The Daily Beast Podcast - Trump's Twisted Move to Distract from Epstein

Episode Date: August 13, 2025

Welcome to the premiere of 'Inside Trump’s Head', a new twice-weekly deep dive from The Daily Beast into the most unpredictable, unsettling, and endlessly fascinating mind in modern politics. Host Joanna Coles teams up with best-selling Trump biographer Michael Wolff to explore what’s really driving Donald Trump. In this inaugural episode, Wolff shares exclusive White House conversations suggesting Trump may be ready to give up large parts of Ukraine in a high-stakes meeting with Vladimir Putin — all to distract from the ceaseless Jeffrey Epstein scandal threatening his grip on the MAGA base. From the hidden hand of Jared Kushner to Steve Bannon’s private doubts, from Putin’s possible kompromat to the Epstein “drumbeat” that won’t fade, Coles and Wolff go spelunking into the dark, dank cavern where all of Trump’s decisions begin. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the inaugural episode of Inside Trump's Head. It's a dark and strange place. We're going to be spulunking there twice a week, but we have our guide, Michael Wolf, to ensure we don't get so lost we can't find our way back. And today we'll be focusing on Michael's exclusive conversations with people in the White House who believe that on Friday, Donald Trump will get ready to give away chunks of Ukraine just to move the narrative away from the Jeffrey Epstein story, which is beginning. beginning to really drag on his presidency and have the MAGA base turn against him.

All right, I'm Joanna Coles from The Daily Beast. I'm Michael Wolfe. And what are we doing here? We're going inside a fearful place, Donald Trump's head. Donald Trump's head, and the reason we're doing it is because we know that there are hundreds of journalists covering the Trump administration, and they're covering it very well. But I have always... I think they're covering it.

poorly. Okay, well, I want to say that because I know it's hard to cover this stuff, but the reason that I love talking to you about Donald Trump is because I think you have a completely different perspective and you cover it from the point of him not being a politician, not behaving by the rules, and you're not lamenting the fact he's not behaving by the rules, you're just leaning into who he is, which is ultimately a performer, a television producer, and someone who is craving, who is desperate for attention and will do anything to get it? You know, it's also a different, and I have tried to make this case so many times, and it appears I've made it badly because it never, I never quite get across the point that I am not

covering this as a journalist. I'm covering this as a writer. And as a storyteller? This is about character. It's not about. policy, it's not about process. When you think about Donald Trump, you have to think about this guy, this person who is doing things for a whole variety of reasons that really have nothing to do with politics. They have all together to do with him. What he wants, what satisfies him, what weird cravings he has, what inner, the inner demons are going on, what, what dominance, in the end it's all about dominance and attention, but again, not about politics, about this very, very unique person, a person like this who we have never seen in the modern

history of American politics. And what I find so interesting is his ability to, by sheer dint and force of his character, to force the entire Republican Party to fall in behind him, and in fact to really begin to squeeze the American institutions which are supposed to protect American democracy without wanting to sound too hand-wringing about it. He has been able to squeeze them in a way that I think was unanticipated. And we have talked about this a lot on the Daily Beast podcast, and we decided to spin this off as a separate podcast because we have been overwhelmed by the response from, from viewers on YouTube, from listeners on Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcast,

and the sheer number of comments, which we're simply not able to address. But we want to try and address more of the themes they raise inside Trump's head, where we are going to focus entirely on what the hell is going on in that crazed place. Let me go back to that institution. point, the breaking of institutions that you just made. So in July 2017, I was sitting in the West Wing with Steve Bannon in Steve's office. So this is, what, five, five, six months after Trump has been elected and assumed the president. Yes. And Bannon's view at that point was that this was, that Donald Trump was, in some sense, a tragic figure because the institutions in

American life were so strong, so determined, so in a position to protect themselves. And Donald Trump was just one man against these institutions. And they were the deep stage. And he would, ban and thought, lose. In this battle, he would lose. So, and that was an interesting perspective, but the more interesting perspective, which we are seeing now, is that he hasn't lost. Actually, the institutions have lost. Well, and we as Americans, arguably, have lost, too. I mean, arguably, the world has lost, right?

I mean, I just had a friend staying from Europe, and she said, everybody in Europe is now just hanging on Trump's every word, not only for the tariffs, but now because this week he's going to have his summit in Alaska with Vladimir Putin and everybody in Europe is just trying to figure out what on earth is going to happen to Ukraine. But let's just go back to the moment where you're sitting in the White House. Steve Bannon has invited you in. You end up spending how many months there? About eight months. And you write the first book about Trump's presidency, which shows us the insanity of how he runs things. Right. I mean, that book's fire and stuff. jury, which I think did the, you know, up until that point, it was very hard to characterize this guy, partly because people, the media, journalists, continued to see him in a political

context. There must be a method here. There must be cause and effect. He must have goals that he wants to achieve policy goals. When, in fact, none of that, I believe none of that is true. And I think it still haunts the way the mainstream media has, thinks about him and writes about him. But I think the truth is completely different from that. I mean, at a polar opposite, he's not interested in policies, not interested in process. He's not interested in politics. He is interested in Donald Trump.

