The Daily Beast Podcast - Who’s on Top as Trump’s Veepstakes Reaches Its Zenith?

Episode Date: July 2, 2024

The New Abnormal’s Andy Levy and Danielle Moodie place their bets for Donald Trump’s vice presidential pick. Then Antonieta Cadiz, the deputy executive director of Climate power En Acción, joins the program to discuss how climate change is disproportionately affecting Latino communities. Plus! A conversation with New York Times bestselling author and Dartmouth professor Jeff Sharlet about his new book “The Undertow: Scenes From a Slow Civil War.” Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Kedin, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. What a great show we have for you today.

We're going to be joined by Deputy Executive Director of Climate Power and Action, Antel Curries, and she is here to talk about her organization's mission and how climate change is disproportionately affecting the Latino community. Then New York Times bestselling author and writing teacher at Dartmouth College, Jeff Charlotte, joins us to tell us about his most recent novel, The Undertoe. scenes from a slow civil war. But first, let's have some fun. All right, since we're on vacation, Seamus and I wrote up some questions. I'm sure it'll be very hard to guess who wrote which one.

And we want to get to know you guys a little bit better by having you answer them. So the first one, though, very pressing question. Trump's VP pick should drop any moment now. It's apparently between J.D. Vance, Governor Doug Bergham and Lil Marco. Any last-minute wagers before we have the big, reveal. You mean Tim Scott's been out here tap dancing for no reason at all? I find that hard to

believe. He even got this fake girlfriend pregnant for this. Yeah, I'm like he's having, he's having an illegitimate child for this. She got pregnant. That's all we know. Andy, are you casting aspersions on his asparagus? I'm just saying that's all. We have no evidence one way or the other. I'm just, I'm just asking questions, Jesse. Yes, yes, yes. You know, I need to do my own on research on this. All right. So any wager between these three? I mean, what is it? White, white and white Latino. So my wager is going to go with, I'm going to go with the good set of hair because that's all that man has to offer. It's probably plugs too, but I'll go with Bergam. I guess I'll go with Vance. I mean, God, Bergam. I'll go with Vance out of those three. I still

somehow think it'll be Tim Scott, but... If I have to choose for these three, I actually go Bergam because Vance and Marco Trump knows will shank him in the end. I don't think he fears Little Marco as much, but he definitely should fear Vance because that motherfucker, he will make Machiavelli redefined.

No, it's a good point. Why will they wait till the end? They could shank him at inauguration. It would make a House of Cards, Frank, Underwood plot look obsolete. Yeah, and I guess Bergam would help him with like CEOs and stuff like that.

Yeah. So. I still think it's going to be Tim Scott, but that's me. Yeah. So far. Much later. Best TV you've watched so far this year. Oh, wow.

I'll go with Gerard Carmichael reality show. I keep thinking about over and over again how I think it really revolutionized vulnerability and awkward discussions on TV and entertaining and I cried a lot watching it. I'm going to go with Netflix's three-body problem. That was really good. That was on my list too.

Yeah, which was, I think, so fucking good. Sci-fi, it gives you drama. It gives you questions about what kind of reality we're actually living inside of, brings in AI. Like, it's just, there's so much going on, and it's based on a book, and I watched it in one night. And I barely do that. Like, I could not go to sleep. Like, I needed to finish the, I hope it comes back.

Yeah, same. It's a three book series, I think. Three Body Problem. Highly recommend. I think they said it's coming back, but only for one more season. No. Yeah. But I think I remember hearing that.

I love Three Body Problem, too. I didn't know you'd watch it yet. Yeah. We should talk. I think I'll go with Ripley, which is also on Netflix, which is basically a redo of the talented Mr. Ripley, the Patricia Highsmith's book with Andrew Scott as Ripley. And he is amazing in it. And it's shot in like gorgeous black and white and all takes to, you know, takes place almost

totally in Italy. And it's just beautiful to look at. I really, really enjoyed the hell out of Ripley. How about movie? Again, it's going to shock people. I become essentially like a 12-year-old who likes action shoot-em-up movies. That is my fun time in my head. So I saw the latest installment of Bad Boys.

Loved it. Oh, I'm excited to see that. It was great. It was fun. It was just fun. Lots of guns and helicopters and fuckery. Like, it was great. Challengers was fantastic.

Civil War was fantastic. The first omen was a lot better. than it had any right to be, and I actually really thought it was good. And then I'll just throw in, I guess, Love Lies Bleeding was, I thought, fantastic. Oh, and I saw the TV club. Agreed on a lot of that list. I'm going to throw in with yours and the Bottoms was another movie I absolutely loved. Was that this year?

