The Daily Beast Podcast - Why Andrew's Epstein Shame Will Never End: Author

Episode Date: December 4, 2025

Andrew Lownie joins Joanna Coles with a bracing account of a royal family in complete public meltdown. Lownie, an author and British historian, lays out why Prince Andrew’s downfall is no longer a contained scandal but a widening corruption crisis—one that now stretches from sex-trafficking allegations to financial misconduct, secret meetings with Bahrain, and the Queen and Prince Philip’s decades-long blind spot for their “favorite” son. As King Charles battles cancer and Prince William quietly takes the reins, Joanna presses Lownie on whether Andrew will flee Britain, what Sarah Ferguson might reveal, and whether this is the most perilous moment for the monarchy since the abdication. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It seems so unlike the queen we think of, who was always talking about duty first. It is shocking. It's one of the most shocking things I found in the book. The Palace tried to suppress all stories about Andrew and Geoffrey. Time and time again, she would give him Andrew a new appointment when he was in the news on Epstein. She just had a complete blind spot. I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. And today we have in the studio a guest we have had only on. line up until now, but whose book really squeezed Prince Andrew into the unpalatable place

of having to give up his title Prince. Yes, I'm talking about the British historian Andrew Loney, whose book entitled The Rise and the Fall of the House of York really precipitated the calamitous fall of Prince Andrew, not only from public life, but getting him eased out of the Royal Lodge, which is where he's been living for the past few years. And Andrew's prediction for what's going to happen to him, Andrew Loney's prediction of what's going to happen to Andrew Mountbatten, Windsor, is, it's pretty sticky, actually. I was a little surprised by it. So many revelations to come.

So exciting to have British author and historian Andrew Loney in the studio. I'm amazed you're even a. allowed into America? Well, I did fly Aer Lingus, so I thought if I'm going to go through preclearance, I'll be sent back from Dublin rather than from here. Okay, very smart. Also a cheaper flight, I think. It is, yes. So, Andrew, we have talked about your book entitled The Rise and Fall of the House of York repeatedly on this podcast. And I think it's fair to say that partly as a result of your book and Nobody's Girl, the Virginia Juffrey book,

Prince Andrew has now had to give up his title. But it feels as if the entire royal family is in some kind of transitional phase. What are your thoughts about where the royal family is right now? Well, I think it's beyond transitional. I think they're in trouble. You actually think they're in trouble? Yes. I mean, I think, you know, the whole point of the book was this was about financial corruption

at the heart of the royal family. and Andrew was being protected. It was operating with the connivance of the institution. And so now people are asking wider questions, beyond Andrew, about how this was allowed to happen, why he wasn't dealt with earlier, and how he continues to be protected. So, for example, there's a story in the paper today

about how the king has had a meeting with the king of Bahrain in order basically to facilitate Andrew's escape to Bahrain. So Andrew, formerly known as Prince Andrew, is moving actually, as you had predicted, to Bahrain, you think? Yes, and it's a good chance for that. I mean, I've always said that if charges were brought, and I think they will be brought, that he would scop her in the way that King Juan Carlos of Spain has done so,

and gone to live in Dubai. And what would the charges likely be against Andrew, formerly known as Prince? Well, there are lots. I mean, there's a whole sex trafficking. I mean, the point is if Virginia Jifrey was ordered out of a book by Andrew, she didn't go there voluntarily. The matter of investigator this three times said there was nothing to see there. There's now pressure on them to actually do a proper investigation.

When I asked the freedom information question, they wouldn't even answer me. This whole crisis has been driven by the public who are kind of fed up with cover-ups, with the protection of elites. And the press have realized that, which is why they've felt emboldened to ask tougher and tougher questions. and the royals are now aware of that. And to save themselves, to save wider questions about royal privilege and accountability, they've thrown Andrew to the walls in effect. There are also clearly all the questions about as time as a trade envoy.

I think there's a lot of material there. All that material I would happily pass to the National Crime Agency or to the Met. And have they asked you for your help? Nope. No. I repeatedly said that I would give them help. In fact, 20 years ago, MPs were very very very. very keen that the National Crime Agency did investigate Andrew.

