The Daily Beast Podcast - What Trump Really Thinks About Tucker and Tulsi

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

Trump biographer Michael Wolff joins Joanna Coles to pull back the curtain on a White House in disarray. The author reveals how the president’s impromptu, last-minute decision-making around Iran—epitomized by a series of frantic Friday phone calls and a dismissive “fuck Tucker”—turned what insiders claimed was a long-planned operation into a mad scramble. Wolff explains that while official narratives try to dress up the moment as a flawless, strategic maneuver, in reality the president dithered until the very end, leaving everyone guessing and scrambling for their next move. Coles and Wolff dissect the chaos behind the rhetoric—how rival factions from the MAGA base to neocon advisors vied for his attention—and expose a leader who shifts his course with every call, embodying a breathtaking blend of uncertainty and dangerous improvisation. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's interesting that Tucker became the real enemy here and the real point person representing the MAGA objection, the MAGA Fureys. I'm Joanna Cole's chief content officer of The Daily Beast. This is the Daily Beast podcast. What else could we be talking about other than Donald Trump's decision to bomb the hell out of the Iranians' nuclear capabilities? Who else better to talk about it with than Michael Wolfe, who knows, exactly what the spin is coming out of the White House and what's going on behind the spin.

Just to remind you, he's written four books on Donald Trump, and his sources are impactful. Michael, I've just got off an eight-hour flight, and all I wanted to do was rush back, get you on the podcast, and find out what the hell is going on in the White House and what you are hearing. And it must be two or three in the morning for you, so you're really on the job. I'm really wanting to find out what's going on. The White House, all of the White House particulars are out trying to frame a case that this has been underway, that this is a plan, that this strategy has rolled out in a methodical fashion. In this two weeks, it will be two weeks, was Trump's clever ruse. This is not true at all.

This is completely made up. and many people in the White House are chuckling about this. He has been, he dithered right up until the last minute. You know, he went into Thursday. You know, Thursday he was, you know, Tucker, Tucker, and he had seen Tucker's interview with Ted Cruz, where Ted Cruz got massacred. And that's what he said, my God, Cruz got slugher.

laudered. So Donald Trump watched Tucker Carlson's interview with Ted Cruz where Ted Cruz didn't know the population of Iran, didn't know the tribes of Iran. And that was very much a there but for the grace of God moment for him. And then he pulled back and that's when the two weeks were going to think about this. Who knows? Kind of stuff happened. And then he went into Friday and the, you know, the congressional leadership, the Republicans, you know, strongly a neocon group came back at him and were really like, you got to do this, and you're going to look bad if you don't do this. And you have an opportunity to look good, to be a winner. They kept repeating this. They know how to play this guy. You're going to be a winner if you do

this. And then so by Friday afternoon, it was literally in a whole, series of phone calls, it was it was fuck Tucker. And it's interesting that Tucker became the real enemy here and the real point person representing the the MAGA objection, the MAGA fury. So he had to get over that. He had to really focus on Tucker and say, fuck him. And then it went on. And then he said, then he kept the, then the, the, the, the tenor of the phone calls was, was, was, was, was him saying, I think I'm going to look very good if I do this. So this was, you know, in a, in a, in a Instagram post today, I called that, you know, a vanity bombing, which, which, which I think, I think very much it is. But, but, but it, it really was not until the last minute, you know,

kind of late on Friday, apparently, that there was, that there was a, a, a, a, you know, it was a genuine go decision. So the idea that this has been planned and in the month, it has been in the, in the works for months is just completely untrue. There's the spin currently underway. Completely. Completely. I mean, this is a spin of the last number of hours. You know, that's, that's today's spin. Because, you know, I mean, there's, there's, you know, they immediately were, we're hit by the, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's right in front of everybody's eyes, he dithered until the last moment. And, and, you know, not only dithered, flip-flops. So all of these things, we're trying to, we're now in denying. We're now denying. That didn't

