The Daily Beast Podcast - ‘Trump Brazenly Preyed on Me as Epstein Watched’

Episode Date: August 5, 2025

Stacey Williams, a Sports Illustrated model who briefly dated Jeffrey Epstein in the early 1990s tells Joanna Coles her story—and her astonishing encounters not just with the pedophile, but through him with Donald Trump. Williams reveals how a much older Epstein made a twisted boast that he had "prized" videos of her naked which she had no idea he had made. And she tells how he took her to Trump's Fifth Avenue office where a "brazen" Trump groped her. Trump's campaign denied her allegation when it was first made. But she tells Coles, "I know there are women who have interacted with them, who haven't come forward, who have anecdotes to share that confirm their behavior and their friendship." Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Everything Donald does is hidden in its brazeness. You just do it right out there and everyone goes, well, that can't be happening because it's totally wrong and he's doing it right in front of everyone. I'm Joanna Cole, Chief Content Officer of the Daily Beast and this is the Daily Beast podcast. I hope you're listening or watching us on YouTube and if you are, feel free to share it with all your friends, share it with your contacts, book. And don't forget to leave us a comment. And I know, I know I was misusing the word myopia last week. as in myopic viewers of the Daily Beast podcast, might notice the set behind me has changed.

That's because we're about to unleash a whole new load of podcasts on you. But of course, I was misusing the word myopic. It means nearsightedness. I was using it to mean keen-eyed observers. My bad. Anyway, our last podcast, we had Michael Wolf on. And just as we were ending our conversation, we learned that Gillen Maxwell had been moved

after a day and a half conversation with Todd Blanche, Donald Trump's former personal lawyer, but now number two at the Justice Department, are you still following? I think you are. Had been moved from federal jail in Florida to basically a summer camp in Texas. It's a minimum security jail. She has a relative in Texas. She's in there with Elizabeth Holmes. The Theranos fraudster on Earth can breakfast be like, I just can't imagine,

or maybe they get together in the library and discuss how they were both wrongly convicted. her would love to hear those conversations. Anyway, today we're talking to Stacey Williams, who is a model who really was in the modelling industry in the 90s. And you will remember that Michael Wolf is often talking about the sort of model era. It was really peak model in the 90s and how models had this sort of special control, men were fascinated by them. They were trophy girlfriends.

And Stacey talks about her dating life with Geoffreyette. and then the day that he took her to drop in on Donald Trump and what happened, she alleges, when they casually went to Trump Tower. It's a fascinating story and it shines light on the friendship between the two men that so many people have commented on. And of course, we saw the letter in the Wall Street Journal from Donald Trump, wishing Jeffrey Epstein a happy 50th birthday. Anyway, we have no time to waste.

is here and let's get into it. And what I wanted her to start with was context about that modelling era, what it was like being part of it. And then what on earth it was like to date Jeffrey Epstein, the most diabolical man of the last 25 years. Stacey Williams, very pleased to have you on the show. Obviously, I remember your sports illustrated covers. we have spent an inordinate amount of time on this podcast mystified by why Donald Trump is so anxious about the Jeffrey Epstein story. And one of our regular contributors, Michael Wolfe, talks a lot about understanding the relationship between the two of them, which particularly flourished during the 90s in the model era.

You were a model and you knew both men. You dated Jeffrey Epstein. you had already met Donald Trump. And I would love to hear from you first how you got into modeling, because it was many young women's fantasies to be a model. And then tell us about the life of being a model in the 90s. Well, you know, I think my career hit its peak in the 90s, but I actually moved to New York when I was 18 years old in 1986.

So that's when it was right after high school graduation. I was on the first thing smoking to New York. And so, you know, when I arrived, it was, you know, think about the sort of social landscape of that period in New York. I mean, the industry was riddled with a lot of carnage from AIDS. It was actually quite a devastating time because, I mean, every day I'd go to work in a different, yeah, I'd find out different hair or makeup artist or designer someone had passed. So it was, yeah. Stacey, just stepping back, how did you know you're going into modeling? Because not everybody can be a model.