I at least watched it recently, so I think it came out of video this year. I thought that was last year. It's a great movie. Oh, Hit Man also was really, really good. That was a great movie. Yeah. How about Book? Are we going to like pick one of the favorites of all of the authors that we

You guys have authors on this show? I'll go. Amanda Montells the age of magical overthinking notes on modern irrationality, I think is the best book I've read since Naomi Klein's doppelgager. It is a great, great musing on how people are just, instead of looking at reality, making up shit that they suppose and she really explores the subject brilliantly. The chapter on fandoms and what Taylor Swift's fans and Charlie XX's fans do to them is

unbelievable. Love that. This actually is an author that we had on this show, but I am absolutely obsessed with her, which is Nettie Ocalfour. I read book one and book two of Shadow Speaker and Like Thunder. She is an African future. novelist and the books transport you to Niger, West Africa in 2074. Her characters are always, you know, young teenagers that are like on their hero or heroine's journey. It mixes African

traditional religion with sci-fi. Her writing is beyond, beyond. And this was a two-book series that I read at the beginning of the year. I'm going to go. with, I think the best book I've read this year, but I think it came out either last year, the year before, was Babel by RF. Quang. RFK Jr.? Yeah. But the best book that I've read, a fiction book, I think that actually came out this year is Paul Tremblay is just an unbelievable writer. And he writes mostly horror novels, but they're, I don't know how to describe them. I hate saying they're very literate because that seems like an odd thing to say. but they are kind of very literate. And he's got a new book that just came out called horror movie

that is one of the most unsettling books I've ever read. And I'm not the kind of person who has trouble reading horror books late at night. This one, I had to stop and switch to something else at a couple points because it was just, it wasn't necessarily scary, but it was so unsettling that I literally had to put it down because I was not going to go to sleep if I kept reading it. So I'll go with that. Okay, so how about an album you've really loved this year?

Oh, that is very easy. Cowboy Carter. Like, this is not rocket science. Did other people put out music? Well, technically, the only record on Metacrick higher than Cowboy Carter is Charlie X, X, X, Bratt, which is my one. Oh, God, I don't know. I've really been enjoying a new album by a group called Bin Stellar.

The album is Scream from New York. I've been liking that a lot. I like the New Decembrist album. I don't know that I love it. I really do like, which Jesse got me into the soundtrack to Challengers. So good. Oh, and the soundtrack I saw the TV glow is fantastic. Yep.

Such a good album. I don't know. There's so many more. I wish we got these questions in advance because I would actually scroll through and pick stuff. No, we like to have some spontaneity, Andy. I know. but I'm not, yeah, I don't do spontaneity. I lead a very regimented life, Daniel.

How about a podcast, Your 11? When I first started doing the show, I had like basically never listened to a podcast. It just wasn't something I did. But I want to say, same. Yeah, no, but I have actually, not because of the show, I don't think, but I just, I have started actually listening to podcasts. It turns out, some of them are good. Yeah. It's so nice to walk and to listen to them.

Agreed. I listen to Channey Nicholas because I really like astrology. So I listen to her podcast. I listen to also Brené Brown's podcast because I like inspiration and leadership stuff. So I like those. But oddly enough, I do not listen to podcasts every day. Yeah. And I really don't listen to political podcasts.

I just feel like I need a break from politics when I'm listening. to podcasts. So I tend to listen to a lot of comedy podcasts, movie podcasts. I've just started listening to Remap Radio, which is sort of a video game thing, but it's super intelligent and they have really interesting discussions. Oh yeah, ESPN's fantasy focus football. Nice. See, I do listen to Matt out, Chris Hayes, and Lawrence O'Donnell nearly every day to prepare for these shows, but on a very fast speed. But switched on pop, eternally my favorite podcast, and how long gone? Agreed. All right, you're stranded on a desert island.

Which conservative Supreme Court justice? Do you choose that you have to sit with for an entire year? Oh, wait, did you say conservative? Yep, I sure did. Oh. You'll be shocked to hear which producer thought of this one. Because you're on a deserted island, no cameras, right? Yes, yes, yes.

Well done there. I'm just saying, like, no laws. Right? Shit. Bring on Thomas. I know people can't see me. So air quotes, I'll sit with him on a desert island. Yeah, yeah.

Let's do that. I would go with, well, let's see. I think it's common knowledge for our listeners. Maybe not that I was good friends with Neil Gorsuch in college. So I could pick him. I think I would pick Barrett. I think she actually has a chance. And I think I've said this before.