happen. That's not reality. Do we actually have a sort of mager civil war going on then? So we've got Tucker and Bannon, and I suspect J.D. Vance as genuine isolationists. Then you have the neocons. Who is Trump actually sort of listening to, just the last voice he spoke to? I think that that's also a takeaway here that he, as usual, it's the last voice. And the last voice was the voices saying, you're going to look good if you do this. You're a winner. But I think the overarching thing is that this is a big deal. I mean, he's done the precise thing, the overriding thing he promised not to do, go to war in the Middle East. So in a sense, this is as radical and extreme in alteration to his worldview as open borders would be. Wow. Wow. And credit where credits do, it does

appear that the operation went off as flawlessly as it could have done. That's the other thing that nobody knows yet. I mean, nobody knows if what was, if, if, if, if how much of this nuclear, how much of this operation was destroyed? Was there, was it a complete, what are his words, obliterated? You know, I mean, he's billing this. This is his mission accomplished moment. How much has been accomplished there? We have no idea.

Plus, we have no idea what actually is left over in one of the fears, and seem to me to be an extremely large fear, is that what is left is the ability to assemble suitcase bombs and other much smaller devices that can be obviously enormously destructive. At first pass, at least looks like it's flawless in terms of no American lives were lost. I mean, the scale of the operation seems pretty impressive. I mean, taking planes from Missouri, flying them, fueling them in midair, refueling them in midair, getting in and out in 20 minutes without anybody really knowing what's going on.

It's just clearly, as you've just said, and as General Kane said, slightly correcting what Pete Hegg said in the press conference, we're recording this on a Sunday evening this morning, that it's just too early to know how bad the damage that they've created is. I mean, one can assume it's fairly intense because the bombs were big, but it's absolutely unclear if we obliterated their nuclear capabilities. And if we have obliterated them, to what extent, I mean, we've obliterated nuclear capabilities,

but we have not obliterated the ability to actually, a nuclear operation. I mean, we've done this before. So what are we talking about here? Are we talking about forever more? Are we talking about 10 years? Are we talking about two years? And also, what is left? You know, always, you know, and let's take the Tucker point of view on this. always these we go into these wars with enormous optimism, enormous certainty. Everybody lines up to say, oh, you know, the American military might, of course we can do this. And then the reality is that we never do it. Right. I mean, the overconfidence is extraordinary in the underestimating of certainly Middle East adversaries.

So this also sounds familiar. We have a head of intelligence in Tulsi Gabbard who said one moment that there was no evidence that Iran was actually capable of creating nuclear bombs. And then Trump having come out and contradicted her, she then backpedaled and said it was possible they would have the ability in a few months. Yeah, she's toast. So the head that will roll here is her. Tulsi Gubbard's head will roll, you think? Yes, yeah, absolutely. Go on.

No, I mean, that's what everybody inside the White House is clucking over her. I mean, she's the one, if there is MAGA blame to go around, it's going to fall on her. And, you know, there's a lot of now backpedaling. He never liked her. You know, she was forced on him. This is also, by the way, not true. Who is she forced on him, by? There's this they, they.

But, but I, you know, actually, I know something, an interesting fact about her that in the first administration, I don't think anybody knows this. She was the runner up to the, to the UN ambassador slot. Oh, she was. She was a Democrat then, actually. She was a Democrat then. Interesting. So you think she's toast. She's got.

I do. Yes. And can we talk about the television of it all? Because I was very struck watching Donald Trump come out to explain what had happened, that this was a moment that normally you expect presidents to be on their own. You think of President Obama talking about bin Laden being assassinated, in the East Room, quiet, gravitas, powerful. and this felt like Donald Trump came out. And I mean, I wrote a piece about it saying he was like Gladys Knight with the Pips behind him.