Yeah, so, well, you know, I think by the time I was like, you know, in 9, 14 years old and I was 5.11 and weighed like 120 pounds. People were like, oh, you look like a model. You should become a model. You know, I think there's just that standard like you're tall and skinny. You should, you know, that idea that indicates. You should be a model. and I heard about it a lot. It was confusing because I think,

and a lot of models will share this. You know, I was sort of being ridiculed at school. I was called olive oil. I mean, I wasn't, a lot of us are particularly gawky as teenagers, but somehow that translates really well in fashion. So I don't think I totally bought into it that I could have become one. And then, you know, basically a former model from Philadelphia saw me at the mall. I mean, we're also to be on Gen X, right?

So I'm hanging at the mall outside the Orange Julius. and this former model saw me and said, you know, you could make money, you know, like you could do model, you could work for department stores in Philadelphia. And, you know, I was working, I was working as a janitor and in a fast food restaurant making $3.35 an hour. And I went down to Philly and I got booked right away for a John Wanamaker, which is like a local department, Pennsylvania department store from back in the day. And I worked for them and I think I got $1,200 for the day. And I was like, hmm.

Wow. You went from the janitor to $1,200. And I remember the last check I got that overlap. So I got the last check from the fast food restaurant. And then a check from the department store had come in. And I think I'd worked to like 30 hours or something in the fast food place. And it worked out to be like $45, you know. And then that big $1,200 check came in from, you know, having fun in a studio in Philadelphia and people doing my hair and makeup.

And I thought, hmm, I think I know where to spend my time or, you know, what to pursue at this point. So you moved from Philadelphia to New York? Yeah, so the agencies in New York somehow saw photos of me from Philadelphia. And some photographers had sent them up to agencies there. And they started calling and saying, will you please come in and meet with me? And I got signed by an agency called Zoli at the time. I was with them briefly. And then I got a lot of calls from Monique Pilar at Elite, at Elite,

who she was the vice president of elite models under John Casablanca, so I went there and I was with elite for many years in New York. And elite was really the elite of the modeling agencies, wasn't it? I mean, it seemed to have everybody. Yes. And then, you know, they all have satellite agencies. So there's elite Paris and, you know, elite Munich and all of these agencies. So you were traveling around the world modeling, and what were the kind of men that you came across doing this,

including the photographers and the makeup artists, many of whom I get are gay, but some of them are not? You know, we were shit magnets. Young, pretty teenage girls. What kind of men do they attract? So, yes, there were Saudi princes, there were very wealthy bankers. There were politicians. You know, I think it's not that different than what it is today in a way, you know.

So, yes, powerful, wealthy men. who liked Arm Candy were part of our orbit, rock stars. Right. But I think it had even more kudos back in the 90s because there was also the sort of, there was the excitement about the supermodels, Kate Moss, Naomi Campbell, Cindy Crawford. Nowadays, I think it's shifted a little bit because of the influences. and models like celebrities have become more democratized. But at the time, it felt like you were an elite forced,

didn't it, the most attractive women. Oh, the business is unrecognizable now. I mean, every now and again, I'll speak to someone, an agent or a booker I've known from back in the day. And they're like, it's just, you know, it's about clickbait now. Nepo babies and clickbait. But most of us were just, you know, girls from very normal middle American. Midwestern kind of experiences

who'd been discovered just because we had a certain look that worked and enabled us to procure work for our image and we were sent, you know, to New York

and it's totally different now. Now it's, you know, you have to build a following. And as you said, it democratizes it a bit, but the middle's fallen out, you know? So you could be totally unknown, like every other industry, the middle's fallen out, right? So there's like a handful at the top making a fortune. And then there's a million down below, you know, maybe hoping for one or two jobs or calling themselves models because they have a certain number of Instagram followers.

