The Daily Beast Podcast - What Trump's Rant About 'Hate' Tells Us: Swisher

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

Kara Swisher, veteran tech journalist and co-host of the 'Pivot' podcast, joins the Beast's Joanna Coles to unpack Trump’s sordid appearance at Charlie Kirk’s funeral, where campaign politics overshadowed mourning. They explore Erika Kirk’s sudden prominence as a potential Trump running mate, Larry Ellison circling TikTok, Disney’s retreat on Jimmy Kimmel, and the larger question of how Trump has turned hate into his most durable brand. With his empire thriving on division at home and disruption abroad, the conversation asks: can Trump’s politics of hate still carry him forward?  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Cara, did you have any thoughts on Donald Trump saying that he actually didn't like his opponents, hated his opponents and didn't wish them well? Well, you know, it's him. He was describing himself. At least he was truthful. Right. But I think that was the absolute truth about himself. I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. And what a weekend. I don't know where to start. We have the Jimmy Kimmel of it all. We have the TikTok of it all. And then we have the Erica Kirkoviddle, who yesterday emerged as a remarkable figure giving a 30-minute speech at her husband's memorial, which I think spun her onto the landscape of the American viewer in an entirely new way. And I can't help wondering if we've seen a new direction for the Republican Party. Anyway, who better to talk to about all these issues and more? In fact, she's going to throw in some tips about longevity, which has been studied.

recently, but the broadcaster, the podcast, the best-selling author, Kara Swisher. Kara Swisher started her career as a tech journalist, but she's gone on to be so much more. She has an opinion about everything. Her best-selling book, Burn Book, came out last year and was a huge, a huge hit. And she is obviously the co-host of the Pivot podcast with Prof Scott G, Professor Scott Galloway, two good friends of mine. And I'm always curious to hear what Kara has to say. about anything. So, no time to waste. Let's get into it.

All right. So, Kara, let's get into it. I'm very curious about your thoughts on yesterday's memorial for Charlie Kirk in Arizona. And in particular, his widow, Erica Kirk. Well, it was a pretty low bar compared to most of the other speakers. I thought President Trump was doing a campaign rally as if he was at one of his rallies, it was a little bit untoward at someone's funeral of a friend. It seemed like he went from autism to tariffs to Biden. I didn't think it had any, and then disagreed with Charlie Kirk's viewpoint. Right, and said he thought Charlie was angry with him for going off on his hate tangent. Yeah, I guess.

I mean, you can make jokes of people at funerals, but, you know, but it seemed tasteless. Obviously, Stephen Miller was disturbing. I hope he doesn't speak at my funeral because it was really distilled. Well, hopefully you will outlive him because I know you're working on a longevity project, which I want to come to later. But we're relying on you to live until 120. Yeah. Most of them were not very good. I think Vance was okay, because I think they were friends.

I thought he handled it pretty well. Most of them were not very good. And it was a campaign rally to raise money or political points or stuff like that. But I thought she did very well. I thought she handled it with a lot of class. I thought she talked about her husband and the right thing. She didn't make it political. She made it about forgiveness.

And I'd imagine it was extraordinarily difficult. She certainly presented a different face of, you know, what Christianity means to a lot of people, which is love and forgiveness and not hate. So I thought, you know, weirdly enough from a political point of view, she positioned herself the best because she came off. I don't know if that was her goal here. I think it was to honor her husband. Obviously, they have kids together.

But that's a high pressure moment, and I thought she handled it with a lot of grace and dignity. I'm not so sure I would have done a rally in a stadium for my husband if he died. But that's her choice, which is, I can see why. You know, they had big ties to that community. I'm glad they did it in Arizona versus somewhere else. Everyone else acted like it was a fundraiser for merch and all kinds of stuff. Right.

I think there were a lot of hats being sold on the side. Hats, yeah. I've often wondered what comes after Trumpism, because it's very clear that the people around Trump don't have the rears, they don't have the energy that he has. But I suddenly thought watching Erica Kirk, and this may well have been incidental, because she's clearly still in the first stages of grief

after a horrifyingly violent death for her husband. But I thought, oh, we're seeing a turn here in the Republican Party, possibly. And I wondered if she might be, is it implausible to think that she would be a good running mate for J.D. Vance? It was interesting. I don't know if it's a turn. I mean, she's obviously, he had said, Kirk, if I recall, said she was more conservative than him. And he was pretty far down the conservative line. So, you know, I don't know if heavy duty Christianity is for everybody, right? It certainly is appealing to that group. And she certainly could rally that group of people who believes in this, you know, sort of Christian nationalists is what it is,

and who wanted to have, you know, one nation under God indivisible kind of thing. And so I'm not sure she represents a very diverse group of people, you know, that kind of thing. But there's a lot of religious people. There's not, there's increasingly less religious people demographically over time. Right. But they're a very committed group of people. I have a lot of people in my family who are, you know, different kinds of evangelicals from West Virginia and elsewhere my aunt was.