I don't think I agree with her. her on many things politically, but I think she has shown at least sometimes a reasonableness that none of the conservative dudes have. And, you know, we're starting to see some decisions where she is concurring with Jackson or with Sotomayor or Kagan. And believe me, I'm not saying she's anything but a hardcore conservative. I think she is. But I somehow think she more than the rest of them on that side, she is less comfortable with sort of bending principle to fit her politics. I think she would be more interesting to hang out with for a year. Folks, I am very excited to welcome to the new abnormal, the deputy executive director of climate power and action, Anto Kades, who will talk

with us today about a topic that I think is incredibly important, which is climate. change, which we are all experiencing. If you were living anywhere in this country right now, you have experienced extreme heat waves, extreme weather conditions at one time or another, but how climate is disproportionately impacting Latinos. So, Anto, talk to us about the mission behind climate power and action. Well, Daniel, first of all, thank you so much for inviting me today. It's great to be here with you. At climate power, in action, we basically work to tell a story. We want to tell the story about how climate change is impacting our communities. Latinos. It's a project done by Latinos and for Latinos.

And of course, we work in an organization, Climate Power. Climate Power is an organization that is focused on building the political will for climate action. I have been working four years now and it's every day, it's interesting, every day is exciting. And I feel very honored to have the privilege to work on climate. So you all have just announced a $5 million investment in educational ads to show what the Biden administration has done to combat not just the climate crisis, but also improve health and economic well-being for Latinos. When we think about issues that are in or at least I should say this when mainstream media speaks about your community and the issues that are impacting them and the issues that they care about climate change is

never on that list so talk to us about the importance of this five million dollar ad campaign and investment and why it's necessary and also what are some of the effects that your community is experiencing in particular well first of all I would argue that climate is connected to every issue that is a top priority for the Latino community in this country, in the United States and all over the world. Why? Because climate connects to everything. And when you face extreme weather event, for example, let's say your house floods, do you think you can work? Do you think you can pay your bills? Do you think that you can send your kids to school?

Do you think that you're going to face health issues to? Every single priority issue, cost, jobs, health, education, everything is connected to climate because when climate, unfortunately, when climate change impacts you, however it is, however, it's a hurricane, it's extreme heat, it's extreme drought, however, it is, it impacts part of your life. So people don't make this connection naturally, but I always put examples like when you go to a supermarket and you find that the fruit you love or the vegetables you love are more expensive,

that is climate. That is a climate story because we have less water and it's more expensive, you know, to have those products in the supermarkets. When you go renovate your house insurance, for example, or your flood insurance, and you pay $900, as I paid recently for mine. You know that it's climate too. I would say no.

Seven years ago, my flood insurance was $200, $200, Daniel. Now it's $900. Because climate is making everything more expensive when it's about housing costs. So I will say that for our community in particular, I mean, I can talk about this all day. different aspects of your life are certainly impacted by the climate crisis. And unfortunately, communities like Latinos, we are at the front lines of this crisis. What houses do you think are more exposed to, for example, climate fires? It's communities of color.

It's Latinos. We live in the areas that are more exposed to rising sea level, to extreme heat, to climate fires. is unfortunately the reality we live on right now. I'm so grateful for the way that you weaved in the economic disruptions that people are experiencing and making it very clear in terms of the connection to climate change. Because we heard, I think it was last year, that one of the biggest insurers said that they were pulling out of the state of Florida, for instance, because it was becoming too expensive. Why?

because of extreme hurricanes, extreme weather that were happening, that they're like people's homes are going to be flooded all the time. Spaces are going to be underwater. Roves are going to blow off because of extreme winds. And so they were deciding that between Florida and California, that they were going to be states that they were no longer going to insure. And so that makes people incredibly economically unstable. Absolutely. And Daniel, like, when someone faces an extreme weather event, like how vulnerable we are, the vulnerability there,

you never think about it unless it happens to you. And I have to say, I have to confess here, I have been working on climate for four years now. And before I had a long career being a journalist. And of course, climate was one of the issues. I cover, but it was not the main one. I covered immigration, for example, education, jobs, et cetera. And until I experienced it myself, I didn't realize how incommensurably big this issue is

and how it can completely freeze your life. So for me, it was a life-changing moment in spite of the pain and the sorrow and the loss that I experienced surviving an extreme weather event. I was fortunate enough to have all the members of my family safe, but it was a life-changing event for me. And I remember like when, because I live in Katie, Texas and my house flooded in 2017 with Hurricane Harvey, remember there was a moment where the house was started to flood and we realized that we needed to go out and we couldn't. So I went outside in the middle of all that dirty, poised. on water and I started to scream for help, for a boat to come, for the rescue boat to come.

