The Daily Beast Podcast - This is Why Trump Can't Shut Up and Listen: Wolff

Episode Date: August 22, 2025

Donald Trump doesn’t listen. He doesn’t read. He just talks. On ‘Inside Trump’s Head’, Joanna Coles and Michael Wolff explore why Trump embarks on endless monologues, his Oval Office turned into a bus station, and the “wall of sound” that keeps people out. Wolff shares surreal White House moments, from generals with PowerPoints Trump ignored to phone calls that lasted for hours. The episode also delves into Trump’s unusual routines, Melania’s cryptic note to Putin, and why the mainstream media still struggles to cover the 47th President of the United States competently. What emerges is a portrait of a man stuck in 1965 Rat Pack Vegas, yet still dominating the digital age in 2025. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Okay, we're back, Michael. Say something, please. Joanna. Tuesday's episode was just so full. It was Epstein's visit to see Putin. It was, what does Putin have on Trump? Where can we go today? Except that we promised that we would talk about why Donald Trump can't shut up. It's a pathology. Yeah, no, and I think just to emphasize what we're trying to do here, the way people, the media particularly, continues to talk about Trump as if he is a, you know, an normal person or at least a normal politician.

Politicians function in certain ways. It's all about cause and effect. That's what they do. You can analyze them on a through a very precise window. Instead of saying, because you can't say the New York Times can't run a headline, you know, Trump, there's something wrong with him. Well, actually, it could, but it doesn't because they insist on covering it with a special formula, which is saved for politics, and I think makes politics very dull. Well, it also fails to understand what's going on here. So let's get a picture of what everyone who has ever spent any time, I mean, the slightest amount of time with Donald Trump. What is the impression that they come away? What do they take away from this? They take away a single thing, they take away many things, but the top of the list is he cannot stop talking.

And when I say that, I don't mean that as an exaggeration. I don't mean that as a something we might say about this gas bag or that gas bag. This is not just gas baggery. This is, there is no breath. All right, let's just remind people that this is, well, Where are we going? Inside Trump's head. This is our new podcast, Michael Wolfe, the Trump chronicler, and myself going deep into the dark matter of Donald Trump's head.

And one of the things that when he speaks, what is inside the head comes out of the mouth. And it doesn't. So whatever confusion, chaos, churning, past grievances. weaving, you know, comes out and it doesn't stop. So you will sit with him and you could sit with him for hours and you will never, ever, ever have a moment to say anything. So does he ever listen? No. And, you know, when in the early administration, the first administration in the early years,

And I was sitting there in the White House writing this first book of mine about Trump and sat there for, for, you know, seven months. And I saw, and everyone at that point in the White House was new to Trump. I mean, he didn't really know anybody in the political world, you know, except Rudy Giuliani and Chris Christie. That was literally it. So everybody kind of came in and it was all new to them. And I remember this kind of watching this and hearing people's talk about this, and they would say, they would say in a kind of puzzled fashion, you know he doesn't read anything. I mean, really doesn't read anything.

So he doesn't read intelligence reports? It's not even, but even that it doesn't read anything. It's not that he reads synopsuses. It's not that he even reads headlines, which some people say, well, he reads headlines. He doesn't. It doesn't. And you could not give him information in written form. And then they would say, you know, this is a big problem. Is the President of the United States probably the most information intensive job on earth? And there was no way to get him this information. And then they would sort of pause and he says, and then say, but it's even more severe because he doesn't listen either. So therefore, the two ways. The only two ways of getting information to someone he had blocked off. So he doesn't listen and he doesn't read. Susie Wiles, I was watching her on a podcast, Pod Force One with Amanda Devine from the New York Post.

And Susie Wiles pushed back on the concept that he doesn't read. And as proof, she said that he's always marking up articles in magazines and newspapers and sending them to the journalist with his kind of school. Well, I can give you my experience with this. So I wrote a piece about, first piece about Trump or in his political career in 2016. Was this a piece for the Hollywood Reporter? It was for the Hollywood Reporter and it was a cover story. Yeah, I remember you went to his house in Hollywood.

Exactly. And I got one of those things in which he, he wrote on the piece. And he said, great cover. Right. His picture, of course. Right. Which I'm sure he's got framed somewhere.

