The Daily Beast Podcast - Trump Is Sicker Than They’re Telling Us: Don Lemon

Episode Date: September 9, 2025

Independent journalist Don Lemon joins the Beast’s Joanna Coles for a wide-ranging conversation unpacking Trump’s health issues, the MAGA movement’s big problem, and the night RFK Jr. had dinner with Don Lemon. The two dive into Trump’s public appearance at the U.S. Open and ask what the mysterious blue object clenched in his mouth, seen in a candid photo, is. The two also take apart JD Vance’s rise, calling him the kind of “DEI hire” conservatives pretend to hate. They dig into the contradictions of his wife Usha’s background, the role Black Americans played in securing rights for immigrant communities, and why Trump still manages to suck all the oxygen out of every room. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I think that he is sicker than he's, than the administration is letting on to. Donald Trump is almost 80 years old. And, you know, if you get older, things start to happen to you. I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. Before we get into the Pido Patio and the hearings with RFK Jr. last week with our special guest, I just want to remind you, if you're watching this on YouTube, below this video, press the join now button, and you can become a member of the Daily Beast community. It's so many benefits, not those kind of benefits, extra content benefits, all sorts of things, super fun. And you get access to, well, you might get access to me and some Daily Beast journalists who will give you the lowdown on what we think is actually going on.

So don't forget to subscribe, join our community, subscribe to the Daily Beast, wherever you get your podcast, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, leave us a comment. And also sign up for inside Trump's head, our new twice weekly podcast where we go deep inside the dark gray brain matter of our president with Trump author Michael Wolf. Now we're going to get into it with a man who's back by popular demand. You love him. he's got all sorts of views. If you ask him about anything, he's got a point of view on it. He's just back from D.C. where he was racing around with a microphone. He stopped off in Baltimore and the governor had an impromptu press conference for him.

And he had dinner and he's going to tell us about it with RFK Jr. So, no more to do. Don Lemon is in the house. Joanna Calls. Look, I've worn my blazer for you. I'm very conscious you don't. have a blazer or a cardigan on, but I've worn my blazer for you, don't. Would you like me to put my cardigan on? I brought one. No, no. I want you to say just

the way you are. You are back from a week in DC, just back. What was it like? Besides exhausting, it was interesting to be there after not being there for a while, because I would go in and out on CNN, depending on the news. If it was big enough news, I would go. But never as a sort of on the ground reporter, either at the White House, or at Congress or, you know, at the Capitol. And I saw you running down the corridor. You've been chased out of Marjorie Taylor-Greem's office. You had a huge microphone.

What's the point of it all? Well, the point of it was when I watch, on the occasion that I do watch, and I do take note of the reporting, is that I don't think the reporters, and I don't want to criticize my, you know, fellow colleagues because it's a very tough job right now. You've been your fellow ex-colleagues? My fellow ex-college. At CNN or just people who are out there.

The White House Press Corps. Yeah, they're working their butts off or the congressional correspondence or whatever. But it's a tough climate to be in if you're working for corporate media because you don't want to, in any way, inhibit or screw up the access to your network by actually doing what reporters usually do. And especially if you look at what happens in the UK, reporters are very aggressive. They challenge authority. And I think we've lost the. art of that, especially with our constitution and freedom of speech and freedom of the press. Do you know, I was just going to interrupt, which I always do, I'm afraid.

That's okay. There'll be lots of people writing and saying, don't interrupt Don Lemon, only to say, do you know the difference between the British press corps and the White House press corps? When the president walks in the room, the White House press call stand up. When the British Prime Minister walks in the room, the British press call go like this. Oh, why is he lying to us? Yeah. That's the difference.

And they can't do that right now. There was a point where we could do that, but we just don't. And I don't think it's the reporter's fault. And so I think this time, it is important for people, at this time, it's important for independent journalists to be the pioneer. I don't know if it's pioneers or to be the brave folks who actually go in and do what we used to do as journalists. And that is to challenge authority. and without fear of favor, without worrying about access, without worrying about what the boss is going to say,

without worrying if we're going to get fired or any of those. So how did you get in? Because you were in the capital, right? So I was in the capital and do what everyone else does. I called and I asked for access. And they said, we don't give independent media hard passes to be able to go wherever they want. But if you are with a staffer, you can do it.

And so what we did was we requested interviews from different lawmakers. Sort of an experiment for the Don Lemon Show or the Don Lemon Channel is that we wanted to be able to just have access and to see if our idea of what the journalist should be doing if it was realistic or not. And it was. So those who accepted, we walked around with them. And some of the people who we wanted to see who didn't necessarily respond happened to be walking around at that point. Or we were with groups who wanted to go and talk to those people. And we had the opportunity to do it. So I think you have to show up.

And I love live. I love in real life. I think it's more engaging. I don't think people want canned anymore. They want real. It's more unexpected. They want real authenticity. All right.