And I had my, at that time, I had my three-year-old and my five-year-old with me and my niece when my husband was at home. And you know, I always go to that specific moment in my life when I do this work and when I do interviews or when I am tired and there is, you know, there is more work to be done and I am tired and I feel that maybe, you know, this can wait, I always go back to that moment and I feel in my heart, this cannot wait, this cannot wait. Because I don't want for more people to live that what I have to live through. So for me, it's a matter like when I say that climate impacts every aspect of your life,

I really mean it. How will your ad seek to educate the community? What are some of the things, messages that we're. will be a part of this $5 million investment to get the Latino community to really understand what is at stake in this upcoming election? Well, what we know is that people don't make the connection. They don't connect climate to costs, to jobs, to, they just don't. So there is a lot of work to be done to educate the community about the impact of climate

change and about, you know, if you're paying more for your energy bills, that's climate. So when we talk to people, when we actually inform them and make that connection, that has a huge impact, a huge impact. So it changes their perception and it changes the way they see the issue and the way they see how their family may be impacted by the. this issue now in the present and in the future. So we see enormous value to reach out to the community and talk to them about first how climate change is impacting their life and second, how this new green energy economy, how the clean energy transition is having a positive impact for the community and it presents so much opportunities for Latinos. Because we know

that is the solution. We know that we cannot keep polluting the planet and we know that we need to cut fossil fuels. Otherwise, we will continue with the climate crisis and we will increase the problem. We will expand the problem that we have right now. So we know the only way to do that is transitioning to clean energy. And that is something that Latinos are really open to here. And we have a partner, Somos, and they did a study because there is this preconception, for example, that for our community, oil and gas is a job creator, for example. And a lot of people that comes from Mexico, Ecuador, Venezuela, they do have a connection with the oil and gas industry because, of course, those countries have a lot of oil. But what we found in the study that Somos did, Somos Unido did, was that Latino workers do not want to work on the oil and gas industry anymore,

and they don't want that for their kids either. They think it's too dangerous, and they think that it's polluting the planet too. What we are finding out talking with, for example, Latinos that are working on the clean energy industry is that they are seeing how this presents a future for them a long-term career, a place where they can advance, and also a place where they can do something for the planet. And we know that is ingrained on our culture, too. You know, what I think is important, I mean, you said so many really good points there, but I almost think that the way, in general, that we've been talking about climate change is not something that most people can resonate with.

That we talk about fossil fuels, and we talk about decades ago, it was the ozone layer, and we talk about melting glaciers in these things. And what you said with regard to the utility bills, just bring it back to people's homes. Bring it back to where people are feeling the most burden. Bring it back to their refrigerators. That bag of grapes, that avocado used to be 99 cents. Now is, you know, $5 a pound.

Your utility bill in the summer used to maybe go up to 50, 60 bucks. Now is at 120. Double what it was. If we were to break things down into manageable, just look at your bills. How have your bills changed? Because I think that too often people are incredibly disconnected between what is happening outside

and what is happening inside of their homes. And those two things are connected. Absolutely connected. And I would say that is one of the main priorities and reasons why we did this campaign because we want to show that connection. We want to show that if you're paying more for your energy bills, that is climate. If you are suffering power outages that actually maybe put your medicines,

the ones that you have in the fridge at risk, maybe create problems for your business, that is climate too. If you are paying more in the supermarket for products that require a lot of water, that is climate. If you're paying more for house insurance, for flood insurance, that is climate. And of course, if unfortunately you have to work outside and you put your life at risk, that is climate too, because Daniel, unfortunately, Latino workers, for example, almost 80% of farm workers are Latinos. and they have to work outside with these temperatures

that put their life at risk every single day. And we have states like Texas, like Florida, that actually cut breaks. Yeah, yeah, that said, oh, no water breaks. It's 100 degrees outside and 100% humidity. And it's like, you know, perfectly that those are Republican governors in the state of Texas, where I am at, right? now and in the states of Florida, they do not believe in climate change. They are climate deniers.