They're still holding back all the files on Andrew covering his time as a trade envoy. These files by law should actually be in the public archives. And even now, I'm getting, for example, redacted names of people who accompanied him when we even had those names 30 years ago in the court circular. So they're actually going backwards on what we actually was in the public domain before.

Wow, it's an amazing story. So one of the things you said when we last spoke, you were in London, I was here, which generated an enormous number of comments. And I'd love to address and sort of unpack with you properly is this idea that he was the Queen's favourite son. So he was the number two son and that she protected him. And that both her and her husband, both the Queen and Prince Philip, knew of Andrews. bad behaviour and really didn't do anything to rein him in. It seems so unlike the queen we think of, who was always talking about duty first, and yet she appears to have had this second son who had no interest in duty apart from to himself and to serve his own needs. Yeah, it is shocking. It's one of the

most shocking things I found the book, and it goes against the narrative. The narrative was always you put the monarchy ahead of her family, often to their cost. But, you know, it's a lot of, but, you You know, time and time again, I've got stories of diplomats going to her with complaints about Andrew. The palace tried to suppress all stories about Andrew and Geoffrey to the extent of forbidding or telling ABC that if television, if they wanted to run a story, they wouldn't have access to any members of the royal family again. Time and time again, she would give Andrew a new appointment when he was in the news on Epstein. So he was made a knight of the garter. He was made a vice-admiral of the Navy, which he still is. He was made that after the revelations about Virginia Dufre.

Yeah, absolutely. So she rewarded him with a knight of the garter, which sounds like the most insane arcane British thing. What even is the knight of the garter? Well, the knights of the garter, I think, restricted to about 20 of them. It's for the most prestigious, I suppose, people in public life in Britain who've really achieved something very, very notable. But half of them are members of the royal family.

So you kind of think it's just them giving themselves baubles. and they liked to parade around in their robes. It was one of the things that Andrew liked best. And even after he lost his royal role, he was still able to go to the lunch, even though he wasn't able to parade in the street because he'd clearly be pelted with eggs. So she was, you know, she was escorting him to events,

getting to sit beside her in the car, going to church, everything to send out the signal that the royal family actually believed that he was an innocent man. And so the Queen was giving him air cover and baubles, as you say. What about the Duke of Edinburgh, her husband, who was supposed to be the one that sort of led the actual family? Yeah, this is a great mystery. I can't explain it.

I mean, he, I know was very concerned about the Sunning Hill stale. This was the sale of the house the Queen had given Andrews a wedding present, which was sold for £3 million more than the asking price when there was no other bidder. and he realized that didn't look good. He was the one who basically said to Andrew the games up and you've got to drop out of public life. So he did call the shots in respects. But my understanding is that when he raised his matters with the Queen,

she just had a complete blind spot and her son could do no wrong. And yet she seems to have been harder. And, you know, I'm just going on things I've read, perhaps written by you. but she seemed harder on Prince Charles who would become king. Is that fair? Yes. I mean, I think, and Philip was certainly very hard on Charles. I mean, it is a very odd scenario where, you know,

I suppose they had high expectations of Charles and they kind of let Andrew do what he wanted. And this goes right back to Andrew's sort of childhood where there were no barriers. He didn't have to follow the rules. And he realized he could get away. and the rules didn't really apply to him. And that's happened right up to the present day.

You know, the fact is that this problem should have been dealt with 10, 15 years ago. And even in 2019 or 22, when he was withdrawing from public life, they didn't really do anything. You know, even now, he hasn't lost his titles. He's been taken away from the peerage, but he still hauls his titles. And as I say, he's still a vice-admiral in the Navy. So it's all window dressing. He's not going to move to a little two-up, two down, and something. Sandringham. He's going to move to a nice big house with servants. His life is not really going to change.

And possibly he is going to be aided to basically get away from justice in this country with the help of the king. So let's think about the king's role in all this, because this is also complicated by the fact that we know he has cancer. We don't know what kind of cancer because in classic royal family sort of tradition they put out some of the information, but not all of the information. So we're told that he's living with cancer, but it can't be cured, which has led to speculation about how much time he's got left. And then you've got Prince William, Prince of Wales, sort of limbering up in the sidelines to get ready to take over.

