The Daily Beast Podcast - This Trump Lackey Knows He Isn't Telling the Truth

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

Joanna Coles sits down with MSNBC’s own Stephanie Ruhle—seasoned financial journalist and host of The 11th Hour—for a sharply insightful breakdown of the economic theater inside Trumpworld. Ruhle dissects the tensions between truth and loyalty for financiers like Scott Bessent, who finds himself defending Trump-era trade policies he once publicly opposed, and contrasts him with Trump loyalists like Howard Lutnick, ever willing to sell the show. With a signature mix of Wall Street fluency and media savvy, Ruhle unpacks the deeper motivations behind Elon Musk’s quiet exit from Washington, the strategic silence of major investors, and how grift has gone from subtle to spectacular in the Trump era. Follow @SRuhle for her razor-sharp takes on money, power, and the political theater that binds them. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Oh, sorry, I'm Joanna Cole's chief content officer of The Daily Beast. I was just inspired by Elon Musk there to try something with our plastic cutlery from the Daily Beast canteen. You are watching The Daily Beast podcast and today our guest is none other than the fabulous, highly energetic and brilliant Stephanie Rule. She worked in banking. She worked for Bloomberg. Now she's the anchor at MSNBC's The 11th Hour. And I love talking to her because she's full of in. sites and she, like Michael Wolfe, talks to people all the time, both in the White House and in

Wall Street. So she's full of up-to-date information about what people really think about the president. So let's get into it. Stephanie, you've got a great background. You worked in finance. My first question for you, really, amid the chaos and the madness, is does Donald Trump actually know anything about economics? He knows about business. Yeah, he definitely. He definitely. He definitely knows about business, but he does not know about economics and, listen, talk to any credible economist out there, even any credible investor. One of the biggest frustrations about Donald Trump and the way he's handling trade and the way the White House is, it's not based in truth. So it's like when you watch Scott Bessent on television and when people say, I thought Scott Bessent was really smarter, why is he so nervous on television? he's super smart and he really understands economics.

But one of the reasons he struggles on television is because he's not telling the truth, right? You and I both know being on television is really hard and we're actually reporting the truth. We're speaking facts. Scott Besson deeply understands how trade and trade deficit works. He knows where manufacturing lies. He understands the fiscal cliff. But he's backed into a corner with Donald Trump having to defend. a position that's not rooted in truth. Now, Howard Lutnik is happy to do that because

Howard Lutnik is a broker. Okay, Howard Lutnik isn't even, you know, an end investor. He's a middle guy, right? So he'll sell whatever Donald Trump wants him to sell that day, to win the trade, to get the commission. Scott Besson, it deeply understands economics and why that is why this is so hard for him to justify all of it. But isn't it also hard for Scott Besson to go on television because it's really about an audience of one, right? So he's actually performing for Donald Trump. That's the only judge. And so he's sort of scrambling to obey his boss.

Yes. And because he knows he has said things in the last year, in the years before that, he's written letters that fly directly in the face of policies he's forced to defend right now. It's extremely difficult for him. Whereas for Howard Lutnik, he's happy to put on the show and the performance because that's what he's always done, right?

Scott Bessent, who's an actual end investor and who knows huge investors are watching, people who respect him, people who called the White House and said, choose Scott Bessent, don't choose Howard Lutnik to be the Treasury Secretary. Scott Bessent knows many of those massive investors are speaking to people like me. So how does this end for Scott Besson? you've raised a really interesting point when serious people go to work in a Trump administration, it tends to end extremely badly for them. Well, it's amazing. When you look at serious person after serious person, it just reminds you of the woman who says, I'm going to change that jerk boyfriend.

I know he was horrible to every woman before me, but me, I'm special. He's going to change. And so, yeah, there's a long line of roadkill. But if you're a skisker. Scott, you can also, at a moment like this, end up believing your own hype that people are hoping and praying that you'll be the savior, right? I have sources call me all the time, say, how's Scott doing? Is he secure in the White House? Is it a battle between Scott and Howard? Scott, in some ways, you know, is backed into a corner and he's frustrated because how does

he defend Trump's position or where does he go from here? But on the other, he is the person that the finance community, maybe even people that he's negotiating trade with are hanging their hat on, saying, please, can this guy save the day? You know, Kevin Warsh is one of the most respected names and minds on Wall Street. He currently works with Stan Drucken Miller. His name is still batted around to replace Jay Powell when Jay Powell's term is up. And, you know, there's all this like, well, Jay Powell's standing strong. He's not leaving.

