The Daily Beast Podcast - Trump’s Not in Charge. This Is Who Really Is.

Episode Date: May 18, 2025

The Daily Beast’s brilliant columnist David Rothkopf tells Joanna Coles what’s really going on in the Oval Office. From dumbed-down intelligence briefings to the truth about why he backed off tariffs, Rothkopf spells out who’s really calling the shots—and why the answer should worry every American. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. I'm Joanna Coles. I'm the chief content officer. And I wanted to start by thanking you for the incredible engagement we got last week after Michael Wolfe appeared on the podcast on YouTube. We had over 3,000 of you writing, talking largely about Trump craving attention and that really being his motivating factor. And over half a million of you watched it. So today we're talking to David Rothkopf, one of the Daily Beast contributors who wrote an excellent piece this week. arguing that the first four months of Donald Trump's second administration have seen the country, America, drop significantly in the international rankings, and Trump himself, having gone from leader of the free world, has severely dropped down the rankings of the world's most important people. And when David speaks or writes, we listen because he's the former editor of Foreign Policy magazine. He was a senior official in the Clinton administration. And his concern and anxiety about Trump and his foreign policy is off the charts in terms of what this means for America and what it means for America in the world. So David, can we – I have so many questions, but I guess the first one is I want to talk to you about Trump. No longer bothering really with his intelligence briefings.

He's done 12 since he started, and he's down to two a month, whereas even President Biden managed to a week. Some presidents love this kind of stuff. Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, they like to immerse themselves in these briefings and saw them as an important part of their daily intake in doing their jobs. Trump is the antithesis of that. He always has been. In fact, you know, they dumbed down intelligence briefings. They put more picture. and diagrams in them because he didn't really like words, which is kind of trouble. But I can't imagine what are the graphics for, you know, increased tension in the Middle East or what are the graphics for Russia and Ukraine? What do they look like? No, I did. Listen to Trump when he was talking about bombings in Ukraine by the Russians.

He was describing pictures he was shown in. His intelligence briefings, right? I mean, that's, you know, that's kind of, that's kind of the way he thinks. But as you say, story is he's only been to 14 such briefings. You know. In this second administration. And as I wrote for you a couple of, I guess two weeks ago, you know, part of the reason Mike Walts got fired was that Mike Waltz thought he was being hired to give advice. he's a national security advisor.

Trump doesn't want advice. Trump thinks he knows everything. He sees facts as a distraction from his impulses and his beliefs. And so, you know, Trump is in the middle of an experiment in not actually having a national security council, right? Marco Rubio is doing both jobs. And there's some talk among people in the White House that if this goes well for a few months, Trump might just say, let's get rid of the NSC, which has been a thing since 1947, has been central to the support of every president since Kennedy, and has grown over the years in the past 20, 25 years to being three or 400 people who have been absolutely essential to how every president conducts their foreign policy.

But it doesn't matter to Trump because he views all foreign policy as an interaction between him, and some other world leader. So he set off to the Middle East saying that he was going to do some deals. Your column for us this week, which was very good, was about how he thinks he's the most important man in the world. But to your point about him actually not really having a foreign policy, as a result, he sunk down the rankings of the most important people in the world. So can you talk a little bit about this? week's trip and about where he fits now against the leaders of Russia and China in the Middle

East. And then I want to know what they're all saying about him behind his back. Well, let's break it down into component parts. There are certain things that made the President of the United States the most powerful man in the world. One of them was that the U.S. was seen as a leader and it was seen as trusted. The U.S. is no longer seen as a leader. It is no longer trusted. Another was that the U.S. was that the U. the U.S. had this big network of alliances around the world. Trump is blowing up those alliances. So those are sources of power, and those have been undermined.

We've had some tests of Trump's power and influence over the course of the past four months. For example, he launched a bunch of tariffs some countries and particularly hard on China. And the Chinese later said, okay, bring it. You know, I, you know, we have 1.4 billion people. We have a big internal market. The world wants to do business with us. And by the way, we're the number two purchaser of U.S. Treasury bonds. And we have a lot of rare earth metals.

You want to not do business with us. And Trump very quickly had people in his administration going, you got to back off of this. And the markets said, you've got to back off of this. And that standoff, she won. Trump lost. Clearly, Xi is the most powerful man in the world right now. It's not Trump. Trump is in a sense playing the arsonist fireman, isn't he? He creates this phony war over tariffs. And here it seems to have played out reasonably well because people have forgotten somehow that he actually started this phony war. How is it being interpreted by Xi and by China?