So what were the highlights of you racing around with an enormous microphone? It must be said. Not really enormous. It's got my initials on it, right? So, you know, what was it like? and what was the highlight you said? Yeah, what was the highlight? What did you feel came out of it that was valuable for the lemon heads who I now notice?

They got to see our government at work, if I can cut you off. Right. They got to see our government in action and behind the scenes, and now they understand how it works. And now they understand that the Congress people aren't necessarily in the capital all day, right? They're in their office buildings. And some people may have realized that others don't, and you have different office buildings. And so we had to go back and forth through security for the different office buildings. And I don't think they realize that their doors are open.

And I don't think they realize that if you're a citizen, you can request and you can go into those buildings to speak to your particular representative. And I don't think people realize that. I think they think, like, okay, I can never get in. I have to do something special. You don't. To get into the Capitol, that's a different story. So the highlight for me was to show people how our government works, how the press I believe the press should work and how I believe that I know that our representatives need to be more open. open to answering to the American people, and that is through journalists.

And right now, I think it's independent journalists. Okay. So you're an independent journalist. You're down there. You're able to ask questions. Did you talk to anybody about the president's health? A lot of people talked about the president's health on the streets. But our representatives did not discuss it that much.

But people out in the world want to know, and they want more transparency around it. What do they want to know? What were you hearing? They want to know if he's dying. Right. Well, we want to know if he's dying. Is Trump dying? Right.

So that was a point that you found people really wanting to talk about. Oh, yeah. Yeah. They wanted to talk about it. The Congress people talked mostly about it was when I went, it was Epstein victims. The Epstein survivors were speaking, and that really held a lot of, you know, weight and attention for the first couple of days or so. And then after that, it was, you know, hearings. It was just other things that they were.

You had RFK juniors. And RFK Jr. Speaking it in front of the Senate. But yeah, people on the street and people who are in the comments, they want to know is what's going on with Donald Trump's health. What's going on with his hand? Why is it bruised? What's going on with his ankles? They don't think he looks well even this weekend.

I was not in Washington, but this weekend when he was at the U.S. Open. People said he did not look well. Well, what do you think that blue thing was he had between his teeth? I don't know. It was a blue pill. but I think it was the wrong shape, right? Well, I immediately leapt to, oh, he's got Viagra, what's happening here? But it's the wrong shape.

Viagra, I think it's a diamond, and that looked more like a sort of, what is the shape? It could be an altoid or something. I don't know what it is. I have no idea. There are blue altoids, are there? It looks medical. I don't know what it is. People are musing and assuming some folks at its Adderall.

Is Adderall blue? I have no idea. I don't do adderol. I can't even imagine you doing Adderall. You'd be like flying around the room. Yeah, you'd be flying around the room. What do you think's going on with his health? This is my opinion.

I think that he is sicker than the administration is letting on to. And by evidence only, history is the evidence, because I remember being on the air and being the first to report that Donald Trump and Melania Trump had COVID. And when Donald Trump walked out of the White House to walk to Marine One and then go on to the hospital, he was, he looked terrible. But he was sicker than we knew. And no one told us about it. And there's nothing that leads me to believe that they would be even, they would be more transparent about it now. So, look, Donald Trump is almost 80 years old. And, you know, if you get older, things start to happen to you.

I think my mom, I just had my mom. She came to visit for two months. And I noticed, you know, observed her. She's 83 years old now. She's not, and she even she will admit, I'm not the person than I was even five years ago. And so once you get to be a certain age, it's just natural. I mean, things start to happen. So I think he's probably sicker than they're letting on.

and I wish there was more transparency because this administration seems to be more concerned about Joe Biden's, you know, alleged cognitive issues, and he's not even in office anymore, and I think they should be more, you know, transparent about Donald Trump's issues. Do you think the White House press corps should be pressing Carolyn Levitt on it more?

On that end, everything. I do, of course. How is she doing, do you think Caroline Levitt? I can't watch live. I can only watch the clips because it's so infuriating and frustrating because they don't allow people to push back in a significant manner. They want to move on quickly. She'll say, you know, Joanna, and then you'll ask a question, and then she just sort of either lies about it or obfuscates or deflects. And then she goes, Bob, and you're like, whoa, whoa, wait.

And then if people are afraid to get out of line now, and just I have a follow-up. And I believe the next person, if you aren't allowed Joanna to follow up on something that's very important, I think the next journalist should say, why don't you answer my colleague's question. Right. But they don't do that. So I think they should be pressing her about a lot of things about Donald Trump's health. We shouldn't be able to see the records, so to speak, because we know what I think it was, Randy Jackson, whatever the doctor was. Ronnie Jackson. Randy Jackson is right.

But that would be fine, too. Well, I was going to say, isn't Randy Jackson, the guy who was on, wasn't it, Randy Jackson who was on America's... American Idol. Yeah, dog. And then Randy Jackson was Michael Jackson's brother. Right. I think Randy's the youngest. So, yeah, but I think they should be pressing her on a lot of things.

