The Daily Beast Podcast - Truth About JD and Usha Vance's Marriage: Wolff

Episode Date: November 5, 2025

Michael Wolff joins Joanna Coles to dissect the latest unraveling in Trumpworld: the controversial CBS News settlement, followed by their soft-ball sit‑down with Donald Trump. They question: Is this real journalism or a pay‑for‑play fluff piece? Later, they turn to JD Vance’s weekend spectacle—the public message to his Hindu wife, the viral hug with Erica Kirk, and what it reveals about Vance’s naked ambition to court MAGA while lacking the requisite authenticity to appeal truly. Along the way, they chart how the conservative media ecosystem is shifting, how Trump’s polling collapse and foreign‑policy chaos are fueling the vacuum around Trump, and how ambition, extreme rhetoric, and charged cynicism have become the new tools of power in Washington. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

J.D. Vance was, spoke at a turning point USA convention. In the course of his presentation, he said that he wished his wife, Usha, whose parents are Indian and she was raised as a Hindu. He wished that she would convert to Catholicism as he had done. I think that they're in it together and plotting to achieve the president. I am saying that their pillow talk is about power. We can taste it. All we have to do is bend this way and bend that way and, you know, do what endure what we have to endure. Michael. Joanna. Okay. First we have to begin with an apology which filled our comments. And I got lots and lots of emails from people quite rightly pointing out that of course, and I started this, we got. the name of the residence of Andrew, formerly known as Prince Andrew Rung. He wasn't, of course, of Frogmore. He was at Royal Lodge, a 30-roomed fabulosity, which he's being turfed out of. So that means my joke is ruined about being marched, frog-marched out of Frog-Marched.

I know. I loved your being frog-marched out of Frogmore, but alas, we'll have to save it for somebody else. Who does live in Frogmore? Yeah, well, I think Megan and Harry lived in Frogmore. I'm probably going to be immediately swamped with more comments and emails. But thank you for pointing it out. It's very, very helpful. I never want to get things wrong. I don't think you deliberately got that wrong.

I would say inadvertently. No, no, inadvertently, of course. Michael, did you watch the CBS or Fox Light, as it's now being referred to? interview with Donald Trump? Well, did anyone watch it? Does anyone watch 60 minutes? But I did see a variety of social media clips of the interview, completely appalling in every way.

Not just that Donald Trump is, of course, appalling and seems not to remember the, person who he clearly remembers who he pardoned. But even put that aside, the idea that 60 minutes would do this interview, would feel that it could do this interview with any kind of credibility. And let's remember that 60 Minutes had run an interview with Kamala Harris. They had edited as they do most interviews, as they have for 30 years. And then Donald Trump had sued CBS, the network that 60 Minutes is on. And CBS and its parent Paramount then settled for $15 million, a totally ridiculous

lawsuit, a lawsuit that they certainly would have won if they had, if they had gone to court. But in order to facilitate the merger that they were then in discussions with to merge with Skydance, the studio owned by the Ellison family, they slipped Trump $15 million. dollar. And I suspect, although we don't know this, that part of the settlement was that they would, that they would do an interview, a segment long interview with Donald Trump in very favorable, as you say, Foxlight terms. So this is, this is appalling and no one should watch this interview and no one should watch 60 minutes. it was the same number that on average watched 60 minutes last season. And of course, people watch the clips on YouTube now. But again, it goes too. And I want to make this point because I think it becomes more and more glaring, not only the timidity of the media, but the out-of-itness of network television, cable and network television. I mean, they just feel like they're from some other age.

It was also interesting that he knew that the founder of Binance, CZ, who had been pardoned, had only been jailed for four months. After saying that he had never heard of the man. Exactly. And then forgetting to say, oh, yes, he was actually fined $4 billion for allowing money laundering on the platform by Iran, by Hamas, and by al-Qaeda. Right. So the right response from the interviewer should have been,

what the hell are you talking about man? But of course, that was not the response. Well, we want you to interview Donald Trump, because that is an interview I would watch with great interest because you do know all the right questions. And of course, we have more questions for you to ask Melania, which we'll be getting to later in the show. And I guess there's much more to pick apart from the Trump interview,

but we're not going to do it here. Instead, we're going to talk about something which preoccupied people, certainly since last Wednesday, which is the J.D. Vance of it all. I know we promised we were going to talk about Russell vote today, but actually we're going to push that off to later in the week because the J.D. Vance, Erica Kirk, Ushah Vance story seems more, of the moment?

