The Daily Beast Podcast - TN Rep Gloria Johnson Rips Apart Huge Pro-Gun ‘Argument’

Episode Date: May 2, 2023

Almost-expelled Tennessee House Representative Gloria Johnson joins this episode of The New Abnormal politics podcast to talk about what the last few weeks have been like, a heartbreaking interaction she had with a third grade Girl Scout about gun control, and if she believes that racism played a role in sparing her from the fates of her Black colleagues, Reps. Justin Jones and Justin Pearson (spoiler: yes). She also has a major rebuttal to one of the biggest pro-gun “arguments” there is. Then, CNN’s S.E. Cupp joins co-host Andy Levy to explain why Tucker Carlson’s exit from Fox News has zero chance of changing the insidious ways of the media company. The two also make educated predictions on who Carlson’s replacement is likely to be. Plus! Andy and Danielle discuss Trump’s vile new low with a COVID lie as well as what Supreme Court Justice Alito is whining about now. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits pretty comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears.

What an excellent show we have today. Tennessee House Representative Gloria Johnson joins us to talk about the Republicans in Tennessee's attempt to oust her from the House over protesting gun violence, and the other ways the Republican supermajority has shown its true colors. Then we'll talk to CNN's SE Cup, who'll give us an insider's look on Tucker Carlson's ouster and who could be next in line to take up his time slot. But first, let's have some fun. Well, Danielle, it's a new week, and he's added again.

I refer, of course, to former president Donald Drumpf, who did an interview with Mark Levine, who was a Fox News host and other dumb places host. Trump decided to not only just straight up say that COVID was a lab, leak, which is not true. You can't say that, I believe most reputable epidemiologists, et cetera, still believe that the wet market is by far the more likely place where COVID came from. But, all right. He also pretty much intimated that the whole thing was a, the whole thing being COVID getting out into the world, was a Chinese plot to make Trump lose the election in 2020. First of all,

is weird because I am fairly certain Donald Trump doesn't think he lost the election in 2020. So I guess in his mind that there was this plot and it failed. Boy, I mean, you know, look, we know he's just an outright narcissist and everything has to be about him. But really, millions of people dead across the world and this was all done to get at him. I don't want to say a new low because it's probably not a new low and he'll probably surpass it by time this is being listened to. But man, this is pretty low. I mean, it's scary being inside of Donald Trump's brain. You know, like it's got to be a scary, dark place where one can believe that a global pandemic that shut down the world, that we're still rebuilding from

three years later, where millions of people have died, one million plus in the United States alone, was all a grand, like, I don't know, Austin Powers' like fucking film to get rid of Dr. Evil. It's insane, but so is the level of narcissism that Donald Trump has. Like, he believes, in all honesty, he is the son. And everything just revolves around him.

It is, it's wild. And it's wild to believe that this man who is currently in a rape trial is facing 34 felony counts, has two other indictments hanging over his head and has this level of self like unawareness is the frontrunner for the Republican Party. Like this man is running to become president of the United States again and has an entire party that is backing him. unflinchingly. It's like the rot is so fucking deep. The bottom is a black hole and we just live inside of this abyss because of Donald Trump, because of the Republican. I'm just, I'm in awe. And what makes me just so depressed about the whole thing is that there are families that will just never be whole again. There are people that left the medical industry altogether because of the weight that they were carrying at COVID's heights. We don't even have like a day of collective mourning in

this country to acknowledge it because of how the Republican Party led by Donald Trump politicize the deaths of so many people around the world and so many people in this country. It's just, it's wild. It's wild. He's such a fucking piece of trash. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Yeah. But Luckily, he has left no legacy in this country that will continue to screw us over for years. Anyway, let's turn to the Supreme Court. We have multiple stories about the Supreme Court today. So we're just going to put them all in a little section that Jesse, our producer, titles Scotis New Lows.

It's like an 80s musical montage, if you will, of all wrongdoing. It is. It is absolutely a montage. So I guess let's start with Sam Alito. Who is, he's very upset. He's very upset at people like you, Danielle, who he feels have been mean to him. Oh, I thought just black, but okay, keep going. Look, he's probably mad at you than me for unknown reasons. But he gave an interview to the Wall Street Journal that was as softball as you would expect it to be,

in which he claimed that all the attacks on the legitimacy of the court and all the people who are upset with the court, that this is a totally new phenomenon, and he said, we are being hammered daily, and I think quite fairly in a lot of instances, and nobody, practically nobody, is defending us. And it's like, first of all, the entire conservative media sphere is defending you. I mean, there are articles at National Review and places like that, letting us know that Clarence Thomas did nothing wrong. So, F off with that. And second of all, none of it is unfair. Sorry, buddy. The Supreme Court is being treated like the political institution it is. Guess what?

People are mean to political people. And that is exactly what you are. And on top of that, as Princeton's Kevin Cruz, a former guest on the new abnormal, wrote, Alito is completely wrong in saying that all of this is new. And he goes through a whole thing about, this has all happened before and will happen again. It happened particularly in the Warren court. Earl Warren got death threats.

There were billboards put up calling for his impeachment. Hugo Black, when the Supreme Court struck down state mandated prayers in public school, got, as Cruz describes it, he received enough angry email to fill 10 archival boxes. None of this is new. Absolutely none of this is new. And all of it is deserved. What is new is the brazenness of a grifting fucking Supreme Court. Now, it's not new that this body that is elected by a president who is elected based on their political ideology, largely, is a political body.

But the fact that these members, these justices that are supposed to be above reproach, like this was the idea behind the Supreme Court, they are the supreme body that is not looking down at society through a lens of politics. but they're looking at it through a lens of laws. And to know that they can be bought and sold with $500,000 vacations, we now know that other members, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, they're all taking these luxurious trips, whether they're funded by universities or they're funded by billionaires. And so when Lido says that nobody has his back, No, a lot of motherfuckers have your back.

