The Daily Beast Podcast - Why Melania's Case Terrifies Team Trump: Wolff

Episode Date: January 4, 2026

Michael Wolff joins Joanna Coles to probe the growing mystery around Melania Trump — the first lady who rarely appears, rarely speaks, and yet increasingly shapes the atmosphere around Donald Trump. Wolff explores why Melania’s absence feels deliberate, how lawsuits and the threat of depositions have sharpened attention on her, and why Trump’s team appears determined to keep her out of reach of process servers and cameras alike. Wolff examines why discovery terrifies Trumpworld more than accusation, why Melania’s distance reads like leverage, and how one reluctant witness can destabilize a carefully managed narrative. If the quietest person in Trump’s orbit may also be the one who knows the most, what happens when the courts — not the campaign — decide who gets to ask the questions? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Your business is a super-exito with Shopify. Empea. One of the things that we have been trying to do is to serve the first lady. Hit her with papers and saying, you're served. That's hard to do. Well, this past week, we went into court, and so we've asked the court to essentially deem her served. This is almost pro forma that the court would say, yes, she served.

And you can continue your litigation. But before the court said that, they finally responded. to us because they went into court to ask that our suit be moved from the New York courts to the federal courts. That's a delay tactic, which means that we have to start the service process all over again. Michael, happy new year. Joanna, I'm glad to see you back. Is it possible you haven't moved from that chair since we last talked to each other? I haven't moved from this chair in 30 years. Well, well, well, what an extraordinary year 2025 was.

And I guess my first question for you, because why wouldn't we get straight into it, is was 2025 peak Trump? Yes. Is it all, is 2026 downhill? I, you know, I think it's, I think it's downhill from here for Donald Trump. And I think we can move into words like crumbling. Because this always happens in second terms, number one. Number two, the reverse side of being so successful, and by successful, I mean dominating in the first year,

that everything he does now catches up to him. So he has not hedged his hedged his bets at all. He has not looked at this year as a as a year of of political triangulation. What he's looked at this year as I have a limited amount of time I must do everything I want to do, which he has done, partly because it's a Trump thing. Like, I don't think one or two or three steps ahead. I just want what I want, and I want it now. And all of this stuff, the chickens come home to roost. So I think he has this, he has a major economic problems. He went in, promising something, telling everyone, continuing, to tell everyone it's great, it's better.

And that is clearly a problem. The healthcare thing, I think, is going to be monumental, which is going to cave in on him, not just the cost of health care, which is hitting everyone like this week, but the RFK Jr stuff. No, the country is not going to take it. It is, we're going to have,

The measles thing is going to go, is going to be a kind of constant headline this year. The ice stuff, the videos of these ice guys, all, again, it is, there is only so much people can take. The incompetence of the people around him, Heg-Siff and Company, let's call it that. of this stuff now comes the moment. Now, in classic political terms, second term,

second, in the in a president's second term, what happens now is we clean house. We get rid of all of these people. And he's not going to do that. He's going to double down. The doubling

down of Donald Trump is going to create a doubling down effect in the opposition. So I think that this is going to be a phenomenally hard year for him, the exact, the mirror opposite of the year of the year we've just had. Fascinating. And of course, he's a man of extremes as well. So as you say, he got in there successful, got on with it, and now those things will catch up with him. Also, I would add to that, not only are people looking at their health care bills and the state of healthcare, but there is the state of his own health, which is one of those things which now becomes apparent, his limp, he's constantly talking about his mental health, the strange interview he gave to the Wall Street Journal earlier this week, where he said that, you know, he took, you know, three times the amount, the recommended amount of,

Of aspirin because he wants thin blood pumping through his heart instead of thick blood. And you're like, dude, what are you talking about? No, no. And he, you know, I mean, this is the other, the thing. This is what people see. Exactly. I mean, you know, you see the guy and you think, well, that is not the guy we used to see. This is a guy who is, and that's the thing about the presidency.

and it's the thing that he has avoided until now. You see someone age before your eyes. Right. We've seen him falling asleep in cabinet meetings, not once, not twice, but several times. We see him walking with a strange gate to his right leg. No one can forget the picture of him on 9-11 where literally the right side of his face is drooping. It's very clear when he talks about having regular mental, health tests or cognitive tests, which actually I thought you and I should take that cognitive test. We should do it on inside Trump's head and we should challenge readers to do it with us.