I mean, it's completely changed in the digital era. But I was going to say, you could have, you know, a really lucrative career, just shooting. Spiegel and J.C. Pennings and Sears back in the day of catalogs, I have friends who bought up, you know, tons of real estate just doing that, and you wouldn't recognize them, you know, outside of the industry. Right. So there you are. You're in New York. It's your six-foot tall. You've got an incredibly glamorous career. You're starting to do the Sports Illustrated cover. What was your dating life like? I don't know if I dated, you know. I was young. I was pretty damaged.

I didn't really date much. I'm certainly not going to mention names, but I was more, I was someone who went from relationship to relationship. I didn't do a lot of dating in my 20s. But, you know, the men, the men were around. When I, when my parents dropped me off in New York with my, you know, Kmart suitcase in the fall of 86, the agency sent me down to the model. apartment and was greeted by my roommate. She was, I think, from Colorado. She was 15 years old, and she was holding a gin and tonic. And she said, oh, my boyfriend's going to take us out tonight. He's going to take us to a club. It was Nells at the time, and a great club. And he showed up. He was 40 years old. And then we got into the club, and his friends were circling me, and they were all, they were all easily late 30s, early 40s. And I was just very confused. But then, you know, you're young, so you go, oh, you just immediately normalize. Oh, well, this is just the way it is.

This is how it is, and I roll with it. I was just so thrilled to be there. I loved New York so much. So when did you first meet Donald Trump? And when did you first meet Jeffrey Epstein? First time I met Donald Trump was at a taping of Saturday Live. I used to hang out there. I was friends with some of the cast.

And I'd go to tapings. It's a really fun thing to do on a Saturday night in New York. And he was there with Marla. And that was the first time I met him. And did you have any connection with him? I was uncomfortable. Go on. He was, you know, extremely flirtatious.

She was looking straight ahead and watching the show, and he sort of turned his head and leaned over and was, you know, raising his eyebrows and doing things like that. Okay. And then how did you meet Jeffrey Epstein? I met Jeffrey when my agent, which at this point was next, and it was Faith Kates, the owner, she was very good friends with Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump.

And she introduced, the introduction came through her when she took a group of us to a dinner on the Upper East Side in a restaurant and Jeffrey was there. And it was during the Clinton Gore election. So someone prompted, probably Jeffrey is my guess, but I don't remember, someone prompted a conversation about the election. And I got very excited because, I mean, how often are you at a model dinner and someone's bringing up? something substantive to talk about and I've always been a bit of a political junkie. So, yeah, Jeffrey, you know, looked at me and he didn't condescend and he had a very straightforward conversation with me about the campaign and I remember appreciating that because it was very rare that men in those circles would ever have a conversation with me about a

substantive topic without mansplaining or condescending. And I think that's why I got a little interested. And so what was it like to date him? Yeah, it wasn't really dating, you know. It was very odd. Basically, it was a period of maybe four to five months. He didn't like to go. He didn't like to go to restaurants.

He said he didn't like humanity. He didn't like, I used to joke I was going to make him go on a subway ride someday to force him to be amongst the peasants, you know. He liked his very insular, you know, giant browns, in his fancy office. He had the house in Palm Beach, and then he would be transported to and fro in airplanes and limousines and things like that. So the times that we got together really revolved around meeting at the Brownstone and taking walks around the neighborhood, mostly. having tea in the room that the butler served.

You know, Jeffrey had this obsession with that Zabar's bread with all the yummy walnuts and raisins in it. I would meet there in the afternoon. We'd have tea. The butler would come in. It was actually like a tray. Like central casting for a butler. The artifice was kind of funny in his place. It was like a little boy with too much money, like acting out or being performatively rich.

It was kind of funny. But yeah, so the tray would come in and he, there was, he, Jeffrey had a thing about that Zabar's bread, which is that yummy, raisiny walnut bread. And he, he seemed to think it was important to let me know that, you know, you had it FedEx when he would travel because, because it was so important to him, which is like, you know, the most obnoxious, like, self-indulgent thing. But, like, I think he thought it was impressive, you know, that he has bread, his favorite bread, flown to wherever he is. I remember that story about that. So that's what we would do. We would have tea. We'd, we'd, um, I spent the night there a couple of times. Um, I, we took walks in the neighborhood. Um, and that's it. We didn't go to restaurants. We didn't, you know, the second time I met him after the dinner was at the Christmas party in the Plaza Hotel in the presidential suite or one of

the big suites there that Donald threw. And there were a lot of celebrities. Um, and, you know, athletes and people like that and Jeffrey was there and that's where we really connected and I gave him my phone number. That was the second meeting. So you would be a trophy girlfriend for someone like him? I guess so. Yeah.