They're very fucking wealthy, right? They have your back, your front, your top, and your bottom. You know, like they got you covered, bro. So you don't really need to be concerned with what us peasants are thinking. It's not like we have the power to remove you. It's not like we can vote you out. I'm in awe about how, what is it, Harlan Crow's family taxes have come out. And that since the Citizens United decision that just allowed dark money to flow into political campaigns, that their family contributions, the Crow family contributions went up.

Not 100 percent, Andy, not 200 percent. 300? Nope, not 300, but 862 fucking percent. Like, all of this is out in the open. And we're just supposed to pretend that this Supreme Court actually has our. best interests and the interests of the country in mind? Are we fucking kidding? Like, I feel like we're just being gaslit on another level these days. Like, we say, oh, let's call them in to a Senate hearing. And the Chief Justice says, nah, I'm good. Yeah. Now I'm good. Let me send forward the ethics that we

don't follow. But let me send it to you in a booklet form. What? It's testimony by PDF. I mean, that's where we are right now. My two favorite things about Alito is one, this is a guy who has a lifetime appointed job. He basically cannot be touched, except in a super extreme case, he can be impeached, but we all know that ain't ever happening. So this is a guy who is unbelievably powerful, has a job that is his until he decides and he alone decides that he doesn't want it anymore. and he still somehow manages to tap into this conservative grievance culture. Yes. It's just unbelievable.

Like, nobody is sitting prettier than a Supreme Court justice of any political stripe. It doesn't matter. You are in that job for life. You get paid a nice little salary. You obviously, as you alluded to, the perks are apparently tremendous. Mm-hmm. And you're sitting there complaining that the world is against you. It is unbelievable what the right can put in.

into their little grievance culture that they have, the same culture that makes it seem in their minds as if, you know, white Christian men are the most put upon members of American society. It's just unreal to me. The other thing I really loved about Alito's interview was he said that he has a pretty good idea who leaked the Dobbs decision overturning Roe v. Wait. Yeah, I bet you do, motherfucker. Mm-mm-mm.

Because, let's face it, it was you. I read that and I just laughed. I'm like, yeah, of course you know who leaked it. Because you did because you wanted to lock in, you know, any justice who might change their mind. And then, you know, they decided, oh, well, now I can't change my mind because it'll look like I'm bowing to public pressure. So I have to stick with going along with this decision. It's just unbelievable to me what these people get away with on every level. And there's this law school at George Mason University.

the Antonin Scalia School of Law that, as you alluded to, is giving all these trips to people and, you know, Gorsuch and Elena Kagan, I think it was even on the, you know, on the quote unquote liberal side where they basically, they go to Italy and places like that. They teach a class in the morning and then they're basically on a free vacation for the rest of the year. Look, if I went to George Mason, I would be returning my degree, I think, right now. Oh, okay. Relax. I would be so outraged by this. I would look at my diploma and think, my God, do I even really want this? And just be sick with it? Okay, Andy, I'm not returning my grad school degree. Okay? It is not my fault that I happen to go to the same fucking institution as this grifting piece of trash. Okay?

I'm just a black girl from the suburbs of Long Island, just trying to make her way in America. It's just so obvious. these days that we live inside of a caste system that we just don't want to name and talk about, where you can have billionaires literally trading our freedoms, like they're playing monopoly on a board. And you can have, you know, these justices that sit on high. Like, like everyone is above reproach here. No politicians can be called out. It took forever in a day to get Donald Trump indicted and we're still waiting on the federal government's decision to whether or not he's going to be indicted. All of these Republicans know that they can crime and grift and crime

and grift and get away with it and then pass laws that throw black and brown people and poor people in jail for life for the smallest infractions. But what they do has implications on the lives of 330 million Americans. It's just like, it's so sick. There was an article that I saw the other day that said, is our reality just too twisted for Black Mirrors next season? Like, have we just, has America jumped the shark? And my, the answer is yes, yes, yes, I'm beyond Black Mirror. I don't know what we're in, but like, I think that the show is done because our reality is just that fucked up. It's become a trope to say, oh, this was a Black Mirror episode. And look, I think before that, at least those of us who were old enough, used to say, this is like the Twilight Zone. I think this has probably always been the case.

And I guess it, look, it's a tribute to these shows that they were able to predict, you know, the state of the country, except usually on those shows, it's always like, you know, maybe not so much a Twilight Zone, but Black Mirror is always like, you know, it's the year 2070 or it's the year 2200. No, it's 2023. You got it right, but you were off by like a century because that's how fast, things go to hell now. I do want to say the Supreme Court, on a, not a more serious note, but on a more, I don't know, factual note or whatever, if I were to tell you that the Supreme Court has now agreed to take up an appeal from a herring fisherman in the Atlantic Ocean, you would probably think, okay, I'm sure this is important to the herring fisherman and, you know,

may have some national implications, but probably not one of the more major cases that SCOTUS has looked at. But you would be wrong, Danielle. You would be very, very, very wrong. Because this is a case that already court watchers and legal writers are going, oh my God, over. And because it has to do with something a doctrine known as Chevron deference, Chevron being the giant oil company. And there was a case decided by the court in 1984 that basically, the court basically said, look, if there's an ambiguity in a statute that is enforced by a regulatory agency, you defer to that agency as to how to implement that statute. And so it's called this Chevron deference. And this is a big deal because it has to do with a lot of,

we have a lot of federal agencies and we have a lot of times agencies do set pop, you know, they're given a mandate by Congress or there's, Congress says, hey, this is a law, you have oversight over this. And maybe the law isn't 100% clear. And so the precedent has been to defer. to the agency as to how to interpret those ambiguities. And again, this was 1984 decision. So this was, you know, 40 years ago or whatever. This has been one of those things that's long been considered sort of settled. And here comes the court now in this herring fisherman case saying, yeah, we're going to unsettle that. We are going to take up this case. The specifics of the case basically is that the National Marine Fisheries Service, which is a federal agency, under the law can put government monitors

aboard these fishing vessels to make sure that everything's being done above board. And the agency has said that as part of this, they have the right to force the fishermen to pay the salaries of these monitors. And the fishermen are saying, no, you don't have that right. You can put the guy on board, but you can't force us to pay for it. And so the Supreme Court is taking that up and Again, so this seems like a small case and it even seems like, maybe it's a little unfair that they have to pay for the guys. I don't know. But this is going to have huge ramifications.