So, you know, these are, I mean, Susie Wiles is going to, I mean, she's paid to say that she can't say, oh, yeah, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't read anything. Do you think he's dyslexic? I mean, his behavior is slightly dis, I mean, the fact that, I mean, lots of people don't read and then they phone all the time, which he does. I think it's more. complicated than that. And that's why it's always, always, I think not helpful to apply. He's a narcissist. He's this. And Steve Bannon, and I often come back to Steve because, you know, I mean, in the trenches with Trump. And Steve is a smart guy. He came out with some of the better insights about what was going on with, with Trump. He was always kind of like flabber.

But he said, in his view, Trump was waging a lifelong battle against information. He didn't like people to tell him things, possibly likely because he couldn't absorb it or process it very well. And then he had, you know, he had authority issues, so he really didn't like people to tell him things. he couldn't sit in a classroom when he had to sit in a classroom that always ended poorly and he got bad grades and and you know and teachers yelled at him and that's why he got sent to military school yes i mean it was all a thing and it was all kind of um kind of involved with people telling him stuff and i think probably his parents too were always always doing this so as a way to prevent people from telling him things he he He just talks. I mean, so therefore, it's all one way. It's all broadcast. Nothing comes, nothing comes in.

Everything is blocked by this Trump wall of sound. Right. So he's on transmit. He's never on receive. Never. You can literally, you cannot, you cannot stop him. I have wondered from time to time. How does Trump go to bed at night?

because it's increasingly obvious. Melania's nowhere there. He spends a lot of time on his own. He doesn't appear to have any friends. His colleagues around him all hate him and they hate each other. When he actually goes into his bedroom at night and he gets into bed, does he, I mean, like, what's going on in here? Is he still talking?

Does he talk himself to sleep? I don't know. I haven't been in the Trump bedroom. But do you think he goes... So I haven't, I haven't slept with Trump, which is not the same, by the way, and we will do this some other time with RFK Jr. We'll go to. You slept with RFK Jr. I've slept in the same room as RFK Jr.

So we'll go to that. Was this recently? No, this was quite a while ago, a long time ago. But it's memorable. Okay, I want to hear more about that's an episode. I assume that Trump falls asleep with the televisions on. I assume that too. And he's on the phone too.

So I mean, I think into the last possible moment. So he's talking almost himself to sleep. He's talking to somebody. I mean, the only thing that I know about Trump's bedtime habits is that during the first administration, he had a lock installed on his bedroom door and that precipitated a fight with the Secret Service, who actually took it off, demanded it be taken off. So, and it was, you know, they were, they were, this was a confrontation. And then there was another issue when the, the White House domestic staff changed his sheets

and he had a, had a fit. What that's about, I have no idea. But meaning what, that he likes to change his own sheets? You know, I don't, it was one of those things I didn't, not I did not want to pursue that beyond. Michael, that is a journalistic question. You should have been after that. I would have pursued that.

That is very interesting. All right. So he's got this wall of sound. You walk into his office. I mean, you've talked before about the Oval Office and how he sits behind the desk. Just describe that scene. Again, something extraordinary. The Oval Office in other administrations has been a kind of, you know,

know, a sacrosanth place and a place of meaning and ritual and, you know, you're making a point. You're having people into the Oval Office and you want them to know it. So in Trump's Oval Office, it's like a bus station. It's just filled with people, 20 people, 30 people, more. They bring in chairs. Almost anyone can come in and sit down. and Trump is behind the desk talking, talking. It's like a monologue.

He's monologous. Yes. I mean, it is his monologue. And sometimes it's kind of funny. He's trying to make jokes and he's or then digressing into, you know, have no idea where. And everybody is sitting there pretending to listen. They're not really. The phones are.