I mean, these are supporting backup dancers to his presidential role. The big issue right now, you know, second only to what's going to happen in Iran and how are they going to respond is how is how the MAGA, his coalition is going to respond. And I think he is genuinely worried about this, and I think he should be worried. I'm not really, I mean, this is among there are two fundamental things in this coalition, immigration and war. And those two things. I mean, everything else is fungible, can be compromised. I'm not sure those things can be.

Pete Higgseth has gone to great lengths in his press conference today to say this is not war. It's a surgical operation. Last night on President Trump's orders, U.S. Central Command, conducted a precision strike in the middle of the night against three nuclear facilities in Iran. Yes, the message has to be walk back. That's a message to the, to the MAGA people, that this is not, we're not really doing this. pay no attention. And also that it's worked, it's obliterated, we're done here, moving on. There are basically three things that can happen here. There is, I mean, yes, the Iranians could say, okay, yeah, we give up and you're right,

and we'll agree to whatever we have to agree to, to keep our jobs and our lives. Yeah, that's possible, I suppose. The other point is protracted war. And let me note that they continue to attack Israel in a way that Israel has not been attacked possibly ever before. So this is, I mean, Israel is now under attack. So the Iranians who are theoretically leveled or theoretically we control the airspace where everything's going our way are continuing to kill Israeli civilians on now on a daily basis. And then there's the other regime change thing, which Trump seems to be. enthusiastic about at this point where, you know, he's off script there. But, you know, and what does that

mean? What does it always mean? It means years of instability, terrorism, you know, dirty bombs, suit camps, bombs. The idea that this is just one surgical strike is wishful, I suppose, at best. So when you saw Donald Trump come out with the three Pips behind her, the three backup dancers. What did you think in terms of them jostling for position? There was a very interesting moment when J.D. Vance went directly to Trump's right. Marco Rubio comes out. Pete Hegzeth stands behind Rubio trying to get next to Trump. Rubio immediately shimmies up to Trump. There's going to be no gap there. He's trying to indicate, you know, this is a person for whom power is about proximity to Donald Trump clearly. And then Pete Hegseth is sort of pushed to.

to the left of Trump behind Marco Rubio. It felt sort of significant somehow, inadvertently significant. Michael, just hold on. We're just going to take a quick break for some messages. We love our sponsors, but we do want to get back into our conversation. Remember, they don't know what Trump is thinking. So they are, you know, only marginally less out in the cold than we are. I mean, they are literally guessing at all times.

And I think part of that guessing is to be close. Part of that guessing is to position yourself as though you know what he's thinking. But none of them do. None of them know really what's going to happen. It's not as if this is a circle which Trump is constantly consulting. That this is, they're positioned as a kind of a brain trust. there. But this is a brain dead trust. Well, he did warn them. He said, nobody knows what I'm going to do on Friday, right? You did say signal. And that is absolutely, absolutely true. So, I mean, this is

funny thing that everybody is now going out and say that everybody knows that this was, that this was, of course, a, you know, a well-conceived, well-executed plan. No, nothing, because nobody knows. from moment to moment what Donald, what's on Donald Trump's mind. Well, and to be fair, it seems that he doesn't know either. No, no. I mean, he said, no, it turns out the strong man is a ditherer, one of the great ditherers of all time. I mean, on the phone, all Friday, should I, shouldn't I? What do you think I should do?

I don't know what I should do. Fuck Tucker. In another president, that might be thought that he was just, you know, considering other people's opinions? No, well, he doesn't listen to the other people. Remember, this is just everything is an open vein. He gets on the phone, you know exactly what he's thinking. And in this instance, he was thinking, I don't know what to do.

These people are going to kill me. Kept coming back to Ted Cruz. Did you see that interview? Did you see Ted Cruz? Well, of course, the Iranians also had an assassination plan for him last fall. Do you remember, they sent someone. out who was instructed to try and kill him. And then if they weren't able to kill him in the first week that they've been instructed to, they were then told to wait until after the election,

the assumption the Iranians made was that Trump would lose the election. It would then be easier to assassinate him. Do you think that's even in Trump's mind? Perhaps. And in fact, this was this was top of mind during the campaign and then there was I'm going to be caught up short here on the state Montana

North Dakota he was there with one of those one of the Republican Senate candidates who won I believe and and and

he was Trump had issued a thing because this was he knew the Iranians had set out. They were trying to do this. So he said, he said, no Iran talk. Don't anybody talk about Iran. Don't because they're trying to kill me.