Jay Powell isn't leaving. His term is up in less than a year. Like, we can't forget that. He's not here for the next three years of Trump. His term is up. So it's funny, I often think, well, you know, every time things take another leg down with how Trump approaches the massive grift or trade, all of it, I think a guy like Kevin Warsh, there's no way he's going to want this job. But then, who knows, right? The people we're talking about have two lanes, right?

Money and power. And they already have an enormous amount of money. the other lane is power. And so as much as I'm like, these guys are never going to go work for the Trump administration, lots of people were willing to work for the Trump administration.

It was Trump who made his number one priority, loyalty rather than qualifications. Remember, the person who ran the transition was Howard Lutnik and Linda McMahon. And Howard said over and over on television, the number one quality we are looking for in people who are going to join this administration, is loyalty to Trump.

So the other person whose name was up for it to be treasurer's secretary was Mark Rowan, who was one of the most successful people in the business world. He runs Apollo. And Trump chose Scott Besson over Mark Rowan. And I wonder, does Mark feel like, you know, like the greatest thing ever, he's so glad he dodged that bullet?

Or does Mark Rowan think, I would have been the guy that would have tamed Trump? I would be the guy that would convince him. Because remember, all of the people people we're talking about, they're not normal civilians, right? They are masters of the universe guys who look at all the money they've made, who look at all the deals they've completed, and they think I can be the woman to change that jerk. It's a great way of looking at it. All right. So let's talk about Elon for a second, and we're recording this on a Monday. So this morning, Michael Cohen said on

your network, MSNBC, that he thought now Trump would go after Elon, that he was tired of America giving all these grants to green cars and that he would now go after him because what he really wants is Elon's money and Elon's done his duty for him at Doge. I wanted to get your impression of that. So I obviously don't have a crystal ball. I don't think this Elon Trump breakup is as severed as everyone, as other people think. You know, everyone who's saying Elon has left Washington with his tail between his legs with a black guy literally and figuratively. And, you know, he did an interview with CBS last week and he said

Doge ended up being the whipping boy. I'm not sure Elon is that disappointed. And here's why. Four months ago, there were scores of lawsuits, investigations, pending fines, all lining up for Elon Musk's businesses. And as Elon Musk is exiting Washington, where have all those investigations gone by the way of the dodo bird, poof, they have disappeared. Even Elon Musk last week when he had his third failed rocket launch, he said, if you notice in his quote after, he says, yes, yes, this didn't work, but we're going to have more in a few weeks. In fact, you're going to see more and in a rapid succession. And when he said you're going to see more and more often, you know what I thought? Deregulation. There is probably less and less regulation. There's less red

tape standing in the way of what Elon Musk wants to do. And even in that interview, he did, his t-shirt said something like colonize Mars or headed to Mars. Elon Musk's top goal is to go to Mars. And what would he love more than anything? To do it on the government's dime. So yes, he's leaving Washington, but Trump didn't send him packing. Elon Musk's investors, some of the biggest investors in Tesla said, get your behind off that couch in the Oval Office and get back to Austin, Texas. So this idea that they're having this huge breakup, don't forget, Elon Musk right now is saying, you know, I'm going back to Texas or blah, blah, blah, blah. He has the deepest of deep pockets. And yes, today he's saying he's not going to invest in future races. He could change tomorrow.

So this idea that Trump is going to suddenly turn on Elon, I'm just not sure that's the case. What about going after his money, though? I mean, let's talk about Trump's grift, which at this level, I mean, David Frum said in the Atlantic this weekend that this is now banana republic levels of grief. This is post-colonial African country levels of grift. I don't know if I would say that. Someone else last week said this is more like outer borough mobster shit. The thing that's so extraordinary about it is that he's not hiding it. And that's what's so alarming. And the alarming thing for me is that people keep on trucking.

Congress is allowing it. The Department of Justice is allowing it. So the things standing in the way are going to be the business community and the general public. I'm actually surprised that there's not more absolute outrage by the general public, which begs the question, has the general public lost complete faith in government. Have they been convinced that the government in general is so corrupt? Is the right-wing media apparatus so strong and so big that people don't realize the level of the grift? Because it's extraordinary. Donald Trump is finally wealthier beyond his wildest dreams. Look at truth social. Truth social does not make money. All it is is a platform. that he sends his tweet equivalence out on.

And if the next level is eventually Twitter buys Truth Social, that's the other reason I don't think these two are completely breaking up because Musk could be waiting in the wings ready to buy Truth Social. And the way the Gryft is working with the crypto industry, the crypto industry has been trying to buy off lawmakers on both sides of the aisle for years. It's why it's hard for Democrats to stand up right now and put their hands on their hips and stop it, because they've been taking money from the crypto industry for so, so long.