It's being interpreted as a phony war. They know they didn't. provoke this. And they also, I believe, don't think Trump has the cards. You know, Trump came and said, well, I've got all the cards. You don't. But, you know, they kind of know this law of poker. You know, that if somebody else, if somebody thinks everybody else around the table has got a weaker hand than them, they're probably the one with the weakest hand. He just doesn't have the tools to or the leverage over China to achieve what he wanted to achieve, and they know it. But Trump's got no coherent theory of this because, first of all, his theory of tariffs is creating jobs and so forth is completely wrong, right? So it can't be coherent. It doesn't make

sense economically. But he just wants wins. Trump is all just about how does it make him look? So he looks tough when he puts in the tariffs and he looks good when he comes up with a solution. and he doesn't care what justifies the solution. The Chinese, no, they did this with him once before. Remember, there was a standoff before, and they said, well, okay, we'll buy a couple hundred billion dollars of your products. And he's like, yay, hey, everybody, they're going to buy a couple hundred billion dollars of our product. Did they ever do it?

No. And you want to know something? He is. But he's a scam artist. You know, and so what he is interested in, he knows that he's going to be caught sooner or later. because it's happened throughout his life, five bankruptcies, you know, whatever has happened in the women in his life. He's always doing a scam, right? And he knows he's going to get caught. So the thing for Trump is, what is my escape plan? How do I get out of this and how do I profit from it?

Is his escape plan to run for a third term? Because he keeps flating. It's a little bit like the birthright citizenship thing. You know, this plane, it's in the Constitution. He can't do it. Two, he's 78. He's going to be 79 next month. He's way too old to run for the presidency again. He's not going to run for the presidency again. He's not going to run for the presidency again. If you were worried about Trump was staying in office, that's not the thing to worry about. The thing to worry about is that the puppet masters, the guys behind Trump who are dictating the policies, Musk and Teal and Zuckerberg and Bezos and the Federalist Society and all the dark money people, they're going to be going to be there. They're not going away. They're going to pick candidates that advance their agenda. They're the ones that have got us into this mess over the past 40 years. And they're, you know, going to continue to be a force in the U.S. life. So it's dangerous to mesmerize on Trump when the real problem is something, not that he's not a problem, but the real problem is something else. We see Trump donors writing things in the bills that are going on now, you know,

like there will be no regulation of AI or whatever that makes Elon Musk or Peter Thiel happier. We're going to build a golden dome to protect America. Who's going to get the contract? Elon Musk and Peter Thiel. Those people are more important. And so if you go and you make a list, not only is the U.S. President not the number one or the number two person. He's not in the top 25. And I haven't even got to the fact that he used to be the most important person in America.

but you've got to give the Pope a shot at that now because he's an American and there's a billion people that follow him but he's going to be super influential on a few issues like immigration, refugees, the environment, so forth, where even though he's a conservative man, he's the head of the church,

he's got positions that are contrary to Trump's and has been willing to call out Trump, call out Vance. And so there's this big, long list, and every day we're watching Trump bump down a couple of places on it. Well, the other thing that the American president has traditionally been, too, is the sort of head of the Western belief in democracy, right, which he no longer seems to believe in.

He's cozying up to Putin. What does it say for global democracy, too, that he's adopting this position? It's bad news. You know, the President of the United States was seen as the principal champion of democracy. He clearly isn't. You know, when he's got his most powerful aide, Stephen Miller, saying we're going to suspend habeas corpus, which is kind of the foundation of common law, the foundation of law in the United States, that's worrisome when he's seeking to undermine elections running again, which is unconstitutional,

or eliminating birthright citizenship, which is unconstitutional. impeaching judges that, you know, don't agree with him, which is contrary to the separation of powers. All those things say, this guy is not only not the champion of democracy. He's not a fan of democracy. He doesn't particularly like it. And so he gets to go around with Putin or Kim Jong-un or kings or potentates around the world. And he likes them because they're the same view he does, which is, why do I have to care about the little people? So what's your analysis of his trip to the Middle East?

He said he went because he wanted to make deals. He's come back with a deal for 28 Boeing planes. He's managed to score himself a free plane from Qatar. What's your analysis of that trip? We've got to be fair when he does things that are positive. We should acknowledge when they're positive things. This trip was overshadowed by this cutter plane fiasco, which, you know,

now both Democrats and Republicans are decrying it because it's corrupt and because it's a security threat and because the plane to retrofit it will cost a billion dollars. And now they're all the stories that, of course, the Qataris have been trying to get rid of this plane for a while. And even Laura Luma is advising against it. Yeah, and people on the Hill who are not known for their courage like Susan Collins. they're advising against it. So that overshadowed the trip. But if you look at it from a foreign policy perspective, there were some big shifts.

