The Daily Beast Podcast - Trump Plotted Secret White House Teardown: Wolff

Episode Date: October 29, 2025

Michael Wolff joins Joanna Coles to reveal Trump’s hasty plan to demolish the East Wing and build a massive Trump Ballroom, his push to bypass political limits, and his obsession with control. They break down Steve Bannon’s wild Trump third-term schemes and Melania’s conspicuous absence on the president's Japan trip. Wolff explains how Trump’s real estate instincts shape his decisions in Washington and why Trump’s once seemingly impossible authoritarian dreams suddenly feel possible in an America where business and political leaders are genuflecting to Trump. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I did hear something, and I was recount someone who was privy to the room in which, you know, this idea he's going to do this ballroom. So when they came to him, the building, the contracting team, on the engineering team, they came, they had a meeting, and they said, you know, listen, it really would be much cheaper and faster just to tear down the east wing. and he said this was given to me as a quote he said fuck but can we do the demolition at night wow so you know the idea would be Washington would wake up and the east wing would have evaporated Michael Joanna you're looking like a crisp autumn leaf if I may say so today

well you know the time has arrived the time has arrived people can't see it but it's overcoat My mother used to say never bring out your overcoat until November 1st, but when I got up this morning at 5 a.m. 5 a.m. Well, people can't see that you've got a pair of, what brown is that rich chocolate brown corduroy pencil? No, no, no, tobacco. Oh, tobacco.

Tobacco. I'd forgotten about tobacco. Although I do think smoking is making a comeback, actually. I noticed that in that movie with Julia Roberts called After the Hoverts called After the Hunt where she smokes a lot. And that is not something you see very often. You know, I mean, but as soon as you say the words, I become nostalgic. Oh, don't start.

All right. Did you smoke? Not really. I lived in France for a bit and I smoked very briefly goulat's untipped until they made me ill and then I never smoked again. Well, I did for many years. Did you? That's not good.

The best years of my life. No. The best years of my life. of your life are yet to come, Michael. Are in social media. They're yet to come. All right, where are we starting? What's going on inside Trump's head, even though he's in Japan as we speak, what's going on

in terms of the demolition of the White House? What are you hearing? What are you hearing? Well, I did hear something, and I was recounted someone who was privy to the room in which, you know, So he has this idea. He's going to do this ballroom. It's going to be called, by the way, and I don't know if this is that this is official,

but certainly within the White House, this has been official that this will be called the Trump ballroom, but of course. And of course it outweighs the size of everything else. It out muscles everything else. Yeah, no. I mean, it's a kind of backdoor to how you call it the Trump White House, which might be a bridge too far,

but the Trump ballroom is going to be very much a real thing. So anyway, and of course that he got into this by saying the White House itself would not be touched. It's just going to be an add-on. And then, of course, the White House was really touched with the wrecking ball. And so when they came to him, the building, the contracting team,

on the engineering team. They came, they had a meeting, and they said, you know, listen, it really would be much cheaper and faster just to tear down the East Wing. And he said, this was given to me as a quote, he said, fuck. But can we do the demolition at night? Wow.

So, you know. So the idea would be Washington would wake up and the East Wing would have evaporated. Yeah. I mean, and the thing, I mean, that's a real estate developer trick. Once what you tear down, you cannot build back. So it's a fade-a-complea. Right.

Once it's demolished, it's gone. Yeah, a bit like Penn Station. Well, a lot, a bit like there's a lot of projects in New York. I mean, you don't, I mean, if you're a developer from New York, when Trump is a developer from New York, there are always all kinds of impediments, social, logistical, political, in some sense like democracy itself. Right. In Washington, whatever you do, whatever you propose is going to have social, logistical, and political impediments. And clearly Trump has gotten around so many of those things in the, what are we now, the 10 months of this.