Well, and to be fair to Donald Trump, whatever you think of him, he has made politics interesting to a much larger sway of people. If you think about the way politics used to be reported, it was always through the lens of these fantastically erudite political reporters who sort of handed down almost indebt, insider information. It always felt done from the outside. And as a reader, as someone trying to understand how first in Britain and then in America, things were actually being run, I didn't feel I really understood it. It didn't feel, it felt too technical, it felt dry, and suddenly we have

a character who comes along, and possibly you could argue that about Bill Clinton, but you come along, Donald Trump comes along and elbows everybody else out of the way. Well, I think it's more extreme than that. I mean, we are, this has been, I mean, what is Donald Trump, the Donald Trump era been about? It's been about government by one person. No one else means anything. And no one is able to stand up to him. Well, no one can stand up to him because nobody, he just is, it's a process, Yeah, I mean, it's his dominance, but also the fact that he just is unconcerned about what anyone else says. He doesn't actually in real time ever listen to what anyone else has said. I mean, I always think that it's a key thing that people overlook.

He doesn't stop talking. This is not an exaggeration. When you are with him, he just goes on. There is never a moment when you can get anyone can get a word in edgewise. Well, and there are also stark differences between how he's living in the White House now than when he was living there first time around. His daughter and son-in-law, Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump, nowhere to be seen. His wife, Melania Trump, nowhere to be seen.

Well, she was really the truth as not really there in the first White House. But she's really not there now. Really not there now. Jared is still there. Well, he's not very visible. No, no, but Jared can, and that's what everyone in the White House will tell you, can at any moment big foot anybody. Okay, well, that's interesting. No, no, no, we should spend some time on that.

The Jared Hidden Hand, you know, Susie Wiles, the chief of staff, it's a Jared appointment. So let's come back to that. All right. Well, the point of this podcast is that we're going to be doing special episodes around certain characters that are very important within the Trump world. And obviously we're going to be responding to the news. But this is going to be twice a week where we go deep, dark, spulunking into the head of Donald Trump. Yeah, and there. And focus on that.

That is both metaphor but and actual. What is in this? What motivates him? Why is he doing something? Why is this happening? Why is this moment different from another moment? And that is because he woke up this morning and had some... Indigestion in the night.

Whatever. But again, all about everything that happens, everything 100% is because of the whims, desires, upset stomach of one man. The upset stomach of one man, that's just so unpleasant to think about. And just for those who don't know Michael's entire oeuvre, at least on Trump, you've written four best-selling books. There is no one better to set up as a guide to this dark place that we're going to go. So let's start with this week.

we wake up on Monday morning to a Trump suddenly staged press conference where he announces that Pambondi is basically going to take over the policing of D.C. because he claims that D.C. is now hell on earth. It's overrun by criminals, partly to do with the fact that Big Bulls, one of the younger members of Elon Musk's Doge team, has gotten beaten up. And actually, he looks very frightening. He's covered in. blood, it looks scary. He's supposedly defending the honor of a young woman. They were attacked by a gang, or he was attacked by a gang. What's this all about? What's it actually about? Let me go back about a week or so or 10 days when Trump started to say to everyone who would listen, and everyone listens to Donald Trump, but in the staffers and on the on the phone calls, the relentless phone calls that he's constantly making. He said, I need a big thing. I need a big thing. I need a big thing. What's the big thing? And everyone understood that this was code for, I need a distraction from Epstein. What's the thing that will move us beyond that? And there

a lot of suggestions. I mean, one and some of this got a little, a little traction. There was the suggestion to make Mondani the New York, the New York mayoral candidate, make him the villain. You know, he's the socialist left wing. Who came out from nowhere who beat Andrew Cuomo in the Democratic primary for New York Mayor. Right. So let's make him the villain. He's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, you he's a real left winger, will go after him.

And they tried that a bit. But it also doesn't seem a big enough idea to distract from the MAGA bases fury over their refusal to release more of the Epstein files. Absolutely. It didn't get that traction. I mean, Epstein, it still goes on behind everything. Epstein, Epstein, Epstein, Epstein, that drumbeat.

Then there was the suggestion, let's put troops into another city. Remember, they put troops. troops into L.A. And that certainly commanded headlines for, you know, that was... A week. Yeah, that was... Right.