They're all on their phone. Yeah, down. But that's the thing. thing and that's the idea of proximity. You have to be there because you know you want to be close to him but there's no interaction of being close to him. But I've often wondered if actually with Donald Trump you don't want to be in the room because if you're in the room you're on his radar and his radar is so unpredictable and it's picking up signals. No absolutely it's many people including Jared Kushner understood don't be in the room. But you're not a but you're not. But you're

But you're not really in the room in the Oval Office in these big sessions. I mean, you're just sitting there with literally everybody else. So basically everybody is an audience. Everybody is a member of the audience. Yes, everybody is an audience. And everybody, he doesn't want to speak to people. He doesn't want you to tell him things. He doesn't want to discuss the issues and problems and how do we solve

this. I mean, if you think about this, being the president of the United States is an incredibly detailed job. I mean, all of these problems are intractable, and you have to parse them on a, on a very incremental basis. Well, that's not something that Trump is going to do ever. So how does he avoid that? And the way to avoid that is that one way is that he doesn't shut up. I mean, I have seen him when, and the great mistake, especially this is, this is, the generals make this mistake. The generals are all kind of McKinsey-like people now. And they always bring out the PowerPoints. He's out of the room.

So the minute. He doesn't last 45 seconds. Well, actually, I'm with him on that. I can't bear a PowerPoint. And I didn't enjoy school either. So I'm also, I'm sort of slightly more sympathetic to the sort of. wrote learning and trying to squeeze information into people. But again, it takes one back to your book and this extraordinary dilemma that it was almost as if Trump was going to prison or he was

going to the White House. And you think of his friend Jeffrey Epstein. The two of them were best friends for at least 10 years. One of them ends up dying in strange circumstances in jail. The other ends up. The worst jail in America. Okay. So one of the men's up dying in the worst jail in America with all sorts of conspiracy theories around their death and the other ends up swinging his legs from the president's chair behind the resolute desk. It's just a remarkable story, which is why I think it has to be told and why I like your way of thinking about Donald Trump as a really remarkable character who stayed on top of popular culture for the last 40 years. He's gone from magazines through television to digital. How does his talking all the time,

play out on the apprentice. But at the same time, he's a person stuck in another time. He's stuck in a permanent 1965. I mean, Rat Pack, Vegas, you know, I think I described that scene during his trial in New York when he gathered all his lawyers together to yell at them and said, have you ever heard of a man by the name of Perry? Mason. The old television line.

So all of his references are from another moment. But that speaks to people because there are lots of people in America whose references are also stuck there. No. And there is Roger Ailes who is instrumental in the rise of Donald Trump. And Roger Ailes is the founder of Fox News and who led Fox News for 20 years. but once said to me, he said, your people, meaning you, I guess, liberals, you know, you live in today, whatever. He said, the people I speak to, the people Fox News is for, they live in 1965. He said, he singled out.

And then with a kind of looked, he said, before the Voting Rights Act. Right. And it was. I mean, I think that there's a smart argument there that culture moves at a different speed. And some people move with it. Or some people, their culture is on a fast speed. Others very much not. We're going to take a break right now for some advertising words I never thought I would say.

And we're back to talk about why Donald Trump doesn't ever. ever shut up. Okay, so he's got one leg in 1965, but he definitely has one leg in 2025 in terms of truth, social, understanding, Twitter, really getting a grip of digital media in a way that no other political figure has managed to do with quite as much effect. You can see Gavin Newsom now, you know, chasing to catch up, to some effect, I think. But Donald Trump's remarkable ability to stay on top. of the medium that delivers him to an audience, to the public, has been crazy.

How does his talking all the time, how did that impact him on The Apprentice? Well, yeah, and remember, and always go back to this, and I think it's key. He was the star of a top-rated reality television show for 14 years. And, you know, the nature and people who worked on The Apprentice have described this to me as, You know, The Apprentice was a reality show, and reality shows aren't supposed to be scripted, but they are scripted. Yeah, of course they're scripted. Except for that show, because he could never learn a script. You know, again, he would be given a printed matter and would push it to one side.

So in order to, so what the show had to do is just run the camera constantly. and run the sound, the audio, constantly. So that they would, and they would, they would, they would, they would amass this, this, I mean, essentially a monologue that went on for all of the hours that they were, that they were filming this. And out of that, they, out of, out of 10 hours, they would construct, you know, a, you know, a, you know, a tight, whatever it was, 50 minutes. Well, it was very well edited then, because you absolutely can't tell.

I also feel resistant sometimes to a script. I'm feeling more and more sympathetic to Donald Trump, which is absolutely not the point. But give that some, I mean, there are two questions here. There's Donald Trump as the performer and the communicator, and then there's Donald Trump as the human being. As the human being, somebody just speaking to you constantly, and who he speaks to doesn't matter.

