The Daily Beast Podcast - Tucker Carlson Is Doing It for the Fish Sticks w/ Adam Schiff

Episode Date: October 29, 2021

Adam Schiff talks with Molly Jong-Fast about the Big Lie and the cult of Trump, and Molly has some thoughts about Tucker Carlson’s new “Patriot Purge” special: He basically runs the network now, and he’s promoting a civil war: “He’s obviously doing this for the fish sticks. I mean, that’s the only thing that makes sense. No! I mean the whole thing is a complete and utter total nightmare!” Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Molly Jong-Fast and welcome to The Daily Beast, The New Abnormal. I'm a left-wing pundit and an editor-at-large at the Daily Beast. We're here to have fun, sharp conversations with some of the smartest people in media, politics, and science that help make what's happening in the country and the world clearer. Our world has been turned up to down. On the new abnormal, we'll talk about the people who got us into this mess and figure out how to get ourselves out of it. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon. I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails.

Today's episode is short, but boy, is it packed with interesting stuff. First, we're going to talk to Congressman Adam Schiff, who of course represents California's 26th district and sits on the January 6th commission. And is, of course, the author of Midnight in Washington, how we almost lost our democracy and still could. Then we'll talk to NBC News Digital Reporter John Allen, who also authored the book, Lucky, how Joe Biden nearly lost the presidency. John Allen. Molly John Fair, queen of the podcast. Welcome back to the new abnormal. We are friends, so you will not be mad at me when I give you a very hard time.

Is it about how I look on television when I have too much facial hair growth? No. You'll always look gorgeous to me. No, I want to talk to you about the media's coverage of Build Back Better and the American Rescue Plan. I have been watching television this morning cable television while trying to figure out what's going on. And I think that the mainstream media is being kind of unfair, almost like a little bit hostile. The mainstream media hostile? I don't think anyone would believe you. I don't think anyone would agree. The Biden White House wouldn't agree with you that the mainstream media is hostile. The Trump White House wouldn't agree. No, everybody would agree with you. The mainstream media often sounds hostile. What I want to talk about is.

is when we're recording this right now, Biden has given a speech where he has said, we have the framework. Numerous Democrats have come out and said we have the framework. I've watched a number of pretty tense interviews with members of the media who have tried to get Democrats to say they're not going to vote for it until they see what's in it. It's not clear if Pelosi's going to do a vote today. Where are we here? Let's start with the two senators, mansion and cinema. What they want right now, which is the same thing as what Democratic leaders in the House and the Senate and President Biden want, is for that infrastructure bill to become law. Biden has talked about, the White House is talking about his, you know, Europe trip and how,

you know, having some of this stuff set for his Europe trip is a big deal. But the real political driver on this, because there's no actual deadline. The real political driver is the Virginia gubernatorial race next Tuesday. And there's a belief that it is helpful for moderates to have the infrastructure bill signs still delivered. And specifically for Terry McCullough, who probably defines himself as progressive on some days, but it's generally thought it was a fairly moderate establishment Democrat. So there's that impetus, right? And certainly for mention it's in what they want to get the infrastructure bill done,

whenever they can get it done. There's a lot of feeling in the pundit class that if this gets passed, it will help Terry McCullough in Virginia. Right, that's sort of the conventional wisdom. Is there anything tangible that people are going on or just? No, it's just a feel. Look, McCullough has asked the White House to move on the infrastructure bill. Certainly his camp believes that it's helpful to him.

I think they probably believed it would have been more helpful a month ago than it is now. But, you know, no, there's no empirical evidence about it. It's simply what they think, you know, what the people around and think. Now, if your mansion in cinema, you want to get this infrastructure build on. And so when the framework, when the White House comes out and says, hey, there's a framework, you are going to say the most positive thing you possibly can about that framework. And so that's what we're seeing, right? Cinema came out and said, look, we made some progress. I'll look forward to getting this done.