Her kids are, but they have a different Christianity. It's much more kind and open and diverse. My cousins, well, not all of them, but some of them. So it just depends. It depends if she modulates herself, I suppose, in some way to be accepting of other religions and other ways of thinking of things. I don't know much about her politics at all. Well, neither do I, but just seeing her yesterday, she's clearly a brilliant speaker,

to be able to get up and address a stadium of 70,000 people, I thought was incredible, especially 10 days after something like that. Yeah, no, she's clearly got, she clearly was the secret sauce of him, too. Like, she obviously, from what I understand, she was quite involved in the, in the movement, Turning Point, USA. And she also had a podcast. She's quite good. at presentation. Her podcast is more religious, it seems, like talking about the Bible and things

like that. So let's see if she makes the trend. She's clearly got power. I mean, right now, she's got a lot of power. And she's, you don't want to compare her to people, but it depends on, you know, these people who survive very strong figures like Navalny and they're not comparable at all, but they, you know, they can move the movement forward, whatever it happens to be. on their on behalf of their their husbands, her debt, their late husbands. Right. Like Julian Navalny for Navalny after he was poisoned.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a totally different thing. It's a completely different thing. But it's, you know, you've seen that happen many times before. But at the same time, you know, it just depends on what she wants to. She does have two young kids. I know that just from reading about her, the family, you know,

having one parent present is critical, I think, in that. I think that too, my personally, but it'll be an interesting and difficult journey for her, that's for sure. Yeah, I thought it was very interesting. Of all the people she called out, she called out Ushavans, who really has disappeared in this administration and must find herself in a very awkward position, being the daughter of immigrants. And also, having worked for a law company that specialized in helping companies with DEI in favor of DEI. And not finding a husband that appears to stand against everything that you think she represents. I don't think this is why she was a Gates scholar at Cambridge to support Stephen Miller's.

Yeah, I think she's probably, who knows? People change, right? I don't know. But given her past history, there must be a silent scream inside. But I don't know. Who knows? You know, people do change and make shifts. I think she's my take on her.

and I don't know her at all, obviously really intelligent, is it's better to say nothing if you can't. You know, I mean, if she has to go out there, she's got to answer those questions and though she doesn't because then she'd have to, right? And then she'd have to be on their side, presumably. And I suspect she disagrees with some of it. But I don't know.

She could have changed, right? You never know. Yeah, power changes people, the proximity to power. I have a lot of friends who have changed, you know. I have a lot of people I know who have changed really quite dramatically. So I don't know. Did you have any thoughts on Donald Trump saying that he actually didn't like his opponents, hated his opponents, and didn't wash them well? That struck us an odd note at a memorial service.

Well, you know, it's him. He was describing himself. At least he was truthful. Right. I don't know. I feel like it was it was badly time. I think he was trying to make a joke about how Charlie Kirk wasn't like that. You know, you try to find something funny at a funeral.

But I think that was the absolute truth about himself. He really, that's how he feels about people. He really does. The thing is he does move on and then becomes friends with people he hates or he has friends that then he hates and then he's, he has friends that then he hates and then he's, like Rupert Murdo. Yeah, right. Or Elon Musk or whoever it happens to be. And so that's his MO. But I mean, you know, it's it's, it's completely on brand with him.

He, he works for this man just the way hope worked for Obama, right? And so he's really leaning into what works for him, which is cruel to. Great comparison. Hope versus. hate. Well, look, there's so much going on that I want to talk to you about. And I think of you as someone who has, you know, very thought-out opinions on all sorts of things. Where are we on the TikTok deal, which would have got more attention on Friday had it not been for the build-up to Arizona? So can you fill us in on the details and what you think may happen and why it's a

significance? Well, on Pivot, we predicted the entire thing. It's going Larry Ellison. You know, he had already been involved in the first version of this effort by Trump to some how protected Americans from China, but that's not at all what's happening here. It's a big payoff for his friends and people who've supported him. Principle being Larry Ellison, now Oracle's fully able to handle something like this from a technical point of view, from a data point of view. But he's rewarding his friends, whether it's Mark Andreessen, he was dangling it to the Murdox.

You know, it's all sort of a gimmy to bring it in. The question is, are we be, is this really separate? don't know. Like, there's very little detail on what Congress has actually said has to happen, you know, which is a separate thing. But it seems like the Chinese are in there for 20 percent. And what does that mean? Where is the algorithm? What's the product going to be? There's very little detail except that there's going to be, it's, you know, it's being put in the hands of his friends, people who have supported him, whether it's Andreessen or Ellison. We'll see the list. Well, maybe not. We won't see the list. But the question is whether the product,

declines in some way. And if those protections that Congress was so very worried about are actually in place, I would doubt it in terms of what they're doing. But we'll find out. We will find out. They must have, China's probably holding out for a better tariff deal, I suppose, by, but it doesn't seem like they're giving up much here. And I know when it first happened, you know, Mark Cuban told me it's no, it's useless without the algorithm. It's not a product. It's you're buying a brand. And so that's an issue. And then, you know, a bunch of old men explaining TikTok to us. I'm not so sure I want this gang of people in charge. Mark Andreessen is such a hip-hop happening guy. Well, he's got a hip-hop personal, I suppose. I guess. In as much as that is a thing. And who gets to keep the data? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it's you, presumably it's your data. But I don't know. The Chinese already have some of the data. I don't know how they gate it.