They are kind of the portrait of climate denialism. And we know also that former President Trump and now Republican candidate Trump, he's also the best and the greatest climate denier of all. That honestly, Daniel gives me a lot of anxiety when I think about what comes. What kind of happen with everything we have done to protect our planet, to protect climate, to decrease the impact of the climate crisis, having the possibility of four years of Trump in the White House, it will be a complete disaster for all of us, and especially when we think about climate, because he will destroy. He will destroy everything we have done in the last four years. years to actually face this crisis, to actually do something about it. And we cannot let that

happen. So that is why it's so important for people to know how climate change is impacting their lives and how the transition to a new green economy is also having a great and positive impact for them. Last question for you, Anto, how will a green economy help boost the economic stability of the Latino community? Well, what we know so far because we have to put numbers to this, otherwise, you know, Latinos, we show it, and then I will believe it, we have that type of mentality. So we need the numbers.

And unfortunately, we have, we started to see numbers that are showing the results. For example, we know that since the passage of the climate law, for example, we have created more than 300,000 new jobs, which is billions and billions of dollars in boosting local economies. Those numbers are super important for Latinos. Why? Because, for example, from those 300,000s, more than 127,000 are jobs that are located in communities with low income. In communities, of course, where more Latinos live. We know that this clean energy economy is bringing a lot of opportunities for Latinos.

I mean, programs like solar for all, for example, that is from the climate bill. That will create and will give solar power to more than 900,000 low-income families. We know that there are programs like that one that will bring the opportunity for Latinos to decrease energy costs through clean energy. We know that with the rivets we have with the climate deal, also people have access now to, for example, do some weatherization in their homes to conserve better the energy. And we know that a lot of the climate action we have seen in the last four years to protect our air, to protect our water, to have more clean buses, more electric buses for schools, the new standards for PIFAs, for example, all of these measures that are intended to decrease pollution in water and in air, it's having an direct impact for communities like Latinos because we are the ones that are more exposed. It's not a coincidence, for example, that Latino kids, they suffer double asthma

attacks in comparison with white children, for example. There is a reason behind that and is that we live in areas that are more polluted. So that, like all of these, all these elements, and this is like when we talk about the impacts of climate change for people, this is the same. All the impacts of the clean energy transition, all these different areas are making the difference for communities like Latinos. And I hope that with the campaign we launch,

we make those benefits evidentes, very evident. Emto, thank you so much for the work that you're doing, for the work that climate power and Auxione is doing and for making the time to join the new abnormal. Really, really appreciate you. Thank you so much, Daniel. It was a pleasure to talk with you. Jeff Charlotte is someone I absolutely love talking to. He teaches writing at Dartmouth College, has won multiple awards for his own writing and is the author of seven books. His most recent, The Undertoe, Scenes from a Slow Civil War, was a finalist for the National Book Critic Circle Award in the nonfiction.

category. And he joins me now to talk about the state of America in 2024. Jeff, thanks so much for being here. Oh, good to be with you again. So you've now got a substack at jeffsharlet.substack.com, and it's called scenes from a slow civil war. And as you say in the description, after covering Trump in 2016 and 2020, you were going to sit out 2024, but the slow civil war is speeding up. So explain what you mean by that. I really thought that the media shows them naive at myself. I thought that we'd all learned our lesson. And 2020, we did. You know, press coverage in 2020 wasn't perfect, but it was smarter in 2016. Nobody was doing that sort of silliness of, well, he can't possibly win or it's all bluff or how can you take him seriously and so on.

The press took him seriously in 2020, and that's part of what helped stop that second term. I think two things are happening right now. The press is not uniformly taking him seriously. And I was thinking, for instance, of a New York Times headline I just saw the other day. Biden paints Trump as a. a felon. I mean, what do you mean pain? He's a felon. It's not a matter of opinion. They're still doing that kind of both sides. So there's that on that side. But then on the other side, what happens when the press can take him seriously enough is they don't pay attention to

the escalating violence and the rhetoric. And that started, I'll start, I noticed that right after his first speech, after his indictment, he came roaring out with a new kind of anti-Semitic trope, which has not really been commented on much. He's now it's a boy that played in his speeches. He says, we're going to chase out the globalists and drive out the communists. He means the money changers. It's a direct quote of the gospel of John and Mark, and drive out the money changer.

And it's an old anti-Semitic idea that money changers are Jews. He means this is globalists. This is new thing. That was an escalation. And it's been going nonstop since until now. these recent speeches, we're hearing him speak openly of violence and not even regretfully, but in advocacy. And too many folks are saying, well, that's ridiculous and awful, but that's not going to happen.