No, I did a brief little Instagram post about this, and it got a million and a half views. So I, and I think it's one of those stories in which people say can see, I think it's remarkably transparent what's going on here. J.D. Vance was, spoke at a turning point USA. I was going to say concert, I don't think we call them concerts, although they are, they appear to be as though, as though a concert. So this conference convention, so he spoke there and in the course of his conversate, in the course of his, of his presentation, he said that he wished his wife, Usha, who's, who's, who's, who's, who's, parents are Indian and she was raised as a Hindu, he wished that she would convert to Catholicism as he had done. I think that this is kind of rude to say the very least,

also unnecessary on so many levels. Why would you do that? Why would you say this publicly about your wife? He said it in answer to a question. right, which someone said you have an interfaith interracial marriage. Is your religion ahead of your wife's religion as you raise your children? So he threw her under the bus in common parlance or sent her to the back of the bus, as it were, the brown person. I mean, astounding. I mean, there are an uncountable number of people in the United States. United States of America in 2025 who are in marriages that cross religious and ethnic lines.

This is not a complicated thing. This is one of those things that we, that we, you know, that we that we understand as part of, as part of a human interaction and human understanding. And I would go so far as to say that if that isn't. issue in your marriage. Things may not turn out so well. And in most marriages, it is not an issue. And I suspect, here's the other thing here.

I suspect it's not an issue in the Vance's marriage. I suspect that this was a, that J.D. Vance is one of the most shape-shifting politicians of our time in probably among the most cynical. This was a give. a give to the MAGA people. So he's doing this to rally support from the MAGA base. Yeah, I think what is going on now and what is playing out behind the scenes

is as we move toward Trump's to understand, to the power vacuum that a lame duck second term president inevitably creates with then people trying to fill this. the MAGA people are going to be more and more trying to triangulate the heir apparent who is J.D. Vance. And as the MAGA people become more extreme, more focused on white preference, I mean, effectively as they become more racist, more anti-Semitic, and more about closing borders. That puts J.D. Vance into an increasingly difficult position. He can't, he probably can't, he can't hope to succeed in Republican primaries if he loses the MAGA base. And that's, that could very well happen.

Therefore, to speak to the MAGA base, to throw them a bone, the bone became his his brown wife. But, and what I'm saying, what I was saying is that, is that I suspect, number one, you would never ever say this in public about your wife. Even the creepiest person would not say this, say this. So what does that mean? Either it means he is outdoing the creepiest kind of person, or he and his wife have triangulated this themselves. So again, that this is a cynical gambit. He told her, and I actually suspect this is it, they plotted this out. You know, he has, you know, the presidency they see in possible reach.

But in order to get there, they have to do this. So they sat at the kitchen table and he said, or she said, you've got to throw me under the bus. It's absolutely fascinating. And their marriage itself is particularly interesting because we know that her parents were Democrats. She is incredibly highly educated. Yale undergrad, Yale Law School. She was a Gates Fellow at Clare College, Cambridge. She's not someone you would think of as being in any way leaning towards MAGA, though she did clerk for Justice Kavanaugh and Justice John Roberts. Well, let's make the distinction between leaning toward power or leaning toward MAGA. So they're leaning toward power, but in order to get to that power, you have to go through MAGA. It's obviously she's given up her job to travel with him and to look after the kids, which I totally get. And yet, in terms of the photographs that you see, she looks more.

and nor miserable. And you can't always tell, of course, but I'm always mindful of how Princess Diana was using photographs to tell the story of what was happening with her and then Prince Charles, like the picture of her sitting in front of the Taj Mahal on an India trip very much alone. And her signaling was, Charles is having an affair with Camilla. I'm here on my own and I'm lonely. And Ushavans, having started out looking sort of cheerful, looks thinner and smaller and more haggard. She hasn't had, as some of us predicted, a sort of transfer to the maga coding for how women turn up, like Kimberly Gilfoyle, who started natural and became drag queen. We have two views. You think that the marriage is heading toward the crapper, which is perfectly valid. I think that they're in it together and plotting to achieve the presidency.

