The Daily Beast Podcast - Trump’s Nazi Rally at MSG Perfectly Reflected ‘Republican Values’

Episode Date: October 29, 2024

Jay Willis, the editor-in-chief of nonprofit legal journalism outlet Balls & Strikes, joins the program to discuss why Elon Musk has gone all in on Trump. Plus! A conversation with Phoebe Petrovic, an investigative reporter with the nonprofit outlet Wisconsin Watch, about her latest piece: “The genesis of Christian nationalism: How the religious right came to influence the 2024 election.” Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits pretty comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. What an excellent show we have today. Jay Willis, the editor

of Balls and Strikes, is here to give us a deep dive on Elon Musk and why he seems so eager to help Trump win, but more importantly, why he needs him to win. Then we'll talk to ProPublicas Phoebe Petrovich about her recent piece, the genesis of Christian nationalism, how the religious right came to influence the 2024 election. But first, let's have some fun. So, Danielle, I feel like I've opened the show a couple times recently talking about how I have a browser tab that just says Nazi shit. Today's a little different because I have a browser tab that just says Nazi rally. Oh, that's nice. Yeah.

Shout out to Donald Trump and the Republicans for letting me get out of my rut, I guess. But obviously, I'm talking about the rally that was held here in New York City at Madison Square Garden Sunday night, which was, I would say every bit as awful as expected. If not possibly more, I guess let's just sort of take it in order because it started with a comedian named Tony Hinchcliff telling jokes about black people in watermelon. And then moving on to describing Latinos as basically mindless breeders making a joke about that. And then calling Puerto Rico a, quote, floating island of garbage. This, needless to say, got a lot of. play and Danielle, I'm going to guess you don't have strong feelings about any of this. It's just a sense that I have.

This doesn't strike me as the kind of thing that really rubs me the wrong way. Yeah, yeah. But prove me wrong. Debate me, bro. Okay. I'm going to try and get through this without just doing a primal scream, which is how I felt watching the coverage of this Nazi rally. that took place at Madison Square Garden.

First off, I think that this was one of the most notable signs of terrorism from this campaign that I think that we have seen since it started. Donald Trump and Republicans have alluded to white supremacy and white nationalism have been a bit nuanced over the state. the course of the last several years and how they frame their commentary. When Donald Trump is asked about white supremacy and to disavow it, he famously told the white supremacist militia to stand back and stand by. When, you know, the march happened in Charlottesville where the Nazis were screaming, Jews will not replace us. Donald Trump embraced them and said that they were good people

on both sides. He has sat down to dinner with Nick Fuentes, a known white supremacist and Kanye West. He has said to a group of Jewish people that if he does not win re-election, the Jews will be to blame. Donald Trump and every single one of his followers want a white nationalist version of America that is deeply rooted in their twisted and warped idea. regarding the Bible and regarding evangelicalism. And what was on display was just unadulterated hate. There were no jokes that were said. So I don't even want to create this notion that because somebody puts on their

resume that they're a comedian, that anything that comes out of their fucking mouth is funny, right? And that's some way to soften the absolute vitriol that that motherfucker was. spitting the entire time that he was on stage. It's not a joke. Nothing that Donald Trump has said over the last nine years is a joke. Stephen Miller being up on that stage is another known white supremacist that he wants to put in charge of quote unquote, their immigration deportation plans isn't a comedian.

So I think that this was probably the biggest display of white terrorism, domestic terrorism and hatred that we have seen. seen since January 6. But January 6, you could have even said like, oh, well, that was, you know, about the election and they were hopped up, you know, on the election lie and that being stolen from them. AOC was on MSNBC and she was very clear and articulated very clearly that this was about priming Donald Trump's audience and base for a wave of violence following this selection. And it was disgusting. And yeah, those are my initial thoughts, Andy, without me screaming full-fledged into the microphone. No, I actually think you did a really good job.

I, uh, 100% agree with everything you said. I'm finding it, I'm going to use the word funny, except I'm not laughing when I say this, but I'm finding it funny that there are now a bunch of Republicans scrambling to disassociate themselves with the things that were said about Puerto Rico. Not the watermelon joke, though, right? No, no, no, no. I haven't heard anything. Yeah, so they're very specific about their denouncements, but it's only about the slate of voters that are very prevalent in the actual states that they want to win.

But black people and their overt racism, they're, fuck that. They're good with that. Got it. Correct. And the reason I wanted, when I introed this, the reason I wanted to bring up the watermelon, quote-unquote, joke was because I do feel like it's being completely forgotten about and overlooked. And I don't think it should be. I want to talk about a congresswoman in Florida, Republican congresswoman named Maria Elvira Salazar. She tweeted that she was disgusted by Tony Hinchcliffe's comments. And then she said, I love this phrase. She said, this rhetoric does not reflect GOP values.

Give me a break. And I've seen that numerous times now since the rally. I have seen numerous Republicans out there saying exactly that. And honestly, I think these, you know, Bedlam was a famous psychiatric hospital in England. And it did all kinds of horrible experiments to people back in like the 19th century and earlier than that. I really do think that if you are at the level of delusion to think that this rhetoric does not reflect GOP values, you are very lucky you're not living in 19th century. Britain because you would have had horrible experiments done to you in Bedlam because you would have absolutely been locked up as a delusional maniac. And they can't be allowed to get away with it. And that's why I want to highlight it. Because nothing that was said at that rally last night, not a single thing that was said at that rally last night. Not a single disgusting, hateful, racist, bigoted thing that was said does not reflect GOP values. Those are GOP values in. the year 2024. We know this. And to sit there and try to say, even the Trump campaign now is,

you know, you know things are bad when the Trump campaign has to come out and say that what Tony Hinchcliffe said does not reflect the views of President Trump or the campaign, which again, well, that's a lie. And that's a lie right up there with this rhetoric does not reflect GOP values. Of course it does. And of course it reflects the views of President Trump and the Trump campaign. But the fact that they have had to come out and say that, I do think gets to something that happened with that rally last night. And that is that, you know, I said last time, I think it was last episode, when I talked about actually feeling, you know, a little good about Kamala Harris winning. And this gets to that. I think what we saw last night,

And what's being reported out of what happened last night, I think helps Kamala Harris and possibly helps her a lot. I want to be hopeful. I really do. I want to be hopeful in the fact that there were still a considerable amount of people in this country that were thinking about sitting this election out, that we're thinking about voting third party. I don't know how much more information that you need at this point, right?

