The Daily Beast Podcast - Why Dems Finally Have Leverage Over Trump: Wolff

Episode Date: September 26, 2025

Michael Wolff, author of ‘All Or Nothing,’ joins the Beast’s Joanna Coles to parse the looming threat of a government shutdown. Wolff outlines how Democrats are in a position stop Trump’s dismantling of the government while Trump winds up to command attention and leverage chaos. From his relentless playbook of confrontation to the ripple effects of his threats on media and politics, they explore how Trump pressures leaders, exploits opportunities, and reshapes institutions. With behind-the-scenes insight into Congress, Chuck Schumer’s role, and the stakes for the country, this episode examines what Trump’s authoritarian zeal means for America’s future. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

That weird sense of going out in the street and everything is good, you can get your cappuccino and you can get your this, and everything seems in the moment normal. At the same time, you realize everything is changing. Every assumption about how this country functions is under attack. The idea of the government that you know that you have grown up on, Republicans or Democrats, it doesn't matter, all of us have grown up on is being dismantled.

That is it. And unless there's somebody who can express that, you know, we're just cooked. I'm Joanna Coles. And I'm Michael Wolfe. And where are we going? Deep, deep, deep inside Trump's head. Are you over your jet lag? Yeah.

You know, I'm at an age where I don't have to go anywhere and I still have jet lag. Okay. I thought you were going to say you're of an age where you've traveled so much. You're jet lagless? No, quite the opposite. Okay, so you're always suffering from jet lag, even the jitney into New York City. What can I say? Well, what you can say is what the hell is going on in America and are we going to have an operational government next week as we...

Well, let's, I mean, I think in this set of Trump chapters, they're all very short chapters because there are so many of them, the one that we're now looking at is a government shutdown. And we have looked at this before. As a matter of fact, I've been through in the Trump years, now quite a number of threats of government shutdowns, which tend not to happen. I always feel like it's a threat.

they hold it over each other and then somehow miraculously at the last minute they managed to agree on the budget. The last time this happened, which was, I believe, in March, the Democrats, principally Chuck Schumer, punted. And that was incredibly controversial because basically a good portion of the Democratic Party was saying, saying, look what's happening here. Look at this. This is what we're funding. We are funding. the dismantling of the government of of of democracy and and and then chuck schumer said well it will be worse if we if we if we if we don't fund it and it was also but it was also only two months into the trump regime right so you could argue that from the democrats point of view it was too early to start resisting well i don't i don't know i mean i think i think then it was i think then

there was a very clear rationale. Everybody saw what was what was happening. You know, this wasn't even two months in, even a week in, it was clear that something was going wrong here in a profound way. But anyway, they punted on that. Now there is next week, five days from now, there is another opportunity. Now, I think we have to say, what is that opportunity? Because the Democrats actually feel that it may not only may not be an opportunity, that it is a trap. And there are two... They feel it's a trap to go for the government shutdown. There was a government shutdown, which was somewhat more limited in 2018 going into 2019,

and I think it ran for almost a month. And that wasn't good for Trump. that actually just added to the whole sense of chaos in the first administration. Will he have learned from that? I vaguely remember that. I mean, in the chaos of it all and then the COVID, it's almost as if COVID drew a line across history, and it's so hard to remember what happened before that.

Do you think he's learned from that? Yes, that they will be blamed. And, I mean, there are sort of two notable examples. of what happens, what can happen in a government shutdown. So there's a government shutdown when, when, when, when Newt Gingrich ran the, um, ran Congress for the Republicans. Yes. And Clinton was, you know, he engineered a government shutdown, which was blamed on the

Republicans. I mean, completely backfired, totally. I mean, you know, it ruined his reputation, nudes, and it was a huge plus for the Democrats. So everybody is looking at this and saying, you know, this could backfire. The other notable event in a government shutdown was Monica Lewinsky. You will recall that the government was shut down, and then let's go over what happens when the government gets shut down. It means that everybody gets what they call furloughed, government workers, far and wide, furloughed. So that means they stay at home.

They don't come in. The government has money paid. Yes, and they're not allowed to come in. And they don't get paid. And they don't get paid, yes. I mean, it's kind of, you know, it can be devastating. I mean, these are people who need paychecks and have families, not to mention the services that they provide. Right.

