The Daily Beast Podcast - Truth About Claim Trump Ratted Out Epstein: Wolff

Episode Date: September 10, 2025

Trump chronicler Michael Wolff and the Beast’s Joanna Coles unearth Donald Trump’s bizarre entanglements with Jeffrey Epstein. From a birthday book signed by Trump to a shady mansion deal, to an $83 million judgment and claims of FBI informants, the hosts unpack the evidence, denials, and contradictions. They explore how Trump’s excuses collapse under scrutiny and why his ties to Epstein keep resurfacing. With Epstein’s letters and Trump’s own words raising fresh questions, the story only grows darker. And our hosts ask whether Trump’s connection to Epstein is a liability he can ever escape. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Joanna Coles. Oh, no, not again. You have to introduce yourself. Not everybody knows who you are, Michael Wolfe. I am Michael Wolfe, who has known Joanna Coles. It occurred to me on the way in for 25 years. 25. And we've had feuds along the way, I think it's fair to say.

I've had feuds with everyone, so that doesn't make you exceptional. Okay. Oh, that's sad, because I wanted to be exception. I do remember, though, we were having a feud. I can't remember what it was about. and I bought the audio book. In those days it was cassette tapes that I put into the car to listen. It was the book about Rupert Murdoch.

Rupert Murdoch, again in the news. Also, never out of the news, really. And it was like having you in the car. The man who owns the news was the name of that book. The man who owns the news was the name of the book. And I called you and I said, Michael, I feel as if I've been driving with you for five hours. And you literally said to me,

the feud is over. Actually, that's not the story. Well, that's my memory of it. The story was that you were mistakenly invited to the book party for the man who owns the news. And I saw you, I thought, why are we fighting? Is that true? Yeah, it's true. I think we actually had two separate feuds.

Anyway, I'm disappointed that I was mistakenly invited. I think I've been mistakenly invited to lots of things. so it's fine. Anyway, where are we going? Inside Trump's head. And you know, it gets, I used to say that casually, but it gets more and more frightened. I'm fizzing to talk to you because there is so much going on. We've got, I mean, I think areas for us to cover if we have enough time, the FBI informant, crazy story from Mike Johnson.

We have the birthday letter that Trump denied he ever wrote but has now been released by the Oversight Committee. The whole book, not just the letter. Right, the whole 230 pages. Yeah, which is really a profile of Jeffrey Epstein and a profile of power and a really depressing view of women. But we'll come on to that. We have the E. Jean Carroll settlement, the upholding of that.

Not the settlement, the judgment. Well, the upholding of the settlement, the $83 million. No, no, no, it's not a settlement. It's a judgment. Oh, all right. So they said Trump went to court on this and they ruled absolutely against him. And then the jury put a dollar amount on it, 93 million. Eighty-three million. Whatever.

But, you know, million here. Ten million here, ten million there. Which he contested. Now you're sounding like Jeffrey Epstein, which he contested. and the court's uphold it and said, actually, your behavior was so egregious, $83 million is exactly the right amount. So Trump is going to have to pay, in all likelihood, the full amount. Yeah, he can, in fact, refer it to the Supreme Court, but technically he's run out of appeals, and they can throw it back at him. All right, and then we also have an excellent piece in the New York Times magazine about J.P. Morgan's role in enabling Jeffrey,

Epstein, which once I started reading, I couldn't put it down. It reminded me of those great old vanity fair pieces that they don't do anymore. You remember the magazine business? Oh, the magazine business. I miss you. And this, of course, was in me. Gone or magazines. Well, this was in the New York Times magazine. Well, yeah, but that's, that's, um. So where do we begin such riches for us to pick over the jackals of information that we are? But, but if we're going inside Trump's head. Well, let me, let me, I know something about this. I mean, this Mike Johnson thing is completely fascinating because it's preposterous.

So let's just remind people of exactly what it was. So Mike Johnson came out and said that the reason that Donald Trump knows Jeffrey Epstein, the root of their relationship is that, I mean, really, is that Donald Trump was an FBI informer trying to bring down Jeffrey Epstein. It's so comical. And also, there's a memory where he goes, everybody knows this. Everybody knows it.