A week. Right. And then Epstein overshadowed that. But obviously now, they have taken that a step further, and we now have troops in Washington. So we've got the National Guard deploy, and Pam Bond is taken over the Metropolitan District of Policing. Right. And this is a big deal. And we should let's spend a moment on that.

But in having this, Trump going around saying, I need a big thing, I need a big thing, he came up with the big thing. Now, which is always this way Trump operates, which is to say to ask a question and then answer it himself. But is that because he hasn't got people around him who can think as diabolically as he can about how to shift. the narrative because as you're always reminding us, he is a television producer. Well, he is that, but even if there were such people, he would not be able to hear them because he doesn't listen. I mean, again, and I cannot stress this enough. There is never a moment in which anyone can interrupt. It doesn't matter who you are. He would do well on this podcast then because all the comments last week are about how I interrupt you. All the comments.

In fact, I began to think they were coming from an Albanian bot. Well, then we can put you into the White House and see how you do. I would like to see if I could even begin to interrupt him. I'm sure I couldn't. So that is, is, it doesn't, he is going to answer. We need a big thing. We need a big thing. What's a big thing? Do we know a big thing? I need a big thing. And this is, and then he got to the big thing. Michael, just hold on a second. We have to take some messages. And we're back talking about what else, Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. Let's do it. Well, he's got two big things this week, because the other big thing that he got, which he announced last week, was he's meeting Putin for a summit in Alaska on Friday. So he's bookending the week with two big things. Well, that is, actually, that

what he got to. I'm going to have to do Ukraine. So he had been trying to avoid that, but I'm going to have to do it. Why am I going to have to do Ukraine? Because that's the give to MAGA. So wait a minute. When you say do Ukraine, what do you mean? I know he's been promising that he could solve this war. Well, that's what he, you know, I mean, I think do Ukraine means means give MAGA what it wants on Ukraine. And what does MAGA want on this? America to pull out. Yes.

America not to be involved in foreign wars. America will give, yes. So in other words, he's going to sacrifice Ukraine for Epstein. Essentially, this is in his mind a trade. It is the MAGAPE. people who have pressed this Epstein issue constantly. I mean, they're the threat. It's not really the liberals who are the threat. It's the MAGA people. So he will trade out. And he knows. He understands how exposed he is on Epstein. So he will trade out for trade Maga, trade Epstein for

Ukraine. And you're getting this from exclusive conversations you've had with people in the White House. Yes. I mean, and so this is what, now, the interesting thing about people in the White House is that they really don't know what he's going to do either. I mean, and so they spend as much time speculating about what's in his head as we are going to spend time doing exactly that. Okay. But this is this, I mean, this is what their interpretation. Why are we doing this? Why is, you know, he was, you know, he was, off Ukraine trying to avoid that because it's intractable and trying to avoid going into a meeting just with Putin. So I mean, up until now or more recently – I mean, there's been several changes in this, but more recently it's – we'll only sit down with Putin if Zelensky is there. Now we've gotten rid of Zelensky. back to Trump and Putin together, and nobody in the White House can see this turning out so well for

Ukraine. This is such an astonishing idea that because Donald Trump is paranoid about people exploring more about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, that he is prepared. to sacrifice large chunks of landmass of Ukraine? Yes, no, exactly. I mean, this is, I mean, so again, the drumbeat, the Epstein drumbeat is real. It is unceasing and it is threatening, most of all, to Donald Trump. And what is it? I mean, we ran tapes that you had of your interviews with Jeffrey Epstein when he'd invited you to write

biography of him before I think anybody knew the extent of his underage sex ring. And he said he and Donald Trump were best friends for 10 years. What is at the heart of the relationship that Donald Trump, who has run roughshod through the last 10 years? What is it that he's so frightened about coming out? I mean, he said himself, I could stand on Fifth Avenue and shoot people. nobody would care. Now they seem to care. Now Maga does seem to care. How has he played this wrong? And what is he so afraid of? Well, I mean, I think there are a couple of things. I mean,

yes, he could stand and shoot someone on Fifth Avenue, but it is arguably worse that it turns out that he was joined at the hip for years and years and years with some who we now understand to be the worst person on earth. Right, the most diabolical. And that person, and you can build a portrait of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein as the same person. It's very, you know, they were interested in the same things, girls. Mysterious sources of income. Yes, you know, girls and money is basically what they were, what they were interested in.

Sex money models. Yeah. Models of money. These were, you know, and they were proud of their loishness and their misbehavior. Did you just say loishness? I did. Is that supposed to be lusciousness? I would say luch.

You say loesh. New Jersey, losh. Okay. I've never heard of the word losh. Okay. You say losh. I say lush. I say lush.