So between the king and Prince William, who has the most say at the moment now about what happens to Andrew? Well, I think we're in a transitional stage in the way we were when Charles was taking over the duties of the Queen in the last few years of her life. And William is calling more of the shots. Charles is interested in legacy.

William is interested in governance. And he doesn't want to inherit the problem of Andrew, so he wants the stables clean before he gets there. Charles is reluctant to do that. The tensions between the two of them, Charles are still the workaholic who feels that the royal family should be there and kind of spread themselves pretty thinly. William feels that they should be focused on a few key things. They should get their mental health and their families as a priority and wants a much more slimmed down European-style monarchy.

So there is this tension. There's always tension between Prince of Wales and a monarch. But it does seem to be, you know, particularly over Andrew. Charles is much more forgiving. William, I think, is much more ruthless. He doesn't have any sentimental attachment to his uncle. So when William takes over as king, Sandringham will be his Norfolk property, right? I mean, I'm assuming that he'll take it over. So will he want Andrew living on the premises? I don't think Andrew will be there. I think Sanringen is a temporary spot. He may not even ever go there.

As I say, if charges are brought, I think he will leave the country. One of the things with Bahrain, I think, is that he will be protected there. He will not be, they will not be able to extradite him to either Britain or the states. So, and I think he may be going there sooner than everyone thinks. The line always also is security. So we won't tell you where he's going for his own security. So he may not even go to Sandringham. He may go somewhere else.

So he'll go direct, you think, from Royal Lodge, which is where he's, still is, right, with his 30 bedrooms, to Bahrain to avoid ending up in jail? I think so. You know, he was meant to leave Royal Lodge as soon as was practicable. Well, that was a couple of, you know, to a month ago. There's no sign that he's going to move any time until sometime next year. I suspect it will be quite late next year. So, you know, they're playing the whole thing long. What they're saying in public and what's actually happening in reality are two very different things. And that, I'm afraid, is the same story as always with the royal family. It's all smoke and mirrors and winter dressing.

So the third child in the Queen's four children is Princess Anne, who I think is probably the child that people are most fond of. She seems to work very hard. She's kept below the radar. She doesn't seem to behave badly as far as we know. What does she think about all this? Do we have any sense of it? And of course she had her own mysterious accident where she was found in a field, right, with a head injury.

Yes. Well, you know, so much we don't know. And this is why, you know, everyone is calling for greater accountability about, I mean, not so much health, but certainly on financial issues. I think there is some sympathy in the royal family for Andrew. I mean, that he's clearly not in a good way at the moment. He's kind of fighting this. He feels he's been hard done by, and they, I think, wanted to keep him on side. The rural worry is Sarah Ferguson and what she might do, because, of course, she's also now lost her property and she's lost where she's living and she's also lost her title. So has she moved out of Royal Lodge?

No, she's still there for the moment, but I think she's trying to work out where to go. And there are various options. One is to go and live with one daughter in the Cotswolds and other is to go and live in Portugal with another. I think Richard Branson and some of her sort of mentors have offered her things. She's just sold a four million pound house in Belgrade in London. So she's not short of money. She could easily go and rent somewhere. She at one point was going to move to Switzerland, so that's another option.

I doubt she'll want to go to the Middle East. But, you know, there are a lot of options there. And people say she may even come to the States where she's always been far more popular than she is in Britain. I mean, this is just the most extraordinary story to think of the British royal family sort of imploding like this and the Queen's favourite son being banished to the Middle East to avoid legal proceedings and his ex-wife threatening a tell-all. Do you think they continue? Is there actually a sort of sense now a drumbeat almost in the UK for a proper republic? I think that this is probably the most dangerous moment in royal history since the abdication and perhaps before that. And that would be the abdication of Henry, oh, Henry the 8th, of Edward. Edward the 18th, in 1936, or December 35.