But does not mean she has signed off on the build back better bill. But the idea is to try to get progress is comfortable with the idea that they're not going to lose the build back better bill if the infrastructure bill becomes law. think that happened today? I don't think that they bought it. That doesn't mean that they won't vote for the infrastructure bill if it goes to the floor, right? That is to say, like, I don't think they're convinced that, like, cinema and mansion are going to do what progressives want on a reconciliation bill. That's a different question than, like, how do you vote if the president's infrastructure bill is on the floor? And will they really take it down? And if they do really take it down. You know,

what does that do for the process, right? There's an argument to be made that like some steam needs to come out of the room and maybe that maybe a defeated bill on the floor even though Nancy Pelosi doesn't want to do that for her legacy and, you know, for a variety of other reasons. You see

a world where Nancy Pelosi takes a bill up that doesn't pass? I don't. Can people say that she won't do that? And there's all this like sort of, you know, sort of revisionist history that she's never brought a bill to the floor that lost. that's just not true. I've watched

her boom to the floor lose before. The biggest example was the financial services bill that basically the bailout package

in 2008 that came to the floor and failed. Now, she wasn't doing it to lose. There wasn't like a deceptive vote going on there.

It wasn't like she brought it with the intention of losing. And I don't think she would bring an infrastructure to build to the

floor of the attention of losing. That said, it may be difficult to get those 218 votes. And you say like the media

is asking people is this enough for you? Part of the reason is so many of them have gone out there on a limb, on the progressives, have gone out to turn a limb and said, we're not going to vote for this unless we've read legislative text, right? They don't have legislative texts of all these proposals. They are literally dropping tax, like complicated tax policies into this framework at the last possible moment. That happens.

I mean, that's what happened with Obamacare. I mean, you know, that's how a lot of legislation gets passed. It's like, you know, are we going to crash the economy? me with the dead ceiling, are we going to, I mean, I feel like the hostility that the mainstream media has towards this, like, I mean, isn't that how it often goes? Yes, the mainstream media's job is to point out the difference between what the politicians within the agenda are saying and what the truth is. So they will always sound less bullish about whatever than a politician who's trying to get the thing past sounds.

Right. Like the journalists don't, if they're doing their job, right, they don't have a rooting interest except to try to show the difference between what's being said and what the reality is. Right. But I do think you can see how Biden, he knows how to do legislation. He was in the Senate for a million years. Like, and part of it is kind of bullying people to go along with things.

Yes, but right now he needs to be bullying the progressives. And that's basically what he's doing, right? Like, this is the moment at which the White House decided to try to roll the progresses. And the question is, does it work? Right. And, you know, we live in an era in which, you know, 30 or 40 years ago, a president could legitimately say to a member of Congress, if you don't go along, you will not have my support in your next election. You will not have the support of the party in the next election. Nobody cares about that any, right? Or at least it's a much smaller factor in their thinking. So like the tools that the White House has to lobby and bully and cajole and whatever,

like they have disappeared. Your marks are gone. I mean, all of these tools that they used to have are gone. And so it's, you really have to, it really either has to be that somebody agrees with you on the policy or that your personal relationship with them is strong enough, that they're willing to take some hits for you. But if you're one of the progressive leaders right now and you agree to go forward, on this infrastructure bill and some of your other progressive leaders don't, they will then be able to point at you and be like, that person's the trader, right? Like, there's this whole incentive

structure that is to be the most extreme, the most stride, and whatever. I think the vast majority of the Democrats in both the House and the Senate would vote for pretty much anything that falls between $1.5 trillion or $3.5 trillion and has some of the policies that have been discussed, right? Like, they just want to get these things done. And it is mansion and cinema in the Senate, to some extent Bernie Sanders in the Senate and the House progressives and a handful of House moderates in the House that are frustrating the desires of the White House and also the vast majority of Democrats on Capitol Hill and the vast majority of Democrats in the country. So what do you think happens now?

We'll have to see, you know, because we're talking about this before the infrastructure bill comes to the House floor, we'll have to see. But one of the things that's very instructive about the scramble to get this framework done this week is how far away they are from actually mailing down the details that can get both moderates and conservatives on board for the reconciliation bill. And there's going to be an effort to re-litigate it, right? Like, no matter what happens with infrastructure, there are going to be people that say, look, there needs to be paid family and medical leave in this bill, and it's been dropped by the wayside. Or, you know, it's amazing that, you know, vision and dental under Medicare will