administration. And that kind of comes out of his experience as a real estate developer and going back to going back to this. How do we avoid, you know, I mean, imagine, imagine the outpouring that there would have been if he said, I'm going to tear down the White House. Right, right. Well, it was an interesting piece in the Washington Post that said this is obviously the metaphor that everybody's been talking about, but this is why people actually like Trump because he gets things done, because he tears through the red tape. Well, we should, we should be more specific. This may be why Jeff Bezos, who owns the Washington Post, likes Trump and has been very clearly, incrementally shifting the Washington Post. Democracy dies in darkness. Remember, like the

The White House. The White House dies in darkness. Right, right. Well, the White House is demolished in dark. Yes. So, but clearly Bezos has been organizing and directing a shift of the Washington Post, the Washington Post, to a Trump, a Trump neutral and perhaps a Trump favoring publication. Well, it was a very skillfully written opinion piece because it nodded to the beginning. fact that in theory the East Wing is something that we all love, but in fact, this is how change happens. And, you know, when Truman put up the balcony, everybody thought, oh, this is outrageous, but now it's fondly called the Truman balcony. And so... This is all bullshit. I mean, this is all, you know, I mean, what's going to be, I mean,

it's very clear what is going to be built there should not be built. It's going to be out of proportion. it's going to be a vulgarity, you know, a carbuncle on the nose of an old friend taking the Federalist Reserve of this building. I mean, which has been very symbolic of the American democracy. That's the fundamental. I mean, that is the White House. Right. It's not a palace. It's not a palace. No, it's a kind of a little, you know,

I mean, the family has a little space. The West wing is like a kind of a college admissions office. Well, it's a sort of warren of little offices up strange staircases. It's not grandiose, is the point. It's not like a Russian palace. It's not like a British castle. It's not like Buckingham Palace. And even those things would be better than what this ballroom is going to be like.

This ballroom is not going to be like any of those things. things. It is going to be like, actually my wife zoomed in on this like a wedding mill in New Jersey. Like a wedding mill in New Jersey. My repeating that phrase, by the way, is going to irritate one of our commentators. We're going to come to some of your comments later who said that I have a habit, an annoying habit of repeating things that you say. But often I'm repeating them because I'm thinking about them and I'm trying to make sure that people haven't missed them if they've been making coffee or something. And anyone else can repeat them, please. So we've got the insane rapid demolition.

The only thing that I think would be very interesting is if Donald Trump managed to rebuild it or build his ballroom really quickly. That would be impressive. I've got an anxiety that it's just going to lie there as a pile of rubble because he sort of moved on now. Yeah, no, I think, I mean, Jeffrey Epstein always said, I mean, Donald Trump was, was a moron and a grifter, and he could go down the list of things that he was. But Epstein would say he was actually really good at organizing construction. Okay, well, let's see if that works out here, because I'm sure there are various people. And actually, we've had lots of people writing and saying,

can people sue him and stop him putting up the ballroom? Is there a mechanism to do that? Well, there probably is, but the point is when you've already done it. The facts on the ground have now changed. What are you going to do? Just leave it like that? Well, in some areas where there is really strict zoning, people are sometimes made to unbuild their house.

So it's possible that a court or someone could come back and say a historic commission or something. You know, you have to rebuild it as it was. That was not your job to tear it down. Yeah, good luck with that. That's, that's undiore. Well, because he turns out to have the power to be able to do this. All right. So, he's in Japan.

Meanwhile, Steve Bannon has been talking to the economists saying that he's working on a third term for Donald Trump. And then Donald Trump, on the plane on the way over, was talking about maybe a third term, but it wouldn't be that he would be the vice president to J.D. Vance, because that would be weird. It would be weird. But what do we think? Let's go through. There are kind of, there's a couple of, there's a couple of dimensions going on here. Okay.

Within the White House, I mean, nobody believes that Trump is going to have a third term. Nobody believes that he can in any expression of the American Constitution have a third term. Nor does Trump believe this. Okay. But having said all of that, that they understand that it won't happen, that it shouldn't happen, that it can't happen, against that context, might it yet happen? And remember so much of what Trump has done, we would have said, oh, that can't happen. Right, right. And then it happens, tearing down the White House, for instance.