I would just like a little bit more follow up. The thing that I've learned, though, honestly, is that nothing really comes out of that briefing room. That's all theater. That's all a show that they plan every day. And Caroline Levitt is a perfect character. because she never really answers any question. She infuriates people and she frustrates the folks who are watching at home enough to where they're like, right?

And it's like a character you hate like a housewife show or whatever. Right. Or, you know, how people hated Joan Collins on Dynasty or Dynasty, as you would say. And so I think it's that, but that no real news. The real news and the real journalism comes from people who are doing the on-the-ground, Gumshoe investigative reporting. That is just theater. And so, you know, if I happen to be a Washington-based correspondent, I don't even know

if I would want to be in the press corps in that manner. But I would certainly like to be able to go to those briefings every day if I could hold her to account. Well, you applied for a press pass. Last time I saw you just applied for a press pass. I'm assuming you've gotten nowhere with it. No. They led in a lot of new media, a lot of independent journalists, and usually the conspiracy

see very types. I don't know if I can even name, Benny Johnson, who I'm just beginning to know his work. I've never, they didn't know him before the, um. Well, they have Marjorie Taylor Green's boyfriend in that. Right. That guy who, yeah, I mean, come on. So, but they won't let me in because I guess they're nervous about someone actually challenging Caroline Levin and or the president. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's, that's, well, you're challenging him from your platform on YouTube, which is, you know, frankly bigger than your former platform at CNN. Yeah. Well, is it bigger in a different way it is?

I think in... Well, I think your audiences for your certain show. I mean, when I've looked at the numbers, they seem certainly competitive to the shows on CNN in terms of viewership. As you know, you're in this business. Not everything hits. Some things get a huge amount of views. Some things get none.

It just depends on the algorithm that day, the zeitgeist, what people are doing. But yeah, I think we're doing well. And I think that we're, for me, it's relevance. I think that my channel is very relevant right now. And the IRLs or the on the street things showed me that people love that we're doing that. We were coming back from D.C. on Friday. And I said, let's stop in Baltimore. The president says he wants to send armed troops or national guard members to Baltimore to Maryland.

And Wesmore, the governor had invited him, right, and say, come and do a walk around. Yeah, come and check it out. So I went to one of the roughest neighborhoods in Baltimore and did a, an IRL and people had different, you know, and these were mainly black people. And some of them said, yeah, I want the National Guard to come. And others said, no, I think it's, I don't think it's necessary. And they were also surprised and shocked that I would show up in this neighborhood because most people are afraid to go there. Right. The response, though, I found interesting because people said, some of the right wing folks and conspiracy theorists said, oh, not the answers that Don Lemon wanted. Yeah, it is the answer that I want. I want to hear from everyone. So, you know, for those of you who are writing that, You have no idea what you're talking about. I want to know what people are saying. But on the way back, I did that. And then we were driving back to New York, doing a live show.

And then I stopped at Cracker Barrel for the first time I'd never gone considering the controversy. So I'm at Cracker Barrel. And I get a call saying, are you in Baltimore? We see that you're in Baltimore. And I said, well, I just left. And they said, well, there is a five o'clock press conference with the governor, the mayor and the senator. We would like for you to be there. Since you took us on Donald Trump's offer to come and you actually did, why don't you come?

And we had to hightail it back. They held the press conference for us for 15, 20 minutes. And I got to actually interview the governor, the mayor, and the senator live. No national press there. Barely any local people. So interesting, what an interesting journalistic approach to doing it too. So you go there, you put it out there. They see it.

Because people are obviously watching. And then they're like, well, we need to engage it. It's very interesting. Relevance. That's what I think we're more relevant in a way than my old place. Well, and also if you'd been at a big network, the effort and the energy, that would have taken three weeks to organize the right. The fact that you could just hightail it back and they were like, let's do it now.

Feels like certain politicians are getting with the program. Clearly Gavin Newsom. I wanted to talk to you about what you thought of the way that Gavin Newsom really is cutting through at this point. I think it's brilliant. I hope it's lasting because people get excited about things, especially on social media, right, on digital media. And then, you know, it's gone, right? Because the new cycle moves so quickly in people's interests change. But I think what he's doing is brilliant.

And, you know, I know Gavin Newsom when he interviewed Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon. And I, in my opinion, I felt that he didn't push back enough. I contacted him. And I said, what are you doing? And he explained to me what he was. doing and you know and I've been trying to get an interview his people won't allow it so far they keep saying oh yeah we haven't forgotten about you but um and I don't think they're afraid of a challenge but I'm just surprised that they haven't come on so Gavin Newsom governor come on

and also I would say Steve Bannon we've invited you on the Daily Beast podcast you said you were going to come on you said you love the Daily Beast and then we haven't been able to organize the time right hold them to account and Charlie Kirk and all that I'm sure you would like to talk to them I haven't thought about talking to. So I think what he's doing is brilliant. I think it's, for me, it's fascinating to watch the MAGA cult members make fun and right-wing media make fun of Gavin Newsome and say, oh, my God, he's got to have, you know, more command and he's got to be more professional and live up to his office. When all he's doing is the exact same thing that Donald Trump is doing, and Donald Trump is the leader of the free world, they have a different standard for Donald Trump, the leader of the free world than they do for the governor of a state in the country.

