The Daily Beast Podcast - Trump’s Arrest for Stormy Case Is ‘Beginning of the Fall’

Episode Date: March 21, 2023

MSNBC legal analyst Katie Phang joins the show and gives co-host Danielle Moodie insight into why Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg’s indictment against Trump for a Stormy Daniels case, and not Jan. 6, is the first one to catch up to him. She also shares why this indictment is the “beginning of the fall” and her prediction for what’s next, or in her words, the indictment that will really “break the dam.” Also on this episode, co-host Andy Levy predicts whether or not Trump will have a perp walk and surmises whether House Speaker Kevin McCarthy in love with Trump, or afraid of him. Plus! Jeff Sharlet, author of The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War, tells Andy what he learned while writing about the post-Trump world—like how right-wing grandmas have nasty things to say about Hillary Clinton—and why he doesn’t actually care about Trump like other Trump-era writers. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits pretty comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. What an excellent show we have today.

We'll be joined by MSNBC legal analyst Katie Fong. We'll talk to us all about the implications of former President Donald Trump being indicted this week. Then we'll talk to Dartmouth's Jeff Charlotte about his new book, The Undertow, Scenes from a slow civil war. But first, let's have some fun. Andy, dear friend, as we and the rest of the country and the world remain on indictment, watch, which is better than whale watching. Kind of the same, though, but no water. But we're sitting around waiting on whether or not Donald Trump's all caps tweets that he keeps sending out are going to be verified. Is he going to be arrested today later this week? Who the hell knows? But what I

find really fucking interesting, and by interesting, I mean nauseating, is Kevin McCarthy. And I should just stop there and everyone will know what I mean. But Kevin McCarthy, our Fisher Price, the flaccid speaker of the House, if you will, has decided without seeing what Donald Trump could possibly be indicted for, without it actually happening, has run to his defense and used Twitter as his apparatus of choice to say that he's going to open up an investigation into Alvin Bragg's investigation,

which will probably turn up, you know, everything that we already know, based on Michael Cullen's 7,650,000 interviews, that he's given based on Stormy Daniels, 7,657 interviews that she is given. But Kevin McCarthy, he can't quit this motherfucker. Like, he can't quit him. It is like Donald Trump is his drug of choice. I don't get it.

Similarly with Mike Pence going on, you know, the talk shows over the weekend talking about this is, you know, a betrayal of this is the law and order party. And by the way, Mike Pence, they built a gallows for you. They wanted to hang you. Yeah. You were afraid to get into your own fucking motorcade because you didn't know who the driver had allegiance to. You or Donald Trump, but you stay going on TV showing the world what a human jellyfish looks like without the stinger. What do you make of this, Auntie, good friend?

It is, I suppose, unsurprising. And, you know, but that doesn't mean anything other than we're just, we're used to it. We're used to seeing Kevin McCarthy coutow to Trump. We're used to seeing the Republican Party couted Trump since 2016. It's more of the same. And it's Kevin McCarthy. It's Mike Pence, as you said.

It's Chip Roy. It's J.D. Vance. It's all of them. And it's now Jim Jordan, who says he is calling on Alvin Bragg to come to Washington and testify. And we'll see what happens with that. But if you want to talk about politically motivated,

I would think that calling a Manhattan DA to testify in Washington for something that is not, by the way, this is not a federal case. This is a state case. This has nothing to do with the federal government. And it feels a little weird that the federal government would want to get involved in something like this, particularly when they're screaming about the politicization of it all. But again, it's what they do. And they have shown time and time again that. this is the party of Trump and every time there's an article saying

well Republicans have moved on look we'll see what happens with the rank and file but it's very clear that the people in D.C. The Republican, let's just call them what they are now. They are the Republican establishment. The Republican establishment is still scared of fucking death of Donald Trump

and they will do anything in their power to bow before him and to swear their fealty for this guy. Like this, this This has been since 2016. He's like, really? For this guy? This guy does not give a shit about them.

This guy does not give a shit about anyone but himself and enriching his family. But beyond that, he would turn on all of those people. He has turned on some of them. He turned on McCarthy for a while until McCarthy had to go down to Mar-a-Lago and kiss enough ass. And there's a lot of ass there to kiss. Come on. To get back in Trump's good graces.

And this is what they do. And look, we'll see what happens with the charges. But as you pointed out, Kevin McCarthy has no idea what these charges are going to be. He has no idea what the prosecution's case is going to be, what evidence will be lined up. But he is fully confident in going out there and saying that the charges are baseless. And obviously, he doesn't know that because there are no charges right now. But it doesn't matter. None of this matters to any of these people.

All that matters to these people is staying in power. And they have decided rightly or wrongly that they cannot unhitching. their wagons from the horse that is Donald Trump. And so that's where we're stuck right now. The only thing that I'll push back on is the fact that I don't think that the Republicans are afraid of Donald Trump. I think that they are enamored with Donald Trump. I think that they are in love and in bed with Donald Trump. I don't think that they are afraid of his lash. I think that they want to be Donald Trump and be able to say and do whatever the fuck they want without any consequences. He is their white fragility grievance hero. And so when I look at all of this and I see

the ways that there are some that are, you know, bowing to the feet and these are the very same people, mind you, that were in rallies, that were on TV talking about locking Hillary Clinton up. These are the same people who created an entire committee to go after then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton over Benghazi, who she sat and took. testify for 11 fucking hours, did not call foul, did not get on social media and tell people to go into the streets, did not do anything, but what was asked of her, you know why? Because she didn't have anything to hide. And it was Congressman Greg Meeks the other day on MSNBC who reminded me of this when he was talking about the fact that everything that Republicans say is basic

bullshit, which is that law and order works when you're talking about police brutality and abuse of black people. Law and order works when you're going after Hunter Biden's laptop and referring to the Biden administration and the Biden family as a crime family. But mind you, that when Donald Trump was in charge, when he did have his sycophants in the Department of Justice, guess who wasn't investigated? Guess who wasn't brought up on any charges? guess where there were no indictments that fell around any of his political foes because it was a bag of bullshit and another grifting scheme. So I look at these people now come into his defense and I'm just like, you all are weak as fuck because if you actually believed in law and order, you'd be like,

our man, he'll be proven innocent in a court of law because he has nothing to hide as opposed to the step and fetch it show that they're doing right now. Yeah, look, to go back to the thing you said at first, I do agree with you that it's not all of them who fear Donald Trump. There are the true, I think, like the Jim Jordans, the Marjorie Taylor Greens, those are, I agree with you. They are, they are true believers. I'm speaking more of the Kevin McCarthy types, who are not the true believers. And we know from McCarthy's own words what he said, for example, as January 6 was unfolding, as opposed to what he has said since because he realized he was like, holy shit, these people. I have to bow to these people.