And like I said, legal experts are already in a tizzy over this. And people are already, you know, I'm already seeing things saying, well, there goes another law school class that I've had my syllabus set for for 40 years. I'm going to have to throw that in the trash once the court overturns this if they do. So this is another big deal. And it's just another example of how. this court is not particularly friendly to precedent, which it's weird because it used to be that, you know, the conservatives were all about precedent and all of that. And then somehow they're not anymore, which seems weird to me, Danielle. I want to remind folks as you went through that really

important history lesson that nothing is safe. There is nothing that is safe. One, I don't understand how we have set up a bunch of laws that allow regulators to regulate the themselves, that allow police to police themselves, that there is just no real intervention and oversight. But nonetheless, I just keep wondering when we're going to get to Brown versus the Board of Education. I keep wondering when we're going to get to Plessy versus Ferguson. I keep wondering when we're going to get to these cases that overturns segregation

in America. And if folks think that I'm being hyperbolic, I'm like, just pay attention to what is happening. Pay attention to who owns these members of the Supreme Court and what their vision of America is. Like they're telling you out loud every fucking day. And so if you think, oh, that will never happen. I'm just like, stop saying it will never happen because it's happening. And it's happening on a regular fucking basis.

The fact that we brace ourselves for each Supreme Court session since Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump were able to steal the Supreme Court. and so many other federal. See, it's just, you know, we're in a wild fucking place. And it is truly, you know, as a person who lives at the intersection of multiple marginal communities, it is really fucking terrifying. Yeah. That there is going to be absolutely no recourse when every single right and voice is fundamentally just destroyed and erased.

And again, I will tell you, folks, remember, slavery was legal. The Holocaust was legal. Apartheid was legal. Denying women the right to vote was legal. All of these things were legal because they had judges who wanted to uphold white supremacy and patriarchy. That is where we are. Folks, I am very excited to welcome to the new abnormal. One of the Tennessee three, Gloria Johnson, who is a Democratic member of the Tennessee House.

of representatives representing District 90 and formerly District 13 who came to national prominence because of the Tennessee, Republican-controlled legislature that tried to boot her from being able to represent her district along with Justin Pearson and Justin Jones. Gloria wasn't expelled for reasons outside of racism. I have no idea what that reason would have been. And the other two members were returned for the time being to their seats. Gloria, I want to start off, and I, you know, I've seen you now do so many interviews, and I'm so grateful for the fact that the Republicans' actions in your state of Tennessee have catapulted the three of you to national prominence.

And I just want to get your thoughts on the explosion around your fight for gun reform and what the Republicans did to you and are continuing to do in the state of Tennessee. Yes. Well, thanks for having me on. And it struck a chord with people across the country and even across the world. I've heard from people in other countries that they've been paying attention. It's what happens when people's voices are silenced. I think there are a lot of people that are tired of this happening. I feel like the windows burst open and sunlight showed in on the house floor on how the last few years they've been running it by silencing any dissenting opinion. I don't really understand the philosophy behind not wanting to debate legislation that you're

bringing to the table. When I bring legislation, I'm ready to debate it for hours or days or however long it takes. But they do not even allow a challenge to their legislation because they have a supermajority and don't want or care to listen to. in-depth discussion of the bill, which would really benefit Tennessee citizens as they're learning what we are passing here in Nashville. What I've learned, and I want to talk about this with you, is that the major cities and represent part of Knoxville, their power has been taken away over the course of legislative sessions because of gerrymandering of districts. Can you talk about that how the cities that generate a lot of the economic wealth for the state have been cut up

in a way to not allow a collection of power, particularly from people of color and young people. Right. Well, so if you look at Tennessee's redistricting this last year before this, what you saw was in our congressional district, used to be Nashville was one district, and it was represented by a Democrat, Jim Cooper. And after redistricting, what they did was they created all these rural areas that kind of met in Nashville. So they split Nashville into three sections. And so each of those three congressional districts that they created, the bulk of them are in rural counties with only a portion of Nashville. So Nashville no longer has a congressperson to represent them. They are split three ways so that the majority of those districts are all rural, which is a huge

disservice to one of the top revenue bringers for the state. And so also across Tennessee, we have, it will be somewhere between 55, 45, 45, or 60, 40 as far as statewide vote, you know, with the higher number being Republicans, the majority being Republicans. But typically, we've got about 45% of the votes for Democrats. However, we only have 25% of the legislature of the House. Wow. And that is because of gerrymandering. So in Memphis, they did away with one of the seats in a black community. In Knoxville, where I live, we have five Republicans and two Democrats. They redrew my district to put me into the district. They drew just my block out of my precinct. And put me in the other Democrats district so that we would have to run against each other. It was a

predominantly minority district with a black legislator and I was not going to run against my colleague. And so I moved about six blocks into my old district that I had lived in for 30 years and ran again in the newly drawn district. It was about 60% of my old district and 40% of it was new. But they intentionally drew me out just by a few blocks in my precinct around my house. Wow. That's how targeted they have done this. And I really want people to hear that because oftentimes for those of us who are living in what we think right now anyway, are blue states. We look at red states and we say, well, these people just have to vote for better representation. The people just need to vote. And that's kind of a blue state folks way. of kind of shrugging off the manipulation of the map,

the manipulation of the vote, and ignoring what the Republican supermajorities are doing in these places to deny people their voice in their vote. And so just that explanation of you having to move six blocks in order to be able to run in your previous district is insane. Absolutely. And when people look at the legislative maps, I mean, it pretty much.