I've no idea if the marriage is in the crap up. But you just described that was, I mean, you described. I mean, Diana, you know, that was, that's the portrait that you've painted, that it is more likely leaning in that direction or the possibility is that is leaning in that direction. and I'm saying the exact opposite. At the end of the day, what is their pillow talk? I am saying that their pillow talk is about power. We can taste it.

All we have to do is bend this way and bend that way and, you know, do what endure, what we have to endure. I mean, I don't think, I think, I mean, let's look at J.D. Vance and remember, changed his name, changed his religion, changed his entire political bearing. Remember when Trump was Hitler. Now Trump is the savior. I don't, I literally do not think he cares. I mean, I think that he, that this is all about the, getting from point A to point B with him. I do not believe he believes any of this. I do, I believe they, I believe they. he thinks Donald Trump is a, is, if not Hitler, certainly a cretan. You know, the truth, the truth is that J.D. You know, J.D. Vance wrote a very, very intelligent book. He wrote it

himself. He is a, he is a, he is demonstrably a nuanced thinker. So the fact that he's in this position that he is now as the as the you know the the the the butt boy to Donald Trump is is is is not what a a nuanced is not the position a nuanced writer would end up in except if he has a grander plan Michael hold on a second we're just going to take an outbreak and Michael and I are back inside Trump's head. So do you think when they're shutting down at night in their bedroom in the observatory, he's saying, oh my God, I was so right, of course he's the new Hitler. What a nightmare. How much longer are we going to have to put up with this? No, I think it's much more nuanced than that. I think they're plotting every single day what this person said to that person, what that person

said to that person and what we have to do on an incremental basis to parry, to neutralize, to advance. And the Hindu faith, I was talking to Indian friends about this over the weekend, is a very pragmatic religion. It's not proselytizing in the way that J.D. claims that Catholicism is, although I don't actually think Catholicism is proselytizing like that. He was sort of claiming that it was duty as a Christian to tell others. and convert them, which I grew up in the Church of England and was never part of our message, though I get the remission trips if you're a Mormon. And it's more of an evangelical trait, which he grew up in. Yeah, no, no, it's completely more of a, yeah. I mean, it's, I mean,

it's, I mean, the whole thing is peculiar in trying to play any, any advantage. Do you think they are the most power hungry couple in D.C.? No, I think that the D.C. is full of power hungry people. And I think that's what's going on right now. As soon, you know, Donald Trump, we, the, the inside circle of Republican ambition begins to see the, the vacuum created by Donald Trump, that he won't run again, even if he is trying to obscure that fact by, by announcing here and there, that, that a third term, that there is a world of, a world. a third term. You know, I mean, he's, it becomes, it becomes important for you to try to distract from

the fact that you are a lame duck. So I think that's partly what's going on there, although at the same time recognizing that this is Donald Trump. So we don't know what will happen. But, but assuming we're on a, we're on an historical term. timeline here, the midterms will happen and then we will begin to prepare for who will be the nominee on both the Democratic side and the Republican side. And so power, there are going to be a lot of power hungry people on both sides, Democrat and Republican, who will begin to make their

moves. So let me ask you something because the one thing that we haven't picked up on around their marriage, which the internet was absolutely full of over the weekend, was his hug with Erica Kirk. Yeah, no. I mean, I mean, I don't think, if we follow your path for their marriage, then, yes, the, the, the storybook, so to speak, ending would be for J.D. Vance to marry Erica. Kirk. That would be the ultimate, the ultimate shape-shifting power move. There were a lot of behavioral experts online over the weekend, analyzing and breaking down

the hug, her long fingernailed fingers in his hair, his sort of patting her back. I mean, it's very, well, it's very hard to have any idea what's going on inside someone else's marriage, right? No one knows. Well, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've just presented two options of what might be going on inside this, this marriage. Well, and there may well be a third option that we have no idea about. Perhaps Usha's having a wildlife on the side. Um, she's certainly not giving up that vibe. She's giving off a very obedient wife vibe. Well, I mean, I think that's part of the part of the plot from, from, from your point of view, from your point of view, it's part of the, you know, the Stockholm syndrome.