And so many people out there don't invest in crypto and don't understand it. So they're saying, I hate that Trump's making all this money, but I don't get it. I'm not involved in crypto. It's not my business. I don't know that's the case because if crypto becomes so big, if people start gambling with it so much, we could end up in a subprime crisis again, right? Neither you nor I had subprime mortgages. Neither you nor I were buying five properties on margin in Vegas and Orlando and trying to flip them. Yet, when the subprime crisis blew up, it impacted everyone. So crypto right now, people are looking at saying,

I'm not involved in it. It doesn't matter. And Trump is becoming wealthy beyond his wildest dreams, but it could. Okay. So it's so much to unpack there. Can we talk first about, Trump's meme coin that he launched two days before the inauguration, that rushed up to $74 a share and is now hovering somewhere around last time I looked about 11. Can you explain that for people? This meme coin doesn't have any investment or intrinsic value, none. And it says it. If you look at the actual term sheet for it, you're just buying Trump fandom. You're buying a piece of the guy. And so you have a Let's talk about who would invest in it, who would buy it. The same people who were buying the Trump Bible or the Trump sneakers at the start, right?

The true Trump zealots who just want a piece of it. Then there's loads of traders who are just in it for a buck because they're saying, holy cow, I'm in it. I could make money off of this. Let's play ball. And then the third category of people who truly, truly want to curry a favor with Trump, right? Who could be some of the biggest investors in the meme coin or in Liberty World, right? He actually has an exchange.

He makes money on both sides. You can buy his meme coin or you can just transact and his exchange takes a commission, right? If you are one of the hedge funds who owns a majority stake in TikTok and you want to ensure that TikTok stays in business in the United States, you could be a massive investor in his meme coin and his exchange. If you are somebody looking for a pardon, if you're someone. somebody in the crypto industry, like a Justin Sun, the massive crypto guy who was facing serious legal challenges, those legal challenges have disappeared, right? The government is practically

no longer regulating or prosecuting anything in the crypto world. So this is how you can directly buy favors and invest in this guy and potentially get what you want. And the SEC seems to have kind of just backed away from this. I mean, once so zealous under Gary Gensler about crypto, they've just sort of withdrawn. Completely withdrawn. And so you know, have this open highway for a space. You know, you even have people that are in the crypto industry, you know, sort of legit people that are saying this isn't great because we do need smart regulation.

Now there's none and there's absolutely no legal enforcement of wrongdoing. And that's highly dangerous. I think back to Eric Trump at one of these conferences said or in an interview, he said, we got involved in crypto after January 6th when banks and other businesses, when we couldn't do business with them. So just unpack that for a moment. After reputable organizations said, you're not welcome here, given the insurrection that just took place, the crypto industry said, Come on over, the water is warm. So that should tell you something.

And it's interesting to me how many people are tuned out because crypto is obtuse. And listen, people are just trying to get their, you know, send their kids to school, get dinner on the table, live their lives. And crypto feels like it's over here. But where it's so dangerous is we don't know who is investing in this. We don't know what they could be asking of our president and our government. And that is a national security risk. Stephanie, just hang on a minute.

Hang on. Let's just break for a couple of messages from our sponsors. And thank you to our sponsors. We're back with Stephanie Rule. Is Trump a crook? Well, he's been convicted of 34 felonies, and he's avoided facing any jail time. Is he wildly unscrupulous?

I don't think that's an opinion. I don't think you'd have to have an overarching opinion to say that. You can talk to any contractor or subcontractor or investment. firm that had to do business with him for years and years. He would say he's a smart business guy. He knows how to do business in the street, but he's clearly unscrupulous. And you can see that by the dozens and dozens of lawsuits that he's faced over the years from counterparties that he didn't pay on contracts he had signed. He's a man that bankruptcy has crept behind throughout his career.

He's been shadowed by bankruptcy. It's walked parallel every time he's walked down the street. Is this his moment now? Is this actually, do you think, what motivated him to become president? Shame and anger and ego did. Remember, what was one of the biggest drivers? President Obama making fun of him at the White House dinner. Donald Trump doesn't like being shamed by others, right? One would think if you were wildly successful,

you wouldn't need to call People Magazine as John Barron. his alter ego and say, you know, you're one of the sexiest men alive. You're one of the wealthiest men alive. You wouldn't be hanging fake time magazine covers, right? Ego has driven him in many, many ways. But the one thing you cannot deny at this point is his success in that this is a person who against all odds won the presidency in 2016. And you could say, there's lots of reasons he won it, but yes, he won it. And then after being convicted of 34, four felonies, after beyond humiliation, after mishandling COVID in the most extraordinary fashion, was able to win the presidency again and now become a multi-billionaire. You cannot deny

