The Daily Beast Podcast - Why Mastermind Ghislaine Was Worse Than Epstein

Episode Date: July 24, 2025

Investigative reporter Tara Palmeri joins Joanna Coles to dig into the twisted saga of Ghislaine Maxwell—her crimes, her secrets, and why the Trump's Justice Department is knocking at her door. As Maxwell serves 20 years in a Florida prison, new signs point to a potential deal with Trump-era officials. Why now—and what does she know? Palmeri shares chilling victim accounts, unsealed evidence Maxwell wants buried, and fresh questions about whether or not she could still reveal long held details to authorities. From Prince Andrew to Alan Dershowitz, the web of powerful men around Maxwell remains tangled. And around MAGA world, a shocking new chant is gaining steam: “Free Ghislaine.” Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We should as Americans demand that because we want to know what's going on. Are they having a secret deal with the woman who was grooming children for Jeffrey Epstein? I'm Joanna Coles. I'm the chief content officer of The Daily Beast. I'm back from my vacation. Thank you to Hugh Doherty for holding the fort so ably. And thank you for your comments on YouTube noticing my absence. I appreciate it. I come back to find a White House roiling in panic with the Jeffrey Epstein story that simply will not. go away. The MAGA base is riled up and who better to talk to today than Tara Parmary, an expert on Gillen Maxwell because in an extraordinary development, Todd Blanche, the deputy

attorney general, has said he's going down to interview Gillen Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein's literal partner in crime at her Florida jail. Now, Gillen, you may remember, was found guilty of sex trafficking in June of 2020 and sentenced to 20. years in jail. So the question is, what does Gillen have that the victims haven't already given up? Why is Todd Blanche going to see her? And what does Tara, who's been talking a lot to the women involved in this story, what does Tara actually think is going on here? So we are here with Tara Parmary, who knows more about Gillen Maxwell than I'm sure she ever wanted to. Tara, let's start at the beginning. As we

speak, Gillen is in a Florida jail. In 2022, she was sentenced to 240 months in jail, so 20 years in jail for sex trafficking. She's appealed. Last November, her appeal was turned down. And then this week, she gets the most extraordinary news that Todd Blanche, the deputy AG, is going to see her. So talk us through what it's like in the prison and what we think the conversation is going to be about. Well, according to her family, she's treated terribly, right? They're really fighting for her conditions in the prison to be better. They say, oh, she can't sleep. The light is shown in her eyes.

She's treated poorly. And, you know, they've long been saying it's been unjust, that she's been a victim the entire time, that she's been innocent. and that's why she refused to testify in her own case. She's not exactly the most sympathetic character. Why would anybody who's innocent refuse to testify in their own case? Well, I don't think she would do well on cross-examination. Number one, number two, I don't think the jury would be sympathetic to her.

She's a woman who is obviously comes from a high class. She's, you know, Oxford educated in multiple passports, lived a high-flying lifestyle. and the fact that she was even spending time with these young girls who did testify is just plain creepy and weird. And it's hard to explain why she has a relationship with children outside of ones that are related to her, right? The jury found no question about it that she was his literally partnering crime. Yes. And she assaulted a lot of the girls. I mean, she did that herself. She was with him sexually assaulting them on top of grooming them.

And this is the part of the story. that I find to be extremely frustrating, because I'm sure you see this, too, Joanna, on online. People are saying she's a martyr. She's being persecuted just because she's a woman. But when I talk to a lot of the victims of Jeffrey Epstein, so many of them are actually even more angry at Glenn Maxwell than they are at Jeffrey because they feel that she used the fact that she was a woman to lure them in. Because little girls don't just show up on a 50-year-old man's doorstep.