It's undifferentiated. You know, once I sat with Trump and Melania at dinner at Mar-a-Lago, and he would talk, he would just the story that he or the line of thought that he began as you sat down, and then he would continue. It would just, he would just turn his head to whatever a new person came up to him and keep going uninterrupted. He certainly wouldn't begin again. So it doesn't matter who he's speaking to.

And as the people around him remind, always point out, he says the same thing to everyone. This is one of the reasons it's very easy to track what he's thinking. But exhausting to be around, isn't it? Totally. I mean, everybody is on their knees. But the other side of that, the performer side of that, the communicator, you know, I mean, if in contrast to every other politician, the most guarded

people in the world, the most phony people in the world, the most scripted people in the world, the most in their public guise in human people or, you know, not, I mean, their whole thing is to, is to remove their humanness. And to not say anything. Exactly. And so then suddenly Trump comes out and it just comes, you know, whatever he says, it's spontaneous, it's absolutely reflective of what he thinks, feels, what's on his mind. There are no filters. And it's why people like him. It's why people vote for him because they feel, I mean, even if it's phony and he's pretending to be on their side when he's not, they love the fact that he doesn't speak like a regular the politician? No, no, I mean, no, I was with just over the weekend, I was with a Democratic politician

who is, I guess, may or may not run for president, and, you know, a totally reasonable person, a person whose ideas you can admire, but every, every question was a policy paragraph. The whole world was he related to it through the lens of issues without understanding. People don't care about it. Issues really are not. They say they care about that, but that is not the principal thing. What the principal thing is, what kind of connection? Do I have a connection to you? Are you speaking to me? And Trump has completely mastered this. Yeah, and they also speak in jargon. I mean, I've interviewed a lot of politicians over the year. And apart from Yeltsin, actually, Boris Yeltsin, who was then president of Russia. And they're drunk.

Well, I was going to say he was drunk. He was drunk. He was drunk. So the first of all, I said, you know, what are you doing here? He was addressing the European Parliament. And I said, what are you doing here? And he said, I have no idea. I don't know why I'm here.

I don't know what I'm doing here. And it was the most wonderful opening to an interview because normally you talk to people and that by the end of their first line, you're just like, oh. And you can't get. anything human out of them because they've just been trained with a centimeter of their life that you cannot actually be human. It's very strange what we've done to politicians and why everybody's so afraid. And given the chaos out there online anyway. And that is part of a media thing. Politicians became very afraid that every word was going to be recorded and used against them. And repeated. And And then Trump broke that paradigm.

And because the other thing that happened is that is that the premium became breaking through the media clutter. How do you do that? Attention, attention, attention. And you do that by saying these outrageous things. And instead of that sinking Trump, which everybody thought, grabbed them by the pussy, John McCain's a coward, you know. Yeah, suckers and losers. The gold star mothers, you know, they had. you know, et cetera, et cetera.

Instead of that sinking him, that made people pay attention to him. It's extraordinary. All right. So let me ask you about Melania's letter to Vladimir Putin. She grew up in Slovenia. She's Eastern European. She grew up under the mantle of the Soviet Union. What did you make of it?

I think that this latest letter is actually a diss, a dis at Trump. She's Eastern European, obviously has long experience and feelings about Russia and Russians and Putin. And she probably sees, you know, her husband bowing down to Putin and it rankles. I mean, it's like, you know, fuck him. Interesting. So it was sort of passive aggressive gesture towards her husband. because the letter didn't really say anything. It talked about children and how children should be allowed to run free and have their imaginations.

Yes. But, you know, but clearly addressed to the Russians and to Putin and to the fact that, you know, who suffers most in war is children. And also, let's remember that I think one of the subjects that Trump is probably the least interested. in and the most averse to his children? Well, he sounded irritated this week when he said, I think he was talking to Zelensky, as Zelensky presented a letter from his wife for Melania, and Trump immediately started to open it.