And that is pure naked political fear is what that is. And it's a political calculus that is going to keep you in office. But you're right with regard to a lot of the other Republicans, they are in thrall to Donald Trump. And that's just the way it is. And of course, you're right about the law and order stuff. You know, the people chanting lock her up for all those years suddenly are out there spouting a, whoa, you can't go after someone like Donald Trump.

And again, we're seeing that same shit again where it's like if they can go after him, they can go after anyone. And it's like, no, we've talked about this before. But the idea is that, no, the idea is that they do go after everyone else. What they generally don't do is go after powerful people. Going after Trump, if he has committed crimes, is what you're supposed to do. The idea is supposed to be the ideal of America, not so much in practice, but the ideal is that no person is above the law. And that includes former presidents. And so this whole notion, which they're resuscitated, and warning like, you know, again, if they can go after him, what do you think they'll do to you? It's like, well, they already do that to us.

They just generally don't do it to people like him. This would actually be kind of a nice change. Everything they say is absolutely backwards. And, you know, again, it goes back to all that stuff you were saying. It goes back to everything they do and say is projection. Mm-hmm. So as you noted, you know, they've got committees up there investigating Hunter Biden as if he's the gravest threat to national security that there ever were.

And they held hearing after hearing for Hillary Clinton, but now they whine about, you know, things being politically motivated. And again, it's because everything they do is a projection because everything they do is politically motivated. Then therefore, Alvin Bragg must be politically motivated. And call me crazy, but I would like to see the charges and I would like to see the evidence before I reach any kind of conclusion. And I guess it must be nice to not be hamstrung by thoughts like that and to just be able to go. out there and say, we believe Trump is fully innocent and these charges are politically motivated and baseless before having even seen the charges. There's something freeing about that. And I'm a little jealous that I'm not like that. Yeah, being unhinged and not living on Earth One and essentially

creating your own reality, it is very freeing. I think that there's also a DSM-4 designation for it. I mean, I'm not a doctor, but I call it crazy. I look at this and you see Jim Jordan going after Alvin Brag, you see Ron DeSantis going after Alvin Bragg. And it's just like, if Donald Trump and all of his associates were innocent, you wouldn't see them be convicted. You would see what exactly happened to Giuliani when he tried to bring all of these electoral fraud cases to the courts in 2020. He was laughed out of those courts because there was no legal merit. Basically what the Republican Party is saying is that if the legal system actually goes after a Republican, then the entire system is corrupt. And it's like, no, even your own Trump-appointed judges left out your electoral claims.

So if the basis for indictment around Donald Trump and his good, good call with Ukraine and his good-good call with the Secretary of State in Georgia and all of his good-good conversations with Stormy Daniels, if all of that shit was above the board, it would not have gotten to where we are with these grand juries. Because those judges would have been like, you're coming with nothing. It's weak sauce. But every single one of them have allowed these proceedings to move forward because there's evidence there. So I'm like, I don't know what their goal here as a party, is it just to undermine and corrode every single system that we have with their bullies? lies and alternative facts and their Trump fantasy so that there is just no trust at all.

You know, a thousand people have been either found guilty or pled guilty. Yes. Yes. It's just like, I don't know how you continue to have a functioning democracy when half of the population no longer believes in any form of rule of law. Like we don't have a foundation for shared accountability and responsibility. anymore. No, because we don't have a shared reality. And I think the answer to your question is yes, that is a lot of the goal of this is to undermine any faith in any of these institutions. And look, I'm not saying the left doesn't do this. The left has very good reason to undermine, I don't know if

undermine is the right word, but to point out how this country works and how cops work and all that stuff. But that's based in reality. That's the difference. What they're trying to do here is, again, they're making it seem like the deck is stacked against them when in fact, as if rich white guys aren't dealt a straight flush to begin with and then pretty much given the option of getting a royal flush on the cheap. But they would rather sit there and pretend that the system is what's screwing them other than the fact that they broke the law is what screwing them. And I'm old enough to remember when the Republicans claimed to be the party of personal responsibility. And when was that? I'm not saying they were.

I'm saying they at least claimed it. Look, we don't need to get in how old I am. That's just rude. But I was alive for it. And I think you were, too, to be honest. But now it is just, you know, it's the same rationale behind Kevin McCarthy giving the one-six tapes to Tucker Carlson. It's amazing to me that anyone falls for it, but I see it. I see it on Twitter.

I see it, you know, on the internet, I see people saying how much these tapes have proven that the January 6th committee was a sham and that all of this was politically motivated. And they do not want reality to be shared. They want to create their own reality. And they've managed to do that with the help of Fox News and a lot of the conservative media ecosphere. They have managed to create this alternative reality. And Kellyanne Conway told us this right from Jump when she very early in the Trump administration started talking about alternative facts. That this has been their goal. And so now what you do is if there's ever.

Evidence that Trump committed crimes. And look, we're only talking about Stormy Daners here. We haven't even gotten to Georgia. And all that stuff, which I hope to God is coming down the pike because that stuff is, in terms of the country, is a lot more serious than the Stormy Daniels stuff. But what they're doing is by calling this politically motivated and by, you know, casting doubt on this is they're also looking to the future. They're looking to cases that might be brought in Georgia or whatever. And it's going to be the same playbook. and they will have already convinced a decent number of people that this is the system,

this is the deep state, this is whatever, going after Trump. And so it just goes on and on and on. And then when you get to the more serious charges, the ones that literally where he tried to undermine democracy and tried to throw out a free and fair election, these people will be primed to not believe it and to think that it's all quote unquote politically motivated. And so, yeah, that is that is. their goal and unfortunately they've been not completely unsuccessful in it. They have been totally and completely successful, which is why we are here. And I just don't know with the division that we have,

the alternate facts that we live in, the disinformation that continues to swarm around all of us, how you put these pieces back together again. And I know that for those that say, well, then don't indict Donald Trump, that'll stop it. And I'm just like, had that motherfucker been indicted after the Mueller report, we wouldn't be here. The Republican Party wouldn't have turned into a cult. You wouldn't have had the storming of the Capitol building. Like, had he been held accountable earlier, we could have avoided all of this. But currently, they're putting up barricades all around New York right now, which is, you know, I guess good because maybe we wouldn't have had, again, the insurrection turned out the way that it did, had, oh, I don't know, the FBI, the CIA, the National Guard,

anyone actually pay attention to the organizing that was happening in plain sight. But if those people paid attention to the thousand people that pled guilty and that are sitting in D.C. jails or paying out really incredible fines, maybe they'll stay their asses home. But once again, Donald Trump isn't going to be held accountable for potentially starting a riot in New York City because, you know, free speech. Yeah, I'm not sure a riot in New York City is going to go the way he and his people want. But that does bring me to a point and I've seen idiots make this comment and I've also seen supposedly serious people make this comment that we need to be worried about them charging Trump because it may lead to riots in the streets. Bitch, you already did that. First of all, no, you don't get a heckler's veto if you break

the law. If you break the law, you break the law. If people are going to riot over it, then you have to deal with that. But that is not a reason not to charge someone with a crime if they have committed a crime. And I don't want to see that at all. That is absolutely ridiculous. It's not how shit is supposed to work. That's how things work in an authoritarian system where you don't charge someone because you know they're going to rally their, you know, their brown shirts or whatever their version of the brown shirts are out there to crack heads. And in a country that's supposed to be, again, run under a rule of law, that stuff cannot factor into charging someone. Yes, it can factor into how you arrest them.