They were brought in by a woman who not only, was posh, well, educated, elegant, spoke well, showed interest in them, wanted to show mentorship, promised them that she could fulfill their dreams. I mean, one of the girls was at interlocking. I mean, they were trying to become models and singers and actresses, and they were young girls who believed that the world was in front of them, and Glenn Maxwell was this well-connected person who could do anything to make their dreams come true. And instead, she trapped them. She brought them over to Epstein. And I think it's sort of lost in this whole story that this entire massive sex trafficking

operation that expanded to as many as a thousand victims was not possible without her at the top of the pyramid. Now, there were other recruiters below her. But if I look at this, I look at it as a pyramid and Glenn Maxwell is at the top. She was running the operation. This was a, this was a criminal operation. And I want to read actually what the U.S. Jenny General for the Southern District of New York, Damien Williams said when she was sentenced. Today's sentence holds Gillen, Maxwell accountable for perpetrating heinous crimes against children.

This sentence sends a strong message that no one is above the law and it is never too late for justice. And then he goes on to express his gratitude that the victims came forward and talked about what were clearly extremely disturbing crimes. This was not a crime of passion. It was well-thought-out, premeditated ways of enticing and cajoling young women into a web, which they were then unable to get themselves out of. Absolutely. And the way that she openly bragged to people about Jeffrey's 24-hour erections and his need for multiple orgasms per day, three per day, and that she was out there, you know, she would get in her car. Maria Farmer, I spoke to yesterday. And she was recalling to me how she would get in the car with Gilles,

and Gilles Gailen had this cute little Yorkshire Terrier, Max, right? It makes sense, right? And they would drive around and they would see beautiful girls, and they would say to them, you're so gorgeous, you need to be a Victoria's Secret model. I mean, who's not going to be enchanted by that? And she's in her Ralph Lauren, and she's being driven around. And she's like, please come to this, to my townhouse. You know, I'm friends with the founder of Victoria's Secret.

But before that, in the morning, Maria remembers her screaming, I need to get the new Biles. I need to get the new Biles. I mean, this was a thing that she did every single day. This was what she picked up Virginia Roberts Chufre on the property at Mar-a-Lago. She went there, found her, Juan Alessie, who was the houseman who I interviewed, recalled being in the car, sweating, waiting for a Golan to go out there, pick this girl out, bring her, and make sure she gets back to the house by the evening. she would boast that she could introduce them to the founder of Victoria's Secret, Les Wexner, which is true because they were friends, and that they just had to go for an audition at Jeffrey Epstein's house in the Upper East Side.

And these girls would come and they would meet and then leave hysterical. And many of them, obviously, never to come back. Some sadly did. But there was a whole mental manipulation in it all as well. I mean, Glenn Maxwell was critical to getting these girls in the door. Jeffrey Epstein couldn't walk around a park and go to young girls and say, do you want to be a model? Of course not. That would be creepy.

The girls would think, oh, I'm not going to do that. She gave him a cover. It reminds me actually of a terrible mass murder in the UK called Fred West, who used his wife, Rosemary. They would cruise around in a car, look for young women, often standing at bus stops. And she would lean out of the window and say, oh, can we give you a lift? And somehow people will be reassured that because she was a woman, the woman, the way. would be no danger here. And of course, the two of them were terrible sadists and murdered a whole host of young women. Absolutely. I mean, her class, her wealth, her, just everything about her, her,

connections. And with Virginia Joufrey, it was Golan Maxwell driving around the car with a houseman. She sees Virginia Jufri at Marlago, walks up to her. Virginia says, I want to be a massage therapist. Galen says, I can make your dreams come true. I'll get you massage therapy. Come to Jeffreys. house will teach you how to give massages. What happens? She goes into the home and she's assaulted not just by Jeffrey Epstein, but by Galen as well. I think a lot of people forget that Galen also sexually assaulted these girls. Yeah, she was also a sexual predator. And of course, she was, I mean, what's so fascinating about her is she was well connected that she could introduce people to Prince Andrew, who of course has been felled by this story too. His mother ended up writing a check for