I mean, but he wasn't parading me around in public you know, so perhaps I served another purpose you know. To be honest with you also, and it's this is hard for people to hear but you know, he genuinely liked me and we genuinely genuinely had good conversations.

He was insane and a creep. And, you know, once the data points lined up, I told him he was extremely unwell and to stay away from me. But, you know, he, we, we had some enjoyable conversations. And I had been practicing yoga at that point for many, many years. Yoga meditation, I started on my 19th birthday and it's still a part of my life. I owned a studio here in Los Angeles for 25 years. And Jeffrey was very interested in it. One time one of the studios where I practice regularly called me and begged me to teach a class because they were short.

And they said, like, you know this inside and out and we don't have anyone else. And I said, of course, you know. And he actually came to the class and did it when I taught. And that was the only time. Was he flexible? Not really. He was not very flexible. Okay.

And I'm going to ask you something which is, it's a slightly odd question to ask you. But it's sort of relevant in a way because one of the things that Gillen Maxwell talked about him after she dated him was, that he had this insatiable sexual appetite. Is that something that you observed? No. Mm-mm. No, it was, we didn't have a very sexual relationship. I mean, yeah, it's, you know, and looking back and knowing now what we know about him,

I was probably too old, maybe. I don't know. So tell us about the time that he takes you to visit Donald Trump. You're walking down Fifth Avenue and he looks up at Trump Tower. Um, yeah, so we went on one of our walks and we're heading down fifth and he was talking about, he always talked about Donald. That was, I don't, I can't name another friend that he ever mentioned. Um, he spoke about him regular when we had contact pretty, pretty consistently. And so he was sort of ever present in those conversations and in those months. Um, and so we took a walk down fifth and he mentioned, oh, you know, Donald likes you said. much or he's such a fan or I don't know whatever let's stop by and see him and that was kind of a normal thing to me because I knew at that point how close they were what good friends they were

that wasn't the first time I'm hearing you know about the degree of their connection where it's normal or comfortable to just stop by his office the middle of the day so I said oh all right okay let's stop by and Donald came out of his office right outside of in sort of the waiting area and started groping me while the two of them continued having a casual conversation and Donald had an assistant who was sort of walked back and forth a couple times and they did introduce me to her at one point I will never remember her name but Donald is groping you in front of Jeffrey as they are continuing to talk yes yes just moving his hands sort of up and down my body and like smiling at him and

Jeffrey's filing back. And I don't remember specific. It was, I think the conversation oriented around me and my career. You know, Stacey's on fire, blah, blah, blah. And what was Jeffrey doing at this time? He was engaging in the conversation and just looking at Donald. He didn't, I didn't read any kind of reaction when it was happening. And was that, because that feels very odd for a man to stand with his girlfriend,

talking to another man who is groping his girlfriend. And you've said that he was groping your breath. He had his hands all over your buttocks. He was just wildly inappropriate with you and entitled. I don't know, Jeffrey, I don't think either of us thought. I didn't think him as my boyfriend and vice versa. I mean, we were dating. We had, I would say, for a period of four months, almost daily contact.