Well, bombing random boats in any sea that you care to mention at this point. Bombing random boats, yes. So anyway, so then we have Steve Bannon going on stage with the editor of the economist and announcing that it is not only will it happen, but there is already a plan in place for it to happen. Now, I think I've said here that there is no baloney like Bannon baloney. Right, you've definitely said that here. And I want to repeat that because that's absolutely true, because it's not as if Steve Bannon believes that there is actually any constitutional way for this to happen. Or even that he believes that this will happen.

what Steve Bannon believes is that it is going to get him noticed by saying it will happen. But that does not mean that what he says, that the way he understands how Trump works. And although Trump, and that's the other thing about this, that basically Steve was using this to suggest that he talks to Trump. he does not talk to Trump. And more importantly, Trump does not talk to him because Trump really dislikes Steve Bannon. Well, and it feels to me like Steve Bannon had a moment where he got Donald Trump elected. And they used each other and then they had no use for each other. Right.

Now, but we're, and remember, Steve Bannon has has then styled himself even before Donald Trump as the spear of this new movement, the MAGA movement. the MAGA movement, although it wasn't even called MAGA then. And is he now trying to style himself as the spear of a third term? And again, there's a whole bunch of jujitsu acts going on here because clearly Steve doesn't believe Steve is a smart guy, doesn't believe that this is possible. But how do you make the impossible possible?

And if you are the guy who elected Donald Trump president, you really do believe I can make the impossible possible. And what he knows about Donald Trump, I mean, there are a couple of very key things here that the best way to talk to Donald Trump is not in person. It's through the media. Right. And then you have a situation where people are saying, and Trump will start to repeat this, people are. are saying that I'm going to have a third term. That means Steve Bannon is saying. Right.

Steve Bannon has lit the spark. Right. And while this is not at all possible, not possible, nevertheless, what Steve Bannon now in his further iteration of this is saying to people is, what if the Republicans simply not. nobody else and nominate Donald Trump again. What happens if you clearly have the will of a major party, the will of the people here? The Republicans have nominated Donald Trump for a third term. And not anyone else. There's a nominating convention. They nominate Donald Trump. And then there's a kind of peculiar argument that they say, well, a president can, not, you can only have two terms, but that doesn't mean you can't run for a third term. Right.

And again, all this is ridiculous, preposterous. But again, it's the world of Donald Trump. Right. And Donald Trump was ridiculous and preposterous back in 2011 at the White House Correspondence Dinner, where they mocked up that idea that Trump would somehow get into the White House and build his own vision of the White House with big Trump in. neon at the front of it. And as you say, the minute it's out in the media and people start talking about it, it takes on a life of its own and suddenly you see a way where, God forbid,

but this could be possible. Now, I would just like to add to the side of this discussion and wonder why the economist a genuinely respectable magazine, a magazine of enormous restraint and care is in fact interviewing Steve Bannon on the stage. Steve Bannon, just a gadfly, who will say anything. Well, he craves attention, right? He's always like Trump talking. He'll go anywhere. He'll go on any stage, but why would the economist have him on the stage? Now, I know from Bannon's point of view, and the economist had him on the stage in, I think that would that would been 2018 in New York with the editor, the current editor. Zanny Beddowse, Zany Minton Beddow.

Yes, and I was there with Bannon at the time, and he became infatuated with the editor. Bannon became infatuated with Zany, Minton Badows. Yes, I remember he came off the stage, so I was there, and he said, in what world do you think I could go out with her? I don't want to disappoint him, but I think in no world. I think, funny enough, I know Zanny, and I know her husband, Sebastian. I think in no world. I don't want to disappoint, Steve, and yet I do.

Yeah, well. You know, and he's not alone in that. A lot of people find her very attractive. She's got a similar vibe. She won't like me saying this. Got a slightly similar vibe to Margaret Thatcher in that she has a sense of mischief about her, even as she speaks rather strictly and severely, and she's very smart. So she's a combination of smart and slightly mischievous.