But maybe it was the imagery of Madison Square Garden filled with the most deplorable group of degenerates that this country has to offer. Maybe it was that. Maybe people need to see and understand that it isn't just a handful of crackpots in a handful of red states that you probably wouldn't visit if you were given a free plane ticket to. Right? Like maybe that's it. But the fact is, and I have to say this, that as a black woman, as a queer woman, as a woman whose family came to this country in the 1970s seeking like a better life, the fact that people needed like just one more thing to see to showcase how racist and misogynist and disgusting and evil these people are is mind blowing to me. Like it's fucking mind blowing and it's insane. insulting, frankly, that for nine years, I have felt like I've had to do multiple different

types of tap dances and euphemisms and conversations to articulate how dangerous these people are. But maybe it just takes them being as clear with their base and as articulate as they can possibly be in saying that we need to slaughter our enemies, that the enemy is within. Donald Trump getting up there and talking about 1778 or whatever the year is that is his favorite new year now. That is a year before women could vote. And the years when black people were considered chattel in this country, three-fifths of a human being. That's what that entire audience was cheering about. Bring us back to those days.

So it just is mind-blowing to me that the alarm has been ringing about Donald Trump and the Republican Party for nine goddamn. years. But it's not until they have to say it in their own words. We've had how many media outlets say, I don't know what's in Donald Trump's heart or this is racially tinged language? Like, give me a fucking break at this point. One of the things that was very noticeable in the coverage coming out of this was a lot of those outlets that you were just talking about, Danielle, when you said, you know, use phrases like racially tinged, we're not using those phrases. And we're using the actual word racist and we're using the word misogynist. And again, most people in this country do not care what the New York Times says about anything. So I'm not equating the two things. I do think,

however, that, well, look, obviously, I agree with you fully that it shouldn't come to this. And regardless of who wins this election, we need a big old reckoning with a lot of what this country is made up of because as you said, the fact that this is even close, we cannot, if hopefully Kamala Harris wins, we cannot say, who we really dodged a bullet. No, we have got to figure out what the hell is going on with damn near half this country. But anyway, my point is, I think a lot of what we heard last night was so over the top and so obviously anyone that is in the MAGA base, it was catnip to them. I'm not sitting here saying anyone in that MAGA base is suddenly going to say, oh, no, this is not what I signed up for.

I just have to think that the stuff we heard coming out of there, and not just this comedian, you know, it was every speaker. I mean, it was Tucker Carlson talking about Kamala Harris, calling her a Samoan Malaysian low-eye Q person, which none of those three things are true. But I think hearing that stuff, hearing the way they talk about her, as if she is some kind of absolute knuckle-dragging moron, when it is very obvious to, I think, most people who see her speak or whatever, that she's not. That she's a bright person.

And I'm not saying you have to agree with her in anything, but you don't look at that person and think, God, she's stupid. And to see them talking about her in these degrading terms, which obviously have their roots in both racism and misogyny, I have to think that there are people out there who are on the fence who are like, well, I want my taxes lowered. And, you know, I'll kind of turn a blind eye to some of the stuff that they say. But I have to think that hearing them talk about things in the way they talked about them last night, that this is not good for whatever undecided voters, for whatever, quote unquote, independent voters are still out there who haven't made up their mind or who maybe had softly made up their mind or were leaning

towards Trump. We could find out next week that I'm very wrong about this, but I really do think that there's a good possibility that what we saw last night, is if this is the closing statement of the Trump campaign, I don't think it was a success. One of the most egregious things was what Donald Trump said outwardly about stealing the election and the little secret that he has with Speaker Mike Johnson. And I think with our little secret, we're going to do really well with the House, right? Our little secret is having a big impact. He and I have a secret.

We'll tell you what it is when the race is over. I also... Yeah, this is bad. I mean, I have to say, when I first heard it, I thought, you know, it sounded like a commercial for like an air freshener. It's like, you know, well, we have a little secret. I'm going to do really well in the house. But no, he was obviously, he was talking, as you said, to Speaker Mike Johnson, who was in the audience, having himself earlier spoken at the Nazi rally. And I'll leave it to our listeners to say what that makes him.

But I will say this. Part of me thought he was trolling. when he said that and that he wanted to get the reaction of us and not, well, maybe specifically you would be, Daniel, I don't know. Yeah, obviously. But that he just wanted a reaction. He wanted everyone to be going, what's the little secret? What's a little secret?