And I don't believe for a minute, the shit that Trump was tweeting in all caps about that they were debating whether to have him do a perp walk in handcuffs. That's never going to happen. We are never going to see that. Honestly, as much as I would enjoy it, we don't need that. Really? Because I kind of do. I kind of do.

I kind of do. Look, if the outcome works out the way it should, I don't care how he was brought in. And, you know, we're seeing now on Reddit and other places, there are people who are claiming they're going to make like some sort of human shield or human moat around Mara Lago to prevent Trump from being arrested. I'm just like, all right, you know, you do you. Like, if that's what you want, go for it. And, you know, I'm pro protesting.

And again, if people want to protest this arrest, like peacefully protest. it, go for it. Like, you're idiots. These motherfuckers don't know how to be peaceful. They don't know how to be peaceful. Right. No, I agree. But I'm just saying I don't want to make it sound like, I'm like, you know, you can't protest this. Yeah, of course you can. You can protest anything you damn well want peacefully. But the proud boys and, and whoever else want to get out there and they're going to turn violent. Look, I hope that, obviously, I hope that doesn't happen. If it does happen, I hope they get the shit beaten out of them. But that is not a reason to not. charge someone with a crime and I just I don't want to hear it I'm so sick of it

sick of it Danielle folks I am very happy to be joined on the new abnormal for the first time I believe by my friend Katie Fang the host of MSNBC's Katie Fang show she is a legal analyst she is a brilliant mind and she was on air breaking the news about Donald Trump's impending indictment as news came down Katie as of this recording right now. We're still on indictment watch. And I want to start out with asking you the question that I was asking you off air, which is, I feel like I'm having a sense of deja vu. Because Donald Trump took to Truth Social to once again direct his rabid followers to New York, to his defense. And it felt to me like the call to action in his tweet that told us that January 6 was going to be wild. Tell me, if you are

I did something like that on a social media platform with millions of followers, what would happen? So I'd like to say that we would be treated the same as Donald Trump. And maybe at the end of the day, we would, and I'll explain that. First, I do want to say, thank you for having me, Danielle. Second thing I want to say is the thing that you missed from my introduction and the most important thing is that I'm a friend of Danielle Moody. So now that we have that out of the way. So the First Amendment, I'm going to say that to you. The First Amendment's always going to be your friend, but could it be your foe? Maybe. Could it be used against you? Most certainly later on if you were to go to trial. But Donald Trump, sadly, as we've seen, is given access to platforms that give him subsequent access to millions of

people to be able to spur them into action. But as you and I were talking about, there's currently a prosecution of hundreds of people that stormed the United States Capitol. on January 6th. Their crimes run, you know, the gamut in terms of severity and degrees of severity. But what is being found overwhelmingly by juries and judges is that these people, what I call the boots on the ground, the soldiers that he did that call, right? They are all being found guilty overwhelmingly because they've put forth defenses where they're blaming Donald Trump and saying he's the reason why I showed up and he's the reason why I stormed the Capitol. but those defenses are being rejected.

Judges and juries are telling these defendants, you're a grown man, you're a grown woman, theoretically you're competent, theoretically you're able to stand trial, and you made that decision on January 6th, if not earlier, to actually show up in D.C., right? But on January 6th, you made the decision to storm the Capitol and enter the Capitol

even though you weren't supposed to. The prosecution is in a really weird place in those cases. Because we all know Donald Trump told these people to show up. all know that he really kind of poured kerosene on the conflagration to get these people to show up on January 6th. But was it his right to do so under the First Amendment? Was his right to free speech allowing him to be able to say what he wanted to say? He said worse stuff, I think, in the time that he's been in office, if not before. That's always going to be the challenge to prosecute Donald Trump when it comes to the events on January 6th. I fully believe special counsel,

Jack Smith will be indicting Donald Trump for the Mar-a-Lago documents, mishandling of the classified documents. I know Fannie Willis is just around the corner with her indictment for the fake elector scheme. I also think Jack Smith is going to go after Donald scum for Donald Scum. Did I call him that? You said scrump. You said scrump. Well, I said scum. Donald Trump for the fake elector scheme. But in my very long-winded answer, the bottom line is yes, Donald Trump can post that on truth social. He can put that out there. If people show up, they may get arrested. They should be arrested. If they are violent. or if they do not heed what law enforcement tell them to do,

will they put forth a defense that Donald Trump told me to show up to protest to take back my country? Absolutely, they will. But like we're seeing on those January 6 prosecutions for the people that stormed the Capitol, that were going to be found guilty because blaming Donald Trump for what you ultimately do is not working for them. So let me ask you this, because, again, there are some things that I recognize since Donald Trump has been president that I thought were laws.

And I just realized they were just really strong suggestions. So I don't know when we say that we're not allowed to shout fire in a crowded theater, is that actually a law or is that just good practice of not riling up people in an enclosed space that has maybe two exits and then saying, oh, there's a fire? So you should be a lawyer because there are laws, but the facts that are applicable in each case have to be applied to laws. and that's how judges and juries come to their ultimate determinations, their verdicts, etc. I mean, if we could spend so long talking about this, Danielle,

these laws are in place because they have been determined to exist in two ways. One, through a legislator or a legislature that creates statutes and laws and puts them on the books. And two, how courts interpret these laws and make them into rulings that are binding law depending upon what jurisdiction you live in. The Supreme Court, highest court of the land, creates rulings that are applicable to all courts across the land. That's why they're the highest court in the land. But in the instance of the protection of free speech and the allowance for people to be able to say things that are deemed to be incendiary by people like you and me who are rational and thoughtful and would not go and do a

call to arms like we've heard from Donald Trump, free speech gives so much leeway so that we don't live in a muzzled land so that we don't feel like we are scared to say something out loud for fear of being punished, for fear of being thrown into jail. It's disgusting, and I hate to say this as another example, but you look at things like Alex Jones. Alex Jones continues to broadcast. He continues to say disgusting horrific things, not only about Sandy Hook, but about other stuff. he's allowed to do that because on the far end of that spectrum, you know, there are people that are saying things that he doesn't agree with. And so the law has given grace and perhaps a little too much, Danielle, for our liking. But if we're being intellectually honest, which we always should be, we need to keep our judgment in check and make sure that how we're looking at it still falls within the four quarters of what the law allows. And in this particular instance, in terms, in terms, of Donald Trump, it allows it. You know, Katie, I have to ask you this because this is something that people ask me

all the time on social media, which is how do we continue to have a functioning democracy if only half of the people are abiding by the rule of law? You have one party, the Republican Party, that uses law and order as their mantra when cops are abusing their power with excessive force and violence towards black and brown people. And then when, of course, the law and order is directed towards white insurrectionists, those cops, you know, they can go into the wind as far as the Republican Party is concerned. But the thing about America is that before Donald Trump, we were all operating under this same set of rules, set of norms that allowed our society to function for over 200 and plus years.