And Steve might like a strict woman, if you know what I mean. I don't even want to think about that. But there's another thing. But she's very appealing, Zanny is what I'm saying. She's very appealing. Steve once met a woman by the name of Kathy Rumler. who was the White House counsel to Obama. And, you know, a very, very smart woman and smart, attractive.

And again, he asked that thing. He said, do you think I could? So it sounds like Steve's on the market, ladies. Steve is on the market. For establishment women. So if there are any establishment women out there, and you're currently single, and you're looking for a provocateur

and perhaps a flanner, Steve Bannon's your guy. You can reach out to us and we will put you in touch. Michael will put you in touch. Yes, let's do it. Yes. Okay, so we're turning into a dating agency,

something very, very odd going on here. I will say, I did think Donald Trump looked very lonely as he was walking down what felt like the endless steps of Air Force One as he landed in Japan. And you very much felt like where is Melania? Why isn't she on this tour with him?

I would have thought she might want to go to Japan. And he just looked isolated and old. But that seems to assume that Melania actually has any kind of filial connection to him. No, I thought she might like a shopping trip to Japan because Japan is great for shopping. Except that she would have to go with him. True, true. So she's obviously not with him.

But I will say the other thing is that Trump doesn't like to travel. I mean, it's always a big issue, not sleeping in his own bed. Well, he's in his own bed on Air Force One, even though he hasn't got the new Katari plane up to speed yet. I'm sure he'll have a very comfortable. No, no. But he doesn't. He finds the, he finds Air Force One incredibly uncomfortable, which is why we have this new plane on order. Didn't you tell me once about his first term?

that when he got on the plane, he would always find Wilbur Ross on the plane. And Wilbur Ross always managed to find out when Air Force One was about to take off with Trump on it. And he would somehow muscle his way onto the plane and Donald Trump would be like, what's Wilbur Ross doing? Exactly. Thank you. That was a very good story.

I've read your books. I've read your books and I've loved your books and I've listened to your books, which is a bit like being stuck inside Michael's head, not Donald Trump's head. Okay, so we've got Trump in Asia. he doesn't like to travel. I wondered if he was somewhat haunted by the fact that the former premiere of Japan, Shenzhou Abbe,

was assassinated by a bullet. I feel like nobody's talking about that this trip. And yet this is something that surely must haunt Trump. We know they got on. Remember, during Trump one, Abbe came over and in fact Trump got out some classified documents to show him at Mar-a-Lago, which someone then managed to photograph. But he was someone. who was in theory a diplomatic friend of Trump's, who was, you know, who was killed in the line of duty.

No, I mean, and if you think about it, I mean, there are two assassination attempts against Trump. So he comes face to face in another circumstance where actually somebody was assassinated. So, yes, you're asking the right question. The problem with the answer here and the problem with Trump is that you can't imagine any context in which he has that moment of self-awareness. Certainly he has never let on that there is a side of him which might ruminate about the existential. Do you think Trump dreams? Again, we don't know.

Trump is a kind of a stick figure, if you think about that. I mean, there is no suggestion. ever in anything he does, in anything he says, in anything we've, context in which we've seen of him, of his fundamental humanity. Okay. So no, the answer is you don't think he dreams. Or maybe he has incredible nightmare. We just don't know.

I mean, the only thing I know about Trump at night is I reported this in fire and fury is that In the early days when he was in the White House, he threw a fit because the White House domestic staff stripped his sheets. And he announced that he never wanted that to happen again. And he would take his sheets off the bed. What that possibly means, I have no idea. Well, and didn't you also say, and I think it's in Fire and Fury, that the Secret Service insisted he slept in the bedroom unlocked, because obviously they have to get him out, but there's some crisis in the White House,

and he insisted on locking his bedroom door. Exactly, exactly. So that's what we know about Trump at night. We don't know anything else, except he also watches a lot of television and has more than one screen that he is watching. Well, I'm sure he goes to sleep. Yeah, like me, I have four screens.