He sat down with the leader of Syria. He said we would lift sanctions on Syria. Now, this guy was an al-Qaeda guy. He was on our terrorist list for a long time. But does Syria, you know, does this make some sense to start, you know, give it a new start and try to help the people of Syria? probably does. He said, I'm going to end those war against the Houthis. And, you know, was he covering up for the fact that we were getting nowhere and it was costing a billion dollars a month? Yeah. But on the other hand, ending it's probably better than not. He's pushing for a deal with Iran. Did he blow up the prior deal? Yeah, he did. Should he have? No. But on the other hand, it's better that he's pushing for it than listening to Bibi Netanyahu who wants to go to war with Iran. He's pushing back on BB.

Now he's saying, you can't dictate what our policies are in the region. You know, strangely, we've reached the point where America's right-wing maniacs are uncomfortable with Israel's right-wing maniacs. You know, Israel's too far right for our right. And, you know, so that's a positive. Even though Trump's views on Gaza and creating a free zone or building casinos or whatever are crazy and giving the Israelis more weapons. to kill Palestinians is horrible.

And even on AI, you know, the Biden administration's view on AI was, let's keep it all to ourselves, let's restrict its being shared in the world because we don't want the Chinese to get a hold of it. Well, in the course of the past few years, the Chinese have caught up a lot. And Trump is sort of changing the policy and saying, what we'd rather do is get people using our systems and buying our systems and being engaged. engaged with us because it benefits us economically, but it also gives us a leg up on the Chinese in terms of the global competition. I think that's probably net, net, a positive change. So if you

look at the trip, you know, once again, there's one part of the world where Trump, even though he's causing problems everywhere else, does a little better. Last time around it was the Abraham Accords. This time around, it's this region. If I may, I would like to say one last thing, and that is that I'm the CEO of a company that does a lot of podcasts, and in addition to my primary job of writing for you, Joanna, and two of the podcasts are sponsored by the Embassy of the United Arab Emirates and the United States. And so as a result of that, because that's the way the law goes, we register under Farah as taking money from them. And we don't lobby. We don't do any of that.

Nobody has ever sought to influence our content. They've never sought to influence anything. I write. But whenever I talk about this region, I want to be transparent. David, hold that thought right there. Let's come back after these messages. A big thank you to our sponsors.

Now, David, let's continue. Doug McMillan, the CEO of Walmart this week, came out and said that, given the tariffs, they were going to have to pass on some of the price hike to customers. A lot of that's going to impact Trump's base, especially in states in the middle of the country. How is this helpful to him? It's not. I mean, you know, Trump is waging a one-man war against Trump's base. You know, he's raising prices and a bunch of people

who thought he was going to lower prices. That's going to lose base. You know, know, he had this sort of surge in support under Latinos who thought, well, he's just going to deport the bad ones, not the good ones. Now he's deporting everybody or seeking to and violating the law. So he's alienating them. You know, the bulk of the people who benefit from Medicaid live in red states or a very substantial number. And so literally, I think, 17 million Americans under the current plan in the Congress would lose their Medicaid coverage. That's going to alienate a lot of them. People who thought they, you know, the veterans who thought, oh, Trump's the patriotic choice are discovering that he's shutting down VA hospitals and they're not going to get health care. He is alienating there. There is no Democrat in the United States doing as much to defeat Donald Trump as Donald Trump is doing. Well, he's his own worst enemy, isn't he always has been? I mean, he wins, he loses, he wins, he loses. What are the Democrats doing?

Oh, fumbling, fumbling around, you know. They're pretty weak. Chuck Schumer doesn't show up on videotape. Akeem Jeffreys is trying to get his sea legs. You know, there were a couple of Democratic governors who are everybody was like, oh, they have a lot of promise. Gavin Newsome is like lurching towards the center in the most. desperate way possible. You and I talked about this once, but it looks like he's trying to win back his ex-girlfriend, Kimberly Guilfoyle. I mean, it's just, I don't even... By moving further right, by cos playing, by having all these... But the right was being bloggers and podcast hosts on his podcast. If he goes home at night and puts on a Don Jr. mask, I wouldn't be surprised, right? Because he is like, I don't know what's going on in his head. You know, poor Gretchen Whitmer, who was a leading candidate.

She got used by Trump in this Oval Office thing, and that's going to hurt her. Some Democrats have ever right? Do you think it does hurt her? Because she's obviously someone that the Democrats are talking about as a potential leader for 2028. You think that her turning up at his rally and saying, we're all for Michigan, hurt her? Yeah, because I think a lot of people see Trump as, you know, unabated evil. and I think she was seen as being used, not being strong on it. J.B. Pritzker, the governor of Illinois, has been great, has been strong.