In your opinion, as a lawyer, as a legal analyst, what does it say about our future democracy, the strength of it if only half of the population decides that the rules apply to them? So I'll push back slightly with what you just said. I don't think this all kind of started in the Trump era. as you and I have talked about previously, the inequity has always been there. We've seen the cycles of just inequity that disproportionately affect people of color, that have disproportionately affected our communities of color for centuries, if not longer. I just think that with the election of Donald Trump, it kind of gave a sect of people carte blop to now say, I'm going to let that really bad freak flag fly. Yep. And that flag is not going to be one of, here's my disagreement with you.

Here's my opinion that may not sit at your dining table, but this is my opinion. And I'll respect to yours. There was this green light that was given to a sect of people that, one, scarily lived next door to us. And maybe we never really knew they were like that, but always kind of harbored these deep-seated feelings of racism and bigotry and xenophobia. and anti-Semitism and anti-LGBQ hate. They just thought it was more polite to hide it in public. And then they were like, well, gosh, if we have somebody in the Oval Office, who's the leader of the free world telling me it's okay to do it,

then I'm going to go and do it. I'm kind of getting back to your point about the law. This is why the Alvin Bragg prosecution is so important. And I tweeted this weekend, pushing back on the criticism that I heard, even on Saturday morning, during the midst of me covering the breaking news about Donald Trump posting on Truth Social

that he was going to be arrested tomorrow on Tuesday. I tweeted this out because I thought it was important. If we are rule of law people, Daniel, then we need to appreciate the prosecution of the former president of the United States, even if it's for Janewalking. Why? Because you and I would be prosecuted for that crime. Yes. Maybe a cop would exercise discretion and not do it, but we wouldn't get the same professional courtesy, right? And so I am glad that even though this is a, quote, old event, the payoff to storm Daniels to keep her quiet to influence the outcome of the 2016 election may have been years ago. You know, damn it, I am glad. If he's kicking his dog, he should be arrested and prosecuted.

I believe this is the beginning and the fall of dominoes that will create the opportunities for more serious offenses. Do I think it would have resonated more if it had been Jack Smith or Folly Willis or some other jurisdiction or prosecutor? Sure. But we, as in rule of law people, should sit back and just say, one, it is momentous that a former president of the United States for the first time in history is being prosecuted for a crime. But two, we were waiting for him to get out of office to prosecute him. That's what we did for years with the Mueller report on the Mueller investigation. We were waiting for him to be out of office so that he could actually be appropriately the subject of a criminal investigation and prosecution. So I think it is time that we say,

maybe there is half of America, Danielle, as you say, that doesn't believe that the laws apply to them. But those people believe in that man, Donald Trump, and now they are seeing the justice system being applied uniformly, regardless of who you are, the color of your skin and how much money you have, or in his instance, maybe he doesn't have. Let's put on the partisan hat for a second. Kevin McCarthy, Donald Trump's most esteemed lackey, tweets out now twice. again, as of this recording, saying that he's going to open up a house investigation into Alvin Bragg's investigation, going on with the same talking points. This is a witch hunt. How dare they? These are the same people that created an entire committee to hold Hillary Clinton when she was Secretary of State, essentially hostage for 11 hours of questioning that resulted

in nothing other than political theatrics. These are the same people. that were chanting, lock her up. But when Donald Trump became president, you didn't see any prosecution of Hillary Clinton or anyone because there is nothing to prosecute. So what do you make then of the fact that Republicans, if the ship of Donald Trump is going down, they are tying themselves to the bow? Well, Lackey is, I think the more accurate description for him, I would probably use some more impolite words if I could. What you're seeing here is we've already seen it in practice, in reality, that weaponization subcommittee that's being head up by Jim Jordan, it's completely neutered, it's ineffectual, it has no juice. They tried a hearing, it bombed. I think McCarthy is

doing the perfunctory kissing of the ring, which also suggests that Donald Trump still obviously holds a lot of power with the MAGA base, as well as the MAGA that are in Congress with the Kevin McCarthy and the Marjorie Taylor Greens and the Lord Boberts of the world. But the funny thing is the investigators thing. It's a fundraising grift ploy. It doesn't go anywhere, right? We've seen it. We've seen them think that they put teeth on that weaponization subcommittee.

They called an actual hearing. And then you had members of Congress, thank God, that have their, you know, the honesty and the truth behind them, like Dan Goldman, for example, right? You see them say, uh-uh, not on our watch and we're going to disprove it. Is it exhausting? Yes. Is it unnecessary? Yes.

But is it necessary for Democrats to have to push back like they do? Yes. But I do think you see as well, not as many people in the GOP are rallying to Donald Trump's defense right now. Kevin McCarthy may be the Speaker of the House, but you and I both know that that is name only. Come on. Right? He has no real power. And so, you know, it's funny. I see those tweets go out and I see the media coverage on it and I'm kind of like, eh, it's a day ending and why? You know, it'd be more noteworthy if he actually stood up. You see Mike Pence. Mike Pence on ABC yesterday saying, you know, it's terrible what's happening to Donald Trump right now with a politicization of the justice system. Are you joking? That was Bill Barr. This is a man that wouldn't get in his armored vehicle on January 6th because he didn't trust the driver because he didn't trust where he would be taken. That's the thing that I don't really get is that these people, Kevin McCarthy and Mike Pence as

examples, were a part of the insurrection. They were placed into harm's way because of Donald Trump and yet they still defend him. Question that I have for you, too, is that what the murmurings are is that this is what's going to drive Republicans to the polls because they're going to see Donald Trump be, you know, improperly targeted. And so that's going to drive them to the polls. Do you think that? I don't. I will temper my answer with the following, because I've thought a lot about this idea that Trump will now trade on his martyrdom status by fundraising and getting people to vote for him versus like a Ron DeSantis in the primaries. So here's the scary contemplation of what you've just asked. I can grab them by the blank tape came out prior to the 2016 election and they still voted