Well, just another, just another room one longs to be a fly on the wall. But, you know, I mean, recognize what's at issue here. I mean, this person has come in a very, this is J.D. Vance has come in a very, very short period of time to, to within the grasp of, of the ultimate? No, it's the brass wing. The brass ring is right there for him and he's reaching for it. What has he done to get there so far? And what would he do to get the rest of the way?

And who else is he up against? Yeah, and I think one of the things, I mean, he is clearly up against and clearly has to deal with a fast morphing, transmogrifying MAGA movement. So MAGA, which used to be, exists just to be the the um just to express its loyalty to Donald Trump and and to be a a very efficient list for Trump merchandise um is is is is now becoming becoming something else and you can see breaks all over the place with with Donald Trump breaks on Epstein breaks on Israel um Marjorie Taylor Green is

is bolting from the, from the barn door. Tucker has become some you know, extreme version of extreme even for MAGA and the Nick

Fuentes thing the other day. I mean, actually introduced Nick Fuentes you know, a an unreconstructed anti-Semi pro-Nazi-ish, incredibly gifted social media person. And indeed, founder of the Groypers, right? Yeah, I'm a little vague on exactly what that is.

I think they are pretty racist Nick Fuentes supporters. But Nick just did Nick, as if I know him, I've never come across him, Just did a big interview with Tucker Carlson. Yeah, no. I mean, you have enormous resonance already in the Republican Party of people trying to reject this and and sort of very clearly articulate the split in the Republican Party between the mega party. So Vance is the guy who has to somehow navigate that.

for in order for him to become the, um, uh, the ultimate nominee. I mean, it's very, it's very possible that, that,

that Tucker is in this fight. I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure, whether he ultimately gets in or not. I'm sure he hasn't decided, but, but he is testing that clearly.

And in order to do that, you would have to succeed to the right of J.D. Vance. So they're all. swimming as far right as they can and then the goal will be to come a bit more central once the election hits? Yeah, well, I don't know. I mean, the primary dynamic, you don't know what that is yet going to be, but the primary

dynamic could be an extremely right dynamic, a mega dynamic. those are the people who are most passionate about. Do you think J.D. Vance could be popular enough? You know, I mean, I find him very uncharismatic. I find him a little creepy. I find the, you know, the cynicism kind of hardly below the surface. I think he's a phony. And I think that in today's world,

is something that's hard to navigate when you are not legit. On the other hand, to be perfectly honest, I think Tucker is a phony on this. I mean, I know Tucker, I've known him for a long time. I'm actually quite fond of him on a personal basis. And we should spend some time on that. Because I think that journey from country club Republican to far right anti-Semis, racist, Nazi, whatever he is now, is an interesting journey. But I actually have spent a lot of time with Tucker,

and I have always found him in person to be actually reasonable, funny, sensible, everything that he is not in his new persona. So it's a very cynical way to whip up people who weren't always voters. Yeah. And I think it's responding to Donald Trump, who is, you know, and that's the confusing thing because Donald Trump is the ultimate cynical person while at the same time actually being himself. It's such a confusing combination. It's as though what he is. He says,

Hey, I'm cynical. I would do anything. I'm not hiding. I'm not hiding this in any way. And the other people are saying, no, I'm not cynical.

I truly believe this. And I am, I am, you know, a confirmed misogynist, racist, whatever. And that's the different thing. that Trump is truly transparent and these other people are not and they're making it up and hiding.

Well, it'll be interesting to see whether or not people resonate with that or whether or not they understand the level of cynicism and whether or not they want that. Because at least Trump is an entertainer, whereas the rest of them aren't. It's nothing entertaining about J.D. Vance. He's cringe. Well, Tucker is an entertainer, actually. Tucker is, that's true. I mean, Tucker is, you know, Nick Fuentes is incredibly, I mean, you've got to stop yourself when you, when you listen to him, because you kind of go, oh, this is, you know, and you're following along and thinking, you know, time is passing nicely and I'm occupied. And then you think, oh, my God, this is, you know, I mean, I mean, he's going to start killing the Jews any minute. Let's go back to Nick Fuentes in another episode soon because he is this really emergent, a kind of extraordinary, not to mention, heinous voice.