12 million pounds to get this case sort of off his back. So let's talk a little bit more about how did Gillesne meet Jeffrey Epstein and how did she become a fixture on the sort of New York Party circuit? That's a good question. So it's still unclear, to be clear. We have never gotten down to the bottom of how they met. But we do know that Robert Maxwell, while he was still lie, knew Jeffrey Epstein. There's a picture of them together in the Plaza Hotel during Robert Maxwell's, when Robert Maxwell was still alive. Just for some background, Robert Maxwell was a famous press baron. He owned the Daily Mirror, MTV Europe, the New York Daily News. He was a larger-than-life character. I mean, you could compare him to maybe a Roper Mardock. I mean,

he thought that Rupert Murdoch was his rival, right? He was kind of like a Logan Roy character from succession, came from nothing from a shuttle in Central Europe. And he rose up from nothing. And he wanted to prove himself. He was also friends with Donald Trump, by the way. And I remember during my reporting on the podcast Power, the Maxwell's, Gelen said to her father, Daddy, can I go to Donald Trump and try to sell him one of my corporate gifts?

Because that was her, like, fake job. And he said, what the F would Donald Trump want one of your corporate gifts? But it was very clear. that they all spent time together. When Robert Maxwell would come to New York because he owned the New York Daily News, he would spend time on his yacht on the Hudson and Donald Trump would go there. And it all seemed like they were kind of spiraling in the same circles. What we do know, though, is that when Robert Maxwell died shortly after,

Glenn Maxwell ended up in New York City. And that was where she started her life after living in London as a socialite. And we know that she did not. live in poverty, even though her father had robbed the pensioners at the daily mirror. I mean, that's part of this. Right. It's important to remind people who answers on top of the story as perhaps you are that her father turned out to be an extraordinary conman.

Extraordinary conman. I mean, and hiding in plain sight, hiding in plain sight, a bit like Jeffrey Epstein, surrounded by very influential, important people who didn't understand, or at least didn't appear to understand that he was robbing the pension fund. of the newspaper group, the mirror group, and stole half a billion pounds. And this was 25 years ago. So an extraordinary amount of money. And the way he died is very similar.

Died in question. Like Jeffrey Epstein, people wondered, was he killed? Or did he kill himself? Did he kill himself because the jig was up and everyone knew that the pensions were being stolen? Or did he die off the side of his yacht Lady Galen that she named after his favorite daughter? by the way. He loved Glenn. We can go into that too, but, you know, there were a lot of questions. Glenn did not want to believe that her father committed suicide. In fact, she said that he was killed because of the way his body was found and that there wasn't water found in the lungs. She did not believe that her father committed suicide. And for the same reasons that, like, they thought that he didn't, he believed he was above the law. He wasn't the type of person who would commit suicide. And I think they believe that he would, if, if he was, I don't know, if he was prosecuted, he would probably, he'd probably win or there was just she said on the record in an interview with Hello magazine, he was murdered. And that was what

she believed. And so this is daddy's little girl. He had this affection for Golan. He thought that she looked more like him than the others. He literally said it. She did look like. Yeah, exactly. And she said, he said, he had, I think he had eight. or nine children. And he said, none of my children, not even his wife would get anything, none of his money, only Golan and the youngest boy, Ian, because Ian was like him and Golan was his friend. And even in pictures, you could see that he was like proud to have Gellon on his arm, but not his wife, Betty. It's like he admired her in this is very weird. And not dissimilar to Donald Trump in the sense that he sort of leaned in.

to Ivanka and her hotness, as he referred to it. And of course, Ian has very much been fighting for Gillen's release from jail. So just take us to, because I want to come back to more of her background too, but just take us to where it stands legally at the moment. The Deputy Attorney General, Toblant, as we mentioned earlier, is going to see her. She yesterday, or through a connection, let it be known, she doesn't want the documents unsealed, right? Presumably, because she's in them and not favorably. But what did you make of that? And what Pam Gillen possibly have to say?