him into office. Okay? So that's why we need to be honest about if we say no, of course they won't vote for him after this. Well, I don't think that's really honest. I don't think that's true. But what I do think it's going to happen is this. The dam is about to break open. I do think it's a little absurd that it's starting with Alvin Bragg's office, of all offices, by the way. As you know, as the host of my show, I always ask legal analyst, which is the first investigation that's going to result in an indictment? None of us, me included, I'll point to me too. None of us, of us ever said Alvin Bragg's office. I thought it was going to be Georgia. I was like, Fawney, where are you? Let's go, right? Burn the damn house down. But it's Alvin Brack. And especially

coming on the heels of the Sy Vance pushing the ball, you know, kind of, I always refer to him sometimes as like Sisyphus, pushing the bow up the hill, having it rolled down. Him pursuing the Donald Trump stuff, it going nowhere. Then all of a sudden, Alvin Brack comes in, kicks out the top prosecutors all what I think are the stronger stuff, the overinflation of assets, the insurance fraud, tax fraud, et cetera. Well, look what happened. They prosecuted Alan Weisselberg, flipped. I didn't think you got enough time, but whatever. They successfully prosecuted the Trump organization, and now they're going after Donald Trump, not for the tax stuff, not for the overinflation, but for the Stormy Daniel payment. But he, as a Donald Trump, is going to be looking at multiple indictments. Yeah. He will be looking

at that as he enters into the, like, the real kind of getting into your paces on the 2024 rates. And that is what's going to do him in. It's not going to be the Stormy Daniels payment, being prosecuted by Alvin Bragg, it's going to be the rest of it. Because we do know that he lost footing. He slipped. He lost footing when all of the stuff happened with the Mar-a-Lago now that everything. And listen, even then, you hear the what aboutism and the false equivalency. Well, Joe Biden did it. Well, Mike Pence did it. Well, all these other people did it in terms of classified documents. But they didn't do what Donald Trump did. But the fake elector scheme, I mean, people are going to jail on it. people are being, losing their bar licenses on it. I mean, the fake electric scheme is a very big deal.

And that goes back to the 2020 election, which is around the presidential election. So I think a lot of people are looking for an excuse to not support Donald Trump, which is what makes Ron DeSantis so scary. And you and I could come back on another episode, hopefully, and talk about that because I live in Florida. Yep. There was a breaking news banner that came on my phone this morning. That said, like, breaking news, undercover agents go to drag queen show. And they don't see lewd conduct, but Rod DeSantis is going after them anyway. So you and I can talk about this a long of their time. But I think people are looking for a reason to not vote for Donald Trump. They don't want to lose face yet. But I think that as the damn breaks, it gives them more of a reason not to support him. So I don't wholesale believe in the idea that people are going to run to the polls to vote for him just because he gets indicted by Alvin Brack. Oh, Katie, we will have to leave it there today. But I tell you, this is going to be a hot week. And so I like. I know. I picked it. What a week to pick to go on vacation? You know what?

Do you want to know the last time it went on vacation? When? And I put vacation in quotes. It's when the FBI executed the lawful legal search warrant. It was not a raid. They executed the lawful legal search warrant on Mar-a-Lago and I was on vacation. Can you believe that? That's the last time.

And I was on TV the whole time for that. I want to say one last thing very quickly before we go. Because you, my friend, we talk about this every time you and I have done a podcast together. Actually, too, also when we do my show, you're a kick-ass guest. Vote. Yes. I said on another podcast the other day. We're so quick to blame Kevin McCarthy, Mike Pence, Marjorie Taylor Green, Lauren Boehbert, Matt Gates, I could keep going, Jim Jordan, you know, Mo Brooks. We're so quick to blame them. But there are people that got them into office in the first place enabled them and gave them the tools to do the stupidity that is

happening in D.C. right now. So you and I always talked about the power of the vote. And there was a time when the days were very dark, when we weren't sure. And I would always tell you, don't lose faith, Daniel, don't lose hope that we're going to pull this off. Joe Biden won, right? And we have our first black female Supreme Court justice on the bench. I mean, there's stuff that's happening that I think we always kind of lose sight of, but the voting is the most important thing. Vote. Vote to get the right people on office. Vote your school board people into office. Yes, decent too. Like do even the local voting. And I know I sound like a tired record when I say this, but we have to be honest that that's where the problem start. We put these people, not us, but

Americans put these people into office that are empowered with incredible tools to do such harm. But there's really no one to blame but the voters. Yeah. I mean, that concept was at grassroots, right? Let's start really there. And so if you haven't registered to vote, go and register, please. Because we have a lot of stuff that's at stake coming up in 2024. Katie Fang, my dear friend, thank you so much for making the time for the new abnormal folks.

If you're not watching Katie Fang on weekends at, oh, the time has changed. at 8 o'clock, 8 a.m. on MSNBC. Although I'm still up at 2.30. I am still up because I'm covering breaking news starting at 5. So I didn't get extra sleep. I'll tell you that. Thank you, friend. And we'll have you back soon. Thank you, my friend. I'll talk to you soon. Nothing is more abnormal than the rise of the radical right. Fever Dreams is a daily beast podcast taking you inside the rights push to retake power from the Maga Acolytes to the straight-up grifters. They recently released their 100th episode, so there's no better time to listen. Head to beast.pub slash fever dreams to check it out.

Jeff Charlotte teaches writing at Dartmouth College, has won multiple awards for his own writing, and is the author of seven books, including his latest The Undertoe, scenes from a slow civil war, which is out today. Jeff, thanks so much for joining us. Hi, Andy, thanks for having me. So in the intro to your book, you say that many of the stories contained within are about what you call performances of whiteness. Tell us what you mean by that. I began to realize that what I was paying attention to and politics and culture in the United States was what I thought was often overlooked. I mean, we all talk about Trump as a showman, but, you know, for instance, when I was covering Trump rallies,

I would see the press corps back in the metal pan in which you would keep them as a prop. And I just sort of went in as a regular person. So I wasn't, I was lucky to not be a part of that. And I would see them kind of tuning out when Trump would start to do long sketches, like sketch comedy, multiple voices, and oftentimes quite horrifying, as in one rally in Hershey, Pennsylvania, when he went on for about 20 minutes describing the different ways in which he claimed the undocumented people decapitate, disembowel, sexually assault, others, right? And none of that showed up in the press coverage because they were looking at it for serious politics. And you see this sometimes this phrase, he's just theater. I don't get the just.

Right. Theater is big. And from Harry Belfonte, who the first chapter is about, I came to understand that the American theatrical theme is what Harry calls. He says, the minstrel act, the minstrel corking up, putting black face on, stealing from black culture, performing whiteness by stealing from black culture. And I just realized that just runs like a nasty poison River through so much of our politics and our culture and it was there in all the stories. Yeah, it really is. And you really show that in the book. And it's funny because, you know, you mentioned Harry Belafonte, which is the first chapter or the first essay. And I was not

expecting that. You know, I was expecting like sort of an instantaneous dive into the world of Trumpism. And then all of a sudden here's this essay and interview with Harry Belafonte. And I didn't really get it until towards the end where he says, everything is just a minstrel show now. And I was like, oh, okay, this fits perfectly with the theme of the book. And it was sort of revelatory for me. So part one of the book is labeled it's about hope. And it's the essay on Harry Belafonte and one on Occupy Wall Street. And then part two is called On Vanity and moves us instantly through time and space from 2011, New York City to 2016 Youngstown, Ohio to a Trump campaign rally.