Chris Murphy, Senator from Connecticut, has been great, has been strong. Obviously, AOC and Bernie Sanders have been on the road, been great, have been strong. Jasmine Crockett has been great, has been strong. I think we're going to see a lot of a change in the sort of, did the, the, the, the, of the Guard and the Democratic Party. And I don't know that we can predict how it'll go. I think the midterms will affect that a lot. But, you know, there are other subtle things, you know,

and this won't be popular among some Democrats. But, you know, the air transportation system in the United States is a freak of disaster. And every day, some new horrible thing is happening. Pete Buttigieg, who is an excellent candidate, an articulate person. He's a really good guy. He's got, that's on him. You know, it's also on him, right? I see this as a moment of real change, and I see that as a good thing, because we're at a moment where the country could use a change of leadership and the country could use actually a generational change of leadership.

One of things that's visible is Trump is not the same guy he was in the first turn. He just looks older. He slowed down. He doesn't have Melania with him anymore. Well, that's a pleasure of minus. but he doesn't. But, you know, he just, he doesn't seem to get things. He's not as quick on the uptake.

He's 78. He's going to be 79 when he throws that parade for himself. You know, the problem is he still looks, he looks robust and energetic compared to his predecessor, obviously, Joe Biden. And you start your column by imagining what it would have been like if Carmelah Harris had won the election. And Joe Biden had said in 2022, I'm looking for a successor. That's because there's this book out original sin by Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson. And there's conversation about it. It really irritates Democrats.

This is coming up. And why are you picking an old Joe? And Trump is trying to destroy democracy. Let's focus on that. And I'm all for that, right? Trump is trying to focus, destroy democracy. The problem with not acknowledging what Biden did wrong, and Biden should have, two years before said I'm not running and should have stuck to,

I'll be a transitional president, as he said, is that it leads Democrats to draw some of the wrong conclusions about where we stand politically. And that's dangerous, right? What do you mean it causes the wrong conclusion? Well, people say, oh, well, a woman can't win. Well, Kamala Harris had 100 days to run for president. Nobody's ever had that few. She very nearly won. Hillary Clinton got the majority of the popular vote.

I could make a very strong case that they were both. very strong candidates and that they prove that a woman can win. Well, no one ever says white men can't win. And yet every single election, there's always been a white man up until the Hillary election. There's been a word of I'm lost, right? Well, that's exactly right. And the other thing is you've got a lot of Democrats going, well, you have to move to the center. Let's be more like Trump.

Let's do that Gavin Newsom, Don Jr. face mask thing. And the reality is that that's. not the message, and I don't think it's right. If you take what we typically think of as a progressive message, what is that, fairer taxes, rich pay more taxes, health care for everybody, take care of the environment, reasonable gun control, education reform, give more people a chance to be educated, et cetera, et cetera. That's progressive, right? That sounds progressive. It sounds like AOC. It should just be normal. It just be normal. It is normal.

That's what other democratic countries have. But in this country, three quarters of the people support those things. In some cases, like Dunn reform, 90% support them. So that is the mainstream. And the only people who don't seem to understand that are the political media. AOC is at the center of. American political belief on the major issues of the day. To these smart genius consultants, David Axelrod and James Carville and, you know, a lot of the people you see on TV, you say,

oh, well, the Democrats, you know, a lot of the people are the bulwark. Oh, the Democrats really need to get more like Trump. Really? The answer is to compromise. Compromising with a fascist produces fascism light. it's a bad choice. And if you think that, you know, the Democrats lost in 2024 because they were, you know, not far center enough, and you don't understand it's because of a bad decision that Joe Biden made, you're going to draw the wrong conclusions you may lose again. What the country need is Democrats who own who they are, who are proud of supporting things that are common sense.

who will have some strength, courage of their convictions. And then we'll do one other thing that Democrats are a little loathe to do. And that is embrace the power they seek. Democrats are like embarrassed. I don't want to do this. I don't want to, you know, Merck Garland. I don't want to push too hard on Trump. And then we end up with what?

Trump again. Even though all ruins-it-scra-crazy thing. Well, well, well. All right, David, that's enough for a Sunday. That's enough for a Sunday. Thank you very much. I love reading your columns and I love talking to you. And it's a strange world we're in right now. It's a strange world.

But we're relying on you to explain it to us and to come back and talk to us again. Nobody is a better guide for a strange world than you as the editor of The Daily Beast. Well, when we have writers like you, David, we will be fine. We can collectively we can handle strange. David, thank you so much for joining us. And if you have been listening, thank you. And feel free to go on to our YouTube channel and add a comment. We really do read them all, as do the contributors.

And it's very helpful to know what you're thinking out there. We'll be back on Tuesday with a new podcast and many more political insights into this crazy, crazy time. So until then, be Beast. This podcast was produced by Devin Rodgerino, Anna von Erson, and it was edited by Lindsay Meeks. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover

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