And also, how is it possible that the Justice Department hasn't already spoken to her? Right. So, like you said. Lots of questions then. Yeah, let's start from the grand jury testimony, why she wouldn't want it out there. For the reason that you stated, it's not going to make her look good. And any shred of martyrdom that's out there, any shred of sympathy. any shred of sympathy that people have saying,

oh, the only person who's been prosecuted is a woman and all these Johns are out there. It's unfair. I think that would be thrown out the window when you actually understand the gravity of her crimes and you see the witness testimony of what these girls have gone through these survivors. So I could understand that. I don't think it helps her case in the public eye.

And now Todd Blanche going to meet with her now. And also presumably it would make it much more difficult for Donald Trump to pardon her. Oh. Even Donald Trump would find that hard to pardon. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's repulsive. It really is.

And that's why I don't understand this whole free Gellane movement. It really, it really bothers me. It really bothers the victims, too. And then the whole idea of why hasn't she spoken to the prosecutors yet, right? Well, I've always believed that Golan Maxwell is, like, extremely shrewd, right? And her power was in holding on to these secrets and that she would figure out a time and the right moment, perhaps politically, to use that to commute her sentence. I don't think that she ever thought she would serve 20-year sentence.

And she can't be that shrewd because, first of all, she was found hiding in New Hampshire with silver foil like bacon. That is true. I was like, I mean, what world? That's such a conspiracy theory that somehow putting Baker foil around your phone will keep the FBI away. Why did it take them so long to find her at the same time? I mean, that's a very good point. Maybe it turns out to be more effective than we realized.

And she was not. He was hiding in Glantzic. Do you remember, like, she had a shake shack in California? Is that her in France? It was a long, like, where in the world is Gillesne Maxwell for parts and months and months? But I assumed, I think I assumed like other people, it was because she was actually talking and trying to help the DOJ with their inquiries. But that's presumably wrong.

I think, I mean, I don't have the answer to. that I also don't understand why they think that Golan Maxwell would be so useful when so many of the victims have their own John lists and they can tell you stories themselves. Why not just go to the victims? Why do you have to go to Golan Maxwell? I mean, if you want to go through the financial crimes, why not look at the transactions? I mean, she can be helpful to a certain point, but is she really a reliable witness? I mean, she's a criminal. So what do we think Todd Blanche is actually going to ask her? The truth is, Joanna, we will never know. and we don't know if there's going to be, if he's going to ask questions or if he's going to try to strike a deal with her.

Or maybe get some information. Say this is what Golan Maxwell told us. But, you know, some sort of wink, wink, nod, nod. She doesn't talk about Trump. It's understood that if they use her as some sort of witness in a case that she'll avoid the third rail,

what does that mean for her future? Does she exonerate him? him. Yeah, does she exonerate Trump and seem like the kind of witness that they could put forward to show that the president was not involved? And then does that somehow lead to leniency, a commuted sentence, pardoning? I think it's worth it. I'm sure Trump at this point wants to know what could she say. And is it, you know, she would know better than anyone. besides the girls who have come forward, I think they're probably curious as to whether she's willing to talk and what she would say. That would be my thinking. There's a deal.

You don't talk to the, you don't talk to the feds. Like, you don't talk unless you are going to get something out of it. And that's why I think she's been holding on to this for so long. Tara, hold on a moment. We just need to take a break for ads. We love our advertisers, but we also love this conversation with Tara Parmary.

Why wouldn't she have talked before? especially when she got a 20-year sentence. I mean, she's... She's been on appeal process for a while, maybe that. Okay, so you think that because she had to go through the appeal process, she didn't... But I'm very surprised that initially she didn't want to try and strike a deal when she was arrested initially. I think if you give up all of the goods initially, maybe... I mean, listen, I'm not an expert on criminal defense or how...

how you would think as a defendant. But I would think that if you have really valuable information, you would probably want to hold onto it for as long as you can and then wait for the right moment to strike it. But I don't know that her information is anything different than what would be in the files. Todd Blanche wants to know what she's willing to say about the third rail. And that's Donald Trump.