looks like a pretzel factory in terms of the way that they have drawn, and it's not just Tennessee, it's in states across the country, the way that they have drawn and manipulated the map to their own advantage to create these supermajorities. And from the outside looking in, you think that it's the people, the people in those states that have created these supermajorities, but it's not. Right. I mean, what we're doing is elected officials are to see. their voters rather than the voters choosing their elected officials. I want to talk about the shooting that happened at the elementary school. And for quite some time, Tennessee, if I'm not mistaken, had been loosening the gun laws

that remain on the books. And Tennessee, sadly, is not a stranger to shootings that take place. What is it do you think that was. different, if at all, different in what happened at the elementary school than what has happened before? Well, I think it was a little bit different in that this was the first, to my knowledge, private school, it's typically happened in public schools. This was a private Christian school. And quite frankly, a lot of our legislators have their kids in schools just like that. Our governor had his kids in a private Christian school. And I believe his wife talked.

at a private Christian school. So the closer to home it gets, hopefully the more real it gets to those people who don't have the sort of empathy to understand when it happens anywhere. It's horrifying and that children should not be dying in their classrooms. But when it's someone you know or people you know, people pay more attention, I guess. But, you know, overwhelmingly, Tennesseans across the state, regardless of party, want gun sense legislation like red flag laws and safe storage laws. For the last two sessions, I have carried just such bills, and they died in committee on a

party line vote. I'm a school teacher. I was present when a student was shot at school. I remember the terror on the kids' faces as they come running to my room and just finding out about what had just taken place. And that is traumatic for staff. and for students and for the families in the community. We're the only nation in the world that has this type of gun violence.

There's a lot we can do. Even a conservative state like Florida after Parkland passed a red flag law. Now, currently, you know, the governor is talking special session. It's been moved. It's not going to happen in May. It might be August or September. I believe we should do it before kids go back to school so that they feel safer. But the bill he's talking about specifically doesn't really have a lot of teeth in it.

And there's no way to determine if someone has actually been dispossessed of their guns to a third party. So it's a little bit of a problem. But when I ran last year in that new district, I polled gun laws and how the district felt about. I polled safe storage laws, red flag laws. They were overwhelmingly supported by Republicans, independents, and Democrats. And so what we have is a super majority listening to billionaire special interests, the NRA and the Tennessee Firearms Association, and not listening to the majority of the citizens of Tennessee. You know, what struck me, Gloria, during the attention following the shooting was how many young people took over the state capital? how many young people were walking out of their schools and marching.

Can you talk to us about the energy that you experienced firsthand from these young people literally marching for their lives? These young people who are going to keep it going. They're smart. They're savvy. They're organized. They're passionate. And they care deeply about this issue.

I grew up in a generation where we didn't. You know, a school shooting was not a thought in your head. And these young people have grown up without being the reality through their entire school career. And they're tired of being afraid in their own schools, as they should be. And they are not going to stop showing up and speaking up and making their voices hurt. And thank goodness, because they also energize the parents and the rest of the community. The young person's engagement in this, it creates a much larger energy.

We have hope where before there wasn't a lot of hope we could get something done. But I honestly have hope that these young people were going to keep this going and make sure that they continue until there is action. I even met with some third grade Girl Scouts yesterday. And, you know, when third graders are asking you if you make laws about guns and what can we do about that, this is serious stuff. And this is what, you know, their parents, of course, afterwards ask questions. People want to see something done and they want to see something done now because we do not have to live like this. There are laws that we can put in place while still protecting the Second Amendment. but the folks that are concerned about this, losing their Second Amendment rights, are not being realistic to what we're calling for.

And it's very clear in the Heller decision that there are limitations or restrictions we can put on gun rights. And it's time we did some. Past time. It is far past. You know, after every school shooting, I think to myself about the trauma that young people, that we are purposefully as a society, embedding in young people, like that we're saying to them, this is your norm. This is normal. We all grew up with fire drills, but active shooter drills is what your generations

and the generations that will come behind you are doing. That it's normal for us to shrug off the fact, as one of the Tennessee politicians had said that went viral, we're not going to fix this. We're not going to fix this. Or to say that, you know, the lives of young people are expendable and willing to lose a few each school year was another thing that I heard from another politician. And so, you know, when you sit down and you're listening to these third graders or you're going and you're listening to, you know, middle schoolers and high schoolers about their fears,

what do they say about their level of trauma in connection to the hopefulness that they have in their ability to make real change? Well, they, you know, they do not understand. And I get it. If you're a young person, how can they protect guns and not children? That is the question. That's what we're doing. We're protecting guns and not protecting children. And this from a supermajority in Tennessee who does a lot of things on the pretense of, quote, protecting children like banning books, ending drag shows. It's just outrageous and so hypocritical that where the children are dying, guns are now the number one killer of our children. and then they continually talk about, oh, well, criminals will get guns anyway.

We're a lawmaking body. Yep. I mean, why not have that attitude when it comes to robbery? Criminals are just going to rob people, so why have laws about it? Well, you have laws so people can get consequences. Mm-hmm. To act as if that is some sort of defense is so lazy and disingenuine. What other crime do we say, oh, well, criminals are just going to break that law.

law, so why have it? Start making sense, folks. They will say absolutely anything to protect guns. These people are so afraid of everything. I really sometimes wonder how they're able to leave their house. I know. Every day. I walk out into the world every day without a gun and I don't live in fear of people that are different than I or people who believe differently. And I'm a gun owner. My father was in the FBI. I have his gun that he used when he was in the FBI. I took the course to know how to use it. I shoot regularly so that I know what I'm doing and I'm safe with a gun and it's stored properly. And that is fine. No one's trying to take that away. What we're trying to do is make sure that guns don't get in the hands of people who are a danger to themselves or others and make sure people

store their weapons so someone else can't get a hold of them and commit a crime. You know, that's what we're talking about here. Everything that you say is so logical. And I recognize that I don't know as Democrats how we continue to fight logic with like fantasy and people who live in an alternate reality. I just, I honestly, it's mind blowing because you can lay out the polls and the stats, you know, and talk about the CDC's announcement of how young people are dying and lay that all at the feet of Republicans. And they just purposefully cover their eyes, put their fingers. in their ears and walk away. The last question that I have for you, Gloria, is one on race and racism, which we saw on full display as you were the only member of, you know, the now Tennessee