And it also jumps us from not only hope to vanity. but also, at least in my mind, from sort of the nonviolence of Harry Belafonte, who was a friend and confidant of MLK and the Occupy movement to the distinctly violent flavor of Trumpism. It's got you talking to people at the rally who are saying things like, I'm going to beat the shit out of him, talking about a protester, and get on CNN. And then someone's saying of Trump, he stands up there and says what we all think. We all want to punch somebody in the face and he says it for us. It's really quite a leap.

Yeah, I had originally organized the book chronologically, and I was going to begin actually with a chapter on a movement called the Men's Rights Movement, and I have 20 years. I mean, this book is sort of the fruits of 20 years of going to American right-wing movements. And I'm always fascinated by them because they tend to be more complex, not sweeter, but more complex than the caricature that we get in our liberal or secular or left world, except for the men's rights guys. They are actually dumber than their caricature and their character is probably as the and the dumbest. You know, they have these issues, but then you get to them and they're just sitting around talking about how much they hate their ex-wives or ex-girlfriends or the girlfriends they never had. So I was going to start with that. And it was too ugly and it was too brutal. And I also didn't think it was true. I didn't want to make a book about what I borrowing from my friend Jeff Rueff called the Trumpocene. And Trumpocene keeps going, by the way, the Sanders could win or Biden could win. We're still on the Trump scene just as we were age of Reagan for long after Reagan's presidency. I didn't want it to be sort of nihilistic because I don't

think it is. I think the situation is dire, but it's not without hope and to do that. You have to have the long struggle. So that's why a book ended it with Harry Belfonte. And at the end, there's another hopeful essay. It's like these two songs. And there's songs that are long forgotten. I mean, Harry Belfonte is not known by me as a great radical as he was, as the man who bankrolled the civil rights movement. And as a man who is still angry now because the movement he fought for, you know, if you're looking around and say, well, civil rights worked out just fine, then, you know, look again. But that move to jump into the violence of a Trump rally.

And I think you're right. I mean, you know, I'm sitting there actually that people talking about beating the hell out of them. It's not a protest that they want to catch a reporter and beat the hell out of them. And I'm standing next to them and we've been pressed against each other for hours because, again, I'm not part of the press. And I just, they're in the crowd, which means you get there six hours early and stand and wait and listen to the Trump playlist over and over. and is an old, you know, look like grandparents. They look so cute and cozy.

And their language is so vicious and vulgar that the old grandma says, looks to me and leans in and whispers about Hillary Clinton and says, don't she look like she's been road hard and put up? You know, and it's grotesque. And I thought, well, here is all the violence. Harry is nonviolent and he works hard to be nonviolence. It's not natural. But here is the violence of the clan that chased him.

Here's the violence. I don't write it in the Occupy chapter. I want that to be a little bit of a chapter of like, hey, remember there's a dream that you could have? People say what did Occupy in? I was there. The NYPD did occupy in. They came in massive force, took all the journalists out and crushed it. You know, that violence is just as much a part of the minstrel act as the ways in which some people sort of pretend and smile that everything's all right. You also write in the chapter about Trump. You say that Trump stoked emotions. like rage and violence. But the thing that you say that really struck me was, you say it didn't feel political. I thought this was a great phrase. It was similar to or it was of a piece with the tension that makes scripture endure. Yeah. I've been running about religion, you know, my whole writing life and I'm not a religious person,

but I am fascinated and often moved by the way and often horrified by the way people believe, right? And I think that was what I still think. It's amazing. here we are approaching 2024 and so much of the press corps is still not getting the religiosity of Trump because they're still saying, what? A thrice married philanderer and all this. And religiosity has never been synonymous with piety. He had the feel of the anointed, which is the one chosen. And you can tell they're chosen because they're such a bastard, right?

This guy isn't there by the virtue of his personality, but God working through him. And you saw that excitement in the rallies, especially because so many of the people who went to those rallies aren't actually churchgoing people. I mean, he has an evangelical base, but they're people who love the idea of churchgoing. And I had seen this reporting earlier in Russia where Putin enjoys a similar Christian nationalism, even though a tiny, tiny percent of Russians actually go to church. But they love the idea of Russia as the savior of Christianity and themselves as involved in this greater mission. And Trump is able to broadcast that as well in his crowds, receive it in the press looking for explicit religious language or piety again and again just misses it or writes it off. Yeah, it's amazing. And then we've even got it reminded me that just a few weeks ago, Trump at CPAC, a line from his speech was, I am your retribution. Yeah.

That's biblical. It's biblical as hell. I mean, come on. Yeah, I'm the wrath of God. Yeah. Most of the book is actually post-Trump. That's why it's called the undertow. What are these forces that bring us here that are coming from looking at this stuff for 20 years?

And you go back. And when Trump first started campaigning, I remember in 2015, I went around to my editors. And I said, let me go and report on this because I've seen the way the American right supports guys like this in other countries. And now it's finally come home, this kind of strong man model. And all my editors said, no, no, no, Jeff. Your stuff's kind of, we want someone really funny. And they don't know that wasn't funny enough. Do it because they thought Trump was just a joke and partly because they were mistaking his chaos for comedy, right?

And there was a bestselling book at the time called God's Chaos Candidate by a man named Lance Walna who became one of his verbally evangelical backers. And is very clear what Trump is. Trump is a wrecking ball. It is chaos. It is meant to destroy. It is not, you know, think of the biblical passages where Jesus says, I come not to bring peace, but the sword. I come in the biblical sense to fuck things up. That's what's happened.

And I think that the American evangelical movement changed to accommodate to Trump. Trump changed. I mean, and they're in a call and response. And now it is on a war footing. And, you know, that's sort of the second half of the book is where I'm traveling out of these churches that are actually arming up, forming the wishes, getting ready for not spear of. a war, but actual war. But before I get to the second half of the book, I want to, you write about Trump and you give it a sort of prosperity gospel theme.

And then you write about prosperity gospel preacher, pastor Rich Wilkinson, Jr. Then you have the men's rights activist Paul Elam. And then you double back to Trump's second campaign. And you sort of move from the prosperity gospel comparisons to talking about Trump as sort of an updated Gnosticism, which I found absolutely fascinating. Yeah. I think that was fascinating, too, is that once he's a lot of. start understanding the religious currents that make the United States this sort of weirdly the most

religious of the major developed nations by far, right? So then you got to start asking yourself theological questions. So in 2016, I really thought the driving force was prosperity gospel, which is for those not familiar with it, this idea that God wants you to be rich. And the way you can show your faith in God is by giving money to your preacher. And if your preacher is driving a Rolls-Royce, those blessings are going to trickle down on to you. And you. And you can show you. And You know, remember Ronald Reagan in trickle-down economics. It had a predecessor in trickle-down religion. And Trump was a perfect model for that, right?