And that there isn't a real, a little secret. I don't know that I buy that, but part of me thought it. But this is bad. I mean, this is bad in so many ways. And look, we already saw how. close we came four years ago on January 6th to a free and fair election being overturned or put on hold, however you want to describe it. And we already know that Mike Johnson was not Speaker of the House at the time, but was one of the architects of the Stop the Steel movement. And so none of this can be

taken lightly. And I guess the only hope here is the fact that Trump couldn't keep his big mouth shut will alert people to people who are in a position to figure out what this is and hopefully do something about it, that it will alert them to this rather than it being a January surprise or a November surprise at whatever month they try to pull, whatever shit they try to pull. But it's bad. It's just bad. I don't know what else to say. Everything is so bad. It's so bad, Andy, but it can always get worse. That's the new American slogan. So breaking news is that ballot boxes have been set on fire in Washington and in Oregon, specifically the Clark County elections ballot drop box at Fisher's Landing Transit Center

was lit on fire at the time of this recording in the morning. The auditor, Greg Kimsey, says hundreds of ballots were inside at the time, the last pickup being at 11 a.m. on Saturday. This is not normal. This is not normal. And this is happening across this country. And it is, we all saw this coming, everybody that was paying attention. So the goal here is terrorism, whether it is a hate rally at Madison Square Garden,

whether it is lighting ballots on fire. They do not want to win this election. They want to take it by any. means necessary. And that's everything that's being laid out. Yeah, as far as the one in Portland, I'm just reading the Associated Press Report. Obviously, this will all be, by time you all listening to this, this won't be breaking news anymore, but it is to us right now. And the reports are that the ballot box in Portland, that an incendiary device have been placed inside it. So, you know, we're not looking at, oh, maybe someone made a mistake or some fire happened to accidentally. I think it's

fair to call this terrorism. And what you said earlier, Danielle, you said they're not looking to win an election. They're looking to steal an election. I think that's true. I do think they're looking to win an election. I do think they are pretty sure they're not going to win the election. And that's why we're seeing more and more and more of this as we go on. And look, we're a week out from election day. And unfortunately, that is plenty of time for all of this to just be a drop in the bucket. And we just have to. a hope that turns out not to be the case. You said this is not normal. And that's the thing, is that there's no way to look at this and say, ah, you know, well, these things happen. It's an election.

Tempers are flaring. No. None of this is normal. None of this is something that we have really experienced before in this country. And, you know, there's always a question people ask, you know, online when you see stuff like this. And they say, if you saw this happening, another country, what would you think? Mm-hmm. And we all know what we would think. We would think, oh, those savages, those, you know, those poor people who are stuck living in a country where they can't even have an election without violence and without cheating

and without, you know, threats and violence. And we are that country. Again, I said we need to have a reckoning regardless of who wins this election. And this is the kind of thing that I am talking about. We are that country. This is not stuff happening in a faraway land that we can shrug off or look down on and say, you know, talk about how great it is that we don't live in a country like that. We do live in a country like that. Yeah, there's no one to look down on, you know, look in the fucking mirror.

Like there's no, there's no country to look down on at all. There should have never been. But this is a banana republic. This is what happens when you allow a dictator. a fascist punk to take over our body politic and everyone, including corporate media, look the other fucking way and just allow this to continue to fester and take root. Like ballot boxes being burned? What do we expect on election day?

This is the shit that they did during Jim Crow. This is exactly what they did. And it's just going to continue to get worse. The biggest election of our lifetimes is less than a month away. and the news is only going to get crazier and more important as the countdown continues. As each day brings new headlines and critical campaign updates, the future of the country may be decided by the stories that cut through the noise and capture our attention during the next few weeks.

If you want to stay informed through all of the twists and turns, the Daily Beast's new daily newsletter, October Surprise, is the reliable resource you're looking for. It will keep you in the know on everything that's happening as we race toward election day. Sign up now at beast. Pub slash October surprise. Beast. Pub slash October surprise. By now you've all seen Elon Musk's ridiculous antics out on the campaign trail with Donald

Trump, including an appearance at Sunday night's Nazi rally Redux at Madison Square Garden. And you probably know that Musk's super pack is given upwards of, I believe it's $75 million to Trump's campaign. Here to tell us why Musk is going all in on Trump is the editor-in-chief of the indispensable Ballsandstrikes.org, Jay, thanks so much for being here. Thank you for having me. Combining my usual beat of legal journalism and Elon Musk just caused in my brain to appear the phrase Supreme Court Justice Elon Musk. And it's one of those where sometimes a curse sequence of words appears in your head. And the only way to deal with it

is to give it to others. So that's my gift to you, to all of your listeners. You're welcome. Okay, thanks for the It Follows Curse. So yeah, usually when you're on here, we talk about, I guess you could say one group of assholes. And instead today, that would be the Supreme Court. And instead today, we are talking about another asshole or dipshit, as Tim Walls likes to call him. Elon Musk. You wrote a piece about him for Fast Company. And the headline was, move fast and break democracy.

The real reason Elon Musk needs Donald Trump to win. And I want to get into the more obvious group. groups of reasons you talk about before getting to the one that you highlight that we don't think about enough. And let's start with ideology. And by that, I mean, the simple fact that, as you say, Musk agrees with Trump and Maga's xenophobia, sexism, transphobia, grievance politics, we can throw in racism and anti-Semitism, and a whole lot more than that. That's the first obvious reason, right? Yeah, I mean, I think that it's hard to, I don't think there's any way you can really like overestimate the extent to which Musk's brain is steeped in right wing media.

And now specifically the right wing media ecosystem that he's curated for himself, right? Like part of his ostensible reason for buying Twitter for turning it into this fire hydrant of misinformation is it was his position that, you know, the mainstream media was getting things wrong and his engine of free speech could fix it. As with all sort of right-wing activists, that's just really coded language for like that the conservative adjutop is the news are his headlines now. And I really think that's all he absorbs. So, you know, he hears Trump up on stage doing all of his various forms of bigotries and is and thinks like, yeah, that's my guy. That's the agenda with which I agree.