three that was not expelled. And the reasoning given was, I think that you didn't use a bullhorn. But to everyone with a brain and understanding the history of the United States, we know that it was because you were a white woman and the other two were young black men. Tennessee is also the birthplace of the Klu Klux Klan. And I want to get your thoughts on, it's a two-part question, how racism played a part in this decision-making and kind of the explosion of this issue to the national stage. And also, honestly, even though you are a white woman and you were not expelled and had to fight your way back into the legislature, how safe do you actually feel in your community and in your state? Well, I, you know, my dad always taught me to be cautious. I'm always cautious. I haven't felt

really in danger personally. And I don't know if that's my privilege or what it is. But I guess I feel like I'm pretty direct with people. And I try very hard not to say someone is a racist. but if you say that a law or a bill is racist or if you say that was a racist thing that you did, people say, well, you're calling me a racist. I'm calling out the thing that you did. We all have our biases. And what we need to be doing as long as you're working on those, then that's great. But they wanted to expel me too.

And even if they had expelled me, it was still racist in the fact that the way that they talked to and question my two younger colleagues was different than the way that they spoke to me. They weren't asking me to assimilate, to dress like them, and talk like them. I did not use the bullhorn. There were several things in there that they said, I did, but I did not. And so I called those out. I didn't do this, this or this. So this is a fraudulent document. I never apologized. And I stood with those young men because I believed in what. what we were doing. And there was no question, if you listen to how they were spoken to, there is no question that there was racism involved. You know, it was just a month before that,

I'm sitting in committee, in a criminal justice committee, where Republicans have a bill to bring back the firing squad and the electric chair. And one of the members, after I speak against the bill, another member in committee says, well, I like this. bill, and I want to sign on to it. And I think we should add hanging by a tree. Well, everybody knows that hanging by a tree is lynching. He was advocating for a hate crime in a committee in the legislature. It was horrific. He didn't say, you know, a gallows or anything like that. He said hanging by a tree, specifically. I have heard racist comments so often in that building, you know it when you hear and we have to start calling it out.

Folks can do better. And that is what that I'm hoping to do by bringing this out. Now, people are saying I'm being divisive. No, it's divisive to make those comments and continue to make them and not recognize what you're doing. You know, sometimes it can be more subtle. I'm a 60-year-old school teacher. I speak in a way different than other people. And so someone had come up to my desk, one of my colleagues,

colleagues across the aisle and see the way the way he's talking that's just not going to get him anywhere and it's like he's your equal right but it was like well he doesn't have the right to speak like that yeah what are you what you're talking about because I told him I said I support absolutely everything he's saying and he is telling the truth one glory I just I want to thank you today for your time thank you for the work that you and your colleagues are continuing to do in the state of Tennessee, thank you for taking on the national spotlight and using it to draw so much attention not only to the necessity for gun reform, but honest conversations about racism in this country and how we want to pretend that we have moved the needle further than we actually have.

But I think that when we are living in a time, when you have politicians that think that black people speaking out on issues is more dangerous than an AR-15 than we are in a best, bad place. So Gloria Johnson, thank you so much for making the time to join the new abnormal. We really, really appreciate it. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Nothing is more abnormal than the rise of the radical right. Fever Dreams is a daily beast podcast taking you inside the rights push to retake power from the MAGA acolytes to the straight up grifters. They recently released their 100th episode so there's no better time to listen. Head to beast.combe slash fever dreams to check it out.

Tucker Carlson is out at Fox and regular folks may be sick of the so-called culture wars. Joining me now with her perspective on all this is CNN commentator, New York Daily News columnist, and my dear friend, Essie, thanks for being here. Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah, you're sure. Sure, you're welcome. God, could you be less enthusiastic? I am so psych to be here. Let's get it. Thank you. We'll edit out the first one. Let's start with Tucker. Did you see this coming? Because I very much did.

not. No, it was shocking. It's shocking on so many levels. Not only is he the top rated star at the top rated cable news outlet. He's got a real fan base in ways that like you really haven't seen since like Bill O'Reilly. Fox had put up with so much of his stuff for so long, you thought, well, he'd have to kill someone. And maybe even then he'd be okay. Right, depending on who it was. If it was the right person, right. Yeah. So it was completely shocked. and I remember just I was in a car going home from work when the news broke and like eight people called at once to just be like, what? Oh my God. You know, and it really was a momentous shocking media moment. So obviously this is all conjecture. And as you said, he has a huge fan base and he'd gotten

away with so much. What do you think it was that was bridged too far for Murdoch? Let me just say, I don't believe for a second it had anything to do with Rupert's then-fiancee saying, Tucker was a messenger from God or any of the odder reasons I've seen, you know, raised as possibilities. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to pinpoint because it's almost like choose your own adventure. Right. There's the idea that he was badmouthing the network, bad mouthing executives. And you and I both worked there. That's a thing that that network does not abide. No. Very often. So it could be that. After Dominion, going into an election year where you're going to be covering Trump again and you were just sued and then settled for almost a billion dollars for

lying about the election. I don't know how someone like Tucker could cover Trump, right, and not run afoul the same kind of thing they were sued for. So I don't know, maybe it was self-protection and, you know, they're coming up against the SmartMatic case too and maybe there's more stuff in there. I don't really know because a few years ago, as part of another lawsuit against Fox that named Tucker, Fox's own lawyers said you can't trust what Tucker says. Right. That was their defense of Tucker. That he's not a factual, you know, he doesn't traffic in facts.

Right. You'd think that for a quote unquote news network, that would be fatal. It wasn't. So it's really hard to say what the thing was. Because if you look back at like Bill O'Reilly, right, he settled five sexual harassment lawsuits while at Fox. They were fine with it, right? just keep making the payments until they weren't, until suddenly they weren't. And, you know, it was, I guess, one too many.