So we can see if we can tell the difference between a hippo, a giraffe, a lion and a crocodile. What if we can't? Well, we might not be able to. We might not be able to, in which case, perhaps he is indeed acing these tests and he is a man for all seasons. But I suspect he's not. And I understand the reticence of people to diagnose public figures. But it's very clear because we can see it. Some of this stuff is obvious.

And you can see it in friends. You can see it in your parents. You can see it in your relatives. And everybody's had this experience of watching someone age. You could see this in Barack Obama. You could see Barack Obama aging and he was a man. in his 40s. So now we have a man who is, who will be 80 this year. So I think we are going to see this in speeded up motion. Well, we also see it in his frenzied, even more peculiar than the last

social posts and the frenetic posting at three in the morning, the misspellings, the hateful things he saying, which give people an insight into his character, which we know that people have often said, well, I don't like Donald Trump, but I like what he stands for. I think he's going to make change. I would challenge you somewhat on this. And you feel that these are extreme and off the wall and indicative of somebody falling apart because you're paying attention to them now. The interesting thing is that they have been there for quite some time. I mean, I find that. I think It's getting worse, Michael. I think they're getting worse. No, only because you didn't see that. Throughout the campaign, I was on top of these.

And if anyone had bothered to look. And in people in the campaign, during the whole 24, 2024 cycle would say, oh, my God. These are Trump people, would say, oh, my God, we're so glad he's not on Twitter. because on truth social, which has where nobody is on truth social, except him, nobody saw this absolutely crazy stuff. Hasn't, in the time that we last saw each other, hasn't truth social also merged with a nuclear fusion company? No, I mean, we got to talk about this sometime. I mean, this is the larger and in a, of,

a critical topic, which is just coming under the grift. The money Trump is making for himself. And again, and we've said this before, but I think we should keep coming back to this. People were appalled, appalled when Bill Clinton made $20 million from the presidency. Trump is set to make, Trump has already made billion. he will make, he will make by the time he leaves this, leaves the presidency, $10 billion at least.

I think we should do several episodes on Trump's Gryft and exactly how much money. And when you say Clinton made $20 million, Bill Clinton, you mean because he got big book contracts after he left the White House, not in the White House. I mean, the Clinton initiative, all of this was looked at as, as a particular grift. and it was a particular grift, except it was such small fried grift

compared to what is happening now. Okay, so that brings us on to the subject of billionaires a little bit. I want to add one more thing because we have neglected in looking at 2026. What have we neglected? Well, we've neglected to this. Epstein. Epstein. Epstein. So I believe, I believe. But we've only just started talking. I'm just saying we've only just

started talking. 2026 becomes the Epstein story closes in on Trump. Okay. So we have the healthcare premiums. We have also another thing we haven't mentioned is the Supreme Court saying that he's going to have to pull out the National Guard from Chicago, Portland and L.A., which also seems like a defeat. So he goes in, does exactly what he wants and then things start to catch up with him. And that's a big one. We saw both Governor Pritzker and Governor Newsom or Newscum, as Trump refers to him, making a hay with Scotus's decision. One of the other things which we're going to keep our eye on in which everyone in the White House certainly has their eye on is the decision by the Supreme Court on tariffs. Right. And it is very very very.

very likely, I would say more likely than not, that they actually, that they come down on the side of, you know, he can't do that. He cannot unilaterally impose tariffs, which will make him crazy. And it will unravel much of the, whatever economic plan he had, he will, when that happens, have no plan at all. Well, that won't be the first time he hasn't had a plan, but it'd be interesting to see whether or not Congress plan to grow a backbone because he's pretty much sidelined them since January the 20th, 2025. Well, we're going to see another thing because remember, we are also looking at, and this is part of the second year woes, we are looking at the midterm elections. So the one thing that is going to make members of Congress grow a backbone or look for some independence and some distance from Trump is their own fate and careers.

Well, and being primaried by a Trump or a MAGA candidate now is not the death sentence that it once was. In fact, it's very clear that... Well, we will also shortly move out of that cycle. It's not a question of being primary because we will run to the limits of when one had to declare. So you mean sort of post-what March, there will be... People will be free to start flexing their own independence.

It's different in every state, but that's a rolling deadline, and it will be just people running for re-election and doing what they have to do. that involves for Republicans distancing themselves from Donald Trump, they will. It's absolutely fascinating. So the other thing that we have going on is we can't ignore the Democrats now. And we have their new candidate, the Democratic Socialists, or an Mamdani sworn in on New Year's Day, with his anti-billionaire manifesto.