I guess they keep it in the United States, but, you know, there's been lots of reports that it moves over there. Like, we're never going to see this algorithm, what it really is. And so that's the issue. What we'll never know now, because Donald Trump just wants to make a deal, what the Chinese did. Like, I'd like to know, like, if we had, they're never going to give us control of the algorithm because they don't want us to know what they did. And so we'll never know and we'll see. And then if they're not using the Chinese algorithm, which you've based your whole life on, on TikTok,

it might not be as good for you, right? I find, you know, Instagram and threads really pushing ahead. Well, that's a different privacy issue. But in general, I think they're really growing quite strongly. And I hate to recommend them, but I would use threads in Instagram over TikTok any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Well, and also the reason to use TikTok,

The reason to use threads and Instagram is that I guess it's better that it's owned by an American company than a Chinese company. Yes, sir. Does it make any difference if China sells, in theory, TikTok to America at this point? Because they've been inside American culture for as long as they have four or five years at this point. I don't know who's running the algorithm. Again, the unknowns are so massive here. And it certainly flies in the face of what Congress was trying. trying to do. And it was passed by both houses of Congress and it was signed by President Biden.

So it's just not doing what it said it was doing, which was protect our citizens from both surveillance, less so, I think, is an issue than propaganda. And the question is who is, who is waiting the propaganda on this stuff? You know, Trump was against it before he was for it, which is because it shifted the algorithm in his favor, probably on purpose. So, So his campaign people went to him and said, hey, we like TikTok. Oh, and by the way, one of your biggest funders likes TikTok as an owner, Jeff Yass. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think it was Charlie Kirk and Barron that went to Donald Trump and said, actually, TikTok's a good thing for you. You shouldn't be trying to ban it. And I think his first instinct to try and ban it was probably the correct one, which is we don't want foreign adversaries meddling around in social media in our country. Right. We're not allowed to go over there and do it. I mean, it's just ridiculous. I mean, the whole thing, like, we used at the time, man, I wrote a piece seven, eight years ago saying I love TikTok, I use it on a burner phone.

And I got all kinds of flack for that. Right, right. It was in New York Times column. And everyone was like, how dare you insult the Chinese? I'm like, I'm sorry, it's Chinese Communist Party who wants to dominate the world. I feel like they shouldn't, you know, we don't get, we don't have asynchronous ability to influence its culture at all. Right. There's no reciprocity.

No. Google's not allowed in China. They left. They left China, to be fair. Because of spying. Because of spying. Because, you know, these are pernicious stealer of IP and pernicious surveillance. And, you know, it's one thing, I don't want to, like, stack rank surveillance. It's one thing for Mark Zuckerberg wanting to sell us more crap or manipulate us in some way. And it's another thing for the Chinese Communist Party to do so.

Right. So I suppose if I have to pick, which I don't like the choice. No, no. I love the idea of stack ranking security and surveillance. It's a brilliant term, actually. They're surveilling us so they can sell a shit and he can do more MMO fighting, I guess. Right. And some of the shit they sell us, I quite like it.

I'm debating about whether or not to buy. A thing that keeps coming up on Instagram, which is a massager for your lymph nodes. Instagram has great ads. Always has. Yeah, and I'm like, how do you know I need one of those? Brilliant. I do need it. Yeah, I think Instagram and ads, that's a really interesting case in terms of quality.

I mean, I think it's a quality product. There's lots of hair all over this stuff, you know, whether it's hate or surveillance or whatever. But it's a, it was always a good product when he bought it. And it was a wonderful product when it, I was there when it started, when it had seven people. And they've made it into a, he's very good at that. And I have to give kudos to them for both that and threads. So people like Twitter better, but I don't. I like threads. And I like, I like, I like blue sky. I like both of them. I'm through, I like competition. So I'm. Yeah. And it's hard to see who benefits more from a divided America than the Chinese. Right. Which is what I, you know, which is my anxiety.

about TikTok. We're such jammies. They're probably laughing their asses off. Oh, I'm sure they are. I'm sure they're bent double. I'm sure they're in the fetal position laughing on the floor, as are the Russians. I don't feel they have a lot of respect for us as a nation. Well, I'd be fascinated and see how the deal gets done. So you've been very forthright about Bob Iger's decision to suspend indefinitely Jimmy Kimmel's show. There's been talk over the weekend that maybe Jimmy Kimmel comes back in some form. Do you think that that's likely? So awkward.