I mean, the most basic government services will not. be available. Veterans, hospitals. What about air traffic control? Does that come under it? I don't know. I mean, there are certain things and there will be certain exceptions to, for critical, critical functions. I mean, they go out of their way trying to not to put people in literal danger. But nevertheless, it is a, it is, the government is not funded. There is no money. So the Monica Lewinsky issue is that during the government shutdown, she had achieved great access in the White House because she was an intern. And she had to do what she was doing what senior aides would otherwise have to do,

and which gave her access to direct access to the president. And the rest is history. The rest is history, although Monica has remade herself as a rather good executive producer. She was very good on impeachment, I thought, which was the Ryan Murphy show about what happened to her. And more recently, I interviewed her recently actually, for The Daily Beast podcast because she was doing the story of Amanda Knox, a twisted tale of Amanda Knox. A twisted tale. Anyway, let's just get back to because we don't. But so anyway, so this comes up five days from now.

The Democrats, it is within the Democrats, the Democrats have the leverage here. They can decide whether the government will be funded or not funded. Now, let's spell out part of the background here that the Democrats don't have much leverage in most instances now. So this is there. They're in the spotlight. This is an opportunity or it's a danger. And that's what they're trying to figure out right now. Who will eventually make the decision as to whether or not the Democrats in good conscience can agree to fund this government and keep it open?

Really kind of a singular person, Chuck Schumer. So the minority leader of the Senate, and he made the decision in March, and that cost him I think it cost him, he took a meaningful hit on that. Democrats think that he caved. And because of that, that in other things, he is facing some amount of opposition in New York. Chuck Schumer has been a senator for life. So I'm not sure if opposition actually is meaningful.

might be. And I mean, many, many things are going on in New York, including a mayor's race that no one expected. So I think he's scared, and that will influence what he does now. And from my point of view, it's a perfect opportunity for the Democrats to put a stake in the ground, to create an event that people can rally about for finally the Democrats to say no to Donald Trump. And let's understand where we are at this point. I don't think that there can be much, I don't think that there can be, much doubt. I'm trying to be careful on how I say this because I think that it is so critical. This is, we have moved into an area of politics that we have never been in before. And if in March we might have said, well, who knows where this is going to go seems bad.

It is bad now. Almost on every level. I mean, from Kimmel last week, to Charlie Kirk and then Trump announcing that he is going to use this to go after anybody who says things that he doesn't like. I mean, there is the pretense. Every day the pretense is discarded. Right, really using the DOJ to go after people. It becomes clearer and clearer and clearer what is happening, what he is. willing to do and he is willing basically to do anything. Why is he willing to do anything because

no one stops him? Right. There is literally nobody knows how to stop him. Nobody knows how to play Trump's game. Nobody and everybody is frightened. What will he do? I mean, we saw the Kimmel thing. So let's unpack the Kimmel as a sort of, did ABC make the right decision by deciding to reinstate Jimmy Kimmel on Tuesday night? Well, I'm sure, I mean, reinstatement is better than, better than not. But from the, from the Disney ABC point of view, it's a colossal mess. Go on. I mean, it's a, it's a calamity.

They folded. I mean, Trump threatened, you know, the FCC commissioner. Brendan Carr threatened. And they immediately folded. immediately. I mean, they just ran for the hills. No, it was incredible. There was a studio audience in the theater waiting for the show to begin when they suddenly were told, no, you have to go home. It's being suspended indefinitely. Right. So now they're, now they've, they've capitulated on that. We were, we're wrong

or whatever rationale they come up for with putting Kimmel back on the air. But, but I mean, clearly, it's a cock up. It's a corporate cock up of immense proportions. I think Bob Iger, the CEO, chairman of Disney will lose his job. I think the head of ABC, Dana Waldron, will lose her job. I think the ripple effect of this is going to be huge. And it's relevant for where we are now, because one of the questions that keeps coming up is, what do you do about this, about Trump? How do you push back? How do you stop?

Where is the opposition? And we certainly haven't seen it. Now, we've suddenly, the Kimmel thing, you know, it's essentially united the entire entertainment community. and Disney and ABC had no alternative. Well, it's even brought in unexpected voices from the right, like Ted Cruz, who said this is a rod for our own backs. Democrats will be able to use this against us if we pursue this.

Exactly. Now, I mean, you have to go back and say, I mean, this was a real, what were they thinking moment? And I can't imagine, except that they were thinking, we don't know what to do about Donald Trump. Everybody and everybody, we've seen the technology people in the White House. We've seen every other media company

that has faced Trump capitulate. And I think Bob Eiger said, what can we do? Well, and he underestimated the blowback, right? He underestimated people canceling their Hulu and Disney Plus subscriptions. He underestimated how popular Jimmy Kimmel is, not even necessarily with an audience on ABC at this point, because legacy media, broadcasting media is dying. But Jimmy Kimmel lives in L.A.