that he's extraordinarily skilled and successful. However, all of it has been for his own personal benefit. And the risk right now is the future of our country and our democracy. And that's hugely dangerous. Wow. That's, I feel like that should be your campaign speech, Stephanie, and you should be running to lead the Democrats. Never. If any Democrat is listening to this now, please reach out to Stephanie rule immediately. Would you ever go into politics? Stephanie? That was an incredible stump speech. I would never. It is not of interest to me. I love my day job. I love my family. I love what I do. I wish you'd get back out there. This nickname that's risen for Trump over his tariffs, Taco, Trump's always chickening out. Have you actually heard people

using it, or is it just a media confection? Here's what's really funny. I have definitely heard lots of people using it. I know it is getting to Trump in a big, big way. How do you know it's getting to Trump? I've heard it from sources. Well, here's how. Because big, big investors who I talk to, who find it very funny because they believe it to be true. It was first coined in the Financial Times, a publication with a fantastic reputation that is read by every credible investor out there. But what's interesting is folks who I talk to who are laughing about it don't want to say it out loud. And they don't want it to continue to get under Trump. Trump's skin because Trump lashes out and doesn't like to be embarrassed. Well, it doesn't like to be made fun of either, right? He doesn't like to be made fun of. He's got no sense of humor about himself. It feels like, although when you talk to people who spend a lot of time with him, they actually

say he has. Yes, and they would say, you know, Gary, I remember when he was president the first time, Gary Cohen used to say, you know, one-on-one, Trump is really quite funny. I remember when I saw Trump at the Al Smith dinner and I talked to him for a moment. He is, right? He has like the quick one-liners. He's a performer. He is a showman. But here's what scared me over the weekend about Taco, that investors who I know who laugh about it, who are saying it, who know that it's true, want us to all stop saying it. Because they feel that we are on

such a tightrope with Trump and his emotions and what he'll say and do around trade. They don't want us to keep saying it because what you don't want while Trump is humiliated, him to say, I'm not a chicken. I'm not chickening out. You know, I'm going back to 150% tariffs. Take it. And so they actually like the Taco Trump, right? It's embarrassing. It's a headache. They like that suddenly when investors are ringing the White House off the hook, when Walmart and Target show up with the White House and say our shelves are going to be empty, or when big time macro investors call Scott Besson and say, look at the bond market. Things are going to correct. They like it that Trump is the taco guy. And so even though they believe it's true

and they're privately laughing about it, they don't want to go on record. They don't want to go off record. They want taco to disappear because they want the water to be warm in Trump's bathtub and him be floating around with his rupor ducky smiling. Because if he's embarrassed, he could do something dangerous or damaging on trade, and they desperately want it to go away. You know, last week, when the courts made that first ruling that Trump's tariffs were unjustified and he couldn't do it, I spoke to a source who said, Scott Besson is somewhere in his house on his knees saying, thank you, God, please let this be Trump's elegant off-ramp, where he can say, I wanted to do the tariffs, I wanted to bring jobs back for the working man and woman in America, but I couldn't. That

crappy, you know, judicial system, those crooked judges stood in the way. Like, there was this hope for that night that, like, great, this can be Trump's off-ramp. But no, Trump's all in and they fought it again and now they appealed it and said, no, the tariffs can stand. So when you're talking to business people, senior business people, CEOs, founders of big companies, important companies, how are they thinking about it? I mean, I feel like there are two groups. There's the group that goes and bends the knee and does it public.

and appeared on the dais at the inauguration. And they seem to have been continued to have struggled with Trump. It doesn't seem to have helped them in any way. And then there are the ones that refuse to be seen with Trump, the claim scheduling problems and would love to go to the White House. Thank you so much for the invitation. I can't do it right now. I'm about to travel or whatever.

What are you seeing in the first group of those who thought that they could do business with Trump but have in fact been roundly humiliated by him? I'm actually going to go to the second group. The second group isn't so proud or moral that they won't set foot in the White House. They're practical in that they look at the first group and they say, there's nothing you can give him. If you're running a massive business, there's nothing you can give him that guarantees he's going to do the right thing.

So they're watching the Tim Cokes or the Bezos or any of these guys and saying, well, they didn't get what they wanted? What could I possibly offer him right now to grease the palm? To me, the most interesting group is, you know, and I talked to lots of guys who voted for him or begrudgingly did, or even if they didn't felt like after he won, they were like, great, we're going to get the tax cuts, we're going to get deregulation. You know, they didn't like the former FTC chair, Lena Kahn, and they're like, go, go, go. The majority of them are furious, frustrated, or silent. The only And can I add another F there and frightened? Yes.