You know, this is already a show, all these shows, not just Jimmy Kimmel's. I think he's very talented and everything else. All these shows, as you know, I talk about the, you know, these are declining audiences. And oddly enough, Hacks had sort of presaged this, this idea of the economic challenges. Let's start with those. Right. And the storyline, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it was almost perfect in that last speech she gave when they tried to get her to fire

the character, Hannah. binder plays. You know, these companies are struggling with late night because the costs. And that's no, like, I know everyone was like, oh, they cut them because of Trump. I'm like, they probably also got them because of cost because they kept the South Park people, which was doing well, right? So if you make, you know, if you make audience, they'll and make money for them, they'll keep you. That's the whole, that's, that's always been my point of view is that if you make money for people, they'll put up with a lot. Right. And people do watch, I mean, the audience has died certainly late night, but they do watch it on YouTube and they watch it for free. Clips, yes, they watch on clips, but that's not monetizable

as much as the old system. And so... Right, exactly. There was a need to cut costs. There was a declining audience. Much of the popularity of it is on clips, which is hard to monetize, right? And so, you know, you have that problem, period. Like, what do you do about these shows and how do you... But the first thing for Colbert you could have done is let's see if we can cut costs and put you on streaming and blankety blank. There was never that. There was never, it's, oh, we have to cut you, like, without any kind of discussion about how to make it a much more economically viable thing. So that gives me pause, like, oh, they did it because Trump, like that. So that was pretty obvious to me. And she wanted, you know, they wanted that deal done, et cetera,

et cetera. I think, and this was pre the Ellison's even, this was Sherry Redstone, who really has turned out to be, well, I'm not surprised. Anyway, well, and I'm not, I mean, I wonder if you've heard this too, but a few people had said to me, well, of course David Ellison wants Stephen Colbert to be fired before the deal, because he doesn't want to be the person to fire Stephen Colbert. Yes, yes, that's correct. He got lucky. He got lucky in that regard. And just the timing was good for him. I don't know what they would have done. They probably, you know, I suspect Bob Iger was looking at the numbers and thinking we've got to do something about late night. This isn't working for us. but to do it in this way, right when Brandon Carr is acting like a ridiculous, you know, cartoon mobster, what a terrible public official he is. It looks so linked so bright line and so, and especially after paying the $16 million over the George Stephanopoulos problem they had. Now, in that case, I was not quite as critical because I thought, I bet there's emails, I bet there's texts.

I think they would not have lost, but it would have been very embarrassing. That's my guess. I don't know, although Sherry Redstone gave in and they didn't do anything. A friend of mine sat on a train coming back from D.C. to New York and said she was sitting opposite someone who was clearly a lawyer who hauled his enormous briefcase onto the table, opened it up and took out six files that literally said George Schnefenopoulos. Oh, did it? That's terrible. I don't know. It just would have been a mess. It would have been a mess. It would have been a mess.

I can see that one I was like, oh, I bet there was something. Like, there's something that would have just kept it in the news. Trump would have taken advantage of it. What a mess. And, you know, you try to avoid that stuff. I wasn't quite as, like, irritated by that one. This one's ridiculous. It looks like they were caving to both Sinclair and Nexstar, which you can do that. that, and they can do whatever they want, by the way. Like, everyone's like, oh, they're so terrible. I'm like, they are so terrible, but they can do what they want. If they want to, by the way, they have audiences of, like, rapidly aging populations, watching local and broadcast news.

So good luck. See what you can put in there. And, you know, buy some golden girls and go for it. I don't know what to say. I don't know what to program in those places. And they've tried to create news stations that have had no, no traction. Small, small, fine. Right.

Some of them are good. some of them are bad, small. And so, and not certainly not, wow, what an incredible business. And so you have to decide what to do. But in this case, Iger, the bright line is so clear what happened here. So he looks like a quizzling. He really does. He really does, which is a great disappointing to me. I happen to like Bob Iver quite a bit. I have a very good relationship. And I was sort of shocked that he did this because the only thing I can think of, he was very disturbed by the Elon attack on him at that New York Times thing.

I think it really shook him. Was this when Elon Musk said go fuck yourself over the ads? Yeah. Right, this was at the deal book conference. Yeah, I think he was shocked and surprised by it and was I think it made him nervous. Although I don't care. He gets paid the big bucks, so suck it up, sister,

you know, kind of thing. And the other part is, I think when those Nazis appeared in front of Disney World, remember they were marching around like the neo-Nazis. I think that was really worrying. I think they were worried about attacks at Disney, etc.

I think he's got bigger, that's my guess. This is the only thing I can think of is the other businesses are very vulnerable to all manner of violence. And so that's sort of the nightmare scenario for Disney, I suppose. So I'm not sure what

went through his hood. I mean, I talked to a lot of other moguls, fellow moguls who were friends of him, and every note is despicable. What a despicable move. what a weak-willed person. This is typical. A lot of them are, this is what he's like. And I'm like, I don't know.

Maybe I don't know. But to me, he's really made a mess of it and probably regrets coming back to, you know, save Disney from Bob Cheapek, who's probably laughing, also laughing his ass off somewhere. Kara, hold on one second. We're just going to take some messages. Thank you to our sponsors. We're back with Kara Swisher talking about everything. It's a fascinating story, Bob Eager, isn't it?

because he resides absolutely at peak Disney at the top of his career. Yeah. He leaves. He appoints Bob Chapech. Bob Chapech inherits COVID, which is terrible for the parks. And then Bob Iger basically comes back having agitated against Bob Chaepec. And it was all chronicled in a somewhat embarrassing piece for everybody concerned, I think, in the New York Times. So they hung their laundry out there.

And now he must be somewhat ruining the day, especially because his wife. is head of the Annenberg School of Journalism at USC. Yes, that's true. She's, I've gone to that, her classes there. You know, she's a, that must, I mean, it's not her fault. Like, I'm sorry. I just, I don't know what to say because, but she must be beside herself. What's you going to tell the students?