He hangs out with L.A. L.A. lists as 400 celebrities signed a petition in favor of him. And a word from our sponsors. And we're back and just let's remind people exactly where we are, Michael, where are we? We are inside Donald Trump's head. I think what may be underestimated here is the desire for there to be pushback against Donald Trump. And I don't think that that just exists in the entertainment community. I think that this exists across the country, and no one has figured out how to express this or harness this or organize it, which brings us back, I think, to the shutdown.

So that the shutdown, and this is a – it's a complicated thing because the Democrats have to have a clear rationale for the shutdown, down because you're essentially saying to the American people, we're going to cause you grief. Right. So there has to be a rationale for that. But at the same time, this is backbone, which the American people who are opposed to Donald Trump, and that's at least half of the country, maybe a little more, have not seen. So it's a kind of thing. And I think it's a moment in which,

which people can say, okay, yes, this isn't, we're not all just victims of this. We're not all just bystanders to whatever this thing is that's happening. There is a mechanism here for it to protest. But then you have to make that happen. And the problem is, you know, the message now is about, you know, it's about health care, you know, we're not going to fund the government unless the Trump administration agrees to reinstate the following issues, which seems to me, sure, but it also seems to me bureaucratic. And it's not the rallying message. And another problem there is that this is sort of Chuck Schumer is at the middle of this,

and he's not a rallying guy. Well, I was just going to ask you, is this Chuck Schumer's moment, is he the man for the task? I'd say probably not. I mean, this is never what he's, this isn't what he's ever done. He's a backroom guy, right? He's a legislator. I mean, I think he's fairly good at his job. He's a bureaucrat.

I mean, that's part of the crisis for the Democrats is that they have no. Nobody who can step forward, nobody who can be a symbol of resistance, nobody who is credible in that role, nobody who enjoys that role. Right, because we've got governors who've made noise on social media. You've got J.B. Pritzker in Chicago who's been trying to, you know, front up to Trump and say, we don't want your people here. You've got Governor Newsome, you've got Wes Moore, you've got people who've protested, him sending troops in. But this is different because it's Congress. Yeah.

And we're just starting to see those Democrats in state houses step forward. And we don't really know if any of them has the moxie yet or anyone who can who can articulate this in such a way that people say yes. Yes, close down the government, shut the VA hospital. But in terms of Congress, nobody. I mean, these are Democrats who have been in positions of power, many of them, for a very long time. They actually come out of a time or at least the expectations of time around the corner when they're in charge. And that's what they do, and that the idea that now is a different time and demands different, different temperament is, you know, I think still has not kind of gotten through here.

I mean, we need a change of a complete cast member change. Well, and a change of approach. Yeah, I mean, but what we need is not only a change of approach, but we need a change of, I mean, people who can do this, people who are up for this. I mean, Chuck Schumer is, you know, fine, I mean, he's been in this job a long time. I'm sure he does it, he does it relatively well. But in terms of someone who is effectively being asked to take an existential position, if, you know, we are going to die if somebody doesn't figure this out. I mean, and I think this is still this moment in which all of these people who have been in power and around power for a long time have not quite come to terms with the fact that this is the life they know is in the process of ending.

And if there is not a fight now, it will end. It will end very soon. It is ending. Well, Hakeem Jeffries, Minority Head of Congress, House of Representatives, and Chuck Schumer, as you say, minority leader of the Senate, have both asked for a meeting with Trump. On Tuesday, we heard that he'd said no to that. And also, they don't...

That's, by the way, just the bullshit thing. Right. They're just setting up... Setting the scene for it. Setting up the rationale here, which is fine. But they always do this, and then they capitulate. Well, and he's a man who likes a fight. They don't want the conflict. He wants the conflict. Let's just game this out in terms of there is a government shutdown. It's led by the Democrats. How does Trump win this?

You know, this is one in the message. In other words, the Democrats have to be clear enough and concise enough. smart enough to deliver a message that this is worth it. And how do they do that? Because in the election, we saw that the idea that democracy is in peril didn't play with people. They weren't concerned about that. Well, the election was an eon ago. Okay.

So you think enough people now are like, and this isn't good. Certainly Donald Trump is not doing well in the polls. Yeah. No, this isn't, I mean, I think that what has to happen, of all is that the Democrats have to show a level of a level of commitment, a level of crisis. They have to recognize what's going. They have to express what's going on. And they have to recognize what's going on. I mean, if this is, if there, if there is not a way found to oppose Donald Trump, the entire, the entire thing is over. So what, I mean, we saw, I mean, this is a

critical, critical, critical moment. I mean, and, you know, it's that weird sense of going out in the street and everything is good and you can get a cup. You can get your cappuccino and you can get your this and everything seems in the moment normal at the same time you realize everything is changing. Every assumption about how this country functions is under attack. So what's the learning from the U-turn at ABC from Bob Iger pulling Jimmy Kimmel off the air, suspended indefinitely, to them reinstating him on Tuesday? What is the learning?