You know, Trump would fly in on his personal Trump force one, and the crowd would just be giggling with one another about all its gold fixtures and the dream that this could come to them, right? So Trump gets like 2016 and, you know, American carnage and by 2020, things are very predictably dark. He promised American carnage and he delivered. Yeah. First of all, he can't do the prosperity gospel again because they need to have to admit that he didn't make you rich.

Right. So you're rich now. You're done so much winning. Now there are secret enemies, right? And so noxicism, and I want to emphasize, this is bastardized narcissism because plain Pagel's, the great scholar of this, got win that I had referenced this. And having read the article sort of said, how dare you say that? Oh, no. No, it's a bastardized narcissism of the secrets within.

the idea that only a special elect can really know how things really work and that the official institutions are what ancient narcissism would call dry canals and that everything is code. Everything is code. And in 2020, that was the Trump campaign. I mean, it was a Q&N campaign. Not quite as much as now. He's gone deeper. Yes.

It had taken such a dark and frightening turn. How could it not in the midst of a pandemic, in the midst of so much. death. So it was a death message. Yeah. And it's this Q&N idea that there are these dark, unseen forces that are controlling our lives. And as you say, Trump proved very comfortable playing in that sandbox. He's a paranoid man. I don't care that much about Trump and versus like a lot of the Trump books out there that sort of, you know, I've got access to this unnamed Trump official or actually got to sit down with Trump a little bit. I don't care. I read those books. But I'm interested in what academics would call reception.

I'm interested in everyday people, how the message gets heard. And that means I have to pay attention to how Trump tells it. And I had to pay attention to, you know, when you look at his speaking style, and this is going to piss people off. But Trump is sort of one of the two best orders I've ever heard, the other thing, Obama, absolutely different styles. But what some here as Trump's inarticuliness is a kind of mastery of the crowd. And he can pivot.

And he's sort of drawing on all these old comedy techniques. If you watch a speech silent, you're seeing a Bushbell comedian. Exactly. But just like that comedy, which used to turn on this formula, right, of funny because it's sad, sad because it's funny, post-Holocast Jewish comedy in America, right? It was dark. This is funny because it's angry, angry because it's funny. And it's always moving back and forth. And so he was able to pivot toward the paranoia of Q&N quite naturally because that.

anger and paranoia was always part of his comic formula. Yeah, it really is unreal. I want to jump to where, you know, you write about Ashley Babbitt and the events of January 6th, and then you write about sort of the reaction to her death and how it became sort of a rallying cry for a lot of the QAnon folks and the people and the Trumpists and the people of that ilk. In a footnote, in that chapter, you talk about how in writing your 2008 book that was later turned into a Netflix series about the Christian nationalist movement called the family, that in that book you wrote that they didn't merit being described as fascist and that you believe that the commitment to the idea of Christ would keep Christian nationalism from going full fascist. You then say you were wrong.

And I noticed in the press release for the book, you actually say that that's why you wrote this book. Yeah. And, you know, I should say, like writing about the family, when I say Christ would prevent them from going full fascist, I also said there's more than one kind of bad under the sun. And I'd always been sort of frustrated by, look, I'm a lefty writer. But folks on the American left sort of attributing fascism to every kind of American bad. And like, no, there's, in fact, I think it's really important for us to understand the varieties of reaction and repression and so on. If you don't know, you know, no lie enemy, right? And also know where the fault lines are.

So for a long time, I thought, look, this isn't fascist. These guys that I was writing about back in 2008, they were supporting fascists over. But they had this line, this commitment to establishment power in the United States that created all kinds of awfulness. Reagan, I think, was awful for America. W, the death in Iraq. But there was an American and the Christian right, especially, you know, you couldn't have that cult of personality and you couldn't have that open embrace of violence because you still had to proclaim love, even if it was aggressive, and you still had to proclaim God King.

I was wrong. I didn't think that that would break down in the United States. It did. And Trump is, I think, properly understood. And yes, in the old European sense, but also in a new American sense, as fascism. Not fascism just because he's bad, not fascism, just because he's mean. Fascism because he combines a cult of personality with a reverence and pleasure and violence, with extreme nationalism and with a paranoia of enemy within. and most of all a kind of phony populism that represents itself as for the working man, you know, the socialism of fools, as anti-Semitism has long been called, but remains loyal to big business and corporate power.

It's amazing how quickly they went from not crossing that line to suddenly deciding it was okay to cross that line and, you know, with Trump as the flashpoint. The last section of the book is concerned with people who are readying themselves for the slow civil war that you reference in your title to kind of speed up, or at least that's how I took it, or for a cold civil war to become a hot one. There's a lot of talk of guns. There's a lot of talk about, you know, just being ready. Just to tie this to current events, what's your level of concern that a potential arrest of Trump, which again is, at this point is still hypothetical, could be a flashpoint for this cold civil war turning hot? I don't think I don't think it's a I have no concern

that the flashpoint cold civil war turning hot on the other hand the cold civil war is actually at a simmer people say are we can have a civil war the answer is we are right we're in one now there's weekly skirmishes between around the country you know so much this doesn't get national press proud boys fighting drag queen defenders proud boys attacking ghoul libraries hospitals shut down my hospital here has been shut down multiple times for threats. The number of Q&ONM murders. You hear a few of these national ones is far more. If you start sort of scanning the local press and then compound that by Q&N-related assaults, Q&N attempted murders, Q&N kidnappings of children, you see a lot of crime, and then everywhere. And what I did for the book was when Ashley Babbitt, who was the insurrectionist

who was killed as she was climbing through a broken window in the capital, a white woman killed by a black cop. And the second I saw that on January 6th, I knew what they were going to do because it's an old American story. It's the lynching story, the evil black predator and the virtue of white womanhood. This is the story that underlays so many lynchings. There's a story of DW Griffith's famous movie, The Birth of a Nation, which is also the birth of Hollywood in many ways. And so I followed not so much her story as the martyr myth and the making across the country. And what astonished me after 20 years of crisscrossing the country were putting on the rights, I've seen lots of guns. I'm a gun owner myself. I'm not terrified of guns. I've never seen so many guns. Everywhere I went, and especially in churches. First church I went to. Had tidings. You the city, California. They've got a militia. Lord of hosts in Omaha, Nebraska. They've got a militia, and the militia escorted me out with threats. You go to a restaurant. I went to Lauren Bobert's restaurant in Colorado. They're all open carrying there, but you can go anywhere and you can find guns. It's, it's, it's arming up.