There's no, there's not there. What can you tell us? You can say things to the PR students, but which who also are there, but you could also, like, what do you say to the journalism? There's nothing to say except silence and which is the worst thing in the world. And, you know, I suspect, I'm not sure. I guess he wants to go on a high note and bring Disney stock up, right? Yeah, which has consistently underperformed the S&P.

Right. So I suspect he wants to not have it go on a low note, go out in a low note. And, you know, he's still been so slow in picking his successor. And what he does, he gets sucked into the, I think he was trying to keep his head down with Trump. That's what I suspect because you didn't hear him. Like, after the vaccine thing in Florida, I actually text him on like, are you saying nothing about this vaccine, like these crazy. anti-vax people run in the state. I said, I'm not bringing my children there. Like, you know what I mean? Like, he didn't respond, which he always responds, which was interesting to me. I think he just is

weary of having to dive into this stuff, right? I suspect. That said, again, you're making the big buck, sir, so. Right. But very difficult to manage it and keep the creative community on on side. Well, they're mad. They're here. They're definitely. Well, and John Oliver last night on last week tonight saying boycott Hulu, boycott Disney. That felt like a moment. There's a lot of them. You know, they're trying to make the comparisons,

which is interesting to, what's that woman who was on one of the Star Wars things, very conservative. Oh, yes, I know who you mean. I can't remember the, yeah, I can't remember her name, but I know exactly what you mean.

Right, which that's a better comparison, I guess, but Kimmel didn't say anything wrong. This is the problem. And, you know, Roseanne Barr, like Roseanne Barr said, truly heinous things about Valerie Jerr. I mean, like, astonishingly horrible things. This is not even a close comparison. So that's not even, doesn't even work. I suppose, you know, they have like,

compared to Roseanne, I was like, are you kidding? Right. And Rosam was their number one show and they canceled it. He possibly made, it kind of had a fumbled language. I knew what he, I heard what he was saying, which was their trying that he was making, he was describing the situation, the right wing was trying everything they could do to make. this person trans, right? Trans bullets, trans, he's trans, no, there's a partner. And again, none of it matters because the partner didn't shoot. If the partner is trans, and I don't even know this, they didn't shoot. What does it have to do with, you know, if he had a, like Scott said, is he had a girlfriend at ASU, like if he had a girlfriend at ASU, wherever in Utah, that,

that was a MAGA person. That wouldn't have mattered either, right? The grandmother said the family was maggot. It doesn't matter. This is a single person who did this. And if you can't make a larger conspiracy theory work, which they're not going to be able to, I don't really care like anything else. We had said that on Pivot right away. We're like, this is just a nihilistic young man. Trying to pin one side of the other on him is not going to work here because we get this guy. And also almost by definition, anybody that takes a rifle and shoot somebody else like that has some sort of mental issues, right?

To me, they're already mentally ill if they're out there, murdering people. That's right. But it's just this idea of teamwork. And he was making an observation. That's my thing. And he could have said the saying about the left, trying their hardest to make this guy MAGA or whatever. And in some cases, it seems like he didn't vote.

He never voted. He didn't have a political affiliation. It doesn't matter that his family was MAGA. It doesn't matter if his roommate was trans. It doesn't matter. None of it matters. And I think the linking between, I got to make tough calls on Bob Beiger is ridiculous.

It's a ridiculous comparison. It's only because of the, the MAGA making something of it, the groups that are professional irritants, but trying to make a big deal, the pressure was there, and they've been under that pressure. Remember the gay boy, the Christians weren't going to go to Disney because of the gay thing? That didn't work out. Gays turned out to be excellent goers of Disney. So it didn't matter, absolutely.

Well, they love princesses. They love princesses. Gay men love princesses. Yeah, exactly. And so that didn't work. So you have to really battle on inaccurate boy. Kyle. Or it's put up with it.

That's the way the world is right now. Yeah. So what do you think about Jay Leno's point that why have all the comedian, the late night comedians, lend in to the Democrats, because you automatically lose half of your audience. I'm not unsympathetic to that because Jimmy Kimmel was. I agreed with that. Yeah, Jimmy Kimmel was hired as a comedian and has become much more political

and sort of taken on the mantle of the trend. at Comedy Central, which, you know, it was kicked off by John Stewart and then very effectively taken up by Stephen Colbert. But I can understand if you're a Republican, moderate, or even Maga, that every night watching this would be annoying. Yes, but you go over to Greg Gutfeld. To me, one of the things I talked about was the problem with late night was they're all the same. It's like three news stations, like ABC, NBC, and CBS, like they're all the same. And in this market, you can't have that many. That's my issue. It's not what they're saying. You can have a point of view.

and then try to serve that audience the way Fox does, or Greg Gutfeld, who I don't find particularly funny. But everyone's like, he's so popular. I'm like, he's the only one that's doing it. That's why. It's like it reminds me, you know, when Walt and I had the Code Conference, we were the only ones doing it. And then everyone copied us, and then it got harder, the business got harder.