dropped from this, right? The thing reporting Sanders cares the most about. So I think there's a real distance between a framework and legislative language that people you would vote for. And so no matter what happens with the infrastructure bill, they still have a lot of work to do on the reconciliation bill. Right. I know this is partisan, but I'm partisan. I'm on the opinion side. So it's so sue me. But don't actually sue me. I listen to the Biden speech. And like, it is amazing to me that Republicans are to vote against all of these things that are seemingly very good for their constituents. Yeah, welcome to America in the 21st century. Right? I mean, like high speed trains, climate stuff. I mean, who doesn't want that? Well, some of them are going to, I think some of them

are likely to vote for the infrastructure bill, but if Pelosi brings it to the floor and it's a close vote, you could see that handful of Republicans hold back their votes until the Democrats can get 218 on their own. But as far as the reconciliation bill goes, all the Republicans are against it. They're against the tax increases. They can justify it through that. They're against the overall size of the spending. They're, you know, they can justify it through that. So, you know, they feel comfortable politically that they can say, look, I'd love to expand the child tax credit, but I'm not going to do it at a cost of, you know, 1.75 trillion over 10 years, or I'm not going to do it with increased taxes, they're going to make, you know, businesses less competitive.

Yeah. Interesting. Thank you so much. This was great. Thanks, John Allen. Hey, folks. If you haven't heard every single week, we do a special bonus episode for Beast Inside, the Daily Beast membership program. Sometimes we interview senators like Corey Booker, or the folks who explain what's happening behind the scenes in media, like Jim Acosta or Soladad O'Brien. Sometimes we just have fun and talk to our favorite comedians and actors like Busy Phillips or Billy Eichner, and sometimes we just have friends around to analyze what's happening in the news. You can get all of our episodes in your favorite podcast app of choice by becoming a beast inside member where you'll support the beast's fearless journalism, as well as getting full access to podcasts

and articles. To become a member, head to new abnormal. That's new abnormal.thedailybeast.com. Congressman Adam Schiff represents California's 26th District and is the author of Midnight in Washington, how we almost lost our democracy and still could. you abnormal, Adam Schiff. Great to be with you. I have a lot of questions for you. The first is

Jesse and I have become increasingly concerned about democracy. And, I mean, we were always concerned about democracy, but I don't know if you know this, but last night... Now it's like a teenager who seems like they're going to crash the car and has a bottle of their head at all times.

Right. And last night, Tucker Carlson started, he's doing a movie about January 6th called The Patriot Purge, which is painting the entire insurrection as, in fact, like, a way of punishing Trump supporters for supporting Trump rather than an insurrection. What do we do? You know, I saw the preview for that. It was chilling. It's not only revisionist history, but it's also filled with these violent images that seem to be encouraging armed rebellion against the government. It is just so breathtakingly

irresponsible and conducive to violence, you know, in terms of what can be done about. But, you know, we're at a very tenuous point in the history of democracy, where in addition to, you know, these singularly destructive voices like Parker Carlson, who are holding up Victor Orban in Hungary that want to be dictators, the model we should follow. You have people running around the country still pushing the big lie to strip independent elections officials of their duties and give them over to Trump acolytes who will overturn the next election if they lose it. It's a pretty frightening moment right now. And you write about this in your book. I do. Really, the book, Medi Night in Washington is designed to sound the alarm about the fact that our democracy is not self-effectuating. It's a great risk right now.

And I wanted to tell the story of how that happened. There's been a lot written about what happened in the Trump White House, but not much written about what happened in Congress. And without all of the enablers in the U.S. Congress, Trump would not have been able to tear down any of these Democratic guardrail. How does that happen? That good people that I work with come to surrender everything they believed in, their ideology, the morality, in the service of this flawed man. This is a question I often have, like, that I ask myself that's sort of philosophical. Are they pretending to be crazy in order to like fend off a primary challenge? Like what's happening with Governor Abbott?