And Zelensky went, no, no, it's actually for the first lady. But he said, oh, she loves children, she loves baron, she loves baron, she loves baron, even more than she loves me. And again, the sort of bringing it back to him that, you know, outrageous that a mother would love her son more than she would love Donald Trump? Yeah, no, no. I mean, again, I just think, and we have no way of, we're not going to prove this, but if reading between the lines, between the AI lines, I think it's she's sending a

message. I mean, it's always hard to tell. She's always seems to be sending a message. You just can never decipher it, but that's my effort. I'm sending message to Donald. Well, maybe they really don't speak to each other anymore, so they have to triangulate via Putin. Well, they certainly don't speak often to each other. They're not the only spouses to do that.

So one of my many vivid memories, but was about a month into the administration, the first administration. That was a moment that I got my first phone call from Donald Trump. and it was that kind of thing. You know, you get a call, is this Michael Wolf? This is the White House. I have the president for you. Which at that moment actually was, you know,

one is electrifying. I imagine it's always electrifying, and it should be as the president of the United States. Well, it's less and less as time goes on. But that was, that was the good. And he came on, and he came on the phone, and then he started to talk. And I was, yes, Mr. President, yes, Mr. President.

I'd never actually gotten to say that before, so that was, I enjoyed that. But then it kept going on. And I kept looking at the clock thinking, what was going to end any seconds, the President of the United States. And he went on and on. And then at some point, I just put him on the speaker phone. and every my children, my wife, the voice is just blasting through the house. And it doesn't end.

It literally goes on for, I mean, I had to bring it. I mean, I'm just, I'm the guilt, I'm feeling the guilt. I'm holding the world up. One month into his administration, you're thinking surely you have more important things to do. Yes, finally, literally, I brought it to him. end, but it would have gone on and on and on. And it did go on. And that is, you know, I mean, I have now grown accustomed to that because I speak to quite a number of people who receive

these phone calls from him regularly. And it's one of the ways I can follow exactly what's going on in his head. And we're going to take a break for some ads. And we're back. Of course, I'm talking with Michael Wolf. This is the inside Trump's head. podcast and we are discussing what else Donald Trump. So just to be clear, when he called you or when he's sitting behind the Oval Office desk, he's just, what is he talking about exactly? Is it that? No, you couldn't possibly be able to say. I mean, he is, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's free association. It's whatever is on his mind at that moment in time, which is not the same as the next moment in time, which is also, reflected in this in a call. So I mean, I mean, it's it's very important to understand that not only

is he talking all the time, most of what he's saying might appear to be nonsense. So, and has that got worse? When you're talking to people who spoke to him in the first administration, who are still receiving the calls, and a lot of them obviously have dropped off that, that calling roster, do they think he's gotten worse? Not particularly. It's always been like that. It's always, yes. I mean, it just goes on and on and on and on and on and filling the space, and you just have to not make the mistake to try to have a conversation with it.

I mean, it's very reminiscent of how dictators behave. You think of Stalin who would talk for hours on end. You think of Fidel Castro, who would literally deliver seven-hour lectures to the people. Kim John Un, who doesn't speak his house on a loudspeaker. And Trump, if you've ever seen a Trump rally. Right. And there are really two important points to make about Trump rallies. You know, the New York Times description is always kind of darkness at noon when, in fact, it's kind of everybody's having a great time.

You know, tailgate party like. But the other thing is. Because he's an entertainer. And he's having a great time. Right. And the thing that you can see is always a sense of disappointment, reluctance, when it has to end. And this goes on. You know, he'll do 90 minutes, two hours, no problem.

He's like an old stand-up comedian who just wants an audience, right? He wants the energy from the room. He wants to work the room. Yeah, no. And you can see the way he does. So he's constantly, he's just throwing out things, throwing out, looking for the response. And when he gets the response that he wants. then he just repeats it and repeats it and repeats it.

I mean, the level of repetition is extraordinary, which it would be if you have to fill all of this space. And when you're speaking to him one on one, you can hear the same things in the same conversation. I use the word conversation loosely, the same monologue three, four, three or four times. You know what he should do when he leaves the White House? He should have a podcast.