Don't, don't. Heads down about Iran. So all of the Trump people were going, oh, God. And he was like, oh, so yes. So certainly at given points, he has been very attentive to this, but attentive to the, his mode was, don't prod that beast because they're going to get me if we do. Is he concerned about that still? I mean, it would be perfectly reasonable to be concerned about that, given what's happened to him.

Yeah, that I don't know. I mean, I think that when you're the president of the United States, you actually do feel pretty protected. Well, I would think that the security must have protected him even more since the weekend. Yeah. So, but, but I think that he is, I mean, all of these things, he is and has been afraid, realistically afraid, in the way that Republicans usually are not, and the neocons, certainly, of what can happen here, that there is, that there is, this is one of the few areas where he seems precisely focused on cause and effect. And, and now we've, we've, we've, we've, We've decided to throw that out.

We're defying that. We're just going to be focused on being a winner. So who would lead the MAGA anti-war faction here? I mean, Tucker for president. Tucker Carlson for president. I mean, I've always thought that he's interested. I know I've spoken to him about this, that he has certainly never said no to this.

And, you know, we'll see. I mean, Tucker has, has, I mean, I mean, Tucker, both Tucker and Steve Bannon detest Donald Trump. Detest. And I can, I have sat with both of them for hours on end listening, listening to their, to their contempt for this man. they have put up with him because he's led this movement which which feeds them too I'm not sure anyone else could lead this movement but would they would will they swallow this fundamental aspect of what they of what they believe in of what they have spoken about of what they have, you know, I think that to some degree dedicated themselves to. This is the thing that means something. Nothing else means anything. This means something.

So this could be a genuine catalyst for a split in the Republican Party? It could be. I mean, we know Marjorie Taylor Green is against it too. Who are the other prominent Republicans that you think might be fired up by this? And of course, Your point that you have consistently made is that everybody hates Donald Trump. So there's a sense in which people are waiting for a crack, which they can begin to lean into and stop being afraid of him, and he becomes afraid of them. So who are the other people that are possible Republicans to split from him?

Well, you know, I mean, I think the Republican leadership is, solidly or quite solidly old-fashioned, you know, an old-fashioned neocon bunch. And Tucker Carlson and Steve Bannon have, you know, are not only waged a campaign against war, but they've waged a campaign against against the traditional Republican leadership. So, and I think the MAGA movement, the MAGA movement, the mega movement such as it is is really separate from that, from that leadership. I mean, those, you know, the complications in the, in the Republican Party is that, is that you have a Republican leadership who is, and has been for many years out of touch

with the Republican Party, and it has been saved only by the grace of Donald Trump. If Donald Trump, and this happened in the first administration too, if he starts to side with, that part of the of the party that traditional republican washington um neoconish rhino if you will um then then i you know i i i think all bets are off so and where is j d vance in all this michael caught in the middle i mean he's the vice president and and he obviously knows his he is he is he is tied to um you know, his future is now tied to Donald Trump, but he is, he certainly comes out of that isolationist wing of the party. He was on Meet the Press with Kristen Welker talking about how this wasn't a war on Iran. It was a war on Iran's nuclear facilities, which felt like a sort of strange avoidance of actually what was going on.

He's known to be an isolationist. You know, most of the, you know, the, you know, the tech loyalty to Donald Trump is, that is also, you know, quite an isolationist group against the war in Ukraine. So I think, I think it is, they are now, the White House is now clearly trying to, trying to reach out, make amends, explain this away, rationalize it. to that part of the part of the party. You know, and, you know, depending upon events, maybe, maybe they can go some way to that. Maybe if the Iranians come to the table, maybe everybody goes okay. But if it goes in the other way, protracted war, regime change, and chaos, Donald Trump is going to pay for that.