Well, I mean, I think and would hope that the learning, the learning is that there is that people are angry and they're not going to take it anymore. And what's going on in here? What is going on in Trump's head as he's thinking about this? Does he want to force the shutdown? Yeah, no, and that's the thing. And that's what the Democrats are worried about. You know, I mean, he's ready to go to battle. I mean, that's why he's so good at this.

They cower, he charges. They cower, he charges. Do you think that's a deterrent to Trump? or do you think he's got so much momentum for his changes now? He's just railroading through everybody. I think he's going to railroad ahead. I mean, I think that the Democrats will, I think there's a very good chance they'll capitulate.

Well, we'll see. We'll be back on the day of the potential shutdown. What better time. We'll be spending the weekend observing. And also there was, I think the Democrats have probably all at this point read, read Ezra Klein's piece in the New York Times or listened to his podcast, which came out two weeks ago discussing this very thing. And I heard it echoed in my circle of Democratic friends. Well, have you read Ezra Klein talking about you need to take this seriously, the threat of a shutdown,

you need to think about how you could use it for Democrats? Can you actually, in all good conscience, fund this government given what they're doing? And there was someone else's, alas, I don't remember who, that argued just recently yesterday or the day before, that this should not be about the things that they have now itemized health care, et cetera, that this should specifically be about tariffs. I mean, to me, that's the same issue, tariffs, health care. It avoids having to come to terms in which the Democrats. always do with with a real expression of what's going on here. Let's have a word from our sponsors,

Joanna. It's time. And always thrilled to hear from our sponsors. What are we back discussing? What are we back discussing? Government shutdown. Oh, the government shutdown. You've seen them motivated by, and you've seen regular people motivated by what happened to Jimmy Kimmel, even people who don't find Jimmy Kimmel very funny, knew that this was a moment, that it's the first amendment for a reason. And no one wants to be told. Exactly.

So I think the idea that you have to run from these broader issues, that the world as we know it is breaking. And unless someone steps forward and starts to, starts to do things, throw bodies into this, into the, you know, before the on the on rush of machines, we are going to be in trouble here. There is not going to be any going back. Well, and I think one of the reasons that people were fed up with the Democrats was cancel culture, right? The fact that you couldn't, people felt that they couldn't say what they wanted to say, that common sense speech was no longer allowed. The Democrats have become too

woke. And now you have the opposite of that. Trump saying he's coming after people. J.D. Vance saying, if you say something disrespectful about Charlie Kirk, we are coming after you. And guess what? You should call someone's boss if you see someone else doing it. If you have a friend saying this, call their boss. But it's not just that. It's not just that. It is the literal dismantling of institutions, the literal dismantling of any of the procedures that would have stymied this, the idea of checks and balances, the idea of the government that you know that you have grown up on, Republicans or Democrats, it doesn't matter, all of us have grown up on, is being dismantled. That is it. And unless there's somebody who can express,

that. You know, we're just cooked. And, you know, and I have, I have gone into this always as a basic optimist. You know, Donald Trump is Donald Trump, but he's not going to last forever. And, you know, somehow you just have to hold your breath. Well, I am, I don't think that that's true anymore. Donald Trump turns out and I am, no one is more surprised. than I am to be incredibly effective. Well, and a couple of podcasts ago, you talked about what it was like being in his Hollywood house after you'd run into him in Jimmy Kimmel's green room.

You'd gone back to Donald Trump's house in Beverly Hills, opposite the Beverly Hills Hotel. He'd thrown open his enormous refrigerator door to display his many, many pots of ice cream. And the two of you had sat... Row after row of hog and daws, vanilla. It's so strange to me that, his ice cream fridge, basically, and you'd sat there on the sofa with your long spoons, and you were thinking this is just hilarious, it's going to make a great piece. And here we are 10 years later, as he dismantles everything we've taken to represent America.