You know, and I think one of the interesting things about that is how many Trump voters in New York voted for Mamdani. So we have a message that's being absorbed by lots and lots of people who have been outside of the political system or I think what are called low propensity voters, now embracing a message which is not that dissimilar from the Trump message, except that the Trump is getting hoisted by his own message. I'm a populist, except that the only people I'm really interested in are billionaires, and I have paved the way for them to own this administration and this country. But the Mondani thing is very much targeted right at that. Whatever this, the perception in the country that something has gone terribly wrong

and it has gone terribly wrong because of a, of a of a conspiracy which involves these people, which also is part of the Epstein story. So I think that's going to be, again, certainly a 2026 theme. Well, we're certainly going to see,

I think, and I feel like I went away with a group of friends for New Year's. We went to Italy for a week. Friends from all over the world. super fun trip. But there was a conversation around Mam Darnie where I thought, oh, we're going to start getting Mam Darnie derangement syndrome. This is not just about Trump. And I see it slightly differently. I think that he's a once-in-a-generation politician, as is Trump, extremely skillful. And up against absolutely terrible opposition, Andrew Cuomo was a woefully bad candidate. Curtis Slewa was just not a real

candidate. And so the only real option was this young, good-looking, smiley man who promised affordability, which is what a huge generation of people want. And they feel they've been left out. And could there be anything more grotesque than frankly watching Jeff Bezos and his new wife on St. Bart's sort of dancing on banquettes as a motorcycle rode through their restaurant with a girl with a big champagne bottle and those sparklers. I mean, for God's sake, man, you're single-handedly starting the revolution here. I wanted to reach from Molotov cocktail after I saw that performance. And I couldn't be less revolutionary, but there is something so grotesque about these displays of conspicuous consumption.

There's a piece in the times, I think it's the Times today, by six. Sam Tannenhouse about Mom Donnie. And Sam, it's interesting because Sam usually writes about conservatives. You know, he wrote a brilliant biography of Whitaker Chambers and an even more brilliant biography of William F. Buckley, actually. One of my singularly reading pleasures of the year was Sam's Buckley biography. Can't recommend it more. Oh, my God, you're beginning to speak him.

book blurbs can't recommend it more like the book. I've written many of books. Something's happened to you. Something's happened to a holiday. This is a great book. Okay. Sam Town and House take it to the bank while it's still there. And but it's but it's and I recommend the piece on mom donnie. It really gets to to this is a this you know essentially essentially in in the piece Sam talks about Mamdani defining a new political ideology, but an ideology outside of the bounds of the conventional thinking of ideology.

So this is ideology as culture. Yeah, I read that piece too, and I thought it was sort of, I thought it was somewhat academic. The ideology of affordability is not new. It's just a different word. it's just people want a city they can afford to live in and New York is super expensive. Well, I think the greater the greater point was that here is a message that spoke to lots of Trump voters. I think the other part of it is that something has gone terribly wrong and we are pinning it on or Mom Donnie is pinning it on. And as in his way, Trump pinned it on a class of people who are.

out of touch. I too had a dinner last night with a lot of people who were New Yorkers who were appalled by by Mamdani's election. And I thought, hmm, yeah, these are out of touch. Yeah, well, and I think one of the issues is that people see the extremes of wealth much more now on social media. I mean, Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez, constant posting of what they are doing. and the courting of the paparazzi feels like a new moment for very wealthy people. We've always had very wealthy people, but for the most part, they're largely discreet. Let's clarify that. There are many, many, many more very, very, very wealthy people than ever before.

So this is not just more of the same. This is something has singularly happened within, you know, not. the sort of the post-financial crisis world. But isn't that a good thing? If America is a country that people come to because they want to fulfill more than the American dream, but they want to grasp the opportunity that America has always traditionally offered,

especially to immigrants, isn't the fact that there are more billionaires, more multi-millionaires, a good thing? Why is this suddenly a bad thing? The point of America is it's the land of opportunity. The problem with, with money is that everything gravitates to it. And if there is so much more money and so many more people with it,

then that begins to describe almost every aspect of the culture. It influences everything. There is nothing that everything then becomes a reflection of what a billionaire or people with that kind of money want. There is then, and that's the feeling that I think so many people have, there's no room for anyone else, no concern for everyone else. Everyone becomes a second-class citizen. Well, I think that's incredibly well put, and you'll write about the extremes of it,