It's like, what are you talking about? Nobody knows this. Where did this come from? Well, let me just do the background here, because there is, in all Trump lies, whoppers, there's a grain of truth. And the grain of truth is that in 2004, Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump

had this big fight over a piece of real estate in Palm Beach. Epstein bid $36 million for this house, brought his friend Trump to see the house and advise him on moving the swimming pool. Trump went around his back and bid $41 million for this house. Epstein convinced that with an understanding of Trump's finances believed that he didn't have this money. Therefore, if he didn't have this money, he must be fronting for someone. So in Epstein's view, Trump was laundering money. And in fact, within less than two years, the $41 million house was bought for $95 million by a man by the name of Dmitri Ribelav, a Russian oligarch. Need I say more? So the house in Palm Beach doubled in value in two years? Yes, more than

doubled and valued. Yes. So this is this is a kind of a red flag for money laundering. But even before that, Epstein started to accuse his friend, now former friend Trump, of being a money launderer and threatening to expose him. Whereupon Epstein believed it was Trump, who, in the face of Epstein's threats, went to the police and made his own threats that Epstein was running, quote, a whorehouse. So, and that began, Epstein believed, his long legal problems. So anyway, jumping ahead to just the, just the other day. Right. When, when in the background. And hold on, the accusations of Trump money laundering are not new. No, no, there, there was this, when this happened, this, this, the sale of this house. I mean, the sale of this, I mean, the sale of,

of this house within two years, more than doubling, is a red flag and was a red flag at the time. Was it investigated at the time? That I don't know. It was certainly speculated at the time. I mean, there was a lot of press coverage on this. And these things are very hard to investigate. You know, I mean, it's a, you know, especially, I mean, the circumstance would essentially, be that Riebelev had given Trump the money to buy the house for $41 million. And then in turn, he would have bought the house himself two years later for the $95 million. So these are all inflated, not real numbers, but just giving him the opportunity to disguise a big sum of money. So the Russian oligarch is laundering his money and presumably Donald Trump gets a fee for doing this.

Yes, and even in Epstein described that Trump had previously told him, this is a good idea, you should do this. And he had compared it to, he says it's just my, they buy, purchase my name, like there are buildings and hotels that purchase my name. What's the difference? You're looking just. I'm just, please continue. At any way.

Please continue. At any rate. So the Epstein story, in the middle of the Epstein story, which Trump is panicked about. You know, I mean, the whole sequence of events, I'm going to release the Epstein files, but as soon as my attorney general starts to release them, you know, I say, you know, I go ape and say, no way, close this down. It's suddenly a hoax, hoax being a tell word for Trump when he's faced with a bunch of facts he can't explain. It's a hoax. folks and people are lying.

They hear this. Mike Johnson says that Trump is an FBI informer, and the people in the White House go, what the fuck? What is he talking about? Nobody knows this. Nobody's aware of this. Therefore, they immediately conclude,

because this happens again and again and again, that it was Trump who called Mike Johnson and came up with this story. Based on this kernel of truth, that it was Trump who first went to the police about Jeffrey Epstein. But not to protect the young women of Palm Beach, but to protect himself against Jeffrey. So he goes nuclear on Jeffrey before Jeffrey goes nuclear on him. Exactly. So he calls, so the White House is surmising, I just want to make sure I've got this clear,

that Donald Trump calls Mike Johnson and says, tell them I was an FBI informant. I was an FBI informant. Mike Johnson goes out and says this, whereupon everybody laughs at him and says, what are you talking about? Right. And so he has to retract this because it is completely preposterous. Right. So there are another Epstein chapter. Well, and again, one just looks at the people who are made to look foolish around Donald Trump, either by fawning over him as we saw at the tech dinner,

although as one friend said to me, you know, if that's all it takes, if all you have to do is sit around a table and say to him, you are the greatest. Actually, it's not very much to pay for... I think I was that friend. Oh, did you say that? No, but I think actually a friend in tech said it too, that if that's all it takes, you know, but maybe it was you.