Right? Why wouldn't she have said this earlier? Well, if she talks about him, she'll never get a pardon from him. But she was sentenced in 2022 before he was reelected, and at a time when no one imagined, he would be reelected. It's true. Wouldn't the time to have wanted to do a plea deal be three years ago? I don't understand why she would be sitting on this information. The woman is 63.

sentenced to 20 years in jail, she'll be there until she's 80. Why on earth wouldn't she have come forward if she has any valuable information earlier? Do you think that she really thinks she's going to spend 20 years in prison? I don't think she does. Well, I would have thought that any day in jail for someone like Gillen Maxwell who grew up with extraordinary wealth and privilege and we know, you know, at one point lived with Jeffrey Epstein in the largest private house in Manhattan. I would imagine that every day in jail for Gillesne Maxwell is a day too many and that you would bargain everything you have and every scrap of knowledge you have about anybody to get the hell out. I would agree with you, but then again, look at what just presented itself to her.

You've got a president who wants the story to go away, does not want his own name to be laundered through it, and here she is presenting an opportunity to speak, but if she says the right things to possibly get a deal. leniency, clemency, a pardon. It's almost as if she could have like seen this as if she predicted that there would be an opportunity at some point for her to use her cards. I think her power was always in the secrets in keeping those secrets and she knew that. It's an absolutely crazy story.

So we've got Mike Johnson having dispatched the house early for refus. You imagine any other industry where they go, oh, you know what? we've decided everybody can leave early. Go off on holiday early this year. I'm sure that's going to make people frustrated about politicians even more. But we've got various people, James Comer, ahead of the Oversight Committee, has said that they're not prepared to offer her a reduction in sentence. But if she has information, they want to hear it.

Do we think that that's going to come to fruition? I mean, Alan Dershowitz is out there saying she's going to get some sort of deal, essentially, right? Alan Dershowitz was Jeffrey Epstein's lawyer. Alan Dershwishwish was close with the Trump administration. Is Alan Dershwitz just talking because Alan Dershowitz does this when news comes out and he wants to insert himself into the news cycle? Well, he was also accused of having slept with underage women, right? Something that he is furiously denied.

Exactly. And I just don't think she would talk without getting something in an exchange for it. And so extraordinary story. It is. I'm almost certain that she will not speak unless she knows she's getting some sort of clemency, leniency, whether you see it now or you see it in two years from now or her sentence is commuted or she's pardoned at the end of Trump's term. There's no way. What I would demand is to see the transcript of the conversation between Todd Blanche and Golan Maxwell. I mean, we should as Americans demand that because we want to know what's going on.

is this is a secret deal. Are they having a secret deal with the woman who was grooming children for Jeffrey Epstein? So that's your question. Is Todd Blanche offering Gillen Maxwell a secret deal? Yes. I mean, that is my question. Why else are you meeting with her? You have evidence.

You have evidence from victims. Right. What more do you need much evidence? Right. What more do you need? Tara, what does the mega base think about Gillem? It's really mixed, actually. Some of them feel bad for her.

I don't understand this. And it's led by people like Jessica Reed Krause. They had these shirts, say, Free Golan. There are others that say this is misogyny and sexism. And I agree that in this world, we have a ton of misogyny and sexism, but not in this case of Gellon Maxwell. She did deserve to be imprisoned. And there are Johns that deserve to be imprisoned as well, and they deserve cases against them. But to think that, oh, you know, she's somehow a martyr in this.

There are no martyrs in the Jeffrey Epstein story. The only martyrs are the victims. So is it possible that Trump is, that Donald Trump is concerned about other people coming out here, other names coming out? Is he protecting other people? I mean, I've seen a list of names. that Virginia Joufrey has been trafficked to. She showed me that list. Maybe they were in some way connected to Donald Trump.