And in talking about his businesses, which I know we'll get to, I really don't want to downplay any of that. Musk is a racist. He is a bigot. He is a xenophob. He is a transphobe. All of those awful things. I think there is also more to his support of Trump, though. And that stems from some of his business missteps. Let's put it that way. Okay. So before we get to the business missteps, because, and that is what the meat of this interview will be about, don't worry, Jay. But I just want to lay out the other stuff so people know that you're not and I'm not overlooking them. So the second obvious reason that Musk is supported. Trump is power, comma, access to. So lay this one out. What exactly does a second Trump term mean for Musk in terms of access to power? I'll speak generally first and then specifically. So one of the conservative movement's main goals, thus one of the Republican Party's main goals, thus one of Trump's ad hoc accepted goals as the chosen mouthpiece for the Republican Party, is the continued destruction of the administrative state, the expansion of a deregulatory agenda that will make it

easier for people like Musk to make money while cutting legal corners, making the country and the world in which they conduct business worse. Like the fewer regulations that are that Musk companies have to follow, the more money he is going to make. But this is not just like the sort of abstract conservative deregulatory project we're talking about here. On the campaign trail, Trump has talked about putting Musk in charge of a government efficiency commission, which would, again, not only allow Musk the power to sort of personally further this agenda, but also would put him in the position of having power over the regulators who regulate his companies. The New York Times estimates that Musk's government contracts are worth about $3 billion annually. And if you have that much of, of your business success tied up in the federal government. Yeah, being able to ostensibly having the power to rearrange regulators to fire regulators you don't like and so on and so forth, a pretty lucrative position for someone in Musk's position. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so now let's get into

the reason for this unholy alliance that may be a little more hidden or at least a little less obvious. And one of the things you write in your piece for fast company is for all the clout that Musk has assembled as the world's wealthiest person, he is also running out of the most important currency in Silicon Valley, new ideas that would keep him relevant and make him even wealthier. So explain what you mean there before we even get into why an alliance with Trump helps with that. I think the simplest way to put it is his businesses are bad. Like this is a guy who is very famous for ostensibly being a visionary businessman genius, but take stock of where his companies are, versus where he imagines himself to sort of sit in the ranks of captains of industry.

But look at Tesla, Jay. Isn't Tesla like the leading EV manufacturer in the world? So like our guy Elon is still super rich, right? He's the richest man in the world, quarter trillion dollars. No one else is close to him. But yeah, Tesla for as long as it's dominated the EV market, its growth is slowing. This gets like a little bit into the weeds, but it reported really good, or I should say, above expectations, third quarter earnings, but a lot of that has to do with the regulatory

credits that Tesla transacts with other car manufacturers. The actual automotive side of Tesla's business, like the selling of cars, has been basically flat for two years now. And you see a lot of sort of this stagnation in his other businesses, too. Like, I mean, stagnation, he would be thrilled if Twitter's value had stagnated, right? But it hasn't done that. It's been in a free fall since he bought it and turned it into the shithole that it is today. His sort of more ambitious stuff, Neurrelink, the brain implant startup, cybercab, his driverless taxi product.

He is way behind schedule on those. And those are probably years from going to market if they ever go to market at all. I remember writing about the boring company when Musk first started it. I was going to say, I feel like you're overlooking the most important company in the world, the boring company. My memory of this sort of of the narrative around the boring company is that at the time it was like, oh man, the guy who's making EVs available to everyone is going to take on traffic jams next. And it turns out that his idea for handling traffic was building tunnels, which, you know, your transportation expert listeners will note is not a new or a groundbreaking technology. Its most significant accomplishment to date is building like a road for Tesla's beneath the Las Vegas Convention Center. Personally, alleviating traffic on the strip has not made my commutes in non-Las Vegas cities any shorter.

And his most successful company right now has got to be SpaceX and its subsidiary Starlink, which provides satellite internet coverage. But those are different from his other companies, in my view, because they depend so heavily on government investments. in order to succeed, right? Like that the consumer market for colonizing Mars is not robust these days. So if you divide must companies up into his consumer focused ones, which are either flat, tanking or years from going to market, or his sort of government-facing companies, which, again, will require billions of dollars in public resources to have any hope of long-term success. Yeah, like if you were the addled rich guy who were in this situation, you would do whatever you could to ensure that the other adled rich guy candidate got elected president because chances are he's going to be your best bet at sort of keeping this House of Cards upright for a little longer. And yeah, I agree. Let's leave Space X aside for a second. But in terms of these other companies, the consumer companies, etc., you've laid out the case that they aren't in the best of shape.

But explain exactly how that has led to him curling up to the sagging bosom of Donald Trump. And I apologize, but I had to get back at you for Supreme Court Justice Elon Musk. So I had to come up with an equally horrific image. I was going to say that's another one of those thoughts we agree we should have kept as an internal image, internal thoughts. Yeah. So how would a Trump presidency help Musk out here? A lot of what Musk's companies are doing has already drawn regulator interest, right? If you have been to San Francisco lately and seen the nightmarish specter of these driverless cabs heading around the street,

you understand just how nervous sort of government officials are about the prospect of like a Musk endorsed computer mowing down pedestrians that the computer did not register. A Trump administration is not going to care about regulating companies that are sort of on the move fast break things ideology. And the other thing to think about is that Musk and Tesla have significant investments in crypto, which is also something that Trump has really sort of embraced in this now, his third campaign for the presidency. He's promised to sort of unleash the crypto industry, again, deregulate it. And Musk has personally a lot of money up in, oh, God, even saying this word pains me. But dogecoin, Musk has invested heavily in dogecoin. That's not a real thing. I truly wish it were not, but here we are.