And who knows? He may well become president or leader of the free world, right? That's what all this is leading to. I thought him calling the patio, as we know Donald Trump has concreted over-semented over Jackie Kennedy's Rose Garden with his patio. And Gavin Newsom called it the Pido patio, which immediately everybody I knew was kind of frantically tweeting and liking. I thought that was a good one. I think it's a good one. And I do think, I'll say this, excuse me. Pardon me. I do think that Democrats should take a lesson from Gavin Newsom. They appear to be, and I don't want to be too hard on Democrats, but let me be hard on Democrats. They do appear to be afraid of their own shadow. And they don't really know what to do in this moment.

And I think the correct thing to do is to lean in because there's nothing that you can do that is worse than 34 criminal counts. or, you know, being in the Epstein files and having reportedly the FBI agents, the Justice Department having FBI agents redact your name from it. There's nothing worse than that. So I think they need to lean in because people want a democracy. People care about a democracy. People care about the First Amendment. People care about due process. And so I don't think that you should, when my mentor and would always tell me one of the best.

Who was? for and when I was at CNN, in the latter part of it, it was Jeff Zucker. And he taught me never to judge a news story, just to report on the story. So never to judge what is happening. I think the Democrats are judging and they think that they're better than the news story. And I don't want to, you know, I don't want to have my hands in this. I don't want to go low. You've got to go wherever it takes you.

And you have to remember, this isn't about you and your stature and your respect. and your respectability. This is about fighting for the American people. Okay, so let me ask you something. And the American people want you to fight right now, whether that means going to the crust of hell. That's what they want. And people are, I can't do that.

That's not who I am. Well, it better be, are you going to lose your position? Right. Well, some of the American people, right? There's a whole ton of American people who love what Donald Trump is doing, who do want the National Guard coming in, who do think that, who've bought the idea

that crime is out of control. Yeah. But what I was going to ask you, in terms of the Democrats' response. Did you watch the RFK junior hearings? I watched some of it. I didn't get a chance to watch all of it because as you know, I was running around on Capitol.

Right. Well, I wasn't sure if you'd actually managed to get into the hearing or not. But one of the things that struck me was how angry the Democrats were, understandably by him beginning to be squirrelly now about giving people access to vaccines. But I didn't come away thinking that they had nailed him in the way that cool, calm, argument might have done. He was red-faced. He looks apoplectic. His fat little fingers were kind of dancing in the air. I mean, he's such an unappealing looking man. But he looked angry

and red face like Brett Kavanaugh did. And I thought the senators around him were reduced to his level. When you see Michael Bennett from Colorado yelling at him, when you see Warner yelling at him, it feels like they've stooped to his level. Yes, there's a way to do it. But have they stooped to his level? I don't know if that's necessarily so bad. Look, and I love the senator. I believe he was a Republican who said about Susan Monteris,

who's ahead of the CDC, and she said, before you fire next time, why don't you check her out or tell us before we've gone through this whole process and we were four months into this. And I thought it was just sort of a matter of fact. And to me it was just like a mic drop moment. Right. So I understand what you're saying.

But sometimes you do have to get down and because people want to see that. I think people want to see it. But I sort of look at it through the lens of our FK Jr. is performing for one person, Donald Trump, right? This is an audience of one. And what does he manage to do? But it's also his beliefs. It's not just performing. He has been, as you know, historically anti-vax and anti-science.

For sure. Right. For sure. And he also raises some interesting questions. When he shouts back and he says, you've been on this committee for 20 years and Americans' health has gotten worse. There are some elements of that truth. Certainly America has gotten fatter. It's true. Let me tell you. I think that's right. And I think, you know, I saw that at Cracker Barrel. Don, just hold on one second. We need to take some messages. And we're back talking to Don Lemon about, well, everything really. I don't want to be an apologist for RFK Jr. I think he's a terrible person to have in as the health and human. But a broken clock.

But a broken clock is right twice a day. I know he's the perfect example of that because some of the things that he raises are interesting. But the way he goes about it and the science he's denying is ridiculous. And we don't have the diseases we used to have. So you don't have kids dying of measles. You don't have polio. You don't have mumps. Whoever heard of anybody getting mumps anymore? Yeah. Well, he's wrong about that. He's wrong about the science on vaccinations and the danger that it puts Americans in. And not just Americans, the world, because people just don't live in America.