We didn't think generalists were going to happen until it did. So I decided, back to the trenches. Yeah, one of the things you write is you basically say the news media is a ghost of even what it was in 2020. and we're pretty much running out of time for the old guard media to figure out that democracy versus fascism shouldn't be a got to hear both sides thing, aren't we? The key part of that is that it's the ghost of what it was. When I think back, even in 2020 and, you know, the magazine, I don't want to name, I don't want to shame them. It's not their fault. The magazine that I was reporting that for, it was thinner then than than I ever had been and it's skinnier now.

There's fewer pages. There's less space. There's all kinds of publications that aren't really there anymore. like Huffo and BuzzFeed and so on. There's all kinds of newspapers, not just the big nationals, but the big regionals that used to have reporters who travel the country thinking,

you know, the Baltimore Sun would say, we need to have a reporter who's going to go and cover this. And there's so much less of that. And not to mention this year alone, by some estimates, we're going to lose a quarter to a third of our local newspapers around the country. And every magazine that survives has less space.

I don't even want to sort of say like, well, the press isn't learning. The press isn't there anymore. I mean, so many of the people who did have those skills were the higher paid people who are getting laid off and pushed aside. And I think that's something that liberals in the left actually are not falling. The rise of fascism is in direct relationship to the decline and collapse of American news media, no matter how frustrating you find that news media, because I hear all the time from people saying, well, I'll never read the New York Times. I'll never read the Washington Post. And I'm like, great, now Trump trembles. The idea that we don't stay engaged with these newspapers that screw up all the time and that have some bad faith actors, also have some brilliant reporters. But most importantly, we have the resources that nobody else had to do this kind of reporting. The idea that we're just going to opt out and get our news from TikTok, that's doing. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm curious, in the undertow, you called what's happening in America. You didn't refer to it as a crisis.

You called it a condition. It's been a little over a year, I think, since the book came. came out. How is the patient doing? We're not responding to treatment. Yeah. And we're not getting the treatment. You know, there's maybe a slow drip of medicine that a doctor a little while ago left and the infection is spreading. Part of what's interesting to me, too, is I see a kind of grief reaction and liberals

in the left. And, you know, we see this in the, you know, that term that we hear sometimes opium, this idea, everything's fine and Biden's really ahead. No one's going to vote for Trump again, and then in the flip side, the hysteria. And then we see people were treating to issues that are absolutely number one important and essential. The war in Gaza is essential. But when I see folks I've known for years, smart, leftist writers and journalists say things, I don't want to get in particular. See, I'm thinking of one particular journalist going and saying, well, we don't know what Trump's position on Gaza is. So he's not going to vote for Biden. And I'm not getting into people to fight with people over the conscience and so on. But that's a collapse of news, too.

we certainly do know what Trump's position on God is. It's even more monstrous. We certainly know what its position on Islamophobic to the extreme. And yet, I think people sort of want to not wrestle with the scale and the vastness of the horror that could come if we don't organize themselves. So they pick this issue or that issue. And they're all essential issues. They all need to be on front lines.

I don't want to take anything away from that. But then they take that issue and they make it the only thing they can see. and we're all at risk because of the man. Yeah, absolutely. I want to talk about something that you wrote. Trump gave a speech in Las Vegas in early June, and it was widely covered. One of the things he said to the crowd in the 100-plus degree heat was,

I don't care about you. But I don't want to even talk about that. I do. You got to let me talk about that. Absolutely. That point right there is why I decided, okay, am I going to go back and write about this again? That point right there is a perfect illustration because that's Trump.

I saw it in 16. I saw it 20, Hershey, Pennsylvania. He said, 12 more years. Watch this. The press is only going to talk about that 12 more years next day. That was the only line in the press

and what they didn't cover, in fact, was the 15-minute riff he did on the faces of death for her show kind of rape and pillaging that he says was happening in the country.

They didn't pay attention to that. He did the same thing in Las Vegas. He said, I don't care about you. It was transparently a joke. I'm not defending him. People say, how could you defend that? I'm not defunding it.

defending him. And the next breath, he says, and that's what the press is going to talk about. And holy shit, if they just, I mean, you know, it was like a fish leaping out of the air for the thing. Something on an MSNBC. Trump even admits it now. He doesn't care. And what they didn't understand or didn't care to work with because it was just easier to run with that. One, it was a joke. And two, he doesn't care about people. Three, they know that. Four, they love him for him, right? instead of meeting him, instead of saying, let us contend with this fascist threat. Let's pretend we haven't got you while we get reeled out of the water. No, for sure. And I'm glad that you wanted to talk about that because I couldn't agree with you more on that.