I think he goes to sleep with the television and wakes up with the television on so that he has no sense of ever being on his own. But in the movie version of this, I think he would wake up screaming like the scream, the monk painting, which is in fact hanging in Leon Black's living room, having been paid $120 million for. You think it's in his living room?

Do you know it? I'm told it's in his living room. Yeah, I was told by someone who saw it in his living room. And I think there is some sort of weird justification that after spending all that money on Jeffrey Epstein, even more money on Jeffrey Epstein than you spend on the monks, the scream. of four screams, but the best one, that every morning you have to come down and look at it hanging over your fireplace.

Yes, except that if you have... I think Monk got the last laugh there. If you have 15 billion or is it 20 billion, the whole idea of value is... No, no, it's not about the value. It's about what the picture says, the scream itself. You know, the expressionist moment of that moment where you're walking over the bridge. and everything is screaming at you. You're not just the scream.

The world is screaming. Whatever pictures you hang on your wall, you stop seeing them. No. Really? No, I have a very good painting of a woman in a Walmart, and I look at it all the time and think about the nightmare of shopping in a supermarket, which is why I no longer do it.

I do it on Instacart, where I discovered this week that a quart, or half a quart, whatever the size of the milk I get is, which is the same size as everybody's, milk was $9. Couldn't believe how expensive things are. Very expensive indeed. All right.

So the other thing we were going to discuss... You don't probably shop a lot. I used to shop all the time, but now I've discovered Instacart, and I'm like, why am I going to these supermarkets? I don't want to go to them. Hunter versus Don Jr. Last night, I sat next to someone at dinner

who'd been at school with Eric Trump and Don Jr. In fact, Don had just left as this fellow I was sitting with, had joined the school. He said that Eric was very nice, very unpolitical, and had won the Woodworking Championship Prize. He said he wasn't very athletic, because I tend to think of the Trump boys as being athletic, because they're sort of thin.

He said it was not athletic at all, but he did win the woodworking championship, which would play into the family's construction history. Perhaps he could work on the new East Wing as it goes up the ballroom, the Trump ballroom. Well, it brings up a whole other question of how the Trump family is making much, money off of the new East Wing and the new ballroom, which we should...

We should get into that. What do you hear? Give some thought. I haven't, but I'm sure that there's no... That any construction would be irresistible, and obviously they are soliciting money all over the place. And it kind of sounds like in the producer's movie, I mean, at what point you? do you stop? At what point have you paid for your project 100% or do you keep going?

We've now covered this. Well, we know the price has kept going, right? Because originally it was going to, the estimate was 200 million. Now it's gone up to 350. Right. And why not just keep raising? And what would the extra money be spent on? We don't know, but we can begin to guess. Yep. And let's toss it to our sponsors.

And Michael Wolf and I are back. inside Trump's head. If you're Gavin Newsom and you come in as the next president, do you just rip it down? And it's very hard to rip these things down. Well, it's not, though, because we, Donald Trump just did it. So if he's, I mean, the flip side of all of what Trump's doing, right, is that it's showing the Democrats, you could do this too. Possibly. I mean, these are not lessons that the Democrats easily learn. For one thing, and that goes back to Hunter and Don Jr. I mean, Hunter Biden obviously was hoisted because he had relationships with these, with specifically a gas company in Ukraine, and that it certainly could have been inferred that he was there in getting paid because his father was the president of the United States.

I mean, even if there was no quid pro quo, it was. it still was obviously helpful to the Ukrainian oil company, Burisma, that on its board sat the son of the president of the United States. And certainly if you examined Hunter's resume, there'd be no great expertise who would be bringing to a Ukrainian gas board. Exactly. And so that was a particular vulnerability that the Republicans and especially the Trumpers, exploited artfully, more than artfully. I mean, it became, matter of fact, I used to sit with the, with the Trump, various of the Trump operatives.