They travel and people travel here. So the danger that he's putting people in. There's a reason, as you said, that we don't have polio or... Oh, smallpox, all sorts of things that vaccines were for, right? You don't have kids getting mumps or rebella or measles. However, where he is right about some of it is obesity. And that's where most of the issues are in this country. And that's around obesity.

That's where you get the heart problems. That's where you get the back problems. That's where you get the cholesterol, high blood pressure, all of those things, usually you can be taken care of if you just start, if you ate better and you lost weight. Which is why I think those, what is it, I always get these wrong, the LG. GLP ones. GLP ones, yeah, could be the solution. We should be figuring out how to get people on those because that would take care,

that would cure a multitude of sins in America. So RFK Jr. do you think he survives? I mean, I heard a very interesting analysis before you can give me your answer. I'm going to give you my answer. I heard an interesting analysis that because he's a Kennedy, he has a sort of swagger that other members of the cabinet don't have. He sees himself as an equal to Donald Trump, which is interesting. And certainly Trump seems to fawn over him in a way that he doesn't fawn over other members of his cabinet. But I can't believe he's going to last in that job. Look, I agree with you on that part. I'll give you, I mean, maybe he thinks that. I don't see him as part of Camelot or that dynasty because the Kennedy dynasty just because of how he has conducted himself. Well, and I think they've rejected him, right? Yes, and his own family has rejected him on that. So I don't really see him that way.

Perhaps he does see himself as equal to Donald Trump. Maybe there was a point in time where he was. And the interesting thing is that before all of this, I knew him. He invited me to dinner. He and his wife, Cheryl, we were at the, we happened to be at the same hotel. And I think his son, one of the sons, maybe the one who dated to tell us, I think that was his son, one of them. And so we all had dinner. He was a nice enough guy.

She was great. Burying the lead, burying the lead. So you run into RFK Jr. This is years ago. Okay, which was the hotel? What was the hotel? It was the Whitby. And I had gone to a...

Oh, I love the Whitby Hotel. We were, I had gone to... On West 55th Street in the middle of Manhattan. In the middle of Manhattan. And I had gone with a friend to a movie premiere there. I wasn't staying at the thing, but we happened to be there. And I walked down stairs and to the restaurant, I was just looking at the art. I was like, because I thought the Whitby had this great art.

And he goes, hey. And I said, hello. And we sat down and had dinner together. And it was he and my friend who was visiting from Atlanta and Cheryl and the son. And nice enough time. I got his number. We kept in touch. And then during the election, I was like, what happened to you?

He wasn't that guy then. This was a while ago. Did you say that to him what happened to you? Yeah, I said I wanted to. Call him now. Are you serious? Let's call him. I can't call him now.

Let's call him. No, he won't answer. Well, let's try. I bet he would answer. I bet he would answer if he's got his phone on him. Hello, Dad. Let's see. Let's try.

Let's see. Hang on. That's not. That's my New York Times app. Okay. Well, we can call your New York Times app, but let's call him. I feel like we should. We should call him.

him. Live on air. Live on air. Okay, Robert Kennedy. Calling the Health and Human Services Secretary. All right, let's see. We can ask him how he thinks it went. If he doesn't answer it, it starts to give his number. I'm not how many.

Yeah. Okay, so he's not answering his phone right now. He's not answering his phone right now. Who's that woman's voice? Is that Cheryl? I think it was Cheryl. Was that who it was? It sounded a bit like Cheryl.

He did not answer. Okay, well, that's disappointing. Next time. Next time. So do you think he'll survive? No. I think in this country, at the end of the day, you have to have a shared sense of reality and a shared sense of facts. And if people start, you know, these diseases that we had wiped out, virtually wiped out, if they start to come back, it's going to be problematic not only for him but for Donald Trump.

I don't understand the Ron DeSantis move either in Florida to say that schools are no longer mandated to have vaccines. I mean, I think if you're, you know, if you're thinking of going to Florida on a tourist on vacation, why would you want to go to a place where you might pick up something which has been eradicated? Yeah. Well, and lots of people go to Florida, right? Well, the beaches are beautiful. The weather is good. Lots of people from Europe goes to Florida for the winter holidays.

Disney is there and among other things. And so... This is not good for Disney. It's not good because germs and bacteria. and diseases don't respect borders. They're not going to say we're not going into Georgia because this is Florida, or we're not going to go into Alabama or Mississippi

because, oh, we're going to stop at the state line. And they don't respect borders or oceans when people fly into and out of Florida on airplanes. So, yeah. Yeah, it's weird. And also I actually heard Donald Trump slightly equivocating about the Florida decision, which made me think, oh, they probably are going to reel it back, maybe.

You know what my question was to one of the Congress people who was a doctor? I think it was Ami Baram is I would like to know Trump's children, grandchildren, if they're vaccinated. I'm sure they're all vaccinated, don't you think, don't you think Jared and Ivankarva vaccinated their children? Yeah. Even Don Jr. And even Don Jr. And probably Barron has been vaccinated. Yeah.