That was because of Wallace Simpson, who he wanted to marry, but she was divorced. So that meant he had to give up the throne if he wanted to marry her, which he did. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think it is a dangerous point because I think what we're seeing here is to say is financial corrupt. within the royal family, people asking much wider questions about the apakness of their finances, which they don't want to answer. We've got, actually, they're running out of people to man the fort. You know, Harry and Megan are off, Andrew and Sarah Ferguson are out. I think the only ones under 60 now are basically the Prince of Wales and Catherine. The children are clearly too young to have any role. So this plays to the argument of concentrating everything on the direct line of succession

and only those in direct line of succession having titles. So that would mean Beatrice and Nugeney would also lose titles. I mean, this is another whole error of the debate. What's their future? Are they compromised by their parents' activities? And this is Andrew and Fergie's children, Beatrice Nugherty. Sorry, yes, who are in their late 30s, married with children. but there are lots of stories about them doing business off the back of their parents' contacts,

particularly in the Middle East. They've been told to basically rein in their activities and that there should be some sort of audit of who they're dealing with, which they've refused to do, which in itself is quite revealing. So we've got them. So I think the likelihood is that when William comes to power, and I think it could be much soon that people realise, that all of them, Eugenie, Beatrice, Harry, Megan,

and their children will all lose their titles. It will move to a much more simple, say, European-style monarchy. We saw this the other day with Williams' interview with Eugene Levy. There he turns up on a bicycle. You know, all this was very carefully, it's a very careful calibrated PR campaign. This is just another normal family. They live quite modestly. They're focused on their children.

They dress in the sort of clothes that you would normally dress in. So that's the picture that's. been sent out that William wants to present. It's not the picture that his father feels comfortable with. So that's where there's some slight tension. But yeah, things are breaking up, I think. You know, the young can't relate to our family.

There's terrific apathy. Republic, which is the anti-monicist organization, is feeling quite sort of strong at the moment. Poles have shown that, you know, levels of support have fallen from about 80 to 50% or less. And so they do

need to sort of regroup and rethink what they do. And as more of these stories come out, not just about Andrew, but the question's now being asked about the King and cash for honours with him, other slightly wider, further afield members of the Royal Family, Peter Phillips and Zara Phillips and some of their sponsorship deals. And they're the kids of Princess Anne. Sorry, yes, the children of Princess Anne. So these are more grandchildren of the Queen, but who have got their own careers, but the worry is that their careers are slightly predicated on their royal status. Now, there are other members of the royal family who have had independent careers, Lord Lindley, who's the son of Princess Margaret,

who was the sister of the Queen, has got his own career. He's a chairman of Christy's, he's forged his own career. His sister is an artist, never gets into the papers. So there are members of the royal family who've dropped out. The famous occasion where many people in the public realize what Andrew and Sarah were like was the Duchess of Kent's funeral a few months ago. And the Kent family, again, have forged a very independent line outside royal circles with their own careers. And the Duchess of Kent had left Royal Service and was just a music teacher outside London. So it can be done. I think the worry is when they try and monetise their royal status.

Right. Which is, of course, what Meghan Markle wanted to do. And Harry, with their Sussex seal and the Queen told them that they couldn't do it. Andrew, hold on one second. We're going to take a word for. from our sponsors. And we're back with Andrew Loney talking about whatever happened to Prince Andrew. Can we just, for those people who haven't seen the photos from that funeral for the Duchess of Kent,

I mean, Tom Sykes, our royalist columnist, had a series of those photos which were fantastic, but can you quite describe them for people? I mean, because they all looked absolutely at daggers, didn't they? I mean, the photos told an amazing story of animosity. Yeah, yes, it was like watching the Kremlin or something. It really was. It's the background is the Duchess of Kent had a funeral. I understand that actually Andrew and Sarah weren't even invited but turned up.

They were given an armed escort from Windsor, which someone must have provided, though they were not working royals. Instead of going into the side door, they went down the middle of the aisle at the cathedral and sat in the front row. And then instead of slipping out quiet, out of the side. Wow, they sat in the front row. Yes, when the relationship is that Andrew's mother is a cousin of the husband of the woman who died. I mean, it's not a particularly close relationship.