We can do that. Michael, hold on. We're just going to have a word from our sponsors. And Michael and I are back inside Trump's head. And also what I think is interesting is that politicians are now coming from different places. You don't have to do your years as a congressperson or as a senator. Social media is throwing up different voices. They can build audiences and that becomes enough.

Obviously, that's why a reality television star is the president in the United States. Yeah, but that was at least 14 seasons of television. This is different. Nick Fuentes would never get on broadcast television. But it turns out he can thrive online. So can Tucker, who used to be on MSNB, and then he was on Fox before he got tossed in the deal over the Dominion voting machine settlement. You forgot CNN.

Oh, and he was on CNN as well, was he had forgotten he was on CNN. So these voices can't survive on the traditional broadcast media anymore, but they don't need it because they're online. Traditional broadcast media voices can't survive on broadcast media anymore. And now it's time for our Ask Melania segment. This is where we ask viewers and listeners to write in with your questions for Michael to ask Melania, our first lady, under oath, because he's begun an anti-slapsuit against her. Michael, do you just want to explain to people briefly what that is? Well, briefly, it is illegal in the state of New York to sue people for defamation with the only. intent not of winning your lawsuit, but of shutting them up. And Melania Trump and her lawyers

have threatened to sue me for $1 billion for what I have said about her relationship and Donald Trump's relationship to Jeffrey Epstein. And so instead of apologizing and paying them the $1 billion as they want, I in fact turned around and sued them. So this is the opportunity for you to ask your questions about the First Lady. You can ask Michael to ask them on your behalf. So first question. And this is from the Res Bob. Could the First Lady as a wife have her husband, a president, committed?

If she could prove his mental incapacity, could Melania have him committed? it would also tear up the prenuptial. And I actually think the answer to that is no. It's a bit like a plot line from the diplomat. Yeah, I think it is that, I mean, there is a constitutional framework in which to declare a precedent incompetent, but it requires the cabinet not dispels. And it's the 25th Amendment. Yes.

Susan Zacherson says Virginia's suicide proves that all. all the money in the world can't heal trauma. And then Bettina 8688 says, I wouldn't be surprised if Trump demolishes the entire White House and relocates the United States Capitol to Florida. How would you feel about that? Palm Beach, Palm Beach. Well, I would be surprised.

You would be surprised. But, you know, I've been surprised many times in this long saga. Well, then it's one of the ways that Trump keeps people's interest, right? by surprising us. Unexpected moves every day, possibly every hour. So Michael, very exciting. We will see each other live on Wednesday for our first live event. What are you wearing?

I don't know what I'm wearing. I notice we're both in full colours today. What colour brown is that? I got your pants wrong the other day. I said they were chocolate and you said, no, no, they're tobacco and you were right. What colour is that? I'm afraid this may be tobacco too. Oh, your mainlining tobacco.

There's a lot of tobacco going on. I don't know what color this is, but I like it and it feels fully. It's got a slight plaid to it. But live seems to demand some other thought. I can't go like this live. Live is live. But you're not going to wear your cardigans. No, I think you have to show up on stage in a proper suit.

I'm quite surprised that no fashion designer has yet approached you to be in a campaign, a sort of New Yorker campaign where you're wearing a cardigan. I mean, it's an unlikely, you're an unlikely model, and yet everybody would recognize the value of a male cardigan. Are there cardigan makers? If there are, I'm, you know, call me Mr. Rogers. I think there are probably a lot of ladies out there knitting you cardigan. Bring it on.

And there might be gentlemen too, actually. I don't know why I'm being sexist about that. It's easy how one falls into these tropes. Anyway, I don't know what I'm wearing yet. I'll think about it. But I'm very much looking forward to it and getting questions from the audience too. Great.

I will see you on Wednesday. I will see you on Wednesday. Go back to your lovely house and some nice home-brewed coffee. And don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. subscribe to the podcast. We are independent media, so your support really means a lot to us, as do your comments. And leave us a review on Apple, Spotify, and wherever else you get your podcasts. Thank you for joining us, if you have been.

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