Most of it was the telephone. And so, yeah, the incident is completely insane. But from the boyfriend point of view, I don't think it brought up any feelings of jealousy. I think he expressed rage to me right afterwards. I wanted to talk to you about that. What did you do in the moment when this was going on, when Donald Trump was allegedly groping you, what did you do? I froze. I just froze. And I was just confused because they were continuing to talk. So as if nothing's happening. And so, you know, everything Donald Dunt does is hidden in its brazeness. You just do it right out there. And everyone goes, well, that can't be happening because it's totally wrong. And he's doing it right in front of everyone. So therefore, it can't be happening. I mean, that's what went through my head at that point. It was just utter confusion. And for me, to,

to be that frozen when I had a rep for really being a bit of a street fighter and really pushing back in studios when photographers were inappropriate. And I mean, I was reprimanded for it by my agencies. They'll be so difficult. You know, you don't have to sleep with them, but at least make them think you're going to sleep with them. And, you know, all this game playing that had to go on for these tiny egos. And so, you know, I, and I was really combative. And so for me to free, you know how masterful he is in a way to pull that off. Well, and your remark about his brazenness and it happening in plain sight and people not acknowledging it is, I think, a really valid one.

So what happened after you left the building or after you left Donald Trump? After we got into the elevator and I picked up, I looked at Jeffrey, he would make eye contact with me and he had a really enraged look on his face. He was seething. His whole energy was different. And then by the time I get out and on the street, we got out on Fifth Avenue, he just turned and started yelling at me and said, why did you let him do that? He just kept repeating it. Why would you let him do that? And he really, you know, there was a, there was an edge to it that was also very shaming and belittling. And I remember standing there thinking, like, I was starting to come back into my body and I thought, why did I? I was so confused, you know. And then I went home and we went

separate ways and it wasn't long after that that I stopped seeing him. And when you think about the incident, did you think that he had set it up with Donald Trump? Was he trying to gaslight you outside? Did he genuinely not understand why you hadn't pushed Trump away? Or do you think that he had set the whole thing up? I think he was confused. I think he was confused. I think he thought, because I told him all of these stories about guys I'd, you know, beaten up on the streets in Paris and Maste and getting in trouble with my agencies for not pretending I'm going to sleep with disgusting Vogue photographers. And I think somehow he thought he has like, oh, this one, you know, this ornament is actually one that fights back. You know, let's put it to, let's test,

let's test my, let's test this right here and have some fun. Stacey, just hope. for one second, we're going to take some abs. And we're back with Stacey Williams talking about her modeling career. When you split up with him or when you stopped seeing him, how did you tell him? It was a phone call and I said, look, you are extremely unwell. You need psychiatric help. And, you know, again, I'm like basically a team. teenager emotionally intellectually in a lot of ways.

But, you know, if I could figure that out about him after a couple of months, all these people that for years have surrounded themselves and gone to dinners there, dinners there, whether they're women or men, whether they were abusing underage girls or not, I just, that's where I get very confused. I'm like, I'm this kid right out of, you know, like I said rural PA and it took me a few months to say, oh, yeah, like you are extremely unwell. get away from me, don't come near me again. I think there are a lot more people who could have done that.

I don't understand why that didn't happen. And what was his reaction when you did that? Well, this is what's interesting, and it's hard for people to grasp, but he actually choked up a little bit. He was upset and said, oh, okay, all right, all right. And he just, he really, it was so odd. It was just so odd because it wasn't really a relationship. And he was so extremely off in so many ways. clearly very compartmentalized.

What were some of the other ways that he seemed off to you in terms of, I take the incident that you allege happened at Trump Tower. What were other things that made you realize he was a bit off? You know, there are more details of things that happened that I'm not comfortable sharing that would solidify this. Can you give us? the clue as to what kind of things? And he liked to intimidate.

He liked to send out kind of subtle messages and threats to sort of signal rather than be direct. So there was just something very, very dark and twisted, and I couldn't see it all. I couldn't understand it all.

There were people who warned me. I was on a trip. I was shooting a catalog in St. Bartz with some other supermodels. And one of the very well-known models, she said, you're dating Jeffrey, right? And I said, yeah, you know, he's really smart, interesting. And she kept saying, just be careful. And I remember that. I remember that very clearly where we were sitting. I remember that conversation.