You know, I think, I think Vance is, I think there are two. two things that go on at the same time in advance. He is, he is someone, I think, who has thought a great deal about a whole range of positions, including the isolationist position, including no war, including, you know, and I mean, Vance is very much a Tucker person, you know, promoted by Tucker. is in his job, in part because of Tucker. And I think he's squarely in any intellectual sense on that side of the philosophic divide. On the other hand, he's an incredible craven opportunist. So he will do whatever he has to do to get ahead, to stay in Trump's good graces. And the Trump people know this, basically.

You know, I remember at one point in the campaign, when Trump was waffling over abortion, and then Trump decided that he was pro-choice. And Vance, who is very, very much, I mean, he's a Catholic convert very much, a pro-life. He was sent out and he said, well, what am I going to say? They said, we don't care what you say. Just say we're pro-choice. You know, there's Vance. He's on one side, he's wringing his hands. On the other side, he's doing his job. Okay, so Tulsi Gabbard is toast, Tucker Carlson, for

president and we're going to have to wait and see which way the Iranians go and whether or not the MAGA isolationist wing become more volatile within the party. And that's just tomorrow. And we've forgotten all about Elon Musk, we've forgotten all about the National Guard, We've forgotten all about the miserable parade. The military has excelled, it appears. What do we think... Now, the interesting thing, we'll have to see what will happen to make us all forget about Iran.

What do we think about Pete Heggsett's performance? I was struck by how many times he thanked Donald Trump. He congratulated Donald Trump. He said what an honor it was to work alongside. Donald Trump. What do we think American boy doll is doing? To the extent it matters, I think most people recognize that Pete Higseth is a moron. I mean, I don't think that's a difficult leap for anyone. Does it matter, though? Mostly it doesn't, because mostly I think everybody also recognizes that it doesn't matter who is around Donald Trump. I mean, everybody is a, you know, is a, is a, is a, is a, is a, a, is a, a

little dog, you know, pulling at his pants. Tugging at his hem, I hope. You mean tugging at his hem, not pulling his, yeah, not trying to pull his pants down, please. No. No, all right. Well, look, Michael, very good to talk to you. We're talking again on Wednesday.

And as you say, he broke the one thing that everybody thought he would be consistent on, which was no war. And the thing to focus on is that he doesn't know what he is doing. from moment to moment, that this indecision, the indecision is real and the effort to please everybody. So again, you know, the strong man just wants to be loved. All right. Well, on that note, Michael, very good to see you. Let's talk on Wednesday, but we'll see if there's any reaction from the Iranians and very much look forward to talking to you about it. Thank you very much for joining us on a Sunday evening.

I know you've got your young children to put to bed, but I really appreciate it. I got here as fast as I could. Good night, see you on Wednesday. All right, see you on Wednesday. I love talking to Michael Wolfe because he doesn't buy the same spin that everybody else does. He studied Donald Trump for 10 years, and he knows he frequently doesn't know what decision he's going to make

until he hears it come out of his own mouth. And I couldn't help thinking how fascinating it must be. to be J.D. Vance as he came out and stood on Trump's right at the press conference, because J.D. Vance doesn't believe in getting into foreign wars unnecessarily, and yet there he is being forced to support the president, and obviously hoping at some point to succeed him. And all I could think of was be careful what you wish for. Anyway, if you have been listening to us, thank you for joining us.

Subscribe to the Daily Beast to get your frequent update. for what's actually going on and feel free to leave a comment on this podcast. We do read them all and I love the threads of conversations that you have with each other. Please subscribe and we will be talking to Michael again on Wednesday for Thursday's podcast. Until then, have a good week and don't forget, Be Beast and this podcast was produced by Devin Roderino and Anna von Erson and it was edited by Devin too. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh,

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