Tesla has also holds a bunch of Bitcoin. So it's one of those where not only would Trump be good for Musk's businesses, He would also be good for Musk's, for lack of a better word, investments, like a more crypto-friendly Trump administration could boost Musk's net worth even further without him even having to do anything more. Yeah, that's a huge point that I really do feel is being overlooked by a lot of folks, is Trump's fairly recent, it feels like, embrace of cryptocurrency and to the point of like, I don't know, issuing his own stuff or endorsing other stuff. I'm not even exactly clear on what that family,

the griffs are so numerous to the point where they're endless. That's right. And in his earlier campaigns, he was openly critical of crypto, right? He was skeptical of it. Right. He did not support the industry. And like all things, Trump, I think that at some point or another, someone got through to him that if he changes his position on this, he could be in a position to make money. And hence his sort of about face on it to the point where, as you note, yeah, there is a Trump cryptocurrency that you can buy now. The third cursed phrase that we've uttered in this interview between us. Let's try and tamp those down. How about that? Okay. So I won't say Trump NFT. Oh, come on, man. Sorry. All right. So I said a little bit earlier, I said let's put SpaceX aside. And I did that for a reason.

And the reason I did it is it really seems, and you write about this in your piece, I don't want to make it sound like this is me being a brain genius and explaining to you how things work. But it really does seem as though we've reached a point where SpaceX and Starlink, as you said, is subsidiary, where SpaceX and the U.S. government are so dependent on each other that regardless of who wins this election, that relationship to paraphrase Charlie Daniels ain't going away. But you point out that you're not sure that Musk really even understands that. I think that's right. And that's where I think his immersion in right-wing media sort of is what is governing his actions at the end of the day here. But yeah, like the government basically depends on SpaceX to get its astronauts into space. That was true under the Trump administration. It's been true under the Biden administration.

If Harris wins, it will be just as true under her administration. Now, do I think it's sort of an issue that the government has billions of dollars tied up in contracts with the guy who muses about the assassination of political candidates he doesn't like? Yeah, I do think that's kind of an issue, but maybe one we leave for another day. But this is one where we're not talking about a rational person here. We're talking about Elon Musk and whatever it is that propels his various decision-making process. may or may not power his decision-making processes according to the Wall Street Journal. He just doesn't understand, right, that like if Harris wins, it's probably still going to be mostly status quo for them. He cares deeply about his status as a cultural icon. He understands

that it is fragile. And even the possibility of feeling marginalized, even a little bit, is going to feel like an existential threat to him. The part you said there about his status as a cultural icon, I think that's really important because out of all the companies, that we've talked about here, Tesla, the boring company, Neurlink, which is right now basically nothing, and his cyber robots or whatever you want to call them, which are right now basically nothing. It really is space X that gives him sort of cultural cachet, I think, because, you know, it's, well, it's space and it's going to Mars and it's astronauts and it's, you know, it's what we like to pride ourselves on as Americans. as technological wizards who landed on the moon and all this stuff. And so I think you're right that in talking about his views of himself as a cultural icon, Space X is really the linchpin for that, right?

Yeah, I think if you take away the element of his portfolio that allows himself to cast himself as providing a public service, right? Then you're stuck with this right-wing creep who runs a failing social media platform and a once revolutionary car company that is now slowing down. And yeah, something that turns out creepy prototype robots that will ostensibly mow your lawn in the next eight to ten years whenever they go to market. Like without SpaceX, he's just sort of like a carnival barker. I think he understands that really well.

And I think that is why he is doing everything he can to ingratiate himself with the candidate who is most likely to sort of keep upon him the praise and adulation that he feels he deserves. In addition to all, you know, the racist, sexist, xenophobic stuff. Right. Well, Jay, I guess the good news is that Musk will soon be in jail because Merrick Garland is going to go full speed ahead on prosecuting him for his, as you put it, publishers clearinghouse sweepstakes that he's running in Pennsylvania. but I, of course, am unfortunately joking.

I could probably do 90 minutes on Merrick Garland. Yeah. But you would have to break the bleep button on this podcast. We don't have a bleep button, but we might have to for the first time if I let you talk for 90 minutes about Merrick Garland. Jay, thank you so much for being here. As always, one of these days, we will talk about something more fun, such as you destroying my fantasy football team. That's right. That's the role I feel.

But we don't need to get it to that now. Jay, thanks so much for being here. Thanks for having me, Andy. Folks, I am very happy to welcome back to the new abnormal. Phoebe Petrovic, who is from Wisconsin Watch and has written one of the most important pieces that I have read in a long time at ProPublica entitled The Genesis of Christian Nationalism. folks, not only first off, Phoebe, is the illustration that was done, Nate Switzer and Anna Donlin and Peter DeCampo at ProPublica, like the illustration, the design of this essay was just, I mean,

beautiful, but you're writing. Let's get into it because I want to talk to you for an hour and we don't have an hour. Talk to us about reconstructionism, R.J. Rush Dune, and And the book, the, what is it, the institutes of biblical law. Talk to us about Reconstruction and how it coincides with Maga. Let's start at the beginning. Sure. So Christian Reconstructionism is a little known movement that has had outsized influence on an American culture, particularly evangelical culture and the political right. There is a fantastic scholar named Julie Ingersoll who wrote a book on this, which we used heavily in this piece, who says that often R.J. Rush Duny is described as like the crazy uncle of the Christian right, but really he's the intellectual godfather. So Christian Reconstructionism developed in the 60s and 70s, and it is a fundamentalist, theocratic movement that says that all aspects of society should be governed,

by biblical law. And the important thing to know about Reconstructionism is that to them, they're kind of a different type of Christian almost. They really emphasize the Old Testament in addition to the New Testament. So sometimes we hear like, oh, like the Bible says, you know, be kind to your neighbor and do good works. Like that's fine. What's wrong with society being governed on those principles? The Christian Reconstructionist movement really emphasizes Old Testament, which is Old Testament law, super strict, and endorses things like the death penalty for homosexuality, for adultery, even for incorrigible teenagers who are disobedient to their parents. So really strict extreme stuff.