I don't know what the line is for Fox. I'm not sure they know what the line is until they come across it. Strike six? Yeah, right. They have a strict six strikes law. Right. So I'm going to guess that since you wrote a piece that was headlined, Little Hope that Fox after Carlson will change, that you don't think there's much hope that

Fox after Carlson will change. I'm good at reading between the lines that way. You are and have always been, and you don't get enough credit for this. It's true. I don't. Thank you. You're very insightful. Yes.

And you really go the extra mile when you're trying to get to the bottom of something. I do. Yeah, I mean, for all the reasons I lay out in that column, and I will say thank you for reading it, because not everyone who interviews someone does. And they'll say, I didn't read it. Why don't you sum it up? Right. So thank you for taking one.

one and a half minute to read that column. No, because Fox has conditioned its audience over time, including while we were there, right, with like truthorism and birtherism, Fox conditioned its audience over time to care less about policies, principles, conservatism even, and certainly journalism, in favor of the conspiracies, the junk science, the lies,

the, you know, the white nationalism, all of that is what that audience is there for. And that's all they're there for. So if you suddenly decide, we're going back to conservatism, principles, policies, truth, facts, journalism, I think they are right in imagining their audience will leave and go to other places that are still doing that kind of stuff. So I think they are treating this huge firing as a clean break, right? They've done the thing they needed to do and they can go right back to doing more of what they've been doing.

Until I see, you know, a chastened Sean Hannity, a chastened Laura Ingram, a chastened Janine Piro, a chastin Maria Bart Romo, why would we think they're going to start doing anything differently? As a follow-up, I want to ask where these mythical places are that are still doing what you said and espousing sort of true conservatism. You can't find them. There is no platform for actual conservative policies and principles anymore. I mean, occasionally you can find it on like a page or two of National Review, but it's not being platformed at Fox by anyone, right? And that's not just the era of Trump. It's since Jonah Goldberg and Stephen Hayes and Crowdhammer left. I mean, that was the intellectualism that made Fox. Fox was mostly populist, right? But there was that intellectual

sort of anchor in that Brett Baer hour. And that's gone. And no one's doing it somewhere else. So they're not doing it on Newsmax. They're not doing it, obviously on OAN or anywhere else. So you really don't have that platform for good conservatism anymore because Fox and Trump jettisoned it and told people it didn't matter anymore. I find it interesting that you didn't include red eye in that group, but that's all right. I'll move on from that. In what group? In the group of, you know, the people who anchored the intellectualism at Fox. Okay. I'm joking, of course. Best guest Andrew Tucker's replacement will be. Jesse Waters. Yeah, that's kind of my guess, too. That's what I've been saying. Carrie Lake is my long shot.

Oh, God. I don't think she's likable. Well, neither's Jesse. Yeah. Here's the real answer, Andy, and you know this as well as I do. It does not matter. Whoever they put in that chair will do well with viewers because viewers are loyal to the brand. They will watch and love anyone that they put in a chair.

So it doesn't really matter, but I imagine Jesse will get that gig. Yeah, I've seen people suggest Tulsi Gabbard. This is obviously nothing but a guess. I think Waters will slide into the Tucker spot and Gabbard, will be given Waters old slot. I think it's a little too risky to put her in that prime slot, but I do think they are, to use a word that has become loathsome, but I do think they are grooming her. No, I think they are. And that's really risky because she's real unpredictable. Yeah, that's true. And obviously has no problem like switching sides and attacking her own

quote-unquote party. So that's a little risky that you might run afoul the viewers at some point with her. But it's also interesting. I mean, she's one of the more interesting voices on that network because she is unpredictable and doesn't just do the pure Trumpism. Yeah, I do think something we've learned is large paychecks sometimes make that go away, the unpredictability. Isn't that funny how that works? Yeah.

I wouldn't know. I won't name names, but people I used to work with. I wouldn't know. I've never had a large paycheck. Yeah. No, not you, obviously. Yeah. I'm talking about people who are still at Fox.

Any thoughts on Don Lemon being let go by CNN? I kind of assume you're maybe not allowed to talk about it. But if you are, feel free and if you're not, feel free to say I'm not allowed to talk about it. You know, I think CNN made the right decision is all I'll say. Okay, fair enough. Let's pivot to culture. You have a video up at CNN.com in which you argue that Americans sort of writ large may be getting tired of the whole culture war thing. Show your work.

I came across last week a bunch of similar sounding articles or clips. where people on the right were saying we might be over the culture wars, from Kellyanne Conway to Chris Christie, Chris Sununu, folks kind of scolding Ronda Santos in particular for going after Disney and fumbling that. And then a bunch of polls that showed the culture wars didn't rate as well as Republicans thought in the last midterm elections. And so this isn't completely a fact, but it was really the first time I had heard anyone on the right. saying the culture wars are not where we need to be going. And even Peter Thiel, who's a huge Republican mega donor,

has said he's not going to donate to any Republican primary candidate in the presidential because he's sick of the culture wars. I just think that's interesting because the culture wars have been the main entree for Republicans for the past, you know, six plus years. Right. At the expense of conservative policies, like we discussed. It's obvious to me and you that they weren't. working in terms of getting Republicans elected, right? Republicans lost the House, the Senate,

the White House, and multiple state houses. But it was definitely working at keeping the Republican coalition together. And clearly, everyone was on the same page to do culture wars. Because it wasn't just in red states. It wasn't just happening at newsmax. It was really the whole conservative ecosystem, right-wing ecosystem, was culture wars all the time. You know, it was Mr. Potato Head and green Eminem's and I mean, just ridiculous shit and book bans and abortion bans. Well, people are having some second thoughts about whether that's effective. It's six years too late, but good on you guys for doing math. There are a couple of things that concern me here, I guess, is that one, it seems more that it's real politic as opposed to, oh, we're actually the bad guys here.

