstein, long before anybody else I knew was paying close attention. When Donald Trump was just an amusement, a distraction in this, when Donald Trump himself basically thought he was just an amusement and distraction in the presidential politics, Epstein began to say, you know, if he really is serious about this, he could be president. He will be president. I know Donald Trump and he will do anything. He is more shameless than any politician, more dedicated to getting attention than any other human being. These are the things that will make him a formidable candidate. And even I at that time, and I think everybody at the time said, no, that's not how politics works. It's not just about attention. You know, this guy, you know, I mean, Trump is a clown.

Who's going to take him seriously? And Epstein would say, you don't know him like I know him. I know him. I know what he's capable of doing. And then also, and then he became president. So in that thing. And then Epstein was started to get, he became afraid of. this.

I saw this, afraid of the fact that his old friend was going to become president. And one of the things that he was afraid of, of course, is that he knew so much about Donald Trump. Right. And he'd given you a lot of information for your second book on Trump's The Siege. In the first book, too, in the Fire and Fury. But he was, so he had two things. he knew first thing how unfit Donald Trump was to be the president. And then he knew what he knew

about the president. So he was full of basically dangerous information about this man who he thought would become president, who then did become president. And there was an interesting moment when I was writing my second book, Siege, in which I got, and I kept pushing Epstein to tell me more about Trump. I'm going to read that paragraph from your column because you say, I tried to encourage and then to push Epstein to talk publicly about Trump, including to release photographs he had of Trump, which you've seen with the young women in constant attendance at Epstein's house. And then you have a really remarkable sentence because he says to you, I may be a pedophile, but I don't have a death wish, said Epstein. Cavalier about.

his situation and yet seemingly also clear-eyed. It gives you a shiver of that a little bit. Yeah, well, it does through the perspective of what happened to him. Yeah, no. So then in, so I'm writing my book Siege and I'm talking to him about this. And then Epstein tells me about the breakup of his friendship with Donald Trump. something I've talked about extensively before, this real estate deal in Palm Beach. Epstein bid on a house. I think he bid $36 million. And this house took his friend Trump there to advise him on

moving the swimming pool. Trump goes around his back and bids $41 million, I believe, for the house. And they have a huge fight about this. And then Epstein and Epstein threatens him with a lot of things, including exposing what Epstein believes to be this in underlying money laundering scheme. And since it's quite possible, since the house sold within a relatively short period of time. But two years, right? Sales double the price. Yeah, less than two years for double the price. To a Russian oligarch.

Yes, it certainly smells like a money laundering deal. In retaliation for Epstein's threats, Epstein then believes that Trump then went to the Palm Beach police and described what Trump knew because he had witnessed it for quite a number of years. the kind of industrial scale of young women, some of them underage, some of them underage, going to Epstein's house. And that began the investigation. I mean, that's, that's, as Epstein related this to me. I wrote this in my, my book. The book comes, comes out in, um, June 19 yeah in the middle of June 2019 um um 2000 2020 um 2000 2020 um Epstein is in Paris he calls me up he hasn't read it um I mean he's just he hadn't read it until then and he gets it immediately reads it and then he calls calls me and says you know I really think

that I may have gone too far here. I think I may have gotten. I may have screwed myself. Right. You say in the piece, Epstein called from his Paris apartment and said, I think that might have been a mistake on my part to say all that. I might have screwed myself. And then a month later, he is arrested by the FBI.

As soon as he returns from Florida. From France. Right. Yes. He's arrested. And then, and then a month later, he's dead. Now, this is, of all the things, there are many things, obviously, to note about Epstein and what Epstein did and why he deserved to be arrested and et cetera, et cetera.

But on a very focused basis, what has always been difficult to understand. understand, what has always been never explained is that the Justice Department had a non-prosecution agreement with Jeffrey Epstein. As part of his 2008 deal? Yes. 2007, anyway, yes, as part of the first time he went to prison, that there was this, the Justice Department said, we won't prosecute you if you do the following. Now, there's been a lot of controversy about this.

And a lot of, you know, that Epstein pulled strings and had influence in order to get this. And that becomes the, that has become the focus. But put that aside because there was, what we do know is that there was a non-prosecution agreement in place. What we also know is that the Justice Department has never reneged on a non-prosecution agreement. I mean, these non-prosecution agreements come up fairly often. and that's how you get someone to cooperate with you on, on, you know, you offer, this is just part of, a common part of plea deals. And what you're, from the Justice Department's point of view, you certainly don't want anyone to doubt your, that you're, that you'll

follow the terms of a non-prosecution agreement. I mean, it's essentially a contract. Right. Well, you don't want them to think they're going to renege on the deal. Exactly. So you have, but suddenly, when the FBI arise at the airport, Epstein coming back from Paris, they have effectively reneged on this non-prosecution agreement. So, and he was, he, I mean, Epstein was never, ever, ever, I mean, he was worried about a lot of things, local prosecutors coming after him, this and that, but never the Justice Department.