Who knows? No, but it is interesting because if that's all it takes to get exactly what you want, So the message is that playing Donald Trump is easy. Well, and you saw it with the European leaders, right? When they come in and they sit around and they televise the meeting, and you've got J.D. Vance and you've got Marco Rubio sitting to the side and Pete Heggsard. You know, we can go on to the Department of War or defense or whatever,

or even that doesn't seem worth discussing, given everything else that's going on. And then you have the European leaders just going, oh, Mr. President, you're the greatest. Thank you so much for organizing this. Then you've got that at the tech dinner. But if that's all it takes, then it's a small price, perhaps. No, I think it's true. If you're willing to be publicly humiliated,

then you get millions and hundreds of millions of dollars, yes. Would you be publicly humiliated for hundreds of millions of dollars? I would be publicly humiliated for much less. For much less. But it's such, I mean, because there is such an interesting, debate. If you have all that money, if you're Tim Cook, if you're, you know, whoever was sitting around the table, Sergey Brim, who we're going to talk about in a minute. I mean, it's just, you know, I mean, at the center of this story, Epstein, Trump is greed. And,

and yes, these people are just greedy for more. Right. And I think the thing that people don't understand is just because you have a lot of money doesn't mean you don't want more. In fact, it almost might signal you do want more. Yeah, it does. And you need more. And you have to sustain this. thing that you've built. Right. All right. We went off on a tangent.

All right. So we dealt with Mike Johnson and the feeling that the White House had that Donald Trump told Mike Johnson go out and say I'm an FBI informant. Mike Johnson then realizing how ridiculous rolls it back. And again, and my wife now says that I interrupt you. Victoria, thank you. Thank you. So, but again, the important point.

to make here is that this is just another form of Donald Trump's denial about Jeffrey Epstein, something that he cannot deny because it is true and because more and more details of the truth come out. I mean, and the interesting thing is of all of the things that you could get Donald Trump on, this is the one that so far is sticking and sticking and sticking. Right, and I don't want to use the word noose, but I'm going to. It feels like the noose around him on the Epstein story is tightening. I mean, so the question is should we go to now? And I think we have to because the runway is clear to the birthday greeting.

The birthday greeting. Because it is, you know, because here again, Donald Trump, so the background to this is the Wall Street Journal was leaked So in 2003, Jeffrey Epstein turned 50 years old. Galane Maxwell organized a birthday book. She went around to everybody that Jeffrey Epstein knows his family, his friends, his girlfriends, his business associates, and got them to write a letter to be placed in this keepsake book. And the Wall Street Journal, when was this last month, got a, was leaked the page, the letter that Donald Trump supplied Galane Maxwell to put in the Jeffrey Epstein birthday book.

And the letter, you want to, so the letter is a sketch of a naked woman. I have a picture of the letter. And there is Donald Trump's unmistakable signature. I think we should do a dramatic reenactment of Donald's letter to Jeffrey Epstein, which is inscribed on the body of a naked woman. All right. Who do you want to be Donald or Jeffrey? You know, this is a really hard choice.

I think you should be the president. I'll be the president. All right. And it starts with a voiceover that says there must be more to life than having everything. Yes, there is. but I won't tell you what it is. I'm Jeffrey here, nor will I, since I also know what it is. We have certainly things in common, Jeffrey.

Yes, we do come to think of it. Enigmas never age. Have you noticed that? As a matter of fact, it was clear to me the last time I saw you. A pal is a wonderful thing. Happy birthday. And may every day be another wonderful secret. It's so creepy. It's so creepy. And then that... And then the signature, and then the signature, the Trump signature is the pubic hair on this woman. And actually his signature, oddly, does look like pubic hair. I thought that was quite good.

So anyway, this is... The Wall Street Journal publishes this, and Donald Trump says completely made up. Not true. A fraud. A hoax. A hoax. And then, going back to Rupert Murdoch, he sues Rupert Murdoch for $10 billion, $10 billion because of this hoax. And the Wall Street Journal says they stand by their reporting, because they obviously know the source they got it from. Who was?

Who do we think? We think it's the Maxwell family, which we think led. to the panicked visit of the number two in the Justice Department. Todd Blanche. Todd Blanche, Trump's personal lawyer to Galane Maxwell's prison in Florida, where she then produced a told the world how wonderful Donald Trump is and that she had never seen him do anything inappropriate ever and was immediately transferred to a much more comfortable

prison and the world anticipates her forthcoming pardon. Right. And a prison in Texas where she has a sister and she said she was thrilled for Donald Trump that he became president and she wanted to congratulate him. Right. Her sister is not in prison. Yes. To be clear, his sister lives in Texas.