Or are they genuinely crazy like, amt? No, they're not. I think the NTGs are, you know, legitimately nuts. But most of the Republican conference that's pushing the big lie understands it's a big lie. They're not stupid. They know exactly what they're doing. And it is just a craven capitulation to Donald Trump because they fear a primary, because they want to advance within the party. You know, you had, you know, figures of courage like Liz Cheney say, I'm not going to do that. That's destructive our democracy. But for every one of this chain, there are five, like Elise Thaughnic, willing to say, well, you know, if you're not willing to push the big lie, I volunteer. You know, nothing's more important to me than my

ambition. And if it means tearing down one of the pillars of our democracy, the pillar that says that we allow elections to determine who should govern, then sign me up. Sadly, that's where most of the Republicans are right now. And it's astonishing how quickly Donald Trump was able to remake one of America's great two parties in this case, to an autocratic cult of his personality. So one of the things that Mashigatson told me, which has really stuck with me, and obviously Russia is a good example, though we've had people on here who've said that Russia was never a democracy, but still Russia isn't a place where we would like America to never get. They said that narrative is the only way to fight fascism.

you have an opportunity with January 6th to have hearings and narrative. Where are you with that? Well, I think that's exactly right. I mean, the antidote to this effort to rewrite history and to push out lies that undermine our democracy is the relentless pursuit of the truth. And I think we're making great progress. We are interviewing and proposing people almost every day. People are cooperating. We're getting documents from different agencies.

Not everyone is cooperating, certainly, and those that are fighting us are very public, and we're holding them in criminal contempt like Steve Bannon. But we're proceeding with great speed and diligence and with a uniformity of purpose. We want to get out the truth. We're going to have more public hearings, and we aim to write a defendant report about this dark chapter of our history. Just from a personal standpoint, I think public hearings are going to be more effective. I don't think those reports. I mean, I wrote something on one of the Senate reports, and it is really they just come and go. So, you know, people don't.

It's like the culture just is not, is no longer book-based. Yeah, no, I hear you. And I think the public hearings are going to be extraordinarily important. But we've done in many investigations like we did in the Ukraine investigation, I was we begin with private depositions and interviews, and then we hold public hearings. And I think that's what we'll be doing here. And then the other thing I wanted to ask you about with Steve Bannon, So we talked about that the last time someone was held in contempt of Congress was like in in, you know, was a guy who fought with the postmaster general and, you know, when he was held in the Willard Hotel. I mean, Congress really has the power to hold Steve Bannon in contempt. Can you talk about that?

Yes. I mean, there are several different routes we could take. I think the most powerful is the one we have pursued first, which is holding him in criminal contempt. intent. So when he failed to appear without good cause, we voted the report out of committee to hold him a criminal contempt. We passed it on the House floor. The speaker sent it over to the Justice Department to be prosecuted. And the statute says they have a duty to present it to the grand jury. Now, as you say, they don't always follow that duty. But here, I think there's good reason to believe they will. The Justice Department has made available to committees on Congress top ranking former Justice Department officials without any assertion of privilege. They're not asserting asserting privileges with respect to thousands of documents we're seeking that were created

predominantly during the prior administration. And I think that Merrick Arlen understands the need to reinstate the rule of law, that no one gets special treatment, that no one's above the law. There are other alternatives. And I think what you may be be referring to is the process of inherent contempt. We don't even need to refer to something to the Justice Department. But that's not a perfect remedy either because, for one thing, we don't have a jail anymore to hold someone. And even if we did, even if we did, you know, they would file a habeas corpus petition and we would have to be litigating in the court anyway. But I think the fact that we're seeking prosecution abandoned has already had a salutary impact on other witnesses

in getting their attention and making sure they understand their real consequences if they were And I mean, Steve Bannon has been to jail before. Like, he does know what to pack. I have to make that joke one more time. You know, I have to, apropos of that, point on something that to me just sums up how this, today's geopolitics become a cult. A man runs for president on a platform of building a wall that he says Mexico is going to pay for.

It's an absurd idea to begin with. He becomes president. Of course, he doesn't build a wall because, Mexico's not going to pay for him. And then his buddies, including Mr. Bannon, raise money from his own supporters to purportedly build a wall,

steal it, and then he pardons them for stealing from his own people. It's the most consummate den of thieves and grifters imaginable. That is a really good, a good focus narrative. So let's

talk this morning. Morning Joe had a big break that Biden has negotiated a deal, it's coming, you know, this is all done, we're going to have Bill Buck better. Then about a minute later, Jake Sherman, who does punchball, retweets Brendan Buck, who used to work for Paul Ryan. It's not even believable spin. You'd have to not be following Congress to believe that there's really a deal. What's going on? Well, the sure answers, I don't know whether we have a deal yet. I think we've been narrowing in. on an agreement, whether we've got there yet or not. I really don't know. The president is