Okay, hold on, Andrew's mother. So the queen was a cousin of the Duchess. So her cousin was the Duke of Kent? Yes. Okay. Yeah. But when they come out and everyone is paying their respects to the hearse, Andrew and Sarah are treating it like it's a cocktail party. wandering around, chatting to people, trying to get themselves into the photos to show that everyone loves them. A little bit like a kid at school who wants to sort of cozy up to the prefects.

There was a lot of pick-mey energy, I thought, in it. Yeah. There was, I mean, and also William was there and looked like he didn't want to talk to them at all. You could see Andrew trying to engage him in conversation and William looking away or barely muttering a word. Yes, I mean, they were all trying to pay respects. The house was about. to leave. It was a solemn moment. And then cheeky chippy chippy, Andrew comes and wants to make

conversation. And you're absolutely right. William totally ignores him. And also, they kind of move right to the center of the sort of pictures. Instead of hanging back at the sides or at the back, they kind of want the front stage. And we've seen this time and time again. When they were invited back to Sandringham,

which was the first time that Sarah Ferguson had been invited back for many years, She kind of guerns her way and goes and ways to the crowd as if she's the center of attraction. But we've got to remember we're dealing with two prime narcissists here. And this was their opportunity for a bit more, you know, a bit of attention. Well, they certainly got the attention. Does Fergie get on with the king? I mean, what do the king and Camilla think of Fergie?

Well, that's an interesting relationship. Prince Philip couldn't stand, Fergie, and she was bound from all royal events while he was alive. Fergie pretends that the Queen was very fond of her, which she was, to a limited extent, in that she was fond of her grandchildren. She was pleased that Fergie had basically taken Andrew off their hands. But, you know, she could see her faults.

Camilla had been very friendly with Sarah Ferguson's mother, and indeed Mark Shan, her brother, had worked with Sarah in an animal charity. So there was a bond there. And when Philip died, and then the Queen, died, Fergie used Camilla as a way back into the family. Charles is quite sentimental, he's quite forgiving and he kind of thought, well, we better get her back in the fold. She's sort of kind of safer here and we're all one big happy family. And William didn't like that. Many other

members of the Royal Family didn't like that. Edward particularly has, and Sophie haven't got a good relationship. And Edward is the younger child. He's the youngest child of the Queen. He's the fourth child. Right. So she kind of wormed her way back in. So having been the out, cast for 20 years. Suddenly she was having Charles kiss her hand at Ascot. She was in the Royal Box at Wimbledon. And everyone was slightly surprised

because of all the embarrassment she'd brought to the royal family over the previous years. But this clearly was a sort of reset. And now, of course, they're now realizing that was a bad idea. And I think the worry is Charles is going to do this naively all over again with Beatrice and Eugenie.

The deal for Andrew leaving Royal Lodge because he is an iron cast lease there. And Tom Sykes is very good on this, is that there was no voluntary. He could only go voluntarily. Well, the only way he was going to go was if he was paid large sums of money to go, and he felt that his family was going to be protected.

His ambitions have all been transferred to his daughters, batten, both in terms of the business certificates, but also their role in the royal family, has been handed to them. And so the deal was they would retain their titles, which of course their calling card for, doing business in the Middle East, and they would be welcome at Sandringham at Christmas, they would be part of the royal family.

And on that basis, he was prepared to go. And that's what Charles is trying to maintain, you know, to allow that to happen against opposition from other members of the right family. So Charles, in a way, has inherited his mother's ability to protect certain members of the family. I just wanted to go back to one thing you said that Prince Philip really didn't like Fergie and didn't want her around, is that because the first line of your book entitled says that he had an affair with Fergie's mother?

Yes, you did have an affair with Fergie's mother, which, you know, no one... A very arresting first line of the book. Well, it must be interesting psychologically. If you're about to get married to someone whose mother has slept with your father, that must be slightly unusual. Maybe, maybe not... Father-in-law, whose mother slept with your father-in-law. Well, but the two of them together.