And that, you know, that echoed then throughout the couple of months that I was seeing him. that's another thing that would just pop up every time there was a new data point that was very, very strange. And didn't he at one point tell you that he had a video of you getting changed at his house? Yes, so I only supped over in the house a couple times, but the one, I think it was the day after I did the one time. First time. He said to me, you know, I have video of you undress, you know, naked in, the bedroom and it's one of my prized, it's one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen or something really creepy like that. Yeah, so that was close to the end.

And was that one of the things that made you feel, A, it's a very unusual thing to do to someone and also sort of signaling that I have control over you or I can do something with this video? Perhaps that may have been his intention. he liked to share, he liked to send out little signals and let out, eke out little drops of what was really, I think, going on. And then he wouldn't expand upon it. So it was just enough for you to go kind of stop and think, well, wait, what? What did you just say? You know, today obviously I'd look, the woman I am today as a, you know, a fully formed, hopefully somewhat more actualized person would look and say,

what did you just say to me? What are you signaling right now? You know, he's older, he has a bunch of power. I was pretty underdeveloped. And so I would hear it. And it would, you know, it would stick out as odd, but it was very hazy as to the meaning. So you split up, you eventually stop modeling. You moved to L.A.

What did you think when you heard he'd been arrested? So I wasn't surprised. I will say that I, over the years, once I transitioned into my second career and moved to Los Angeles and I opened my studio and was involved in another phase of life, I would still see articles coming out on him. And I think the big one that I noticed was in Vanity Fair was about him on a 747 going to South Africa, I believe. And I read it and I just remember my heart kind of dropping. I was like, there's something so much bigger and deeper to this guy. Out of all the men I've dated, even or even been friends with high-level politicians or folks with power, there was something very dark and also very opaque about him.

And I remember seeing that and thought, I thought, this story isn't over. There's just so much to this and this story isn't over. I can't remember the name of the article, but I think it was something like the fantastic Mr. Epstein. or the mysterious Mr. Epstein. So after he died in prison in 2019 and the news of the extent to which he'd had this network of young girls and then with the sentencing and the trial of Gillen Maxwell the following year, or 2022 she's sentenced.

Were you surprised by the extent of it? No. Did it feel somehow validating for you that you'd always thought there was something odd and then here it was? Yeah, I guess it validated my instincts, but I think, I mean, you know, that doesn't have a ton of value to me. The horror of what those women endured as girls was really upsetting. I think also, you know, me too happened. And it's not just me. it's a lot of women.

When Me Too happened, we suddenly started denormalizing. So many things that have happened to us, you know, denormalizing, I was a lot of word. And that's also, I think, what prompted me to revisit a lot of this and start connecting more dots. And I remember going to my storage unit and pulling out all of my boxes of, like, magazine covers and tear sheets and everything going through them and lining them up to digitize them in my living room

and looking and was like, you know, okay, that guy, that photographer, that shoot, he exposed himself to me. Okay, that shoot, he got my number, wouldn't stop harassing me. That shoot, he kept coming, you know, it's just, there's just so many data points from those years, and they sort of blended with a lot of the Jeffrey Donald memories in my mind. And then I started sorting through them more, I'd say, when Donald ran in 2016. And he sent you a postcard after the event where he had groped you at Trump Tower, right? He did. He did. It's the front of the postcard. It's a postcard of Marilago.

Like, it's just so funny. Like, know your audience, dude. That is such a turn off. But anyway, so it's a postcard of Marilago. And then on the other side, it's just so it's a postcard of Marilago. And then on the other side, and this very, I mean, iconic handwriting is Stacey, your home away from home, loved Donald. And you didn't, I was interested that you kept it. I thought props for keeping it because I think I would have been tempted to rip it up. Yeah, I was actually surprised when I found it. I found it during the Me Too, this period that I talked about when I was getting stuff out of storage. And there was news about Jeffrey.

There was news about Me Too and Harvey Weinstein. And it was all sort of swimming around. And I was trying to sort through. because also, you know, I've written about it for myself. And so I opened up a box and it was in there. I don't remember putting it away. I don't remember. But I'm, you know, I'm glad I hung on to it.