So R.J. Rush Dune, who was the father of this, and also his son-in-law, Gary North, wrote extensively about what a Christian world should look like under their definition. really strict patriarchal, you know, homeschooling was best, headship where the father and husband led the rest of the family. And these books were prolific. They were extensive. They covered every aspect of life, even sort of the economy, so not just social stuff.

So one of the things that's really important about this is that talking the piece about this scene where there's a moment at the National Affairs Briefing Conference in 1980, where Reagan gives a speech to upwards of 15,000 evangelicals. And it's really seen as one of these moments that's emblematic of the political right and conservative Christians coalescing together, which has really defined our politics today. But one of the things that was so striking to me is that one of Reagan's campaign advisors is backstage at the National Affairs Briefing Conference. He's talking with Gary North, one of the fathers of Reconstructionism,

And they say, yeah, none of us would be here if it wasn't for Rush Duny and his books. And they're like, yeah, but none of those people know that. No one knows that. They're like, but we do, which to me just shows how influential this body of work was to sort of the architects of our culture, but not necessarily known and named to the people who are kind of living that culture on the ground day to day. One of the things that stood out to me, Phoebe, just about this character, RJ Rush Duny, and we'll move through to other people that are elevated in this really important piece is that one of the tenants is wanting to eliminate public education by slowly dismantling it.

And you touched upon it when you talk about their desire for religious homeschooling. But what I want people to understand and make a case. connection to and a tie to is that the modern day Republicans have had a desire to dismantle public education for the very reasons that RJ Rush Duny laid out in the 1960s and the 1970s. And I just want you to unpack that a bit for us because we are seeing it right now in Donald Trump's speech in Donald Trump's rhetoric that he had on Fox and Friends recently where he sat down and said that we will do away with the Department of Education. Talk to us about the origin story of this ideology.

Yeah, so there's like a really clear historical and ideological through line from Rush, Dune and the Reconstructionists very clearly saying that public education or government school should not exist to efforts today where we see sort of death by a thousand cuts attacks on our public education. And so R.J. Rush Jr. and the Reconstructionists thought that government schools were evil and were outside of the purview. So I guess government schools is what they would call them, is their term. So they had very particular strict spheres of authority that they envisioned. And to them, education was under the domain of the family. And so it was ungodly and contrary to biblical law, truly, if the government was involved in education through to public education. And so, So one of the things that Rush Juni and the Reconstructionists were really critical on was developing sort of the Protestant evangelical Christian school movement. So, you know, not parochial schools or Catholic schools, but like fundamentalist evangelical Protestant schools that now are very popular and in many states getting state money through vouchers. I've written about this that they will discriminate against LGBTQ kids, we are in trans kids, kids with disabilities. is sometimes they're getting state funding. One of the other key things is that not only did they help start these Christian schools, but also Rush Duny and North's literature were the curricula that were taught in many of these schools.

And so the key thing about Christian Reconstructionism is that there's very few people who would identify themselves as Reconstructionists. Fewer people would know who the heck these people are, but it's likely that they have read their books, or rather it's likely that they have read curricula that has been shaped or based on their books and ideas, especially if they went to a Protestant Christian school. Let's go to this next part here, which I also think is critical to understanding the modern MAGA movement. Because I think that what you've laid out in this piece, Phoebe, is that this is not a manifestation of the last nine years of Trumpism. What you laid out so clearly is that this is a manifestation of strategic, quote unquote, spiritual work that they have been doing over the last five decades. And it was not lost on me that R.J. Rush Duny's book was published in 1973, which was where we had Roe v. Wade and also women gained economic power.

in 1973 and 1974. Also coming on the heels of taking prayer out of schools. This evangelical movement, which would then begin to unify itself across different denominations, was the purpose of consolidating power around two ideas that I want you to unpack for us, which is dominionism and the biblical worldview. Talk to us about these two concepts and how they have. really set the stage and created the constructs for how this very powerful voting block has seized power from the courts to the House, to the Senate, and to the White House.

Yeah. So two of the reasons that we know of Reconstructionist influence today is because of dominionism and the biblical worldview. So one of the really key things to know, and this gets into the weeds and we made it as accessible as possible in the story is that, and I'm going to say it because it's in the radio and my editor's not here, is that the reconstructionists and the rest of evangelicals have very different types of eschatology, which is like end times beliefs. And so the reconstructionist believed that they had a duty to shape the world and society for Christ right now in the here and now so that he would then return and be able to. to reign. And the rest of evangelicals believed that they were basically going to be saved by the

rapture. And so then who the hell cares what's going on in Earth? It led them to like be kind of relaxed in politics and take a really kind of like black stance. So one of the key things is that the reconstructionists had this belief in dominion. And then this comes from my faith Genesis. But they believe that God created the world for humans to rule over and that they were called to do so. and that humans and Christians in particular were called to rule over every single aspect of life. So that's dominionism or dominion theology. This is how sort of Christians or Reconstructionists sort of carried out shaping the world for God. Biblical worldview is kind of, they're very sort of interchangeable.

The biblical worldview is like the shorthand for this. It's sort of euphemistic. It's the theocratic framework for seeing all of the Bible as a strict blueprint for structuring society. And this is, again, all of the Bible, like Old Testament as well as New Testament. So prior to the 1970s and prior to the reconstruction of sort of gaining influence, faith was more of a private thing. It was more of like it cheaps, you know, how do you move in the world, but not necessarily how you need to structure society. And the term that people used was, why polished brass on a sinking ship? Like, you know, this world is already doomed. We're going to

to be saved in the rapture. So why bother making things more biblical? Reconstructionists influence them to sort of set those theological end times debates aside and say, let's improve things in the here and now, now through dominionism, through biblical worldview. These are sort of the vehicles of that and not spread throughout evangelicalism. Moving on from the 80s, 90s to today, that's really the dominating and animating worldview of evangelicalism of conservative Christians writ large. And that wasn't the case until sort of the Reconstructionist got on the scene. And this we can see sort of in in kind of all aspects of our politics today. These two frames have become incredibly influential. Particularly we'll talk