He should have a podcast. There's another interesting thing. Go on. I can't lie. Is that someone described this to me, and I believe actually this is Steve Bannon again, as that he doesn't really acknowledge a reality outside the sound of his own voice. So it's all, everything there is going on. And the things that are outside going on some other.

place are just not germane in the moment he is talking. So I understand that analysis and you talked about him as the human being and you talked about him as the performer and the producer. But as president, there are things outside of the reality he has created for himself. Well, that's why this is incredibly exceptional and dangerous. Yes. So in terms of him just trying to understand what's happening with. Russia and Ukraine and Europe.

Is there any of that sort of penetrating him other than what's in it for Donald Trump, possibly a Nobel Peace. No, I don't think so. I mean, yes, he'll get some penitarily. I mean, the one way to communicate with him is through the television. So, and through the headlines. So whatever the media blowback, he gets part of that. So his constantly, you know, the constant refrain.

how's it playing? Yeah, we had a story in the Daily Beast on Saturday, actually, that he'd gone nuts because the coverage was so bad of the first summit with Putin. Right. So that's an input that he takes. But almost like a performer reacting to his reviews. Yes, exactly. But in terms of I'm going to try to independently understand what is happening here

and trying to find a context and trying to find the baseline from which to work off and understand Putin, for instance. Or most basically, I'm going into this meeting with Putin, incredibly important, and I'm going to prepare for that. I should prepare. I have to prepare. He doesn't prepare. So it's always off the cuff, again, in a way like a comedian. You know, your life is, life and governing is a long riff. And of course, we know that Putin prepares. Do we know that? Yeah, I think we do know that. I think we do know that.

Oh, goodness me. All right. Well, Michael, we'll be back next week next Tuesday and next Thursday to go further and deeper into Donald Trump. head. You're going to keep making me say this. I am going to keep making you. I'm totally going going to make you keep saying that. So somewhere, I can, I can hear some. It's Donald Trump talking. Somewhere, you will always hear the mutterings of Donald Trump talking. I now actually envisage him going to sleep on the phone and just talking slower and slower. And then whoever's

on the other line can't tell if he's still there or not. Maybe he snores. I don't know. I just can't imagine him going to bed and having that moment you think most people have as they're wrapping up their day in their head and they're drifting off. What can it be like to be inside his head? No, and it's an important point. He is on the phone all the time. Because he doesn't want to be on his own. I mean, he needs to be connected to an audience. And the ironic thing is the personal audience, the family audience around him that most people have have vanished. Well, if, if, they ever existed, frankly. You know, I mean, I've often thought, and for, for, you know, a decade or more, you know,

I used to see Donald Trump in New York on a regular basis. I mean, it would seem that every place that I went at night in New York, I would see Donald Trump. So, you know, with the conclusion that that he must be always out. Now, he might have thought that about me, too. I was going to say, I can't believe that you're not. Studio 54. But it was that thing that you saw someone without living a wholly exterior life.

And you began, and I think fairly to doubt, was there any interior life here at all? And this was after decades, after decade after decade. And I think it's true. And I think it's part of what produced this, shall we say, unique person. Oh, we haven't mentioned my T-shirt, by the way. You haven't noticed it. I'm wearing it not because I went to Harvard because I didn't go to Harvard. I'm not one of those people.

But because it's got three trigger words on it. Harvard, Kennedy, and school. And it was sent me by Nelskavelle, one of our writers at The Daily Beast, but it's three unlikely trigger words. My son, my four-year-old son, likes all kinds of, he now has a T-shirt thing. Oh, he does he has a T-shirt collection? All right. I'll see if I can find a smaller one for him.

But I wonder if they will rename the Kennedy Center, the Melania Center, which they've been thinking about. Well, they damn well should. All right. That's probably part of the settlement. Part of the settlement, the divorce settlement. Not the divorce settlement, the Harvard. Oh, the Harvard settlement. I thought you meant their divorce settlement, which I'm assuming is coming at some point.

Maybe they don't need a divorce settlement. Yeah, why would they? They don't speak together. They don't live together. Right. Right. And he's mean. He's not going to want to pay her.

He's not going to want to pay her. Michael, thank you for yet again illuminating the wall of sound that comes wherever Donald Trump is. Okay, we'll be back next Tuesday and Thursday. You're making me say it again. Yeah, I'm making you say it again. To go inside Donald Trump's head. We're going to go back inside Donald Trump's head. We should get danger pay for doing this.

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