going to be meeting with us. I think we'll get a good sense then. But I do have confidence that at the end of the day, and I don't know if it's today, but at the end of the day, we're going to get this done. And the combination of the human infrastructure, build back better bill, the physical infrastructure bill, and the rescue plan are going to be combined. The biggest investment we've made in the American people, at least since the Great Society, if not since the New Deal. No, I mean, I agree. But it is interesting to watch this sort of, I mean, there's a lot of machinations going on, and it's clear that it's not, you know, but there is a certain amount of, like, it strikes me that there's a certain amount of pundant hostility towards the deal. Yes, well, I've been astonished actually listening to the coverage of it, which, you know, has been so focused on, you know, what's the number that they're going to assign to it. without really talking about what's in it and the impact it'll have on the country.

You know, I think the punditry is much more interested in sort of inside the beltway fighting than they are. And what's we can change is we're going to make for the country. Yeah, I think that's right. Again, I feel like we're up against this Democratic messaging problem. Like, Democrats are doing good things now. They need to be sure that Republicans don't take credit for it. Well, I think you're right. I mean, we set expectations so high that even when we get this massive investment done, we risk disappointing people that there's not even more in it.

Right. One of my colleagues summed up so well when he asked me the other day, you know, what if I told you at the beginning of the year that we were going to pass a rescue plan that would lift half the kids in the country out of poverty and we're going to pass a huge infrastructure bill to make long overdue investments in infrastructure, that we're going to pass a bill back better bill that was going to do all these things. What if I told you we're going to get that all done in the first year? What would you say? I said, I would think that would be incredible. It would be an amazing record of achievement. And we're going to do all that. But I think we've raised his expectations so high that for some that may not be enough. I also think there's fundamental Democratic messaging that Republicans are so committed to messaging.

That's all they do. Yes. And, you know, of course, they've got Fox and Ms. Max and O'Anne, which are essentially a state-run TV. for the Republican Party. And it's easy to harmonize your message when you've got this huge megaphone that does nothing but try to allow their farmers to live in an alternate world. So let's talk about a non-alternate world, which is California. Let's not get carried away with that, like. Listen, most of my family lives in California now.

You fifth largest economy, practically its own country, and you guys are feeling the brunt of climate change before the rest of us in certain ways. What is going on in California? Well, you're absolutely right. We've had the hottest summer, I think, ever. We've had the driest temperatures in 100 years. Our water supply is literally drying up. Our state is often on fire.

And we are really feeling the effects of climate change. Now, we're trying to move aggressively as a state to dealing with this. But, you know, we can't wall ourselves off. from the climate impacts of other states and other countries. And so it's a really, really scary situation of California and really around the globe. I'm hopeful that we're going to have a major and, I think, unprecedented investment in the bill back better bill and attacking the problem of climate. And in my little lane in the Intelligence Committee, we put a priority on making sure that the intelligence community is aware of the national security impacts of climate change. You may have seen recently the community put out, I think, a pathbreaking report of the national security dimensions of this problem.

We're trying to create an infrastructure within the intelligence community so that that work continues. But of course, that's just one little piece. The biggest piece is we need to invest in alternate technologies, alternate energy sources, and we in the nation off of fossil fields. So it's fire season in California, which is, you. is the new thing. Talk to me about the fire guard. Fire guard is a program also that has its origins in the intelligence community and defense community, where we have these satellite capabilities of identifying when an incipient blaze begins

so that we can tip and cue and alert firefighters to the presence of a new fire in a very specific location, and they can go put it out before it spreads. Now, this technology wasn't developed. for the purpose of firefighting, but it's extremely useful and powerful. And it has been a struggle, I have to say, to continue to get the Defense Department to do this because they don't view it as part of their job description. But I think we need to take a broader view of national security. You know, people are dying from wildfires. Then this is a security imperative. So we have been continuing this program sort of one year at a time. And I'm looking to give it long-term stability.