But that's the relative that she has that she can go and visit her. So, Yelan is sitting in a Texas prison awaiting pardon. Trump has been asking people what to do, should he pardon her. We now have direct evidence. This letter appears to have been very clearly written by Donald Trump. He denies it. It's now been released by the House Oversight Committee, this entire book, with letters from lots of people. Clinton.

Well, Bill Clinton, Lord Mandelson, who's the British ambassador to Washington, who now says he wishes he'd never met Jeffrey Epstein, but in fact, in his birthday letter, says Jeffrey Epstein is his best friend. Oh, yeah. And we can do the Mandelson. I have background on that. Let's not do that now, but table that. That's for another episode, another episode.

At any rate, it is... Bill Clinton, Dershowitz, there were lots of people. Yeah, everybody, Leon Black. Everybody. Everyone we know about. Yeah. Epstein's mother, everybody. Everybody in his life. At some point I would like to do a deep dive on Epstein's parents.

We don't have to do it now because there's too much to get into that's newsy, but I would like to understand where he came from. Okay, table that and put it on the mandelson pile. Okay, on the mandelson pile. All right, I better write these down for future ideas. Yeah, keep going. So, at any rate, the oversight committee releases this book. It is, you know, credible on, on, on, on,

every basis. There's certainly nobody else denying that their letter was a hoax. So it turns out that somewhere in all of this book, somebody put a hoax letter from Donald Trump. So that the possibilities of that are nil. But this is also what he does, right? Look at the Stormy Daniels case. Stormy Daniels, he denies ever having slept with her. He denies it keeps on denying it, denies it through the trial. He's found guilty of financial crimes because he's paid her off and then denies that he's paid her off. And they structured it in endless, what was it, 13 separate payments of 12 grams of. Yeah, no, no, that was clearly.

I mean, this is what he does. He just denies, denies, denies, denies, even though courts find him guilty. Yes. But back to the main point, which is that he can't deny this. This letter is from Donald Trump to Jeffrey Epstein. It is clearly true in all regards. And it clearly puts Donald Trump at the center of Jeffrey Epstein's life and Jeffrey Epstein's activity and Jeffrey Epstein's behavior and Jeffrey Epstein's ethos. And in fact, in this book, there is a joke about, there's a, there's a check.

A novelty check. There are many letters in here that I found disturbing, but there is one that must have taken a lot of effort for a birthday book, which is a friend of Jeffrey standing there with a novelty check, one of those huge checks. Blown up, huge. Yes. If you've won the Powerball or something. and it's signed Donald Trump, fake signature of Donald Trump, and it says, Jeffrey is showing early talents with money and women sells fully depreciated, name redacted to Donald Trump for $22,500.

Shows early people skills too, though I handled the deal, I didn't get any of the money or the girl. So that's obviously one of his bankers or financial advisors, right? I mean, it's just so depressing. And also interesting that Donald Trump is the person who bought the depreciating asset. Michael, we need to stop for a moment. Why? Our sponsors. And we're back with Michael Wolfe discussing, is this the end of democracy?

The portrait of this book, the portrait of Epstein, is, goes to that he is, interested in, and that's perfectly sums it up, two things. He only has two interests, which is sex, girls, sex, and money. And Donald Trump is so completely connected to this, what are we calling it, lifestyle. That, you know, I just don't see how this does not continue to come back and haunt him. He can't get away from this. Well, there was also another very interesting piece in the New York Times magazine about how J.P. Morgan enabled Jeffrey Epstein's lifestyle and how valuable he was as a client of the bank because he made lots of very useful introductions, including I was very surprised by this. No, but even, yeah, no, that's, I know what you're going to say,

because it really is interesting and hasn't gotten the attention. There are a lot of details in this story that haven't got the attention. But the other thing, just to go to the background here is that it really is a portrait of how banks operate, private banking operates, with these kinds of people who are introducing, who know people. They know people they introduce to the bank, but because they know the bank, they get to meet other people. And the nexus here in this instance is Epstein. Right. And one of his enormous values to the bank. So even when he's gone to jail for sex offending, they keep him on as a client because he's so valuable.

One of the people he introduces them to, and I was actually astounded by this, is the co-founder of Google, Sergey Brin. Okay. A story. I digress because I was not surprised. surprised because I was there when Jeffrey Epstein met Sergey Brin. Okay, Michael, you are Zellig. You are Zellig. You are everywhere.