Yeah, well, it turns out to be sort of evidence of a sort, doesn't it? And when you look back on your modeling career now, if you were talking to a young woman who wanted to go into modeling, what advice would you give her? I mean, people reach out to me all the time and I say, I won't advise or talk about this because there's no point. I wouldn't do it. Listen, there's no business model anymore, you know?

So, like, there was a reason for us. It got me out of rural Pennsylvania where I was looking at piles of student loans for college. And I did like my existence there, to be honest with you. I mean, when I was 12 years old, I saw the KKK burning across. All of that, those aspects of rural Pennsylvania really, really. really affected me deeply and I did not like being there. That's another reason. That was why it worked perfectly to get to New York.

That was the impetus to get to New York. It wasn't just to become famous and make money. It was to get out of a place where I was not happy. That wasn't aligned with my values. And so... Well, and also it's a great career to earn a lot of money quickly if you're successful, which you were. I was.

I was lucky. I did really well. I had my little niche, was able to set myself up and buy a home. You know, how many people can do that now? But like I said, there's no business model. I mean, I could be, yes, I did some high-level stuff, and I did Sports Illustrated, and I got some contracts and things like that. And I had a nice lucrative career.

I was on the cover of a lot of catalog, or sorry, a lot of calendars, and there were a lot of posters, and, you know, I was sort of, I'm in the Hall of Fame, and I was in the Hall of Fame shoot and everything. But it was a record number of appearances, I believe, at the time. Kathy Ireland and I both had that. So, yes, yes. So, I mean, I was very known. And I was hosting Access Hollywood and hosting MTV and doing a lot of television work and things like that. I mean, I was, you know, I was, I had a good career. But, but, you know, like I said, there were, there were dozens and dozens, hundreds of models who you would never recognize who were working every single day, putting money in the bank, buying up real estate, you know, all of us setting ourselves up to go back to college or to start a business or, I mean, how many people. get to front load their maximum earnings in their lifetime in their 20s. It's like the only industry I've ever heard of, right? So, you know, and then you fade out. Sports for guys.

Right. I mean, it's modeling or sports for guys. Yeah. Right, right. So, and so, you know, it was a tremendous, it was a great opportunity. But as, you know, in a lot of the essays I've written about this, you know, you had that devil on the shoulder, right? The devil and the angel. So, you know, the devil would be like, okay, you're around some of the biggest lease bags. You know, what are you doing here and then you know the other shoulder is you're working in a creative industry at a creative peak in new york city i mean it was i'd go out i'd see bosca i'd see warhol i'd see herring um i was working with the greatest hair and makeup artists and photographers in the world you know being photographed by richard avidon and and um scovolo and all of these people so it was an incredibly alive

vibrant compelling world um especially for me coming from rural pennsylvania with a sort of maybe an innate, artistic and intellectual curiosity. And it was a perfect world for me. So did anything ever get, did everything ever get bad enough for me to want to give it up? No. But I was navigating so much, especially for a very young person.

And we're going to take a quick break for some messages. And we're back with the former model, Stacey Williams. Well, it sounds like you managed to navigate it pretty well. When you heard the news last week that Gillen Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein's partner in crime who was sentenced to 20 years and 2022 for sex trafficking, that she was being moved to jails from a federal jail in Florida to what's known as a camp, a minimal security prison in Texas. What did you think? I cannot believe, again, how brazen to do this back. backroom deal with a trafficker, a child sex trafficker, and then in addition, not have a single conversation nor acknowledge any of her victims.