And so it seems like there were too many people doing the same thing, right? If I were Bob Eager, I would have said, you know what, we got a cost problem, we got a perception, we got to do something. let's just put him on streaming. They can't touch us over on streaming. Let Brandon Carr do what he likes on this other stuff. Let him actually, like, you know, I hate to be Mel Robbins, but let them, let them cut our, let's see if they can do it. I would have hired the best five law firms and fought that asshole right into the ground, and he would have lost.

He would have lost. And it would have been, you know, even the right has problems with this call by Brendan Clark. Right. I mean, even Ted Cruz, I mean, Bernie Sanders coming out and saying for the first time every, agrees with Ted Cruz because Ted Cruz is saying this is a rod for our own backs. The Democrats will use it. Well, they're mostly, they're going to do it to us. That's their whole thing because, you know, he's not worried about Jimmy Kimmel getting hurt. He's worried about they're going to do it to us someday. Yeah, exactly. Fine. Whatever it gets you to get you there, it's fine by me.

So do you think that a possible solution to this? Because Bob Eiger must be sort of head in hands trying to figure out how he got here. And they obviously underestimated the fallout from it, too, because he's clearly sensitive about his reputation. Is a solution that they go on streaming? Could they just put Jimmy Kimmel on Hulu every night? I would have done that period. I would have been like, let's put him on streaming. Let's cut some costs. Like, I think he had 200 people. That's an incredible amount of people. Sorry, that's too many in this. And then figured out like something really interesting. Like, could you have hired Colbert? I mean, if I were Ted Sarandos and they never miss over there. I mean, now K-pop demon, if I have to listen to one more

K-pop Demon Hunter's song right now with my kids, like it's crazy. It goes from age three to 18, like it's nuts. You know, if I were them, I'd be like, hmm, what can I do with this guy? Like, what interesting thing. Now, again, these guys are older. Like, it doesn't necessarily K-pop Demon Hunters is hitting a young demo, but it's hitting me, too, by the way. I think it's wonderful. What can you do? If I were Ted Serretterian, to be like, what can I do with this? What opportunity? Yeah, what moment is this? Well, and he was, I always think he was very strong over the Dave Chappelle incident, too. Then he was like, Dave Chappelle is a comedian. He should be allowed to do his show and do his thing.

Yeah, we had, the only issue I had Dave Chappelle is like, do we need an hour and a half of bashing trans people? That's not very funny. Like, if you're going to, like, oh, you're mad because he does lesbian jokes. I'm like, I love a lesbian joke. Trust me, I'm the least offended person. I work with Scott Galloway. I've got to be. Right. I was going to say he gives you a lot of lesbian. jokes. I know, but it's like, I just, my issue was, this is a group of people that is under siege. Do you need an hour and a half of bashing them?

It wasn't, it wasn't an hour and a half. It went on. It was like two minutes, I think. Is there anything else we can make fun of? Like, I don't know. I felt like Bort, actually was my biggest issue. But I agree with you. I think he was right in that move. There's an opportunity here for someone. I mean, especially with Kimmel, because I think

he's quite an interesting character. Like, I think he's a really interesting and talented and possibly innovative person. I don't know. He could do very well in podcasting. He could do very well. There's all kinds of moves. It might be like the biggest gift to him because I would think running, I mean, I think that's what hacks really, the idea of running a late night show is so heavy now. It's not where it was. It's not where people go. You know, what could you do that you could lighten up? You know how much happier I am that I'm not at a big institution. Right, right. Well, the oppressive hand of a

corporation, especially at the moment when people are concerned about Donald Trump and the sort of punitive nature of him. Yeah, if I were him, I would probably go to YouTube. I think YouTube seems like the perfect place for him. Yeah, or something like, look at Louis C.K. I am and I don't really want to see his penis. You don't want to see Louis C.K.'s. Someone told me he was back and I was like, oh, good. Is he masturbating still? He's not back. He's done very well with his YouTube stuff. He really pioneered that. And so did of all people, Glenn Beck. There's a lot of people that did that. And

you have to like sort of give it to all these people who are doing these things because they, if you're good at it, like Don Lemon recently has really, I've started noticing he's going on the street with that thing and I'm like, huh, this works. This works for me. I don't know how well it works with an audience

yet, but I kind of like it. It's kind of interesting. And so it frees people to be creative and we'll see if Jimmy Kimmel can do that. Yeah. And it's also about the changing nature of journalism, isn't it? And Don Lemon, I think, gets more viewers now than he did when he was on CNN. And he looks like he's having a ball. Like, whoever it happens to me. I did a whole show on this because I'm so sick of this media doom and gloom stuff where I had Oliver Darcy, Dave takes pictures who used to work for the Washington Post, and Katie Drummond, who is

at a, you know, a Condé Nass publication, but she's really invigorating, wired. And I do think there's ways to invigorate media. And I wanted different things to show, like, look, she's at a big thing, but what she did is she leaned into Doge and covered the shit out of it and beat everybody, got all these subscribers, and now she's doing these other things. And so I'm really interested in what people are doing that works really well. I don't like shoddy stuff, and I still don't like the shoddy stuff. Well, and I think what works is having a point of view, right?