Yeah. I mean, this is like national service is my raison d'etre, not to be too pretentious, but like I do, I'm sort of obsessed with the idea of American teenagers being able to do a year of national service. And this idea of a climate corp, I don't know if it's in the final bill or not, but is very cool. Do you see a world where that's an option for teenagers? I think it's a great idea. I love the idea and I love the idea of the service. I think teach for Americans. has been brilliant and a climate core, I think, would similarly be a wonderful thing that young people would be excited about participating in. You know, what I'm hearing is that it's not part of the Build Back Better Bill. I wish it were. But that's the kind of thing that I think could pass as a standalone measure and would just have so much benefit to the planet and to young people. Yeah, no, I think that's right. Thank you so much for joining us. I hope you'll come back. I would love to come back.

Great to talk with you. I love that cameo by your dog in the background. What's crazier than QAnon, more outlandish than Pizza Gate, and scarier than a Mexican getaway with Ted Cruz? The answer is what the American right wing has planned next. Be one of the first to listen to Fever Dreams, new podcasts from The Daily Beast, tracking the conspiracy slingers,

orange acolytes, and straight-up grifters pushing to retake power. Every Wednesday hosts Swin Subisang and Will Summer, check in on the movement of the radical right. Head to the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts or your favorite podcast player to catch the first episode and get subscribed. That's fever dreams, which you can subscribe to wherever you get your podcasts. Molly Junkfast. Jesse Cannon.

What's going on today? Lots of fuckery. I hear a little bowtide twerk. Is that it again? He's got to know that what he's doing is destroying the country, right? He's pretty smart. The wager we have to do at this point is it's stupid to not think that they're trying to stoke a civil war or that stupid national divorce thing. Yeah. Tucker Carlson, he calls it the Patriot Purge.

As he describes the armed insurrection. I mean the fuckery, motherfucking fuckery. Can I tell you what I hate about this? He's making a movie that's going to disparage the greatest movie franchise's name in the history of movies, The Purge. Yeah, that's clearly the biggest problem. there. You've really nailed it. Thank you. Listen, I have my priorities straight. Don't disparage the purge.

So democracy. That's kind of, that kind of sucks, too. We're all going to die. Don't you find it really insane that Fox News, mega Leviathan is going along with this? I don't because I think they'll just go along with anything that took. I mean, Tucker Carlson basically runs the network now, right? I mean, he's the boss.

He's Lachlan Murdoch's boss. And Lachlan, Murdoch doesn't care, and Rupert is 900 years old. And so together, Tucker Carlson just undermines democracy. And maybe he's psyched. Maybe he owns, you know, some company that's going to do very well in an American Civil War. But for those of us who are normal insane, this whole thing is just a complete disaster. Are you saying he's gambling on that we're all going to eat frozen fish sticks after the revolution? He's obviously doing this for the fish sticks.

I mean, that's the only thing that makes sense. No, I mean, the whole thing is a complete and utter total nightmare. I mean, I don't know if you saw this polling yesterday, but a large percentage of the American people believe that, I mean, it's not a large percentage about, it's about a third. A third of the American people don't really want democracy anymore. And, you know, that doesn't end well. You know, that ends with bad stuff. And as you and I talk about all the time, like, it's very scary. and it's being made every day worse by one Tucker Carlson.

Agreed. Jesse, who is your fuck that guy? Well, I'm going to pick up where I left off on the last episode and go in on one alien-looking weirdo, Mark Zuckerberg. On the last episode, we were talking about that so much of the analysis was no, no Facebook is filled with good people. They're trying their hardest. Yeah, no one liked that.

Yeah, well, anybody with half a brain could see that that wasn't what was going on. But for some reason, people love it. carrying water for them. But now what we see is there's this new account of a policy that they were going to implement at Facebook where they were going to do more Spanish voter outreach. And Mark Zuckerberg decided that, no, they shouldn't do that. That might be partisan. So now when we've debated, are they just stupid?

Are they just doing it for growth? We have to say we're more concerned with growth than the country. And they are absolute fucking idiots. This shows that they're not up for the job that they have. that they really, really, really need regulation, and they really, really need to be less powerful. Oh, yeah. The good news is they need to be,

they are expanding into the metaverse, too. Oh, yes. So they can ruin the real world and the fake world. Oh, can't wait. It's be even better than Space Force. Yeah. On that note, we'll wrap this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast.

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