The Justice Department comes after him, arrests him, and he's in jail. Why did this happen? And remember, his friend, Donald Trump, person he knows probably better than, you know, maybe anyone knows him. Certainly he knows better Donald Trump's level of personal, what would be the word, depravity. and then anyone else. So why has the Justice Department taken this extraordinary step? And there's probably two reasons. One, because Donald Trump has gotten his Justice Department to arrest his friend Epstein,

because possibly because of what I wrote in my book, that he already is starting to feel. that Epstein is talking too much, that something might come out here. Is that possible? Certainly possible. I mean, we know how Donald Trump treats the Justice Department. Well, and also when your first book came out, you tried to have it injuncted, right? Of course.

But then the other thing is that he's arrested in New York by the Southern District. He's arrested in New York or he's arrested technically in New Jersey? Well, in New Jersey, but by the Southern District. It's their jurisdiction. The Southern District is prosecuting him. The Southern District is famous for its independence. He is also being the lead prosecutor is a woman by the name of Maureen Comey, who is the daughter of James Comey, who is... Formerer FBI director.

Yeah, who Trump fired and is still trying to prosecute. And, you know, I mean, there is clearly a blood score between these two men. Well, and let's just remind people he's trying to prosecute James Comey because he posted a picture of some shells that either he found on the beach or he arranged on the beach, which were the numbers 8, 647, which Trump claimed meant James Comey was ordering people to murder Trump. Right. So his daughter is the prosecutor and his daughter who Trump will will, when he comes back into office, will, fire. So the choices are either Trump has ordered the Justice Department to arrest Epstein or the Southern District investigating Donald Trump has arrested Epstein breaking the non-prosecution agreement in an effort to get him to testify against Donald Trump. Wow. So,

That leads us back to why did Jeffrey Epstein die? Yes. Or how did he die? And it doesn't answer. It really doesn't shed any light on that question. I don't know how Jeffrey Epstein died. It says perfectly... But Jeffrey Epstein felt he was being targeted.

Yeah, I mean, I think Jeff is... Although Jeffrey Epstein didn't know he was going to be arrested, otherwise it wouldn't have flown back. Right. But at that point, Jeffrey Epstein knew with the non-prosecution agreement was was in place and he thought they weren't going to break. Yeah. And the fact that it was broken suddenly meant how could this have happened?

And there aren't a lot of reasons why this, why the Justice Department would suddenly rene got a non-prosecution agreement when they have never. reneged before. We're all going to have to reread siege. So, and I don't, and again, does this explain why Jeffrey Epstein was, was how he died? No, he could have been, he could very well have seen there is no exit for me here. I am, I am, as he said, screwed. So I'm going to take this way out. And that's, to me, is easier to explain than the idea that he would have been murdered. But we're in a, we're in a, we're in a dark place. Well, and we have a mafia type president.

We have a mafia type president. Yeah. Would it surprise anyone if Donald Trump said get rid of them? Well, it could be like one of those, you know, who will be. me the head of this meddlesome, well, this meddlesome priest I was thinking of. Yes. Well, well, well, okay, well, that's a lot to digest. Wow, we've covered a lot of ground from the midterms to the candidates standing to

data centers. And it ought to be. Of course, it ought to be in any consideration of Donald Trump. I mean, this is one of his gifts. There's so many things to consider about Donald Trump that you forget. the other things. But here is Donald Trump's closest relationship in life. And I believe that this to be true. I mean, I believe he has had no other close. No friend as close as Jeffrey Epstein opens up a dark place. I wonder if, and we should ask any of the Epstein victims out there

if you have plans to get together pre the midterms to remind people about the other three million Epstein files, which have yet to be released. Anybody who knows what's coming, please let us know so we can talk about it. We have some limericks, which I know you enjoy. Our first one from our new limericist, I think that's a word, Chris Hughes, not the Facebook, Chris Hughes. He's from Canada, and he sent us another one. Wow, what a big welcome for she. Servicemen down on one knee to Cydides' trap meets Trumpian crap and some ass kissing. Thrown in for free.

Fantastic. Very good. And then we've got another one from, this time from a new Limerist, Mark Coughlin. The grift king disgust with his greasy jowls, not to mention his temper. usually foul. Regulations and restrictions and nothing but fiction as le code, Cé moi, he growls. I thought it was very good because you were fascinated by Trump saying he was the code. And we've got one from someone called Paul Hillman. He sent several verses. I'm just reading the final verse. Trump on the White House yard, Trump on the boulevard. He banned the press,

but we will carry on egomaniacal. It's undeniable. In two more years, we'll put the ban on Don. That's about the press. I get. In banning the press. I get. In banning the press.

Anyway, thank you. Keep them coming. We'll be back on Thursday. And, well, I'm sure the world will have turned since then. Thank you, everybody. Whoever you are. I think you should give people specific notes. You've got two producers sitting right in front of you.

John. Heather, Neil, Rachel. See him on Thursday. And don't forget to leave us a comment with what you think. I know you all think I'm wrong about data centers. So the good news is we have so many Bee Beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support.