But I wanted to talk about something else that you took away from the whole Trump in Vegas experience. And that was about the opening speakers, people like the utterly despicable Wayne Allen route. And the fact that they didn't get and they just never do get much coverage from the CNNs of the world. But you referred to them as the unregulated id of a Trump rally. And I think that's exactly right. And also just such an important point that needs to be, you know, explored by a lot more people. I mean, this again, where's the press learning? 16, 20.

I remember I started going to my first Trump rally in reporter in 16. And I've been writing about the religious right for 20 years. And so I've heard religious right preachers. I was hearing some of the furthest right, most militant stuff I'd ever heard. and I'd look around at the press and they'd be on their phones, you know, texting, because this is not the main event. This is in politics. And here we are in 24, and we're not paying attention to.

A Trump rally is an hour, an hour and a half speech by Trump, but it's really a 10-hour affair. And you're going to report that. As a reporter, you go to an event, it's 10-hour, and you only pay attention to an hour of it. You haven't reported it. And Wayne Allen-Rood is a great example. We actually opened for Trump in 20 in Vegas as well.

this guy who was run out of Las Vegas's right wing paper for being too extreme, who denied the murder of Heather Hire and Charlottesville. People remember she was an activist in Charlottesville, Virginia at the United Right Rally, a fascist white supremacist ran her down in his car, was convicted of murder. He denied it, and he denied it on the grounds. He says, no conservative I've ever met, has ever committed an act of violence ever. Yeah. So that's his line.

And then what's he do in Vegas this past June? It was a pure war speech. And it just started, you knew he was speaking in metaphor, but the metaphor started to fall away. Maybe the metaphor started to harden and become concrete, talking about we're going to fight. This is a war. This is a battle. I mean, really extreme language working up in a crowd. And, you know, we don't have to ask ourselves, is Trump talking about civil war?

It's the opening sermon at his round. let's pay attention. Let's talk to that. Let's listen to those folks. And also, what I loved about that rally, I was going to go in Vegas, and I decided not to kick them a wimp, and it was going to be a deep dome, and I'm like, I don't want to do it. And right-wing broadcaster, R-SBN, they did six hours of wandering around, kind of doing what I do when I go to those rallies, just talking to everyday people. But of course, they're speaking as, you know, one fascist to another. And you heard these idea. You heard the fantasies of everyday people, each one of which can be dismissed as fringe, right? And I think that's part of what CNN's of the world don't get. Not exclusively. I think

Donnie, the Irishman reports for CNN, he's terrific. The rest of it is he goes and he talks to folks at the rally. You're not paying attention to that fringe, all those folks, each with their unusual ideas, they are the fabric of Trumpism. And if one seems goofy, add them up. And what you're looking at there in Nevada is the strong possibility of a Trump victory in a battleground state. I know you've said that the undertow is ultimately a hopeful book. And I'm curious if you still feel that way, not about the book, obviously, but about America's condition. Are you still ultimately hopeful? I am both long range and short range, right? Long range. And when I wrote the undertow and even with what I think is the current condition then, there's no question at this point that we are

going to go through a phase of real fascism in America. Whether that fascism will return to the White House, I don't know. But it's certainly going to be the Republican Party. I think it is fair to say. It's a fascist-dominated party now, not exclusively fashion, obviously. But the fascists are in control. I mean, we've got an insurrectionist Scott Perry just added to the Intelligence Committee because, as Mike Johnson says, Trump told him to,

less attention was paid to the Armed Services Committee, a representative named Clay Higgins from Louisiana, also an insurrectionist, who I wrote about last year for his openly pro-Civil War rhetoric. That's there. Those people are in power. We're going to go through that. I believe that we're going to come out the other side or at least some of us off. And, you know, that's the measured optimism. There's going to be folks lost and that's already happening. But I do believe we'll come out the other stuff. How long and how many are lost, that's up to us in the meantime. In this short term, though, I am, I wouldn't say optimistic. It's a thin hope if you're pinning whatever optimism you have on Joe Biden winning.

And there's nothing one can say about Joe Biden that won't get you yelled at at this point. If I in any way acknowledge any weakness, there's folks like, how dare you speak in all of the greatest present I've ever known? And if I say, yeah, I think my optimism is pinned on the possibility. I think it is possible for him to beat Trump. Others are going to say, what's the difference? He's just the same as Trump. He's not just the same as Trump.

And I'll leave it to the policy wonks, let's do all the policies that are different. And I'll leave it to others to say, like, here are all the deep problems with him. But he's not Trumpist. He's not the end of voting in America, which is what Trumpism could be. I think it could win.