And whenever anything went wrong in the Trump campaign, they would look at each other and go, Hunter, and that was the default, whenever anything, you just reverted to Hunter. So you threw Hunter out like a piece of red meat to the media? Exactly. It always was the effective change of subject. You're going to accuse us of whatever. But remember, Hunter. And possibly it had to do with the name, such a good name to do that you could just say Hunter. But if you compare Hunter, what Hunter did to what Don Jr. is doing now on an almost daily basis, a grift like no grift we have ever seen, using the fact that his father is the president of the United States to position himself in all kinds of deals, which are paying off now, to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars, the crypto business. Well, and there's the drone business too.

And then now the drone business. Yes. So this is a kind of monument. We have never, in all of the miscreant relatives of many presidents, which we have. we have seen before. Hunter is certainly not the first one. But we have never seen a level of miscreantism like Don Jr. He just is, he just is monetizing his father's presidency at a level, just an extraordinary level. I mean, then we can also talk about the son-in-law, of course, Jared Kushner, who has monetized at an even larger level. But I think it's an interesting thing that the Republicans could so have effectively weaponized Hunter, Hunter Biden. And the Democrats are so miserable at being able to make the case that the son of the president of the United States at this point in his time is. is ripping everybody off.

Right. That he and Jared Kushner are enriching themselves to the tune of hundreds of millions and billions of dollars. Why isn't this front and foremost of what Democrats are talking about? Right. And it could be just because, you know,

that old thing, you borrow a little from the bank, the bank owns you, you borrow a lot, you own the bank. The grift is. so big here that it overshadows any ability to quantify it or to look at it as as it becomes business as usual. And it's weird that people aren't more up in arms about it. I mean, here we are on day 28 of the government shutdown, which barely seems to be resonating with people unless you're about to not get your food box from

well not get and not get your paycheck so we've we've we've now passed the first the first due date of a paycheck we will pass within a few a few days the the the federal food subsidies run out so yes out there somewhere this is beginning to not not just beginning is resonating it's having real meaningful human impact. Yeah, we have 750,000 government employees, federal employees, furloughed. Yeah, who are not getting a paycheck. We're not getting paid. This is how people finance their lives from paycheck to paycheck. Everybody except, you know, Donald Trump's friends. Right, and Donald Trump's family. And, of course, Congress people and senators who are all still

being paid. And the all in the and the stupefying number of rich people in this country. Yeah. All right. Well, where does that take us? Does that take us to some comments?

Might take us to some comments. Okay. Go to the comments. All right. So, comments, Michael. So what several people pointed out that I had asked you the question about how does J.D. Vance react when Stephen Miller

is in the room. Stephen Miller, obviously. Stephen Miller, obviously, you know, highly anti-immigrant, and also Cash Patel. What is it like for them? I mean, obviously, J.D. Vance is married to a woman of Indian descent. Cash Patel. How do they react to? And let's set the context, because Stephen Miller is effectively an unreconstructed racist. Because he's rounding up brown people.

In all of his, in every aspect of his, of his, of his, certainly political life. So, well, I mean, I have two comments. First thing, everybody hates everybody else in this White House. I don't think that there's any illusion otherwise. This is not a White House in which people are collaborating. This is a White House in which everybody has only one relationship, and that's with the President of the United States.

Okay, so it's the opposite of collegial. Yes. And it's, yes, it's not even that these are competitors. It's just everybody, everybody is dependent on the favor of Donald Trump. So they're really not even looking at each other. They don't really care about each. They hate each other. You know, what, because it's zero sum.

If you get favor, I don't get favor. Zero sum, okay. So, you know, in terms of, in terms of Stephen Mill, I think everybody recognizes this is one peculiar person. But having said that, he has the favor of the president of the United States. Therefore, you have to, you can acknowledge to yourself how peculiar he is and how hateful you find him and you hate him because he's getting the favor. But he is getting the favor. Therefore, you have to treat him as a, you have to take him very seriously. Well, and not only is he getting the favor, he's getting the action on the streets of ice turning up, masked men bundling brown people,

as you pointed out in our last podcast, not just any immigrant, but brown immigrants into the back of vans where they may or may not return from. And there is this other perfectly human response, you know, that Kash Patel, a brown person and Usha Vance, a brown person, um, uh, cease to see themselves as brown people. Um, they see themselves as