I would add frightened. Yes. Or fearful. Fearful. Fearful. Well, that too, right? I'm working on not casually cursing anymore, but you just walked me into it. Sorry, I've led you straight into it.

The only group that I can find that is still absolutely all in Trump are ones who are making an enormous amount of money, person. they are somehow in a bit, whether they could be in a security business, a private prison business, they're in the crypto space. Like they have a carve out for themselves that they are cashing in, cashing and cashing in. But I cannot find any big business leader or business investor who says what Trump is doing in total is great for the U.S. economy is great for the global economy. Okay. So you recently saw President Biden.

I did actually. How was he? I didn't interview him. I saw him at a high school graduation. I saw him at my son and his grandson graduated high school together. And my real takeaway was less about what Joe Biden said and did and more about what he didn't. There was no fanfare. His whole family was there. There was no fanfare. Joe Biden didn't speak. His family didn't speak. He wasn't even acknowledged at the event. And I think my giant takeaway was, wow, this is what, this is what, decency looks like, this is what a family coming to their grandchild's graduation is. They sat there quietly and didn't say anything. And I thought to myself, here we are at a time when everything is about a show and attention. And I can't help but think if a different person had a family member graduating, they might land Marine One on the quad. They might be throwing hats out. They might be speaking at the podium.

They might expect that when we all sat down, the whole. room would have had to salute them. And I just thought to myself the whole time, gosh, just quiet decency is maybe where we all need to get back. Because in this moment of just whoever has the most attention and the biggest microphone, whether we are talking about a social media influencer or a lawmaker, whoever has the mic is the one who's going to win. And it took me back to this idea that Democrats are in disarray. I'm not sure that they're in disarray. They're not in power right now. Donald Trump is in power, and Democrats, there's not much they can do. And I don't know that the quiet that we're experiencing means that they're flailing. It could mean that they're

getting their ducks in a row. And maybe we have to take ourselves out of this space where whoever is screaming the loudest, whoever is standing at the podium with the microphone is winning, I'm not sure that's the case, or I'm not sure that's the right way that we should all aspire for things to operate. I appreciate you saying that about President Biden, but I also wonder if, could that also be an indication of some remorse? Because I've seen presidents post their presidency, and there's always a sort of appreciation of the power that they ripple out still, even though they're no longer in power. There's always an excitement around being near that power.

Do you think it's possible that President Biden and the former First Lady are actually feeling remorse and some regret over how the whole thing has ended? I mean, you would think it'd be hard not to. Maybe. I mean, absolutely. Maybe, but all I can say is that day, the room was very, very excited to see them. People all wanted to talk to him and shake his hand and have their picture with him. And I thought he's received so much public scrutiny and so many attacks.

Maybe he would like all this attention that day. But I guess my just takeaway that day was, wow, this family is behaving like a family. It is the day to honor this 18-year-old boy and his grandparents and his cousins and and the aunts and uncles all came for them. And I totally hear what you're saying. And that could be the case. But on this day, when a room was all craning their neck, you know, excited to see them, they were sort of like, let's cheer on our grandson.

And I just thought, gosh, isn't it nice to turn the volume down? It is very nice to turn the volume down. It's very nice to have you on the podcast. I'm hugely appreciative. And I love the fact that you're just speaking flawless paragraphs. I mean, they just pour out of you. I wish you would run. I wish you would run for office because I think we need people with your experience and knowledge and understanding in office.

But Stephanie, thank you so much. And I should be tuning into the 11th hour as I try and do most evenings to hear your wisdom on what's going on. Thank you. Great to see you. Thank you for having me. That's why we love Stephanie Rule, because she speaks in fluent paragraphs. She's incredibly well informed. She speaks to all sorts of people, both in the administration and in Wall Street, to really understand what people think about Trump's economic.

policy and imagine being Scott Besson and having to go out there and defend it every day. Just imagine that. If you're having a bad day, think it's not as bad as Scott Besson's day. If you have enjoyed the podcast, please leave us a comment. Tell us who you'd like to hear from on the podcast because we're having such fun interviewing all sorts of people. Leave a comment. We really read them all, or at least we try to. And don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. Just go to the Daily Beast.com and subscribe for up to the minute. coverage on everything that's going on. And don't forget, be Beast. And this podcast was produced by Devin Rodgerino, Anna von Erson, and it was edited by Dan Jacobson. Want more great listens?

Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studed The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a daily beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts, as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to the DailyBeast.com slash membership slash podcast and sign up today.