Nothing was like that clear to me. A lot of those names are not household names that people would know, but they're high net worth, powerful people. A lot of them are dead. Gilles Gillesne met Jeffrey Epstein, probably through her father. She was hanging out in high society, so-called high society, in Manhattan. Why did people find her so compelling?

Well, she had this personality and this sort of, she was beguiling, you could say. She was a little quirky. She was really connected. In fact, someone described her as almost being like a ballerina, the way she worked a room, and she would, you know, flirt with men, and she would, she just had this kind of confidence about her

that she was larger than life. She was a bit like Robert Maxwell, her father. And she was just seen as a highly connected woman coming from an upper class. She was friends with princes. I mean, she was friends. Her father owned newspapers. She was a posh, it girl. People wanted to be around her.

Oh, and she flew around on private jets, and she could actually fly helicopters and jump out of them, and she went on to private islands, and she could give people money and for philanthropy. And there was just so many. reasons why Golan Maxwell was considered, you know, and a person that people wanted to rub shoulders with. Tara, hold on a moment. We just need to take a break for ads. We love our advertisers, but we're coming back to a conversation with Tara Palmary. So she was at the center of things.

She had access to the largest so-called private house in Manhattan where she would throw parties, where Jeffrey Epstein had interesting guests, where she could bring. Prince Andrew and people were impressed to be adjacent to British royalty. And yet the whole time she was essentially raping children. Yeah. Yes, during the day, for sure. That was what she was doing. And showing up at, you know, book parties or having events.

I mean, they literally had a 40th birthday party for Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, we talk about the 50th birthday card, right, from Donald Trump. That was very creepy. suggesting that they were in on each other's secret. But on the 40th birthday party, equally depraved event. So her friend Christopher Mason, who I interviewed, said that Glenn asked him to write a song and then sing it for Jeffrey Epstein before the crowd at his 40th birthday at their townhouse. And the song, Glenn asked for it.

Glenn asked that the song include his 24-hour erections and his love of schoolgirls. And it was sung. all these people. And it was just, this is with Bacchanal's types of crimes hiding in plain sight. Right. And this was the Bacchanal style that she wanted. She wanted everyone to think it's a laugh and these girls are party favors and

we're all in on it. It's just fun. Don't worry. And that's how she let people, she got, she actually groomed the elites in some ways because she got them to groomed for guests. Yeah. The guests to drop their guard. Yeah, to feel comfortable. To feel like

this is just a safe space and oh, that's normal if everyone's laughing. And I mean, she would literally describe the girls as tissues. She said, you can throw them away. I mean, this is a woman who really dehumanized these children. I mean, her father was not a great guy either. He was disgusting. And he was a famous bully.

I had various friends that worked for him. And I think we said on the last time you were on the podcast, he used to interview people in his car on a way to his house from London and then drop people at the side of the road. And he used to pee off the roof of the building onto people. walking on the street below. Right. He used hand towels to wipe his bottom and left it for people.

He did not care about humans. They had something in common in that sense. He also was incredibly abusive to Glenn, not necessarily physically, but she had an eating disorder and he would like lock the kitchen and he would around the table, he would really grill her, want her to learn the languages of like Latin. in French and if she got something wrong, he would demean her and debase her and he would scream at her, but then at the same time, he would praise her. So he was constantly doing mind manipulations with her as well. This is not to give her any sort of break, but this is, if you ever

want to understand the psychology of a psychopath, understand who made them. And so this is her father. So, yeah, I mean, Glenn was so key to making everyone feel comfortable. And her Roller-Dex was impressive. I mean, she literally would just cozy up to people, get their numbers, and then put it in the little black books, send notes out. She managed the list. She managed their social connections. She made them wrong. Right. And she also had a sort of faux charity, right? Her ocean charity. Well, everyone needs a charity in that world. Right. But philanthropy also works as a cover for illicit behavior, right? And it's... Oh, it is. Yeah. into your world that assume that they're doing legitimate business with you. And in fact, what you're doing is giving them cover. Yeah.