Yeah, sure. So that concerns me a little. But the The other thing is, I guess the Disney stuff seems to me, Nikki Halley is not out there bashing any of DeSantis' educational stuff. Yeah, right, right. She's bashing him going after Disney, I think, because she probably correctly views it as a losing proposition. Well, she's also attacking his abortion ban. True. Which is interesting.

Yes. That makes her an outlier. Oh, it absolutely does, yeah. I guess what I'm sort of getting at is the term culture war itself sometimes bugs me. And here's why. Culture war implies that there are two sides sort of equally fighting this. But to me, for an example, a trans influencer posts a video of a partnership she has with Bud Light on her Instagram page or TikTok or wherever she did it. That's not a culture war. People driving her offline for several weeks, shooting up Bud Light cans, et cetera, that's a culture

war. Let me just stop you there. I get what you're saying, but you don't think Bud Light was trying to engage in the culture wars by having Dylan Mulvaney on their beer cans. It depends what you define as the culture war. Does that mean that gay and trans people wanting acknowledgement that they exist and the right to do so? Is that a culture war? Well, no, for sure not. But I think Republicans' extremism on this issue is giving some on the left permission to get pretty extreme as well because you don't notice it if, you know, the other side is so crazy. And I think what Bud was trying to do was profit off the culture wars. I mean, to me, there's no reason to put this person who I have some problems with, but certainly not her being

trans, or being a spokesman for products she probably uses, unlike this one, there's no other reason to do that unless you want to profit off of these. is culture wars because it was completely incongruous and tangential and irrelevant. Like, I don't understand how that partnership happened or why they thought it would appeal to their audience, just from a business standpoint. I think that was a clear attempt at culture war engagement. Look, I see what you're saying. And yes, I think it was a straight up business decision by Bud Light.

And a bad one. Well, I don't think they sort of altruistically or whatever word you want to use sat there and thought, we need to raise transvisibility. No way. No, I don't think anybody with at least half a brain thinks that. So anytime a company wants to, for whatever reasons, whether it's to increase sales or target a particular community, I'm just not entirely sold that that is a side in the culture war. I think we're saying similar things. I don't think it's a side, but I think it's engaging and profiting off of and exploiting culture wars that exist. And I think the right is probably 80% responsible for culture wars. This is not a binary fight.

But I don't think the left has avoided them. I don't think the left is like, we're just not going to engage in this. I think 20% of the culture wars are the left egging on Republicans and trying to tweak at them and get them to go crazy. I can buy that that's 20% or whatever. But I guess, again, my general stance on this

is that this is a largely one-side war, which I think you're agreeing with. You're saying it's 80-20. So, yes, you're right. We are, I think we're generally in agreement here. So can a trans person or a gay person not be made, you know, I don't even want to say a spokesperson because Dylan Mulvaney was not a spokesperson for Bud Light. This was a tiny little campaign. It's not like she was suddenly the face of Bud Light. Well, she quite literally was the face of Bud Light on their beer cans. Okay, not the sole face is what I mean. This was like. But for what reason? Listen, to me, some of this is a little like pornography. You know it when you see it. You know what it is. And there was no

tie in natural time. I mean, I follow Dylan Mulvaney on TikTok. And so I've been with her for all 365 days of being a girl. You know, I know the whole thing. I don't understand. I cannot make sense. Listen, she also did a campaign for Nike sports bras, right? Right. I get that. I understand that because you're a brand for Nike. You want to appeal to women. Dylan Mulvaney says she's a woman. get that connection and that tie-in and the point that Nike's trying to make. Bud Light, to me, is completely nonsensical. Totally nonsensical. It just looked craven and also, like, bad for your customers.

I don't, I don't, this is, why do your customers want this on their beer can? It didn't make any sense to me. And so, for me, there was no other reason than to spark a, you know, controversy or preen as some kind of progressive defender in the culture wars. I know what you're saying, but I don't think, to answer your question, if you're gay or trans or whatever, of course you can be a spokesperson, but I think it should have a relevant tie-in to the product. Otherwise, I really think it's just like shameless culture war baiting. Okay. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. And I think we'll have to leave it there for time. But Essie, thank you,

as always, for coming on and being an interesting person. And you're one of my favorites. Well, you're one of my favorites, too. And I love this new era where you are the interviewer. It's you're really good at it. No, you're really good at it. And so it's a pleasure to come on and just have a great conversation. You don't get to do that everywhere. Thanks, Sese. Danielle Moody. Andy Levy. Who is your fuck that guy to start us off on this glorious week? Not only is it a glorious week in America, Andy, it is also the beginning of a new month. It was hard. It was a hard decision.

You stole my first spot that I wanted and I won't give it away, folks. You'll just have to hold tight. But I said, oh my God, however, how could anybody top that asshole that you're going to talk about? But wow, Representative Kerry Seekins, Crow from Montana said, hold my beer and my purse and my morality. So she is the sponsor of a bill that would rob transgender youth of the ability to use medication to continue on their gender affirming health care path. What this woman said on the floor, Andy, I cannot imagine being married to this woman, having this woman inside of my family, let alone having voting voting vote. for this to say that she is like the devil would be to give the devil a break. Yeah.

But this is what she had said. When provided with the information and the real life statistics that denying transgender children, youth, equates to essentially a skyrocket of attempts at suicide. And these are known facts. These are known stats that without the ability to be. able to live inside of their bodies that they will rather die. This is what Carrie Seekins Crow said in response to that, whose daughter apparently had had suicidal ideations for a few years. I prefer my transgender daughter commit suicide rather than allow her to transition. There are no

words to follow that kind of statement. But just to really put a face on this monstrous, this cruel, this vile, inhumane political party is that sentence right there. There is no debate with these people. There is no heart or mind, frankly, to change. with facts and statistics or real life stories. Because they themselves have said now, because she is the Republican Party and the Republican Party is her. I would prefer my transgender daughter to commit suicide.