but that's always been the thing that people liked about America. But you have to think about extremes as a, how extreme. and how much room there is for anything else, if there is no room for anything else but that extreme, then that becomes a substantial issue. And I mean, we've seen this, we've seen this kind of reaction before. I mean, the Gilded Age, of course, was, was created a reaction that lasted for decades, literally against that. So, and I think we are in this. I mean, I mean, and we should, we should spend some time talking about this because something really profound has happened, the billionaire takeover of almost every aspect of American life. And that has happened since

the 1980s. And we're coming to a moment in Trump and confirmed. Confusingly, Trump gets to be president because on a populist platform, but clearly he is the avatar of the billionaire nation. And they all immediately, certainly in the second term, gathered around him and now seem to be plotting to take whatever he has created, with either plotting to realize the spoils of this or in the case of Peter Thiel, J.D. Vance, plotting something much darker. Well, and I think it's underpinned by an anxiety around AI, right? And whether or not AI brings the sort of mass unemployment or the mass disruption that people keep saying it's going to,

you've got Jeffrey Hinton running around saying the world is about to end. So you've got the extremes of the impact of AI. You've got the visible nature of all the, it's particularly tech billionaires, right, who are showing up to support Trump because they get the sense of deregulation. Tech billionaires have the media spotlight. But Trump is surrounded also by a whole legion of old-fashioned. billionaires of guys who made their money

in mining and in oil and in and of course finance you know the billionaires are the newest iteration of that or as Trump says the crypto guys

you know during the campaign when when Trump became frustrated with having to do fundraisers he said why do I have to do this the crypto guys will give me anything I need. Yeah, of course they will because that's how they get wealthy. And once more, a word from our sponsors. And Michael Wolf and I are back inside Donald Trump's head for the first time in

2006. All right, so we've got a lot planned for the year then. We're going to get into Trump's own grift and his family's grift and his friend's grift. We're going to get into the billionaire airgrift and the opportunism around having Trump as a president. We're going to get into Trump's health, his physical health and his mental health, and is he deteriorating, which seems to be the case because we can see it. And we are going to continue because I think this is a story that gets only, only bigger, the drumbeat louder, Epstein, Epstein. Epstein. Epstein, Epstein. And the connection and, you know, the whole, you know, again, and I think it's important to frame this, we are in this Epstein drama because Trump told his supporters the MAGA world that had nothing to do with him. You know, he may have seen Jeffrey Epstein once, you know, wave to him and that was the extent of their, of their relationship. And I think, and I think the

people took him at his word. And so they shifted this. This was, this was, you know, Trump was, Epstein was about a lot of, a lot of Democrats who were perverts beginning with Bill Clinton. That turns out, and this is really a kind of revelation for people of the past year, that this turns out to be not true at all. or in proportion, the proportion has been off, that it is Trump who has been the closest political figure to Jeffrey Epstein.

And again, two friends for not only friends for 15 years, but probably for each of them the closest relationship in their lives. So we've laid out our wares for the coming months. Where are we with your own particular case against the First Lady? And just reminding people that last year, you brought an anti-slapsuit against her after she tried to close you down talking about her relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and Melania and how they met. Right. So I've always thought that Melania is a key part of the puzzle. happened with Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump, Melania sheds an enormous amount of light. Melania with her relationship both to Epstein and then how she came into her relationship with Donald Trump.

Well, and also I think the world of modeling, right? Because at the time, the currency of... Central to this story. And so the brief background is I discussed this and then immediately got a letter from from her attorneys, a man by the name of Alejandro Brito, who is, who has represented that Trump in a lot of these libel suits that he brings. And he brings them for the purposes of, of financial gain. Well, both financial game and for controlling the media, intimidating the media. So he's the guy behind the Wall Street Journal. He was the guy behind CBS, ABC. York Times and the BBC.