I think we have to organize. I think I see people organizing. As much as I see the press not taking things seriously, enough. And I'll say, look, I can give you names of reporters who I think are doing great job. editors, maybe not so much. Washington Post with this absurdity of hiring these allegedly creditors from the UK to run Washington Post at this most critical time is his action,

but there's still great reporters at all those institutions doing hard work. And I saw a good story the other day a little while ago in The New York Times and we're going to see more of organizations saying, okay, let's not just focus on the election, but let's put things in place to be prepared to hunker down. Right. if Trump comes back. I was inspired by the governor of Washington stockpiling in state. So it can't be blocked, abortion medication. That's the work and that I see people doing that didn't happen in 16, obviously. It didn't really happen at 20 either. I see a learning period. And I feel inspired by it. Did you see the Alex Garland film Civil War?

I did. For a while, I resolved. I'm not going to talk about anybody with it because I thought it was so powerful in so many different ways. And I thought I'm seeing a different movie. apparently than what so many have written about. And I talked to other journalists and felt the same way. And I talked to journalists, too, like, that's not what photojournalism is really like. I didn't think so. It's a movie. And it signals not only a movie, but also in this kind of hallucinatory phase.

I thought there's a lot to be aware of in that movie, not in a literal direct line. And the same with the Handmaid's Tale is not a portrait. What Cambridge, Massachusetts is going to look like five years from now. Right. Trump comes back. But it's the mood of fashion. and disruption and breakdown and exhaustion of those who have been on the front lines, whether as journalists or activists or organized this, but I think that movie captures.

Yeah, no, I'm with you. I absolutely loved it. You know, I've had discussion slash arguments with people about it because they didn't feel the same way. And everything they sort of didn't like about it, I thought was good. Like they kept saying, well, I couldn't tell what sides were what. And I was like, well, yeah, that's a civil war in America. you know, I think showing that confusion and the uncertainty and are these people my friends, are these people my enemies, are they the good guys, are we the good guys? I thought it was a really powerful portrayal of, in particular, that aspect of what, you know, a split of this country could mean.

Absolutely. Although I will say, some folks, I'm like, oh, I couldn't tell. Was the president supposed to be a good guy or a bad guy? It was Trump. And if you couldn't tell that, you haven't been paying attention, right? Right. But a key moment, and I think this goes toward the kind of reporting that I want to see now before, so that we never come to that point is in the movie, our photojournalist and protagonists, they come upon a battle between men in uniform and you're not even sure what side they're on

and some other men who are wearing Hawaiian shirts and look to appear to be some kind of militia. Well, you and I know, I think, because we cover the right, that the guys in Hawaiian shirts are like the boo-oo-oo-oo-boo-boid. That's a real thing that exists now. And the confusion of what size the Boogloo Boys on, that's also a real thing that exists now. The Booglu Boys who would show up and they said, we're going to march with Black Lives Matter. There was also Boogloos at January 6th in the same way that, for instance, and this breaks my heart because it's older, now it's old-time, the old-time listeners remember Occupy Wall Street, more than a few veterans of Occupy Wall Street, which I thought was a brilliant movement of deep political imagination curdled and sour

and you see them now in the heart of Trumpism. You see them now. They're J-6ers and so on, not all of them. I was at occupied. I'm not a J-Sixir. But those lines shift. And we know that from history, too. And I think that kind of that appeal to clarity,

those are folks who haven't even done the very light work of watching the history channel to understand that fascism in Italy begins with an avant-garde artistic movement and anarchists. Or to be paying attention to really read the news from Ukraine. We read the news from Ukraine, and even in the Ukrainian army, it's hard sometimes to know which side people are on, which is the nature of horrific wars. And the way that Trumpism is infecting America and it's infecting everybody, most immediately the right, but also the left, is this idea that we can have simple clarity, that there's good guys and bad guys and you can tell by looking right away

and that the bad guys are pure evil and the good guys are pure good. That's a Trumpist idea. That's a fascist idea. that is not a Democratic career. I want us to resist it. And I want to see us, my fellow journalist, sort of go and lay through that murk. Jeff, I always, as I said at the top, I love talking to you. And I wasn't sure if I should ask you about the movie.

And I'm so glad I did. Folks, go check out jeffsharlet.substack.com. If you haven't read The Undertoe, you're really missing out. And Jeff, thank you so much for coming back on. Thanks, Andy. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of the new abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday.

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