about it, I'm sure, like in the new apostolic reformation. Yep. Yeah. Like it's just, it's once you kind of clue into that and you listen to what people are saying, these, these sort of animating frameworks are really present throughout our politics today. And yeah, as you point out, the point of the story was to sort of like untangle those and help people pick up on those echoes. Bring us to the new apostolistic reformation. Bring us there to NAR and Donald Trump

and where we find this consolidated power now. Because I want people to understand like how this train is slowly moving along and picking up, different denominations and different groups along the way and saying, let's let go of our differing views to your point about end of times and what we think that the purposes of rapture, this, that, and the other thing, and let us all get behind this idea that in order for us to have this quote unquote return of Christ, that we need to create a biblically pure society that is

governed and ruled by the strictness of laws and attack all aspects of our society into doing so. And then, then this return will happen. Talk to us about how the NAR, the New Apostolic Reformation, how this gets us to the here and now with Donald Trump. Yeah. So the NAR is sort of the most visible and successful driver of far right Christian policies in America today. I do want to say just to sort of a disclaimer, this holds true for Reconstructionism and for the NAR. People often don't identify themselves as members of these groups or adherence to

these ideas. And so when I talk to scholars, they will really emphasize that influence of action is much more important than someone saying, I am a member of the New Apostolic Reformation because someone can quite easily just say, oh, I'm not a part of that. And then the conversation stops. So Mike Johnson, for example, he's a Southern Baptist. He is not a charismatic evangelical Christian. He belongs to denomination. And yet, he is sort of showing and using the symbols of the NAR. So that's sort of just an overarching kind of thing to think about that's important.

Now members of the NAR leaders of it are saying, oh, there's no such thing as the NAR. When decades ago they were acknowledging there was such a thing. So the NAR sort of develops in the 90s, and it's happening when megachurches are becoming more popular, and charismatic Christians were moving away from traditional denominations. Charismatic Christians are ones who emphasize the supernatural elements of Christianity, so faith healing, speaking in tongues, things like that. They're starting to govern themselves in these networks run by church leaders called apostles and prophets. prophets say that they have the gift of prophecy, so they're seeing into the future, they're hearing

messages from God. And the important thing about this is that, you know, it's much looser than the sort of stricter denominations that say, we believe X, Y, and Z, ABC. There's kind of sort of more cross-pollination between the two. But the thing that comes to define the new apostolic reformation, particularly in the 2010s, is something that is much more widespread today. Again, this is like influence versus label the Seven Mountains mandate. So the Seven Mountains mandate is a dominionist framework. So it's the type of dominionism that is heralded by the NAR. And it says that Christians, particular type of Christians, are called to conquer the seven spheres of society, family, religion, government, arts and entertainment, business, education, and media. So that's like all of them,

right? They're saying, this is a message from God. We can rule over these mountains. And once we do that, we will control the culture and shape it in our image. The important thing here is, you know, in terms of through line, is that this seven mountain mandate, it's just the NAR's version of dominionism that the Reconstructionists and others, but in particular the Reconstructionists sort of spearheaded in the 60s and 70s. And this is sort of, again, an animating force that we see today. So the key thing about the NAR is that in the 2010s, a guy named Lance Walna, I was considered a prophet.

He sets this Seven Mountains mandate framework on fire. It becomes incredibly popular. And then in 2016, in October, he comes out with this op-ed saying, I have received a prophecy that Donald Trump is like King Cyrus in the Bible. Sure, he's got this checkered past, but I believe he was chosen by God to restore Christians to cultural power in the United States. And that is identified by scholars as a key moment when evangelicals sort of

line up in support behind Trump and then help him gain the White House in 2016. So it's a key, again, compromise for political power where they say, yeah, Donald Trump might not have the past or morals of an evangelical leader whom we would want, but he is the person who was going to help restore us to power and so we should vote for him. And Lance Walden, has continued his work today, barnstorming the country in support of Trump, getting people to vote for him. And he and other NAR leaders

were at the Capitol on January 6th, praying and bringing believers there. And some of them were participating in the riot. So there is, right now, the NAR is like the vanguard of Christian Trumpism. So let me just say this as we end, because the last thing that I will say, when people who listen to this and they may shrug this, off or they just may kind of say that, oh, well, these folks are just zealots and they really,

outside of voting for Trump, have no power. The appeal to heaven flag, which is, which you lay out in your piece, which is associated with the NAR, which is a white flag with a, with a green pine tree on it. That was inside of the Capitol on January 6th. Speaker Mike Johnson has hung it outside of his office, and it was also flown outside of the beach home of Justice Alito. And so when we talk about how they have constructed and begun to consolidate power, we are talking about how this ideology has now co-opted the Republican Party and a movement behind Donald Trump that they have kind of wrapped around the Bible. So there is no like, Here, let me give you these list of facts.

This man is a liar or a grifter or whatever. They think that Donald Trump is this imperfect vessel for their conquering of the United States and ultimately the world. And I think to me, Phoebe, that is why your piece was so incredibly poignant and terrifying and necessary. I want to really thank you for this in-depth reporting that you continue to do to bring our attention to.

Thank you so much. really appreciate it. Folks, the piece is the genesis of Christian nationalism. It is up at ProPublica now. I encourage every single person to read it, to share it, and read it again, because it gives you the deep understanding of where we are and where MAGA is headed. Thank you, thank you, thank you, Phoebe again. Appreciate you. Yeah, thank you for your work. Danielle Moody. Andy Levy. Daniel, who is your or fuck that guy to kick off this week before election day? Or as I like to say the last week in America.