So, um... You're totally a Zellig figure. What do you mean you were there? Okay, okay. I'm going to, I'm going to tell this, this story, and this is a long digression. Oh, excellent. Okay, I'm settling in. I'm settling in.

In the year 2000, it's possibly 2001, but I think 2000, I was, um, I was, um, invited by the organizers of the TED conference to fly out to Monterey where the conference took place every year on a private plane. Do you want to go out on a private plane with a group of other speakers at the conference? And you have like a dinner party in the sky. Yeah, and I was like, yeah, sure. I mean, yeah, I mean. And I, but I had no idea whose plane this was.

and I didn't ask and didn't feel that that was a germane question, just a private plane, obviously. And so I was told the hangar to where I had to go at Kennedy Airport, and when I got there, there was a bunch of other people there, including Malcolm Gladwell, Stephen Pinker, Geraldine Laborn, the founder of Nickelodeon. And oxygen, the women's network. And oxygen.

And people I knew in the media business, John Brockman, the literary age, and everybody was kind of like, whose plane is this? Do we know? We didn't know. And we were led out onto the tarmac, and there were a bunch of G4s and G5s, and we head there, just kind of in mass, and then we're redirected to a 727. And that was like, hmm, this is an un-exam. expected. And we get on this plane, and the plane inside doesn't look like a plane. It's kind of a

sybaritic affair. And planes look entirely different if you take out the overhead compartments. And so this plane was... So what was it like a sort of nightclub? A plain nightclub? You know, it was a kind of combination between a nightclub in a boutique hotel. Right. Okay. And so everybody's on this plane kind of wondering, hmm, what are we doing here? Whose plane is this? And then this guy gets on, a kind of Ralph Lauren looking guy, Jeffrey Epstein, with three teenage girls, not his daughters. Was this the first time you'd met him?

This is the first time. First time I ever laid eyes on him, and I had never heard the name Jeffrey Epstein. And so he's, and these girls, women, I don't know what the, in this age thing, and I don't know how old they were. They very well could have been 19, 18, rather than 14. They probably weren't 14, but they probably weren't 22 either. So, and then they immediately became the people who served the food, this, this, the, as though the stewardesses. So they're passing around fruit platters, making sure everybody feels comfortable?

Yes, and if I can digress from the digression. Epstein once went to see MBS in Riyadh, in Saudi Arabia, and where you could not bring women into the country unaccompanied by a male relative, I think, except if they were airline stewardesses. Oh, so that was the loophole. So Epstein would dress the girls in airline stewardess costumes. Degression. It's so deep.

Back to this. So anyway, we're on this airplane, and Epstein is incredibly gracious and takes an interest in everybody. And then at one point that one of the people on the plane is the New York architect, David Rockwell. Can I just stop and say there is a lot of hair on this plane? David Rockwell has a lot of hair. Stephen Pinker has a lot of hair. Malcolm Gladwell has a lot of hair.

But I do not have a lot of hair. You do not have a lot of hair. Although back then you might have had more hair. I'm just observing. And Jeffrey Epstein had a lot of hair. Okay, so four men with a lot of hair. Yeah. So at any rate, I'm standing.

I'm talking to David Rockwell. And Epstein comes and says, oh, you know, I love your work, you're, this, that, this hotel, that hotel, which Rockwell has done. He said, would you mind looking at my, the plan, my plans for this island I'm building? and Rockwell, you know, he's on the guy's plane. He can't say no. So he says, so Rockwell looks at this kind of stuff. And then I'm standing there. So it's, it's, and Rockwell says, well, what are all these little rooms?

And Epstein says, deadpan. That's where the girls stay. And I remember Rockwell is, is, that shows nothing. I mean, because what are you going to do? What are you going to say? He's going to eccentric clients. Well, even I'm standing there and I'm thinking, how do you respond to this? I don't even know this guy.