It's laundering a reputation. Also expressing that you have, you have such a surplus of money that you can spend it on charity. And so much of that world is about upper class world is about, you know, being able to, being keeping up with the Joneses and this was her thing. And she cared about the ocean. Okay. I mean, fine. She did TED talks on it.

Of the young women you spoke to, who were the ones that left the biggest impression on you? Well, besides Virginia, who I found to be incredibly brave because for so long, she had kept going for a decade, over decade. No one will listen to her or believe her for so long. I found her to be a very singular voice in society, like a victim that would not, a survivor who would not stop talking and trying to tell her story. So I really found her to be completely compelling. and she tried to turn her pain into something that would prevent this from happening again. And sadly, you know, having known her well, she really struggled with her mental health, as so many of them do. That's why there's such a high suicide rate among these victims of sexual assault and domestic violence and specifically the upsteen victims.

Now, Courtney Wilde, she was the victim behind the Crime Victims' Rights Act behind proving that, that the, in the sweetheart deal that the crime victim's rights were violated. And she fought for over a decade. From prison, by the way, to do this. The irony is that she ends up in a Florida prison and Epstein is in a jail. And she ends up in a Florida prison for like shoplifting. But she was just, she was furious. She was enraged.

The way it started with her, I mean, she was 12 years old. She had braces on her teeth. She ends up at Epstein's house through the pyramid scheme at the high school. you know, she then realizes for $200, she could bring in her friends. She brings her best friends in there. And she gets another $200 for every friend. She comes from a poor family on the other side of the intercoastal in Palm Beach and, you know, and a trailer.

And she has such low self-esteem. Glenn ran it at the top level, but there was also deputies below her, like Sarah Kellan and a few others, Natia Marcyonkova. I mean, it was a pyramid. I mean, Glenn was at the top, but there were others. as well. And this was a pyramid within the pyramid, and they were all just little girls. And so for, and actually Courtney said, like, you know, she would, she would be envious when she couldn't go to the island with the other girls. And she would, you know, she felt like she was being rejected. And when, and when

the police came to her, when they were working on the case, she, she thought, she went to Epstein. She goes, I don't know what I did. I did something wrong. She saw herself as a child prostitute. And And Epstein said, don't worry, I'll take care of it. Here's my lawyer. So then she goes to meet with Epstein's lawyer. And when they met at a bar, I mean, she's like 16 or 17 or she was young, he made her feel like a prostitute. And she just felt this ickiness about it. And she decided, I'm not doing anything.

I'm going to leave this alone. But Epstein gave a lot of these girls, these underage girls' lawyers so that they wouldn't speak. And so a lot of them rely on Epstein's lawyers. And some of them said, he's awesome. Like, he's amazing. I mean, that's a psychological grooming that is really hard to understand. And the thing that broke through for Courtney, which made her realize that she's a human being that deserved more than that was reading. So the feds were trying to reach her, this great prosecutor, Marie Filafania, who ended up actually dropping the case, sadly, from pressure, political pressure.

But she really was trying to reach Courtney. And Courtney was just like running away, being like, I don't want to talk to you. I don't want to talk to you. I don't want to have anything to do with this. And that's the problem. Jane Does don't want to talk. That's generally how it works. That's why they go by Jane Does.

And the way that they thought maybe they could get her to talk was by just dropping off files, depositions of other victims. And so they would show them evidence from other victims. Yeah. Like unnamed Jane Do's. They dropped off some testimony at her house. And she'd just been resisting them, running away from them, thinking that they're coming for her, not Jeffrey Epstein, for her, because she was the one that did something wrong. And so she starts reading it and she recognizes the story because it's the story of her best friend.