You know? And I'm sure the older kids, obviously they've been vaccinated. They probably have the old scar like I did, you know, from the measles, mumps, or rebella. Well, it would be interesting. And what about J.D. Vance's kids? I'm sure. I'm sure they all are. Yeah.

Well, that's the cynicism of it, isn't it? That this is a MAGA position. For some reason, MAGA is anti-vax. And so they're playing to the MAGA crowd, the MAGA base. They're playing to their base, which is a cult-like base, and they think that's going to help them secure and stay in power, which is a sad thing, instead of doing the right thing. There is no way in hell that people think that Florida not mandating vaccines is a good idea. Who thinks that? There's no, there shouldn't be a, I don't believe there's a scientist or a doctor on earth who would agree with that decision.

And I heard the Surgeon General of Florida saying parents should be able to make the decision. You should be able to choose what goes in and out of your body. And I'm like, that's parents don't have the information to do that, which is why you have a CDC. and you rely on them understanding the science because this stuff is complicated. I remember during COVID and people are still ticked off that I said this and that I sort of mused about this. And I said, look, if you don't want to get it, then don't. But don't expect to be able to do what everyone else does. Right.

And if you want to go to work and people are concerned that you're going to give them something, then if you want to go to work and then don't go, right? You're free to do whatever you want, but you're not free to infect other people. or to put other people's lives in jeopardy. And so during COVID, when people said, I don't want to wear a mask, I don't want to get a vaccine. It's like, okay, if you don't want to do those things, then don't expect to be able to do with the rest of society, the people who are following the rules, the people who are looking out for their fellow men, people who are looking out for someone who has a compromised immune system or a preexisting condition as my sister or my did and my mom does. and so or the just the woman in the grocery store who may have something or a member of my team who has leukemia. I may not want it for myself, but I don't want them to get it because it puts their lives in jeopardy.

And so for that selfish attitude, then you should be selfish and stay home and stay away from other people. I think that makes complete sense. People got upset when I said it. And they're like, how dare you say that? And I'm like, that makes complete sense to me. It's such a strange argument to have the vaccine. I mean, of all science, you would have thought this was settled, that we have eradicated so many diseases.

Operation Warp Speed was an amazing achievement that was the envy of countries around the world. Donald Trump backed away from it, and now he wants a Nobel Prize for it. Now he wants a Nobel Prize. Well, that was a great question at the hearing. Does Donald Trump deserve a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed? I'm not on the committee, but I would say, no, I would say the scientists who developed it if you're going to give anyone. Because Donald Trump, I mean, you know, he helped, I guess, by clearing the way for folks to be able to do it. But then he backed away from it.

He told people not to get it. And I believe more people died because of their stance and their idea about the vaccine than should have died. And so I don't think he deserves a people. prize for that. I think the people who actually developed it and who did the work, they should get a Nobel Prize. And they're probably in hiding right now because mega people are going after them on social media. It's crazy. It's just so strange. It's so strange that the one, you know, one massive medical advance should come under such attack. I'm not surprised. Look, it's disheartening, but I'm not surprised. We're in now a time

where it is a cult of personality, where conspiracy theorists are given more credence than fact-based, science-based people. And if you're a conspiracy theorist and you're in this streaming world that we're in, then the world is your oyster. You can say whatever you want, as hyperbolic as you want, and, you know, get millions of views and people will, you know, subscribe to your stuff and you get sponsors, yeah. Yeah. And but, you know, but folks who are fact-based, oh, that's boring. Who wants that, you know? Does Trumpism survive Donald Trump?

No. I mean, I think it'll go the way of the Tea Party. And I think, you know, after, if there's not someone who is promoting every single day these conspiracies and lies, I don't think that it survives. and someone who's not in a position of power to be able to codify them in a sense, right, to make it an edict and have the Supreme, it affects the Supreme Court in a way that affects our laws and what's happened. No, not going to happen. J.D. Vance is a smart man. Don't get me wrong. Ivy League educated. But he does not have, he doesn't have the Riz of Donald Trump. Just, well, he definitely doesn't have the Riz of Donald Trump. But just because someone's Ivy League educated doesn't mean that they are,

intelligent. And I've often wondered, actually, if J.D. Vance was a DEI applicant because he went, he went to Ohio State first, then he was in the communications department for the military, and then he went to do his law degree at Yale, right? They were, these Ivy League institutions are crying out for people with J.D. Vance's background, right? Who've grown up in small, in economically challenged environments. So it strikes me that he could well have been a DEI applicant. And, you know, they're used to legacy kids coming in. And here is someone who's fresh, who's new, who's got a different background. I'm sure they bent over backwards to bring him into their network. I would say that you're right. That's a very good point. I didn't think about it, but he is.