Trump people. Um, therefore, therefore, what does that make them? Okay, well, people have got their answer. People have got their answer. Okay. Now, Michael, what happened to the bomb shelter, the bunker under the east wing? This is where George Bush and Dick Cheney, I believe, were taken at night. 9-11. Well, this is a good question because where would they be taken now? Well, that question was from Sandra Fickett, by the way. I don't know. Where would they be taken there? Is the bomb shelter still there? But I don't know. I mean, you know, I don't know the whole excavation process. I mean, this is very deep underground these bomb shelters. I mean, one of the interesting things about

the White House, which we don't appreciate, is that the white. House is a kind of facade on top of a military base. Oh, that's interesting. I've never thought of it like that. Is that right? So it's hugely deep underneath. I've never been underneath. This is a military.

The White House is a military installation. Okay. And then it has, you know, it looks and has the, this, this elegant federalist front. But below it is, you know, is a fortified institution. installation. Okay, so we're assuming that's still there? I would assume, yes. Okay, all right, good question, Sandra I'm assuming, and I don't know. And if anyone else, if anyone has more information on this, totally fascinating question, actually. Okay, someone else, KC4NY says, is there a way to stop White House destruction? Apparently not. Okay, not optimistic. All right, I've got some more

questions here. Oh, here we go. And we're thinking of starting a new segment of the podcast called Ask Melania, which would be questions that people could write in for when you get to depose. So when, yeah, no, I think that this is a good, this is a good idea and this would be actually helpful to me. So if you don't know, I am suing the first lady, if you're the last to know. And I mean, this is, this comes about because she was, she was threatening to sue me for the things that I have said about her, about her relationship to Jeffrey Epstein, her relationship and her husband's relationship to Jeffrey Epstein. Something that they don't want to talk about. And so their response to that was to threaten to sue me for a billion dollars. But in a turning of the tables, I, in fact, went into court.

court and sued her. I am now suing her in New York and under New York State's anti-SLAPP laws, which is to say you cannot threaten someone for defamation and libel if your real intention is just to make them shut up. That's against the law in New York State. So I have sued Melania. I intend to, and forward to taking her deposition as well as her husband's deposition and the deposition of many other people who were involved in the Epstein circle, circa the late 90s, this would be. But so our new feature here, which we should return to and please, please give us your questions is what should I ask, or my lawyer, ask Melania when we get her under oath in front of a court reporter.

This could be fun. It could be great fun. And also people are asking where is your GoFundMe page? People are wanting to donate to your legal fees you're going to inevitably. And I completely appreciate that and will in fact have to call on you because this is going to be expensive. The GoFundMe page, which I have tried to set up, is now suspiciously when you go there, they say under review. I don't know what that means. I don't know if what that means is the GoFundMe people, whoever that is, want nothing to do with politics or nothing to do. You know, everybody is afraid, which is why I'm stuck having to be the one who's who has to sue the first lady and pay for this. Nobody wants to do this. No media organization has stepped forward. to do this. And I think GoFundMe may also be full of trepidation about getting involved in this.

But it would be helpful to me, everybody, if you reach out to GoFundMe and say, what the hell? Well, and if anybody's watching this from GoFundMe or the founder of GoFundMe, who we should find out who it is, if anybody has any connections with people who work at GoFundMe, please let us know. when we asked for connections to the people that organized no kings, in fact, someone reached out and I have a number for us to call, so we will be calling that. But under review, what is that, you know, anyway, I don't know what that, what that means. Well, a ton of people have reached out to say, where is your go-fund? Yeah, and I thank you.