Well, I'd rather have to be accurate. I think I have certain standards that I think. No, I don't think it's just a point of view. I think it's a point of view that gives people good information. Like, even if it has a, like, truthful, not neutral was my, when Christian Amunpur said that, I really thought that's exactly. You don't have to be neutral when you come to. Right.

But you have to make your case for your thing in a, not in a, not in a manipulative way, right? Which is what Trump does all the time, like speaking of the last night's thing. Someone was such a performance, like, you know, Elon putting a picture of Frichon. us together. Why do you have to post that? If it's for Charlie, keep your mouth shut. You saw he posted a picture of him and Trump and said for Charlie. It's not for Charlie.

It's for Elon. Like, it's never, that to me, if you're doing things genuinely, you tend to attract a really good audience if you genuinely are expressing yourself. Right. Which is the strength of Charlie Kirk, whether you like him or not. Yeah. What did you make of Donald Trump and Elon Musk's shaking hands? It's just ridiculous.

Just come on. Like, I was so. So look, whatever, whatever it takes for Elon to continue to soil himself. That's what he's going to do. Kara, we're going to take a break and get some advertising. And thank you to our advertisers. We love you. And we're back with Kara Swisher.

So one of the things you're working on at the moment, besides the on podcast and the pivot podcast and everything else you do, is you're working on a series on longevity. And I noticed before we sat down, you were drinking kefir. I was. What are the things we should do, assuming we want to live and watch what happens to the rest of the Republican Party, what should we be doing to stay alive, longer, healthier? Well, let me just preface by saying, I had sat in so many dinner parties with tech people who were lecturing me on all manner of bullshit. And I was always like, and I'd look into it and I'd be like, huh, that's not true. At the same time, there's all these astonishing things happening, AI and cancer, gene folding, or all these amazing developments happening about learning about the human body and longevity. that I wanted to sort the chaff, the wheat from the chaff.

Like, this was really irritating to me to have to listen to these narcissistic fucks. Explain to me how they're like soil, whatever it happens to be, years and years of terrible dinner parties. And so, you know, I'm always sort of interested in what they're doing because some of it has a lot of efficacy. Some of it is just nonsense. And so I just decided my next book would be about this largely because I wanted to be hopeful because there's all this amazing stuff, whether it's, you know, even some space

travel, some space stuff, not all of it. some of it, you know, food, all kinds of things. So I thought it would be really an interesting thing. So that was my next book. And I'm working on a documentary about it, a docu-series about it for CNN. And I'm not supposed to be talking about, but I don't care. But it's really interesting. It's really interesting. So some of it, so what we're doing is we're trying the kooky stuff, like the red light stuff or the hyperbaric chambers. I know you want to get in one. I'm going into one this afternoon for my first time. You don't need more air. I told I'm so sorry if you're throwing.

I'm gasping for oxygen. You do not need more oxygen. I keep telling her this. If you want to hand over the money, it's vaguely dangerous. But it's supposed to help your repair cells. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. It helps you if you are, you know, if you get the bends, that's for sure.

If you have a wound, yes. You don't need the hypothesis. I have the psychological bends every day just thinking about what's going on in D.C. It makes you feel better and you don't throw an embolism I'm happy for. you, whatever. So one of the things, a lot of it's nonsense. Like Scott and I did this sound bath, which I actually liked. Some of it's just like, it was very pleasant to be in a sound bath with Scott Galloway kind of thing. Other stuff. That sounds very weird to be in a sound bath with Scott Galloway. Wait, you see the video of it. Wait do you see the video of it. Is he, please tell me he's

wearing at least a speedo. He is wearing at least a speedo. Don't worry. It was really funny. It's a really, because they look like these weird wounds and stuff. So, so we did all the crazy stuff, but at the same time, I'm interviewing people like Jennifer Dowdna, who did CRISPR and some of the stuff. And there's all these amazing things going on at these university research, which is why it's grotesque that they're cutting funding to them, around cancer, around using AI and solving pancreatic cancer, liver cancer, sickle cell anemia, like, and also what helps with longevity. So I'll get to that. So a lot of it, which is incredible, and that's what I've been searching for is what works. It's really quite dull. There's no, you know,

A couple things, the vaccines are really helpful. Thank you, Robert Buckin-Kennedy, Jr., you asshole. Vaccines have been MRNA vaccines, not just around COVID, but around cancer. There's some really interesting movement going on. That's an HPV vaccine, right? Which is being incredibly effective. Insulting, incredibly effective, has cut death down rather dramatically. The second thing is these GLP-1s and stuff like that.

a lot of that stuff, and there's about to become a pill for it, you know, so you take a pill. Amazing stuff happening there. And we did a lot of, we talked to David Kessler and stuff like that and all these regular people that are taking it. Really interesting stuff around, not just weight, but addiction. It's a question whether it can quite a lot of addictions, drinking, gambling, things like that. That's a critically important new area. Another one is sleep is being studied, obviously, and the quality of sleep and everything else. Another one is less so much exercise as the movement.