And then this is then Rockwell goes on, changing the subject and says, well, what about this large area here? And Epstein says, that's where the girls comb each other's hair. Oh, God. So creepy. So, um, later in this, in this, um, flight. Also, let me just point out that there's no sound on this airplane. You know how noisy an airplane is? This has been insulated in such a way that you're in the sky. And no one can hear you screaming. And it's, yes. But you also can't hear anything. It's just like you're in a perfect

room. You're in a pair of noise-canceling headphones. I'm sitting in one of these incredibly comfortable chairs and Jerry Laybourne slides into the chair next to me and she leans leans over and she says I think this is the closest I've ever come to pure evil so she sensed there was something odd well it was odd yes um at any rate going ahead because we're digress from the Sergei brin but now we're going to get there to the sergey brin so so um at the TED conference, and the TED conference is very interesting, a very central nexus to Jeffrey Epstein's network. A lot of the people in the technology business, a lot of the scientists that he knows, he meets at the TED conference. So we're there, and then he invites a group of

people, some of the people who are on the plane, some other, to come out to the, um, to his, to his airplane, and I can't quite remember, was it specifically to meet the Google guys? I'm not sure because I don't think I even, I didn't know who the Google guys, I'm not sure I actually knew at that point what Google was. But at any rate, we go out to the airplane. The Google guys, Sergey Brin, Larry Page, and a couple of other people who were with them, get on the airplane. So this is the 727? Yeah, so I guess they understand that they are headed for enormous wealth. Certainly enough wealth to buy a plane.

Yeah, I didn't understand that at the time. But they seemed very, very interested in this. They got on the plane. First thing, they run through it, whooping. Right. I mean, like children. And then they talk about, well, could you get Wi-Fi and connectivity? and then they sit down, and I'm sitting there not really more witness than participant,

and Epstein is having a discussion with them, and he says, where did you come up with the name Google? And they say, this is without exaggeration, they say, oh, because we thought maybe we'd do a line of, of underwear, and I think it was underwear, but specifically a line of bras. And the two O's would be, would be, would be the cups of the bra. And now this is 25 years ago.

We've known each other for 25 years. And I remember it as vividly as if this were, yesterday. It's just so strange. The whole thing is so strange. Well, I was fascinated that Jeffrey Epstein had introduced Sergei Brin, who must be now certainly one of their wealthiest, if not their most wealthiest customers. And I think in the New York Times piece, it said he'd brought $4 billion worth of assets with him, for which Jeffrey Epstein, I'm sure, got a fine fee for the introduction. So one of the things I thought was most extraordinary about the piece was the detail it went into into the number of cash transactions that Epstein was making to take money out to pay

the girls. And this is interesting because it's a classic red flag for sex trafficking. Okay, we don't know, by the way, that this is money to pay the girls. We just know that this is cash coming out, which is the red flag. Well, they have all sorts of indicators. it was going to go. Some, yes, some, but this is a lot of money. So we don't, we don't know. There may be other. Well, there was four thousand seven hundred suspicious transactions totaling 1.1 billion. Okay. If that is the number, then we are talking about something much beyond just paying women, girls for massages, even paying settlements. I mean, even three a day, Even supposing he was spending a thousand dollars a day, you can't.

You still wouldn't get to $1.1 billion over 10 years. No, you wouldn't get there in a hundred years. Right, right. I'm agreeing with you. I'm agreeing with you. Yes. So what else was he doing with the cash? Right.

Right. We have no idea. Michael, we need to take a pause. Sponsors. Michael and I are back discussing, is this an autocracy? Is it fascism? Is it just Trumpism? What the hell is it?

is at the end of everything? Well, there was also an interesting detail that he'd put seven, so he put a lot of money into Gillen Maxwell's accounts, something that Todd Blanche raised with him. Yes, I think that was $7 million. Seven million dollars, yes. For green helicopter. Yes, but $7 million still from billions is so far off.

Totally agree with you. So I think. Remember Todd Blanche said to her, because she'd given him the figure of around $250,000, that Epstein was paying her, and then the next day he came back, clearly prompted by his staff and said, what about the 30 million? And she said, oh, I think he gave me 20 million for a helicopter. In this piece, he says that Epstein gave a 7 million for a green helicopter, very specifically a green one, a Sikorsky. Anyway, it's a fascinating piece, and it gives you insight into how

valuable he was to the bank, how the legal officer and the compliance officer both raised their hands and said there were red flags here for sex trafficking, and he remained a customer. Well, you know, I think the, if you remove Jeffrey Epstein's name from this, I mean, Jeffrey Epstein, in the description of his behavior, you think this is a completely unique and obviously reprehensive criminal. But if you remove his name, I think you get a very clear description of how banks operate at this level, not just with Jeffrey Epstein, but with hundreds of Jeffrey Epstein's. Now, whether they are all taking out cash or whether, do they all have sexual fetishes,

probably not. But what they do all have is they are all using the bank, using the bank to leverage relationships and using the relationships to leverage banks. I mean, it's just, to me, it's like one of those who knew things. This is the way this works. The MAGA people are right in saying that there is a cabal of, that there is something we don't see going on. And people are getting rich off of it and people are accruing power because of it. And these are the people with influence.