And so, I mean, I think that that is truly. threatening. And there also is the business stuff. You know, behind everything that Trump has tried to obscure for many, many years is his business dealings, his tax dealings, his... Which we've still never seen his tax returns. So I think all of that underlies Jeffrey Epstein. But then this other thing, too, is that the MAGA people, remember, the MAGA people have have built Jeffrey Epstein up to represent the thing that they hate most, which is this specter of a group of elites running the world and, you know, creating a world in which no one else has agency but these elites. So suddenly you have a thing where it turns out,

you know, and yes, I mean, Bill Clinton is connected to Epis. Epstein, a whole long list of people, but no one is as closely connected to Epstein, to Jeffrey Epstein as Donald Trump. Okay, so no one is as closely connected to Jeffrey Epstein as Donald Trump. I'm very curious about this idea that the Russians and Putin in particular have some form of compromise on Donald Trump. And as we know, and as we've talked about before on the podcast, and you've mentioned, he sent in his golfing buddy and real estate buddy, Steve Whitkoff, to negotiate with Putin. He's had four meetings with the Russians. He won't take anybody else in. He insists on doing it on his own. So we have no idea what they actually talked about.

Where does the conversation on Friday... Well, let me give some additional background there. And let me go to Steve Bannon. And Steve Bannon is an interesting. and I think I will continue to bring up Steve because Steve, when he is telling the truth, is incredibly insightful about Donald Trump. Well, when Steve in public will be the defender of Donald Trump and be the ultimate MAGA guy, and in private he is, he eviscerates Donald Trump and tears him down. and actually I think understands him.

So, and I know the private Steve Bannon. Matter of fact, I know it's so well that I wrote about it and then got him got Steve cast out of the Trump circle and he has worked his way back into it. But let's go to what he has actually said because it's to me invariably insightful and incredibly smart about Trump. And I was with Steve in Europe. When Trump met Putin for a one-on-one meeting in Helsinki in 2018, I was with Steve Bannon and I were in Europe together. So we witnessed

the press conference that happened after that meeting. Now, I also know the background to that meeting is, is that Trump refused to prepare for it. Of course he did. And, um, and then refused to have anyone else in the meeting. So it was just, it was just Putin, Trump and the translators. And, um, and they came out of that, that meeting. I think that meeting may have lasted an hour and a half, two hours, something like that. It came out of that meeting. I'm with, with Bannon. And we're seeing this press conference. And, um, and Bannon says, my. God, he looks like a beaten dog, meaning Trump. Right.

And then Bannon went on to speculate what must Putin have on Trump. Michael, we're just going to take a break for some messages. And we're back with Michael Wolfe discussing the Jeffrey Epstein scandal that will not leave the president alone. Although Steve's thing that he was, his favorite was that they had, that Putin had Trump's college transcript. Which again have never been released that we would love to read. Which Steve said would be just the most... Trump could almost get away with everything else,

but the humiliation of his dees at the Wharton School would, might have crushed. And I always like to remind people, he went to Wharton as an undergraduate after doing the first couple of years of Fordham. Yes. And also worth pointing out that it's not Wharton School of Business. It's the undergraduate.

So he did not have an MBA. Right. At any rate. So again. Sputeman, who was one of his closest advisors, saw him coming out of the press conference with Putin and thought Putin has something on him. He looks completely beaten up.

Like a beaten dog. that's quote unquote. My God, I can just, I can hear Bannon now saying, he just could not believe it. And so anyway, so we're going to repeat that. One-on-one Putin and Trump in which they are going to decide the fate of Ukraine. And I predict that the Jeffrey Epstein story will then perhaps die down for a few days, if he really does give away large chunks of Ukraine and Zelensky is not part of it, that will definitely supersede the Epstein narrative, but it feels like the Epstein narrative is always going to come back.

Yeah, no. And it occurs to me, what does Putin know about Jeffrey Epstein? Inside Trump's head, Michael Wolf, you've taken us there. We've got to escape somehow. Thank you very much and more to come. Much more. Michael, how was that for you? An inaugural episode of Inside Trump's Head.

It was good for me, Joanna. How was it for you? Very fun, very fun. And I think you've always said that at some point, almost everybody in America is thinking, why is he doing this? And I think that we can come as close to answering that question as as it's possible. I think because we proceed from the point of view

that you have to get inside and the mainstream media view of press to the glass doesn't work here. If you've been listening, thank you. Please subscribe, share this podcast and leave us a comment. We want to do episodes that are based on comments, questions, some of your theories. This is important because what does everybody at some point, many people at some point every day, say, why is he doing this? Why is this happening? How did this happen? This is what we ought to come close, certainly closer, I think, than anyone else has to, answering those questions. All right, I will see you

later in the week. You will. Thank you to our producers, Devin Rodgerino, Anna von Erson, and our editor, Jesse Milwood. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts.

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