And I will say it's mostly the right, but not only the right. And that's why I include in the Great Acceleration, a group of really lovely young people, who are on the right place, young folks in a small town, Wisconsin, very furious women and queer folks who are upset about the ways in which they are very literally under attack. And that's a slow war, too. I mean, there's states now where it's not safe to be a queer person or a trans. Absolutely. That's slow civil war.

And some of those people are arming up to. And we know enough from the political scientists who study how civil wars happen around the world to say that we've got all the ingredients and we're kind of slowly stirring them in the pot right now. The book is The Undertoe Scenes from a Slow Civil War by Jeff Charlotte. And it's out today, actually. I couldn't recommend it more. It's an absolutely fascinating read. Jeff, thanks again for coming on. Thank you, Andy.

Good to talk with you. Andy Levy. Danielle Moody. Andy, how are we seeing? starting out this week with your fuck that guy. We're starting out pretty good, I think. We spent an entire segment talking about the potential arrest slash indictment of Donald Trump. And I want to touch on something that's come up sort of related to that, but it's a tangential point. And it's this notion that was put forth by people like Mike Pence in an interview on Sunday, I believe. And he

said when there's a crime wave in New York City, the fact the Manhattan DA thinks inditing President Trump is his top priority tells you everything about the radical left. First of all, Alvin Brague, the radical left, please. But beyond that, that's not my main point. My main point in this fuck that guy segment is Mike Pence, fuck you, there is not a crime wave in New York City. This year, crime is actually down. As we speak, crime is down from where it was last year. Violent crime, murder, et cetera, all down from last year. As author Kurt Anderson pointed out on Twitter, if you want to talk about the most violent cities in America, Indianapolis from Mike Pence's home state of Indiana ranks 12th. New York City, I believe, ranks 59th. And also if you look at

Ohio, home of JD Vance, there are numerous cities in Ohio that have higher crime rates than New York City. So let's talk about that. This is a huge talking point now on the right. And they love making New York City seem like this dystopian hellhole because it just plays into everything their base loves, which is hating coastal elites. Unless they want to see a fucking show. Yeah, they're hating people of color, hating Jews, everything that New York City is associated with in their mind. So they love hearing that there's a crime wave in New York City. Even though there's not. a crime wave in New York City. So my fuck that guy goes to the Mike Pence's and the J.D. Vances and everyone else pushing this completely false narrative that there is a crime wave in New York City,

which there just ain't. And after we finish this podcast, I am going to go out and I'm going to ride the subway and I'm going to get me some damn pizza just to prove that I can do that and make it home safely. I hate them all. So who's your fuck that guy, Daniel? Well, and it's thank you so much for asking. It was a tough call. My fuck, that guy is actually two states as opposed to two people, but that's where we are. Wow. So first up to bat is Wyoming, which ahead of the Texas ruling on Mitha Pristone, which is the abortion pill that is widely used for medical abortions, miscarriages and the like, which was approved by the FDA 20 years ago, is up for a ruling out of Texas because the conservative, fascist, white evangelical Christians, cherry-picked their judge in order to get Mitha-Pristone pulled off the shelves and continue to endanger more than half of the population that has a uterus.

So Wyoming has decided to, say, hold my beer to Florida and Texas and take the first step to be the first state to ban Mifapristone ahead of this Texas ruling. On top of that, coming in at a near second is another state that I'm saying, fuck you two, which is Idaho. Now, why Idaho? Well, let me tell you. Because evidently, according to the Idaho statesman, which is their paper, an Idaho hospital that services about 9,000 people, Bonner General Health, which is a hospital in Sandpoint, is going to stop. Everyone, wait for this. They're going to stop delivering babies.

They're going to stop delivering babies. What? Yes. Let me read you what the hospital's board president has said. Quote, we have made every effort to avoid eliminating these services, said Ford, Alacier, the hospital board president in a press release. Quote, we hope to be the exception, but our challenges are impossible to overcome now. He goes on.

Without pediatrician coverage to manage neonatal. resuscitations and perinatal care. It is unsafe and unethical to offer routine labor and delivery services. BGH has reached out to other active and retired providers in the community, requesting assistance with pediatric call coverage with no long-term sustainable solutions. So essentially, what this town in Idaho has recognized and it has become the kind of example for what is going to go down across the country is that pediatricians, obstetricians, are leaving the field. We are losing doctors because they don't want to go to jail. They don't want to be forced to go against their medical oath to do no harm for fear of Republican weaponization of their

power in that state, for politicians, not doctors, to decide whether people with uteruses and babies live or die. So they are fleeing the fucking industry. And because of this, this hospital, which will now force 9,000 residents to go to the next nearest hospital, Andy, which is 46 miles away. Jesus. So this is what the Republican Party is doing, what they're allowed to do. Because again, states' rights only matter if you.

are a red state. If you are a blue state, then the courts have the ability to come in and do what they did in New York around guns, which is overturned a hundred year of precedent as it pertains to New York being able to establish its own gun laws. So now you have hospitals, and this will not be the last time that we talk about this, that are going to be forced to shut down services for delivering babies because of fear. This does not look like or sound like a democracy. This looks and sounds like some shit that you would read about

in underdeveloped countries or authoritarian regimes in places like, oh, I don't know, Afghanistan with the Taliban or the Iranian regime. Yep. That's what this sounds like. So, you know, for that,

it's not even I'm saying fuck that guy to the hospital. No. Because I'm saying fuck that guy to the state that this hospital is in that is forcing them to make just an unimaginable decision. Yeah. First, I have a question for you. Would it make you feel any better if you knew that the governor of Wyoming signed the abortion pill ban? And he said, I have acted without bias and after

extensive prayer. Does that make you feel better? Andy, do you want me to scream? I'm sensing it doesn't. I'm sensing it doesn't. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Let me pray on that. get back to you. Okay. And as far as the Idaho thing goes, yeah, of course, you can't blame the hospital. You can't blame the doctors for not wanting to work in that kind of environment. We've seen stories, I think they were out of Texas, where doctors were basically forced to stand by helplessly as women are in what I can only imagine is ungodly pain because the doctors are afraid that if they do anything, they will be charged with performing abortions. And I was trying to imagine if this were a surgery, and that's what abortion is, it's a surgical procedure.

If this were a surgical procedure that a dude needed, there is no way in hell that any kind of law would be passed that would make doctors afraid to perform that surgery. And it's just, it's fucking frightening. And, you know, it's interesting, like you brought up the Taliban. And again, this is a theocracy. And the fact that the governor of Wyoming said he made this decision after extensive prayer. That's not comforting. That's not comforting. I don't want leaders. I'm sorry. Again, nothing against religion, but keep it out of the laws. Just, oh, fuck these guys. Yeah, fuck all of them. I don't want your prayer. Do you know what I would prefer? A degree in medicine, right? Yeah, that seems to work better.

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