So Andrew's talking to home. It's a bit weird. But absolutely. No, I think Philip, the reason that Fergie's father kept his job as polo manager to Charles was because he clearly knew all the secrets and was prepared to keep quiet. In the way that, for example, Andrew Parker Bowles kept quiet about Camilla's relationship with Charles. It's all kept very much within this little tight circle. I think Philip wanted Fergie out because he could see the.

reputational damage that she was doing. She didn't feel she was good for her son. His son, he couldn't move on in his life. He could see how she was capitalizing on her royal position. He didn't really like her. So I don't think it was back to the mum. Well, maybe every time he looked at her, he just thought of her mum, Susie Barantus. Well, he did, he kept in touch with Susie Brantus. I mean, whether there was still a sexual relationship, I don't know. But on the night of the fire in 1992, Windsor, November, which was actually his wedding anniversary with the Queen. He was with Susan Brantus in Argentina. So that relationship had, or that friendship had continued.

No, I think they could separate it, but I think he did know that she was trouble. And Charles, I think it was just, Fergie has this great ability to manipulate people and to worm her way back and to reinvent herself. And she's done it three or four times in the States, and people fall for, it. And I think members of the Royal Family had fallen for it with, you know, time and time again. Wow. Wow. Wow. Why. It's just, it's such a soap opera. It is. It's just an extraordinary soap opera and it keeps people, I guess, amused. But it must be painful to be a member of the royal family and be living through this. Andrew, we're just going to take a quick break.

And we are back with Andrew Loney. So final question, Andrew. I mean, everybody says that the most popular member of the Royal Family is Kate, is Kate Middleman. or Princess Kate, Princess of Wales. How is her health? I mean, she looks painfully thin whenever you see her. But people clearly love her and she seems brilliant and has the sort of Princess Diana touch with the crowds. We recently saw her accepting flowers from some people that had been outside somewhere

where she'd been and she was so sweet with them and they'd obviously been waiting a long time. What do you know about her health and how she's feeling about being a member of the Monarchy. Yeah, I just don't know what the state of her health is. I mean, I do know that she is, as you say, the most popular member. They're placing all their hopes in her. She's carrying the whole thing at the moment. You know,

she, in some ways it needs a nice middle class girl to actually show how it's done properly. They're putting a lot of pressure on the children. They're being forced to do royal duties, I think much sooner than people realize, particularly George, because they want to show the sense of continuity that they're here to stay and because they are so popular.

But yeah, she gets it. And I think both she and William has said that service and duty is the root of all they're doing. The trope of the crown was between public duty and private pleasure. And people like Andrew and Fergie are in the private pleasure bit.

And, you know, William and Kater are in the public duty bit. So this is their sort of addition to say, look, you know, the Royal Family can survive, I think it's in good hands of the future. But as you say, we know the big unknown is her health. And clearly if she is as ill as some people say,

then that is a real problem for them. Wow. Well, Andrew, it's wonderful to have you in the studio. Our viewers and listeners love hearing from you. We've had huge numbers of comments. So promise me that you will keep us up to date with this extraordinary soap opera. and of course the minute you hear that Prince Andrew, or Andrew formerly known as Prince, as we should say,

hops on a plane to Bahrain, you must call us and we must get a full debrief. Would you a special Middle East and special? Exactly. Exactly right. I mean, King Juan Carlos is now living in Dubai, right? Because he helped himself to the royal purse and got hounded out. Exactly. I mean, the Crown Princess of Norway's son is on charges of rape. So, you know, things have changed. the royals are no longer above the law. And I think that's what the public want. They want

Andrew to be held to account. They don't want any more cover-ups. And that's why I think, you know, he will face charges. Well, and he'll face the new updated version of your book, Untitled. Well, I hope so. All right, Andrew, thank you very much for coming in. So I'm just always bowled over by the revelations that Andrew Loney has up his sleeve. And of course, during the first publication of his book, there were lots of things that he just couldn't say. Lawyers were on top of him. It felt just you couldn't say this stuff.

But now Prince Andrew is on the back foot. Now he's lost his title. Now he might be headed to Bahrain. People from the royal household, people from the FBI, people who've been investigating Andrew Mountbatten, Windsor over the last years, have come to. to him with all sorts of information. So I can't wait for the updated version of his book. As you heard, it's going to be called Untitled. And, well, more revelations to come.

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