And I know even, I mean, perhaps he is there, but I think he's a DEI hire as vice president. Meaning what? Meaning that he's not qualified for the position. And I mean their definition of diversity, equity, inclusion is people who are not qualified, who are given the job because of either their ethnicity or whatever one may think. He was given the job that he's not qualified for because he's a white man and that's what Donald Trump wanted and someone to relate to a certain kind of person, as you mentioned, from his background where he comes from. I mean, his book is Hillbilly Elogy, which is so is he a DEI hire in their definition? Yes.

But so is Pete Hegseth. and so is Christy Nome and so is Tulsi Gabbard and so is Pam Bondi they're all diversity equity and inclusion hires

and so is Sean Duffy Right Don we're going to take a quick break for some ads and we're back with Don Lemon You know one person I wonder about and I'm very curious

to get your take on is Usha Vance who seems to be so out of her comfort zone. Whenever you see her, she just looks awkward and she seems to be doing less and less publicly now. What on earth can she be thinking? She probably wants to stay far, far away from politics, which I think if she, if that's the case, she's very smart. I often wonder how she feels as a woman, a minority woman, an Indian American woman, listening to all of the racist and

bigoted things that comes out of, that come out of MAGA's mouth and out of the president's mouth. Right. And she was a Bill Gates scholar at Cambridge University, as well as Yale, which is obviously where she met J.D. Yeah. Look, I don't know her, but I can't imagine being in that situation and not saying, look, to my partner, what the fuck are you doing? Well, what is that pillow talk like? Is he coming back and going, oh my God, you will never believe what he said to me today. You will never believe in. She's like, when do we take over? When do we take over? Or is

she like, you are magnificent today where he was standing silently behind the president? If I had to guess, and this is just me, and I usually am pretty good at it, I think she is grinning and bearing it, and she's like, I have children,

this is not going to last forever. Maybe my husband has a possibility of becoming president of the United States. I'm not going to stand in his way. But I am sure she does not agree or like what's going on. How can you be? How can you like that? Right.

It's very difficult to know if she's just as craven for power as he is. Or if actually she must be. Power is a very seductive thing. But you think of her parents, members of the Democratic Party, first generation. It's just, it's really puzzling. Look, I think the reverse can happen. I know a lot of the kids, the young people, I should say, who work for me in social media, their parents are extremely conservative.

And many of them are Trump supporters. But they work for me, and they're all very sort of progressive, liberal, middle of the road. And so it is possible to come, you know, for a liberal to come from a conservative family, as I'm sure it is possible for a conservative to come from a liberal family. So, you know, I wouldn't be surprised, but there's nothing in her history that tells me that she's okay, except her present says that she is okay with it so far. But if you look at her history, yeah, I agree with you. It's kind of surprising.

I mean, she worked for a law company that's specialized in DEI cases. And she knows about diversity, equity, and inclusion. And she knows who the real beneficiaries of diversity, equity, and inclusion are, which is doubly so. If you look at it's always surprising to me when, especially in this last election, Indian Americans, feels a certain sort of affinity towards MAGA and start to really talk shit about black people. Because if it wasn't for black people in the civil rights movement, J.D. Vance, J.D. Vance's wife would possibly not be where she is. So would Vivek Wamswamy may not be where he is.

And so would Nikki Haley may not be where she is. Black people fought for many immigrants, Indian Americans, Latino, Hispanic Americans, to be able to have the rights that they have. And every single day, some of them should be sending flowers to African Americans for fighting for the rights of all people, rather than talking shit about African Americans and demonizing them. Every day, Vivek Wama Swami should be sending a present to some black person saying, thank you for what your ancestors did. instead he is giving false information or misinformation about the history of this country and the relationship of slavery to the civil rights movement and all of those things. Every single day he's doing that and demonize, every single day I'm being a little bit, you know, generalizing here and demonizing black people, a lot of them are doing it instead

of recognizing the contributions and the respect that they should have for black people as it relates to garnering and gaining rights for immigrants in this country. Interesting. Very interesting perspective, not one that I would have thought of. Is it true that Indians living in America are more conservative than they are liberal? I don't know. I don't know enough about that, but I do have some Indian American friends and their parents tend to be conservative. And sometimes they have conservative thoughts. And remember African Americans are conservative too. in a lot of the socially conservative and religious wise. Religion wise as well. So yeah, I do.

For the Indian Americans, I know, and that's my unscientific survey. Yes, I agree. Right. Okay. All right. So what's next for you? You've been in D.C. You're back in New York.

Are you going to be out on the streets of New York? I'm going to be out on the streets of New York. Every chance that I get, I'm going to be out in the streets of America. If something happens in Chicago, I'm going there. If something happens in. Baltimore, I'm going there. I'm going to go back to Washington, D.C. because it was an eye opener for me that, hey, look, this is great. This is what people want, and I can do this. Are you going to join any of those fancy Washington, D.C. clubs?