The BBC now. So at any rate, I got a letter from him saying, you know, you got to not talk about Melania and Trump or we're going to sue you for a billion dollars. Before they could sue me for a billion dollars, and the likelihood is that they probably had no intention of suing me that this was just an effort to intimidate me. But before they could do that, we went into court and sued them in New York State under these under laws expressly against using the libel statutes for the express purpose to intimidate legitimate speech. So that happened. We filed that suit on October 22nd. Now, in that time, and that's almost 10 weeks ago, one of the things that we have been charged,

trying to do is to serve the first lady. It turns out to be very difficult to serve, hit her with papers and saying, you're served. That's hard to do. Now, I mean, usually in these kinds of things, everybody, you know, especially celebrities recognize this and they say, okay, you serve my lawyers and, you know, because this is going to happen inevitably. They have not done this. They have, they have, they have run in, they're basically hiding. They don't want this to go forward because they're kind of, they've kind of screwed themselves. I file suit. That means I can subpoena them. That means I can ask Melania Trump, Donald Trump, all of their friends, basically anything I want about the relationship to Jeffrey Epstein. That is something that I

think they cannot let happen. So at any rate. Michael, how long can she avoid being served? Well, this past week, we went into court and said and said, hey, we've done everything

humanly possible to serve her. And so we've asked the court to essentially deem her served or to carve a way that was service would be achievable. And remember, so we have not heard from Melania or her lawyers. But having done that, in the court would, this is almost pro forma,

that the court would say, yes, she served, and you can continue your litigation. But before the court said that, they finally responded to us because they went into court to ask that our suit, suit be moved from New York State to, from the New York courts to the federal courts. That's a move. That's a, that's a delay tactic, which means that we have to start the service process all over again.

But the interesting thing was they brought in some, a big international firm, DLA Piper, I think. Yeah, big new, well, big, yeah, a huge law firm, corporate lawful. Global firm, which is a crazy, I mean, they don't seem to have any expertise in, in libel law. But this is what Trump always does. Hire some new firm, ask questions later. Well, and sometimes doesn't pay the lawyers, right? Of course, of course.

So, but that's where, so that's, that's basically where this is. They have now gone into, they're asking the federal court to take this suit over, take it from state court. Now, the other interesting thing, though, is that this means that we can, in discovery, ask Melania where she lives. I mean, we maintain that she lives in New York City, and therefore New York court is the proper venue for this. So we get to ask her. And presumably she has to prove it, does she? What with cell phone records or? Well, yeah, all of that.

And we get to say how many, you know, we will get to expose or we have the possibility of exposing probably one of the most tortured living arrangements among a presidential couple in history. How fascinating. So we'll figure out where the first. First Lady actually lives. Or, and by we might extrapolate from that, whether she really is the first lady. Is she not the first lady if she doesn't live at the White House? Well, I don't know.

I mean, if she's, if she's, I mean, she's certainly at best the most attenuated first lady in the history of the United States. It's very interesting and this, they may be completely disconnected, but, or unconnected, I should say, but it's True, we've seen more of her smiling at Donald Trump's side in the last month or so. Some of that is perhaps the holidays and some of that may be the run up to the release of her documentary at the end of January, which I for one can't wait for. Yes. No, I suspect that is. I mean, the documentary will be her big unveiling.

I also made a mistake in our last podcast by referring to her as kind of. coming from Czechoslovakia, of course, she comes from Sravina, which was part of Yugoslavia, and I got that wrong, and lots of people pointed that out. So thank you for pointing that out. But there is tremendous interest in your case with Melania, and we have more questions for you as you gear up to take her on. And I should just say, and this is, I'm sure, Mr. Brito from Coral Gables, this is also a sore spot with them, that we have, we started a, a Go Fund Me page, which has raised now almost $800,000 to, with which to pursue the First Lady and the, and how many different people, how many different people has that come from?

That's not a billionaire giving you a check and saying, go for Michael Wolfe. No, I think that's well over 20,000 people now. Wow. Well over 20,000 people have written you a check or committed to supporting the funds. to find out the truth about Malaya, how she met Donald Trump. You can see the roll, $5, $20, oh, $50, $3. It's quite amazing. And gratefully, another commercial message.

Michael Wolfe and I are back delving around in Donald Trump's head. Obviously, one of the most persistent questions is how did she get her Einstein visa because she was a model not traditionally associated with getting an Einstein visa, and also she wasn't a supermodel. I mean, she was a catalog model. There are different gradations of model. At the time, it was peak model in terms of the modeling industry. And she really wasn't up there with Kate Mars and Naomi Campbell.

I mean, far from it. She was hardly working. You know, she only becomes a, supermodel in quotes when she begins her relationship with Donald Trump and he starts to promote her as a supermodel. She's not a supermodel, except he announces that he is, of course, his girlfriend is, of course, a supermod. So he has to make her a supermodel.