And we don't know how this happens. Well, this is a description. almost a roadmap of how it happens. Now, the problem with the MAGA people is that they see this as a organized cabal of people who get together and discuss what they're going to do and how they're going to do it and how they're going to make the world into what they want it to be. And it is not. It's a disorganized cabal of people.

Well, and the other thing that it shows you is how companies work. that people raise their hand, they'd point something out, and other people say, well, we're not going to look at that right now. And they're like, well, I've done my job. I've told you this is a sign of sex trafficking. And then somehow it doesn't seem to get far enough up the company that any action is taken until eventually it becomes, as you have always said, a PR problem.

Well, in this instance, most of the time it doesn't. I mean, that's the kind of thing with scandals. And the really the kind of fascinating thing, It's not the scandals that we know about. It's how many scandals that we don't know about. The scandals that we do know about are, you know, relatively speaking, flukes. Right. So there's a lot of this stuff going on that we never find out about.

But with Jeffrey Epstein, we do find out about it. And we should get into this at some other point, because it's also interesting that Jeffrey Epstein's fatal flaw was that he resisted flying under the radar. He wanted people to see him. He paraded around with these young women, young girls. He, you know, in the birthday book, there's a lot of reference to the articles,

and they were almost back-to-back that were written about him in New York Magazine, in Vanity Fair, in, you know, 2001, 2002. The mysterious Mr. Epstein. Yeah. And, you know, and it's just to continue with the, continue on with the digression. After that TED conference, he called me up, invited me to tea at his house to ask me because I was, you know, I was in the magazine business and a writer about the media, to ask me about the media. And he told me, you know, these people had called him to write articles about him and what should he do.

And I gave him the advice that I give everyone because people are always asking this. I said, if you don't want people to write about you, don't speak to them. Reporters call you up. Don't take the call. Well, he ignored that advice and, in fact, because he wanted this. You know, don't want it because I'm going to get found out. because I'm vulnerable, but I do want it because I want people to know who I am and what I am. And perhaps he enjoyed having this big secret that was sort of hiding in plain sight.

Well, the Trump letter, the secret. He did. He did. I want people to know that I get all these young girls, and I want people to know that I have all this money, and I want people to know to fly on my airplane. Yeah, it's, and again, I want people to know I'm friendly with Donald Trump, who eventually goes on to be president. I mean, we had on the Daily Beast podcast at the weekend a model and a former friend of Jeffrey Epstein's who talks about, she turned up in a very short white dress to see him, and he says, oh, you look like a nurse, let's find a friend of yours, you know, she can wear the same dress, I'll take you to Donald's, and he'll think I've arrived with two nurses on my arm. and she describes sauntering from his house on East 71st Street to Trump Tower and he arrives at, so he's walking down Fifth Avenue as if he's got a nurse on each arm and he goes into Trump Tower and it's a joke for Donald and he's showing Donald off to the girls and he's showing the girls off to Donald and that this is not a man who's hiding in, well, this is not a man who's being discreet.

He's flaunting it walking down Fifth Avenue in much the same way that Donald Trump says. I could shoot anybody on Fifth Avenue and nobody would care. Have I ever told you this story about the, about Epstein. Please don't tell me you dressed as a nurse. Epstein, Epstein, Trump, Girls and the Dogs? No. Maybe we should save it. I think we should save it for another day.

We should save it for another day. Michael, there's so much more to get into. I want to go for a further dive into that J.P. Morgan piece. but we have planes to catch and automobiles and what's the other thing, planes, trains and automobiles. But as ever, illuminating. And the net is certainly tightening around the president. He is unable to escape this Epstein narrative. Well, never say Donald Trump can't escape in the end, but we'll see.

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