No. I don't. The thing is, is that, honestly, I'm not a political person. It's just that this is where the news is. I would rather be doing something completely different. I think I told you this, Joanna, before. When, during the election, I said, well, Well, you know, I'm hearing a lot of Trump, but he may not win. And if he doesn't win, I want to get out. I don't want to do politics. So I'm going to start this thing in the morning called Hot Topics, a la Wendy Williams, where I talk about things that are in the zeit guys, entertainment, social issues, or whatever it may be, you know, pop culture.

And I started Hot Topics 10 a.m., which was Wendy's old spot in here when she was live on the East Coast. And Donald Trump won. And I've been dragged back into politics. Well, he is the hot topic, right? I mean, his genius is keeping attention. Art, right? The Smithsonian. It was at the Kennedy Center.

Yep. He was at the U.S. Open yesterday, sports. He goes to all these football games. He was at the Super Bowl. Yeah, he's at the Super Bowl. He goes to, you know, different entertainment events. He's in every part of the zeit guys. He just sucks all the oxygen out of the room and you can't help but talk about him.

And it's really frustrating. But it is what it is. Now, someone said on the street to me, I think it was yesterday and they said, Oh, you're just mad because Donald Trump won. I said, no, I'm not mad that Donald Trump won, but how do you feel about Donald Trump winning? Look at the cost of things now. Is that what you voted for? And they just run away and said, oh, you're a racist.

And I'm like, okay, whatever. That's just. Right. Yeah. You know what I mean? Weird. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Or you're a moron or whatever. And it's like, okay, whatever. Why are you insulting people? But, yeah. All right. Well, Don, I want you to come back and give us more of your insights of what you pick up in Baltimore and Chicago. And it's really fascinating.

And also the more you talk to people, the more you understand the strange place that America's in right now. Yeah. Well, thank you for that. And I do have to give you a compliment because I think what you guys are doing here is really special. And that I think you're leaning in. I know that's a cliche. But you are doing what the First Amendment is about. And that is without fear or favor.

And you're not, you're a reporter's report on things. You talk to Michael Wolfe. And you talk to conservative people as well. You invite Steve Bannon on, but then you would challenge him properly. And so I have to commend what you guys are doing here. And I thank you for letting me write an editorial now and then an op-ed to be able to... We love having your voice. Well, I appreciate that.

And also it's independent media, which is increasingly under pressure. And it feels very important for people to be allowed to say what they want to say. You know, the thing is, when I'm out and about talking to people, and it's great, you know, the people who love me or the people who hate me, it doesn't really matter to me. But young people come up to me and they say, I love what you're doing. I'm a journalism student. Or I had a young lady yesterday who said, I worked for 60 minutes for a while and I was there for five years. And I recently left. And when I go to interviews to try to promote or get support for my streaming show or guidance, they always say, look at Don Lemon what he's doing as an independent journalist.

And that means the world to me. That means more to me than just about anything that's out there. Well, the Lemonheads clearly agree with them, right? The Lemonheads, the Lemon Nation. I should have brought you a hat. I'm sorry. You should have been. I'll send you some swag.

Can you send me some swag? And we will also, we're getting Daily Beast swag. And we're getting inside Trump's head, the podcast I do with Michael Wolfe. So we will get you a mug. But stay tuned. There's going to be some new fun stuff on the Don Lemon show and the Don Lemon channel on YouTube and everywhere you get your streaming and all over social media. Excellent.

Well, we'll be watching. And I'm so impressed by how long you spend live. I mean, it's better than a GLP1, right? Look at me. Yeah, you look great. You look great, Don Lemon. It's exhausting. Yeah, thank you.

It's exhausting, but it's working. Thank you. Joanne, I'll show you. So it says, sorry, I can't talk right now. Do you see what that says? Who's that? Robert R.K. Okay, interesting.

So we can't talk right now, probably because he's, you know. Maybe in a hearing somewhere or... No, I think he's anti-vaxing somewhere. He's probably snatching a syringe. out of a nurse's hand just as she's about to give it to a child. But he'll probably call me back and talk. Maybe I should do a sit down an interview with him.

You should do a sit down interview with him. He's super interesting. Ask him which part of the brain the wormate. Because that's pretty interesting. He's the one that raised it, right? And clearly there's something not quite right there. Maybe it's the bit that understands STEM. No.

So the world, according to Don Lemon. If you have been, thank you for joining us. Don't forget to press the join button if you're watching on YouTube to become a member of the Daily Beast community. You can subscribe to the Daily Beast podcast wherever you get your podcast and sign up for twice weekly episodes of Inside Trump's Head with Trump Chronicle, the author Michael Wolfe. Don't forget, as our first lady, encourages us every day. Be Beast. And thank you to our production team, Devin Roderino, Anna von Erson, and our editor, Jesse Milwood.

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