I thought her silver dress on New Year's Eve at their Mar-a-Lago party was pretty cool and I thought it was, I didn't love the, I have a silver coat, so I didn't love the comparisons to a burrito that there were online. I thought that was, I thought that wasn't entirely appropriate. I thought she looked pretty hot in the silver dress, actually. All right, question for Melania, and this is over, this is from Overit 999. Show us your immigration papers, meaning everything that is part of your citizenship process. did you lie on your personal website saying you graduated from college?

Are there lies like this on your immigration paperwork? So this is, and this is a very good example of why they can't let her sit for a deposition. I mean, why they are screwed because she will have to sit for a deposition. We continue this lawsuit, and as I say, we certainly have the funds to continue it. This is going to end up with her before a court. So does she do what Jeffrey Epstein did, which is plead the fifth? On the advice of my lawyers, I plead the fifth. She'll be directed by the court to answer the question. She has to sit for a deposition. I do not recall. I do not recall. Please read my book, Melania.

Written by myself. Nobody else. Nobody thanked in that book. No page of acknowledgments. The most bizarre book. Right. Well, AI written. Michael, Michael, is it going to be televised? Is it going to be televised? Well, there will probably be video if it won't be televised. And I don't know the, I don't know who has the ability to release the video or not. But this is, this is, she, she cannot let this happen. So she will either, I mean, her options are to run up.

out the clock on this, which they will certainly try to do. They will, every delay tactic that's available to them, they will use. But eventually the clock runs out and they have to keep moving. But eventually, yes, I guess at some point they could come and offer to settle this. Okay. So what settlement, what settlement offer would I take? You know, I don't know. I might, I might, what, what if they were to say, they're not going to say this,

but what if they were to say that they would, they would enter into covenants, never again to sue any media organization for, for liable? Would I accept that possibly? Yes. But it would have to be something as definitive as that. Okay, so we have a question from a question from Carla Brookner. There is one character in this story who seems to have flown under the radar, Paolo Zampoli.

No one, as far as I know, has ever delved into how and under what circumstances he brought Melania to NYC. Well, I can guarantee. I can guarantee. We are delving and we will continue to delve. Okay, so we have all had a master class in the United States. the heinous behavior of multiple model agency owners, but somehow Zampoli has evaded scrutiny. He arranged the- He will no longer evade that scrutiny. Okay, good, because she's just reminding us, he arranged the party at the Kit Kat Club where

Malani has said she met her future husband, but he's still very much a part of the inner circle as he is currently the U.S. Special Representative for Global Partnerships. On the case. Yeah, on the case. That's a great question. Thank you, Carla Bracken. Okay, we have many other questions which we'll get to in future episodes, but we have a lot of stuff to cover over the next few weeks. So, and I cover this more deeply and in more detail in my substack.

That's howl tales of our time. So if you want to follow, blow by blow, it's all there. Trump has hit his peak and it's all downhill. from now on. So more questions please from all of you as Michael's case heats up. Michael. I have to go and pick up my daughter at the skating rink. Oh my goodness, you do. You have to go. Fly like the wind. I don't let her put you on skates, Michael. You know, it's, they glide. It really looks attractive. It looks very attractive. I'm just

saying it's the bones take longer to heal at our stage. I take your point. Right. Michael, I will be back on Tuesday with more inside Trump's head. Great. See you. And a big thanks to our Bee Beast level members, of whom we have several new ones. So thank you very much. Yvette Johnson, me thinks, Betsy O'Farrell, Mills and Linz, Shell B. Max Cubit, David Sherry, Thomas Moore, Maria Voltaine, D. Cuea Watts, Sinia Lund, John Overrocker, Deb K. Ostrander, Sandra Clark, travels with Carl, Andrew Beaver, Caponator, Harry Clark, Dawn McCarthy, Daniel Doglover, M. Griner, Dysstone, Fulvia, Orlando, Herbie, Andrew Meller,

Tatnell, Val Love Francisco, Will Hutchison, Andrea Hodel, Bocock, D.C., Sharon Shipley, Connie Rutherford, Karen White and Heidi Riley. And a big thanks to our production team, Devonroderino, Rachel Rosenfield, and our editor, Jesse Millwood. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studied The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to the DailyBeast.com slash membership slash podcast and sign up today.