So really what the Democrats and everyone else has to begin to think about is how do you oppose this? I mean, how do you say no? What do you do? I mean, I think you shut down the government, obviously, because that's the opportunity. Because the government is no longer working for you. That you've been there. Anything that you can do that can command attention,

just play a Trump's way, and give you an opportunity to platform a message, take it, use it. you know beyond that well i don't know i mean it's something that we should be we should discuss here because everyone should be discussing it discussing it i don't know what what is what is required a 10 million person march on washington possibly chuck schumer if you're watching you need to give michael wolf a call he's got many ideas for you uh well we'll be back on tuesday maybe principally that chuck schumer should

step aside step aside sir but He can't do that between now and Tuesday. But what he could do is say, I'm not running again. I'm going to make this my stand. Oh, Michael, when if you ever known a white man to voluntarily give up power, that just doesn't happen. It doesn't happen with, you know, older white women anymore now either. I'm just going to say, do women give it?

Does anyone give up power? No, it's just women have less power to give up. But I don't see Chuck Schumer between now and Tuesday giving up power. There were a few people. Jerry Nadler has agreed not to run again. I mean, there are definitely people around the country. And also, I mean, this is a major issue. This is a structural issue with the Democratic Party. These people are very old. Chuck Schumer is not the oldest, but he's certainly not the youngest. Well, Chuck Grassley, who's a Republican, is 90, who is 89. Yeah, no, no. I mean, this is, I mean, throughout Congress, but I think one of the Democrats' problems is specific.

I mean, the Republicans at this point have no problems. The Democrats is that, you know, these guys have been hanging around for a long time, and they're not ready to deal with a profound change of circumstances. And no one would be. I mean, if you've had the job for a long time and suddenly the world changes. You're just doing your job like you've always done it. Well, you've managed. You've managed to segue from writing books to going on,

social media. Jesus. Before we go, we've got many, many comments from people. I'm going to ask you a couple of questions. Do you think it's possible that Mrs. Trump and her son moved back into the White House because they know the felon, i.e., I think they mean Donald Trump, is dangerously ill, and they want to be there if something goes wrong medically. We haven't even talked about the symptoms he displays of all manner of things.

Yeah, well, first thing, I don't think that his wife has not moved back. So Barron's moved without his mom. Yes. One person is saying they're casting their vote. Janet Mann, Janet Mann, J-A-N-A-T-Mann, I think, is casting her vote or his vote for a special episode on what Michael has to say about Stephen Miller, which we do need to do. We definitely, maybe we'll do that next week.

And we also wanted to do a special episode on Pido's, too, and the whole Pido culture. Okay. Okay, which I think we should do. Should any president be removed from office if there is a suspicion of dementia? And that's someone from U of AZ. I'm assuming that's University of Arizona, CAT, 81. Suspicion of dementia. Well, that's because we had Dr. John Gartner at the weekend who diagnosed

Nosed Trump with so many medical terms. I got in a bit of a fluster, but I was sort of convinced by it, the grandiosity, the slow blood pumping around the body. Yeah, well, this is sort of what elections are for. In other words, in a democracy, you should be able to elect someone with dementia.

In a democracy, you should be able to elect someone with dementia. How very depressing. It's a very down a note. to end on, I'm not going to end on a down-a-note, I'm going to tell you that we are going to get some of these mugs in, and we're going to send them to people for the best comments. We're not going to sell them. We're not going

to do merch, but we are going to get t-shirts and mugs for people. That's an op-beat. And then when there's a knock on the door, you hide them at the back of your cupboard, right? Or you smash them into pieces. A knock on the door. A knock on the door, Michael Wolfe.

If there's a knock on... They knock. No, they don't know. They bang. They're bang. All right. Well. They have those things. Oh, God. This is just all so depressing.

Brick at the now. Battering rums. Battering, right. I think that's just in law and order. You know? Isn't that just in police movies? No, no.

No. It's not. Okay. All right. This conversation is taking a very deep term for the worst. All right. We'll be back on Tuesday. Michael.

Joella. And. That's it then for this week. Where are we going? Where are we going next Tuesday? Inside Trump's head on the eve. Actually, on the day of the shutdown, we'll see. Are they going to shut down? Are they not going to shut down? Actually, that will go into, we'll be in the afternoon and they will go right up until midnight on that. To shut down or not to shut down. If you have been, thank you for joining us, don't forget, join the Daily Beast community. can join under this YouTube. Am I supposed to say something? I think so.

Inside Trump's head. I'm not quite sure. Inside Trump's head. I'm feeling giddy with depression at this point. Don't forget to leave us a comment on YouTube. Please subscribe. We're independent media and we need your support. What else happened to I said?

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She's living here. Oh, she's living in New York. Okay. Good for her. We want to reference her and say, as she would have us say, be beast. And we want to thank our production team. Devin Rodgerino, Anna Von Erson, and our editor, Jesse Millwood. And a special shout out to our Be Beast tier of members, Karen White.

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