I would rather her be dead than allow her the dignity of a transition. I, Andy, let me tell you something. This woman, this piece of trash is my fuck that guy, fuck this party into perpetuity. There are no words for this kind of immoral, disgusting, despicable, hateful type of person. Yeah.

I struggle to come up with ways to not call people evil because that just seems so, you know, black and white or whatever, but this person is evil. And I mean, I don't know how old her daughter is now, but if she's under 18, I don't. would fully support getting her out of that household. Part of what she said, what she said, quote, someone once asked me, wouldn't I just do anything to help save her? And I really had to think. And the answer was no.

No. That is literally job one as a parent. Mm-hmm. Is to keep your child alive. You can't even do that or you're not willing to do anything to do that. Like you said, there are no words. and we see this more and more every day. You know, we've talked about this before.

I struggle. I go back and forth on whether it's like, well, it's not that these people didn't think this before. They're just, they're like emboldened to say it out loud now. And we've talked about that, how there's no such thing as the quiet part anymore that everything is just out loud. And the bad side of that is we have to listen to this stuff. And trans people have to listen to this stuff and know that there's this woman out there

who feels this way about them. But the upside of it, I guess, is, We know what this woman thinks. And we can, I want to be very careful with what I say here. We can deal with that accordingly, as opposed to just wondering if that's what she believes. And so I don't know. I struggle with that. I go back and forth on which way was better.

But just an awful human being. And I have to say, as much as you were mad at me for, you know, for taking the fuck that guy that you also want it. I think yours is worse. Yeah. Just a horrible person. Yeah. Yeah. So, Andy.

Yeah. I mean, you're just saying now that you can't top this. I don't think I can. With your fuck that guy. But I don't know. I want you to give it a go. Who is your fuck that guy this week? Yeah.

It's pretty bad. It's the governor of the state of Texas, Greg Abbott. Over the weekend, there was an absolutely horrible killing, mass killing in Texas, where apparently a guy was firing his, I think it was a rifle. His neighbors were basically like, hey, can you stop? You're keeping the kids up. You're scaring the kids. His response was to murder the entire family.

Yeah. So they're looking for this guy. And Greg Abbott announced a $50,000 reward for anyone that can find him. Here's what he did in this statement. He referred to the five dead people as, because he couldn't help. himself. He said, I've announced a $50,000 reward for info on the criminal who killed five illegal immigrants Friday. Yeah. What the fuck is the point of that? I don't even think from some of the reading I did, I don't even think that's accurate. It's not. But even, but I don't even like,

yeah, I care that it's not accurate, but that's not the point. Because the point is, even if it is accurate, why, why is that of any importance here at all? And apparently the guy who shot them, well, again, this is according to the statement. So I don't know if it's accurate. But apparently he was in the country illegally. I guess that could raise the question, you know, why was he able to get a gun so easily, Governor Abbott, in your great state? if you're so concerned with the legality of people's, you know, right to be here, why are you letting someone get a gun who is not here legally? But again, it's just you have five victims here.

We have stories of two women, I think it was, being found dead, lying on top of children trying to protect them. Yep. And you have to categorize them as illegal immigrants, which is just, I heard, you're fuck that guy, so I don't want to say you can't get any lower than that because I think wanting your child to commit suicide rather than transition is, it's probably a little lower than that. But man, just what is going on here? This is who we are. This is who we are as a people. And I know that we're not all like that, not all Americans, you know, hashtag not all Americans or

whatever, but there are way too many people in this country who think like this idiot does. I saw this tweet. I put this. I know you think I stole this from you, Daniel, but I put it, I put it in. I put it in over the weekend because I saw it. And I was like, oh, I have to talk about this. I can't wait till Monday to bring this up. I was, I saw it. I was just like my jaw dropped. And I was like, I cannot believe you just did that. And I'm at the no words point to. so I'm going to stop and let you finish us off here. I will just say that I pray that there is a special place in hell for these people that is waiting, waiting with their names on the door to look at the horrific murder of human beings and not see a family,

not see a nine-year-old boy that lost his life because he watched his mother get shot and ran to her aid only to be shot dead in his tracks. That is what his father said to reporters. I just want to shout out, and I don't even know the sheriff's name, but the sheriff of that county got on television in a press conference and nearly broke down and said, I do not care what status these people who lived, this family who lived in my county have. They lost a child. We lost a child and we should care more about that than anything else. This is not okay.

This was a white male sheriff with a American flag tie on and a cowboy hat that was in tears in front of microphones doing what the fuck that governor should have done. We are in a really twisted, dark place in this country where you can speak the way that our two fuck that guys did and have a job and go up in the polls and fundraise off of your hate. We are truly, truly in a dark, twisted fantasy of the Republicans making. And I'm just, you know, I'm sick. I'm sick. Well, and that's the thing. There's always going to be us and there's always going to be us.

and there's always going to be, you know, a large number of people who are horrified by stuff like this. But until these people are held accountable by horrified members of their own party, it ain't going to stop. Like you said, until they see that Greg Abbott makes a statement like this and sees his poll numbers in Texas plummet, and particularly his poll numbers among Republicans in Texas, until the day when that happens, it is just going to get worse. until that Montana representative, until the same thing happens to her, they're not going to stop. They have to pay a political price for things like this in order for them to stop because they are just letting whatever the equivalent of a freak flag is for horrible people. They're letting that fly and it's working for them. The only cure has to come from their people, from their party.

because let's be honest, Greg Abbott couldn't care less what you say. He couldn't care less what I say. Not only do we not live in Texas, we're not people who, if we lived in Texas, would ever vote for him. It doesn't matter to him. But it will matter to him if he turns around and like a week from now, his poll numbers have dropped drastically. And it's because even Republicans who are like, holy shit, dude, what is wrong with you? And unfortunately, I won't hold my breath. Yeah, I don't see that happening.

So anyway, fuck that guy. Yes, all of them. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of The New Abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend and keep the conversation going. This podcast is a Daily Beast production with production by Jesse Cannon and Seamus Calder. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at thedailybeast.com slash podcasts.

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