Oh, yeah. So here's the thing. I would normally just clearly state that my fuck that guy is Merrick Garland when I tell you who the actual fuck that guy is. But it's Elon Musk. Elon Musk is my fuck that guy because he is overtly trying to steal an election by dangling million dollar checks in front of registered voters in swing states. If they sign on to a pledge to support Donald Trump and MAGA, then you get a million dollars because that's what the

world's richest man is doing right now through his illegitimate pack. Now, why should the fuck that guy be Merrick Garland as opposed to Elon Musk? Well, because the Philadelphia District Attorney's office is doing what the fucking Department of Justice should be doing, but hasn't done because I don't know where Merrick Garland is. He's been on a milk carton for at least four years now. I don't know if anybody's found him. But the district attorney's office is suing Elon Musk's political action committee because they believe that what he is doing is violating federal election law. I don't need to be an attorney to say that what he is doing is violating election law. And what the Justice Department could have been doing is suspending Elon Musk from

doing this sweepstakes to steal an election by saying that we're going to stop you from being able to do this until a deeper investigation is done. Do you know why I say that? Oh, because the black women that started the Fearless Fund that was stopped from giving out grants to black women entrepreneurs had to suspend their operations while they were being quote unquote investigated for discrimination against

non-black entrepreneurs. So explain to me why the fuck Merrick Garland and the Department of Justice couldn't do the same thing with Elon Musk. It is not a matter of like want and desire. He just doesn't care. He doesn't care at all. And so Elon Musk, fuck that guy, but fuck Merrick Garland.

I'm just, I'm so tired of the just overt criminality that we are seeing. And our Justice Department is entirely missing from the conversation because no one knows what Merrick Garland is up to except for what? Preserving an institution. Maybe he's painting the Department of Education. I don't know what he's doing, but he's not doing his fucking job. And the only thing good coming out of this election is the known fact that he won't be the attorney general anymore. That's the one thing I do know for 2025 is that Merrick Garland will be gone.

So, ugh, ye of little hope, but that's the hope I'm holding on to. Danielle, as a white man, can I explain to you what Merrick Garland is doing? Please do. He is upholding the institutions of America. We do things a certain way here, Danielle. And we don't like to upset the apple cart. And we don't like to look as though we are playing favorites or we are biased. So we're very careful not to offend wealthy people in this country.

Anyway, I could go on. Mm-hmm. Well, thank you for the clarification. Sure, sure. Because every once in a while, I do need somebody as a white male interpreter of America. And that's what I come to you for. Fuck all the guys that were part of your fuck that guy. And shout out to Larry Krasner, by the way, who seems to be one of the best district attorneys

in the country. So, Andy, how are you kicking off the final days of America? I mean this week with your fuck that guy. Well, I'm going to talk about something that happened over the weekend. And that was the decision made by the Washington Post to not do an endorsement for president this year. This falls on the heels of the Los Angeles Times doing the same thing. I think that was my fuck that guy for last Friday's episode.

So I figured I'd follow up with it today and make it the Washington Post. It's absolutely grotesque that the Post did what it did. And this is 100% on Jeff Bezos. And also I think Will Lewis, who is the publisher, who himself has a, I guess you could call it fairly a history of being part of conservative media in Britain. Lewis put out an unbelievably insulting statement saying that the Post was returning to an earlier time when it didn't endorse for president. That earlier time is, I believe, in 1972, I believe was the last time it didn't endorse. And that was between Nixon and McGovern.

And yeah, good choice there, guys. So we're going back, what, a little over 50 years and trying to pretend that the reason they're doing this, is to return to their roots? No, first of all, if you were going to do that, you don't make the decision a week before election day. So you're clearly lying. Second of all, it is just incredibly obvious why this was done. And it is because, and Will Lewis aside, Jeff Bezos wants to cozy up to Donald Trump. And I saw people calling, you know, saying that this was spineless and cowardly. And I disagree, and I disagree for this reason. I don't think it was spineless or cowardly. I think it was calculated, and it was done with full knowledge of why it was being done. I think the only way you

could call it cowardly or spineless would be if they had decided this without knowing that the endorsement was going to go to Kamala Harris. But I think once they knew that, they chose, and by they, I mean mostly Bezos, but I think Will Lewis bear his blame. here as well. They chose the path that would ingratiate themselves with Donald Trump. And that is a calculated choice. And to me, that says it's not spineless. They want Donald Trump to win. And I don't mean this for pretty much anyone else that works at the Washington Post, some of their maybe conservative opinion writers aside. I believe Jeff Bezos wants Donald Trump to win. I believe he thinks it will be best for Amazon if Donald Trump wins, and he does not give a shit about any of the fascism that will come

along with that. And I think they made a conscious choice. And I have to say, shout out to many, many, many of the Washington Post writers who published pieces in the Washington Post talking about what a ridiculously awful decision this was. This is the first time in a long time. I can recall seeing a bunch of employees at a newspaper being as public as this with their disgust. And I know there have been some resignations from the editorial board, just as there have been at the LA Times. And I know that there have been a lot of subscription cancellations from the Washington Post. A decision was made.

A decision was made by Jeff Bezos. And it's probably not great that rich guys own newspapers, but here we are. So fuck that guy. all so beautifully stated. I mean, the fact that you have a couple of billionaires that control our communication, our news, that's an American oligarch. This is where we are. And he is hedging his bets and doing so at the expense of our democracy. Fuck that guy, all of them. Yeah, I just want to close by saying, you know, it's a common saying on the left that there's no such thing as a good billionaire. And I do want to say that I do think I would be an exception.

to that. And I think we should give it a shot is really all I'm saying. I think I deserve a chance. Okay. I like that for you. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of the new abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend and keep the conversation going. This podcast is a Daily Beast production with production by Jesse Cannon and Seamus Calder. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover

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