And the most important things, movement and getting, you know, moving around and stuff. But what the area, of course, I'm most interested in is, and it's turned out to be from a study point of view, the most important thing, which is friendships. And meeting people you don't know and being in a social situation. And the isolation that's caused by online is really debilitating to our longevity. like in terms of, and it leads to terrible things like this shooter who was extremely online. It leads to lots and lots of problems, which we don't know yet. And so we're looking at that a lot because one of the things that literally in the Harvard Happiness Study, the number one thing is being with friends and family and also trying new things,

trying a different thing, meeting people, even just talking to people on the street in more than a hello way. Like, hi, how you doing? What's going on? It increases your life. It's crazy. Like, all these studies show this over and over and over again. When everyone's looking for this magic elixir, which is a great word, actually, the basic stuff, which is being around other human beings is the biggest indicator of longevity. Yeah, I think Dan Leviton, in his book, Successful Aging, talks about the single most important thing as an older person you can do is talk to a younger person that you don't know. I did that this weekend. Oh, you did? Well, you've got kids around you too. I went out with an 83-year-old is sculling, a bunch of older people. And they were talking about that idea of putting together.

There's a great idea about putting together younger people who need housing with older people who need companionship and creating really good for both groups, right? Incredibly good, not just from a financial point of view, but from a, like, there is something about other human beings that makes you live longer. Like, it actually does. It changed. I did, I did a, I played a game night with young people with a neurosurgeon, an neuroscientist, yeah, about brain plasticity around all kinds of stuff. Now, there'll be medical interventions, but a lot of it has to do with, with people. Like, I know it's crazy to get to this conclusion, but every study, you know, a lot of stuff is based on, like, this whole idea about blue zones, it's just nonsense. It's just nonsense. It's just nonsense. Like, and that's the problem is there's no, like, this idea of an elixir has been with us in the beginning of time, right?

Whether it's the fat pawns to Leon or whatever. But there isn't, the answer is, is people, which is kind of funny. The other answer is be rich. Don't be poor. Or be with rich people. Be with rich, which you are good at. Don't be poor. Okay, don't be poor.

Drink keffer and have lots of company. Well, one of the things is this whole protein, this is like, 10 grams of protein. But there's also too much protein. Now, a lot of bros are some of the bro guys who help them, Peter. They all are like 109 pounds of protein a day. This is not good. Okay. And can you answer? Should we be drinking protein shakes? Yes or no. That always strikes me as A, they're disgusting and B, it feels wrong. But are they actually good for us? No. Anything with a lot of stuff in it, like you have to look at it. If it's just, you know, some protein, whatever, I use plant protein because I don't like way. I don't like the taste of

it. But I feel like every young man I meet is hauling around an enormous plastic tub of way protein or pea protein. And I'm like, just eat a bag of peas. No, it's ridiculous. It's fine. It's just they want to, if a little oxygen is good, a lot of oxygen is better. If a little water is good, a lot of, it's not. Let me just say, and a lot of protein is that's one thing that's not, this whole like obsession. You do need a lot of protein, but not the kind. It's like yogurt in the morning, Greek yogurt, great with some fruit, you know, a lot of fiber. You should, it's kind of, it's the Mediterranean diet essentially. Right.

It's sort of common sense and moderation in all things, right? And processed foods, this is the only area I agree with Robert Kennedy. Process foods are killing us, like really, truly, you know, and that, that'll be, that's a very difficult thing to push back on, obviously. But the diabetic industrial complex is really quite strong. And so a lot of these ozempic things, just whatever it happens is really interesting, especially people who are poor or are in food deserts, who don't have the ability to get to kind of an interesting, it'll be interesting to see if the government takes a hand here as long as it's tested and used. But that to me is everyone I talk to doctors are like, these gLP ones are really interesting and we should really focus. I mean, I know it's fun to make fun of rich people on them, but actually, They seem like miracle drugs.

And as you say, the idea that they're rewiring the brain to not want to do addictive things feels very powerful. Well, because you were brought on addicted to it by the diabetic industrial or the processed food complex. And so those are all engineered so that you would do it. But you don't eat a lot. Like don't suddenly go crazy. I do kefir because I don't like yogurt. So I happen to like kefir. It's also fermented.

Also good for you, that kind of stuff. And I eat kiwi. Kiwi. Kiwi. Kiwi's really good. I bought some Kiwis the other day because you told me I should be eating Kiwis and I have to say they're still sitting in the fridge. Let me just say.

Don't get the green ones. Get the golden keys. I didn't even know there were golden Kiwis. You can get them in China Town. You live in New York. Golden Kiwis. All right. You'll like them.

You'll like them. You don't need to buy a lot. Just get a few. They're full of all kinds of good things. All fruit and vegetables are. You should be eating whole fruits and vegetables. I can't think of a subject that I don't want to discuss with Kara Swisher. But there you have it, TikTok, you have Erica Kirk, you have what's happening with Bob Eiger and Jimmy Kimmel,

and you've got tips for how to live a longer, healthier life, which is Kiwis, the golden kind, not the green furry kind, kherfermented yogurt drink, and company, lots of company, young company, old company, company. Perhaps we will have government-sponsored dinner parties. That would be my favourite thing, where the government just supplied me with a chef to come around and then I will throw people together around my table, which is my favourite thing to do. So I'm hoping I live a long life. Anyway, if you have been, thank you for joining us.

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