It's heinous. It speaks volumes of this administration and what they stand for. Right. And of course, we don't know that they've done a backroom deal, but we should say that, obviously, the move of jails came after Todd Blanche, Donald Trump's. former personal lawyer, now number two of the Justice Department, went down and spent a day and a half with Gillen Maxwell interviewing her. So it's hard not to put two and two together and conclude that she's moved as a result of that conversation. Are you in touch with any of the

other victims? Yes. I know there are women who have interacted with them who haven't come forward. they haven't come forward as far as the young women or the women who were trafficked as young women and girls by him. I've never met any of them but my heartbreaks and I was really quite leveled when I

you know when I heard about Virginia had to go for a walk. Yeah, Virginia Jewfrey who of course was one of the victims who gave evidence very movingly at Gillen Maxwell's trial and was poached

from Mara Lago where she was working in the locker room at 16 to go and be Jeffreys, personal masseuse by Gillesne Maxwell. Yeah. Well, Stacey, thank you very much for talking to us. I think, you know, I just want to reiterate to you, and you probably know this, that I was polygraphed by a very leading renowned examiner. passed it. That postcard, I know CNN verified its origins.

The signature is obvious. And, you know, I appreciated Michael Wolfe sharing that he had confirmed with Jeffrey about what the two of them did to me in his podcast. Did Jeffrey tell Michael Wolfe that they'd done it as a premeditated sort of joke between them? Not sure, actually. I'd have to revisit. I couldn't listen to it more than once, to be honest with you. But I don't know.

You'd have to ask Michael that. Yeah. Okay, well, thank you very much for joining us. And what an extraordinary experience. And then to have it revisited in such a scaled way so much later on in your life when you probably had forgotten almost all about it. Yeah, it's mind-blowing. I've said to people that,

when I first started talking to reporters about this in 2016 and I was off the record, but I spoke to a lot of reporters. When I tell the stories out loud, I almost don't believe myself. It's so truth is stranger than fiction in a weird way. Or I hear myself and I think, wow, would that be hard to believe? It's all true.

I've been polygraphed 100%, but, you know, my life's been, as well as these other victims, I'm sure. It's truth is stranger. than fiction. So it's, I don't know if I'll ever fully be able to, to digest or process it, you know. Well, thank you for coming on and talking to us about it. And it does shed light on the nature of Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump's friendship. We know they were very close, especially during the sort of peak model era of the 90s. And your story puts it in some perspective for us.

Sad perspective for you, but helpful, I think, to understand the drama about it now. Yeah, thank you. I think it's really important. It's driven me nuts that people for years have been saying, oh, come on, just because they were in photographs together doesn't mean when I know the truth. And a whole bunch of us know the truth. And so the more, it's healing to have the truth come out, right? I mean, that's where the alchemy comes, you know, of healing. Why do you think more people haven't spoken out? I mean, look at what women endure when they come forward. Lazy Ford had to, what, move out of her house, sell it. Jean Carroll. Because Jeanette Ford, too, Brett Kavanaugh. Yes.

I mean, women take on these men and they get shredded. Their lawyers go after them. I mean, I've seen some of the things written about me. And so that's just the, okay, so you, you know, you just block that out, but then, you know, I know women who have received death threats. women have children. A lot of these models now are raising children also, or a lot of these victims that I know who haven't come forward, and they don't want to bring that into their kids' lives. That's why I didn't right away. That's why I was off the record, you know.

So I think first and foremost is you want, you know, especially when you've come from that kind of insanity and darkness, once you're having kids and you're a parent, you know, you really long for just the calm, normal stability. And you want to, you want to provide that for your kids. not have that part impacting their lives. And I think that's another reason why a lot don't come forward. Well, I think we would all like some calm stability. Oh, man. It just looked like it's on the cards. I can't wait for boring times.

We can't wait for boring times. Stacy, thank you very much for joining. Thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Well, how remarkable to discover the next boyfriend, 20 years later, turns out to be the head of a pedophile network and that the best friend he tooled around with in the 90s is now the President of the United States. I've had some ex-boyfriends in my time, but that one really takes the biscuit. Now, it should be pointed out that when Stacey first came forward with her allegations just before last November's election, a spokesperson for the Trump campaign completely denied it and said her allegations were politically motivated.

So we'll be back on Wednesday with Michael Wolf. Don't forget to share this podcast. Please leave us a comment. Let all your friends know about it. And don't forget to be Beast. And join me in applauding our producers, Devin Rodgerino, Anna Von Erson, and our editor, Jesse Millwood. Want more great listens?

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