And she starts to cry and she sobs. And she realizes, I'm a victim. Like, I have been victimized. And even if I think I'm worth nothing, even if I think I'm the bottom of a, you know, bottom of a shoe, like a piece of gum, these girls, these other victims, they deserve someone fighting for them. And so many, this is what I've always found when I, when I work with these victims and I, and I interview them is so few of them actually believe it's ever been about them. It's really about other people because their self-esteem is so destroyed by what they've been through.

And so the only thing that keeps them, like, that really drives them often isn't about fighting for themselves, is about fighting for the others. and that's why they call themselves like Survivor Sisters, and they feel like, because they're, they become so depleted, they become dehumanized that it's hard for them to even realize that like they deserve to be protected by the justice system. It's hard for them to believe that they deserve justice. But then they're like, you know what, I may not deserve it because I'm the scum of the earth

because Jeffrey Epstein used my body and I'm this and that. But these other girls didn't deserve it. And so that's why I'm going to fight. It's very rare that I hear. girl saying this is for me, this is for me. They always look at the others and I get it. It's just like it's the grooming is so intense. And especially when it happens that young, it's, it's really hard to break that mold.

I mean, girls testifying, Jeffrey's awesome. He's amazing. It's like, they thought he was a benefactor. So as we've said, Todd Blanche, the deputy AG is going to talk to Gillen Maxwell. there's now a real cross, there's a real interest from both parties in keeping this story under the spot bite. What do the women who were trafficked by Gillen and Jeffrey Epstein think about this now? What do they think? Have you talked to any of them about Gillen now being, you know, being center of attention again?

they feel re-victimized by it. I mean, I spoke to Maria Farmer, who was assaulted by her. She said that she feels re-victimized by the government again. Dan Bongino, Pam Bondi's number two, has said repeatedly that he doesn't want to do that. Do you think that's true? I don't think putting out the grand jury files would re-victimized them. Some may be, and I'm sure some have privacy concerns, what I think would revictimize them is a leniency deal for Golan Mac.

Well, clemency, a pardon. The idea that her word matters more than them, that would re-victimize them. Some of them are really happy to see the story out there and to see it plaguing the powers that be. I know that. I mean, the victims, we text all day long, the survivors, you know, we were constantly texting. And, you know, they're happy to see that you and I are talking right now. And they're happy to see that their story stays, their story can. continues and that we're focusing on them. But if the government takes a wrong turn on this and

suddenly turns Glenn into a martyr, gives her a deal, I just think they're going to be furious. I mean, they were already furious. It's, they haven't gotten any justice in this case. Okay. Well, it's a very interesting story. It's clearly caused enormous panic in the White House. you can see no one understanding how to push the narrative along, which is something that traditionally they've been very skilled at. Tara, we know that you'll be following this story or talking to the women at the heart of it. Please keep us informed and please come back and tell us more as the story develops. And who knows what happens to Gillesne Maxwell, but she couldn't have anticipated this.

I think she's probably feeling like she's very lucky right now. And that's an unfortunate thing. Who knows what Todd Blanche is going to be discussing with Gillen Maxwell this week. But the one thing is really clear, even if you're not a conspiracy theorist, and I'm really not, it's impossible not to think there's some kind of conspiracy going on here. I mean, the opacity is extraordinary. And what's clear is that Jeffrey Epstein continues to haunt the president from beyond the grave. Regardless of whether or not you're a conspiracy theorist, don't forget to share this episode with your friends. And even people you

don't like. Hell, just send it to your entire contacts book. And don't forget to leave us a comment. We read them. We love them. I try and answer as many as we can. And don't forget to be Beast. This podcast was produced by Devin Rodgerino, Anna Von Erson, and edited by Jesse Milwood. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the Beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to the DailyBeast.com slash membership slash podcast and sign up today.