And I really appreciate this, because this is going to be god-offly expensive. Right. And they're going to, the Trump's obviously are going to make sure it's going to, going to be expensive for me. Well, and I'm sure lots of lawyers will step forward to because they will want to help you on this. And once more, our sponsor. And Michael and I are sorting through the pink stuff inside Trump's head. All right, what about when a president sues a newspaper, is he doing it in his official capacity or as a private citizen? Can he be sued as a private citizen for slap laws. And that's from Cheryl LaRome, Beatty, Four. Yeah, in a couple of things here,

and this is important, presidents have never sued newspapers. They have never sued the media. The only person to do this is Donald Trump. I mean, there have been situations in which the administration has engaged the media in legal proceedings. The Pentagon Papers obviously comes to mind. But that is not on an individual basis. Trump now sues individually. So he has sued ABC. He has sued CBS in both those situations. They settled with him in those settlements, $16 million in one instance, $15 million in the other in this instance, goes to him. It doesn't go to the Treasury of the United States. It goes to his library fund. It goes, yes, which is a fund wholly controlled by him. And then he's also suing Rupert Murdoch's The Wall Street Journal for the revelation of the

Jeffrey Epstein birthday letter. Right. And suing the New York Times, who also reported on that. And actually that lawyer is the same lawyer who threatened me on Melania's behalf, who is now. The same lawyer who's gone after the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. Yes. I don't know if he's the Wall Street Journal. I think he is the Wall Street Journal. But he certainly is the lawyer pursuing in the New York Times. Oh, well, happy days.

Happy days. All right. Well, Michael, you better get back at it then. You better get back at it in your crisp autumn outfit. When am I going to see you out in the crisp autumn air in the Hantons? Well, we're getting together again on Thursday, right, for Thursday's Inside Trump's head. What do we think is inside Trump's head as he flies back to the U.S.? Well, you know, I think that this, I mean, what's so far most interesting to me about this trip is the China negotiation,

which is the whole point of this of this trip. So Trump has piled on to China since the beginning of the, you know, tariffs, threats, you know, essentially, you know, essentially waging a very cold war against China. China has responded. China has a whole set of controls, a whole set of minerals without which we are in some amount of dire shape. So effectively what it appears is that he is going into this negotiation with China to undo every threat he has made. So, I mean, we should really keep our eye on that. And, and again, this is one of those things. Here's a story for the, for the Democrats, and that in his

cold war with China, he is about to accept defeat. Okay. Well, We'll be back on Thursday to examine that more and see what's come out of the conversations he's about to have. He will claim victory, of course. Of course he will. Of course he will. By the way, there's a paper clip here. According to E. Jean Carroll, the paper clip is the accessory of the fall because you can either wear it, obviously, or you can use it to unpick locks and various other things, but she was determined it's to do with resistance. This is a hell of a metaphor.

Germany, of course. Yes, it's a hell of a metaphor, but people seem to respond to it. And if you haven't, if you haven't listened to it, I want you to go and listen to E. Jean Carroll and Robbie Kaplan because they are so energized by their battle with Donald Trump. As they should. 95 million, as I recall. 83.3 million with another five on top, which they're waiting for. And E. Gene had a wonderful description of his hair like tippy hedrons in the birds. It was a perfect. description of him. And she talks about what it's like, and you've talked about this too, but being in the courtroom with him because you cannot look anywhere else because he's huffing and puffing and snorting and moving and fiddling. And he's like a one-man entertainment center. And Robbie Kaplan talked about when she was summing up for the jury, being very conscious of not even looking in his direction because she had to stay utterly focused on the jury. It's a very good interview at the Daily Beast podcast in the same channel where you find inside Trump's head.

Michael Wolfe. Joanna Coles. That's the end of today's episode. Do you want to thank our team and remind people to subscribe, please? Oh, and we should add the good news that our event at the Museum of the City of New York has already sold out. So thank you. We're very excited to meet people in the flesh next Wednesday. sold out means literally...

It means there are no more tickets. And I've got friends who I sent, you know, a link to saying, please come because I was worried that nobody would come. And they're like, we can't get tickets completely sold out. But you could line up anyway. Well, I want people to line up. I want them to come to the next one. Great. Let's do it.

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