The Daily Beast Podcast - Why Mueller Dropped the Ball. Was He Corrupt or Incompetent?

Episode Date: August 19, 2020

Molly Jong-Fast and Rick Wilson were up late to fight crime after a “seamless” night two of the Democratic National Convention. Former Democratic presidential candidate Rep. Eric Swalwell joined a special edition of The New Abnormal which asked—after the publication of the Senate Intelligence Committee’s final report on Russian electoral interference—what the Hell happened with Robert Mueller?   Molly’s interpretation of the 1,000 page report was pretty clear: “It seemed like a lot of shoes dropped in that the Trump campaign was giving clues to Roger Stone, which got passed to Julian Assange to influence the 2016 election. But it seems like Mueller dropped the ball on this… I’m no expert, but it, it sort of looks like collusion.”   “Is Mueller incompetent? is Mueller corrupt? What is happening with him?” she asked.   Rick, a former Republican insider, suggested that the failure of the Mueller report to nail the Trump campaign came down to Mueller’s temperament. “I think Mueller was too much of an institutionalist and too much of an incrementalist. And I think when you’re that kind of person, you have trouble understanding sometimes just how fucking wily and corrupt people like this are.”   Rep. Swalwell had another answer. “He did not pursue the finances. And also he did not put the President's ass in a witness chair. And those, I think, were the two shortcomings.”   Trump’s failure to stand up to Russia on behalf of the U.S. has left a huge opening for former Vice President Joe Biden and Rick was impressed by his move to lock down the kind of voters who backed Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush.   “The Democratic Party for the first time, in a lot of ways, since John F. Kennedy seized control of the national security narrative again, and position themselves as the party of strength because they came right out and made it a centerpiece of tonight,” he said.   Molly suggested the DNC also did well to contrast the potential First Ladies. “It seems almost unfair, you know, to watch Jill Biden in the school she is teaching at versus Melania building a tennis pavilion.” Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi folks, it's Rick Wilson, and welcome to The Daily Beasts, The New Abnormal. Hi, I'm Molly Jongfast, a left-wing pundit, an editor-at-large at the Daily Beast. I'm also an editor at The Daily Beast, a former Republican political strategist, best-selling author, and full-time troublemaker. We're here to have fun, sharp conversations with some of the smartest people in media, politics, business, and science that help make what's happening in the country and the world clearer. I'll try to keep Rick to the minimum number of F-bombs and try to keep our kids, pets, and other wildlife sounds from invading our respective bunkers. Hi, Rick Wilson.

Good evening, Molly John Fast. How are you this fine evening? I'm great. I just love being up late at night. What I've heard is that you ride around Manhattan on a motorcycle, clad from head to toe in black leather. That's right. It's my great joy to be up late. Do you fight crime? I fight crime. I crime. You know, just like the president of the United States, who also crimes. He crimes like a mofo. Key crimes quite a lot. And we'll get to this further later in the broadcast because America, I have an apology for you. Last night's special Democratic National Convention broadcast lacked the one element for which we are contractually obligated and obliged by state and federal law to provide, which is a segment called fuck this guy. Yes.

We didn't do it last night. We apologize. We shall make up for it tonight with extra venom. So. Yes. We will. And we have some good people for fuck that guy. We do have some good fuck that guys.

So, Molly. What did you think of the convention this evening? I actually thought that tonight was somehow a lot better than last night. You know, Michelle Obama is like a once-in-a-lifetime politician who refuses to run for office. But so we didn't have that tonight, but I felt like it seemed more seamless tonight. I thought that too, and I thought that they pulled off doing the roll call in a weird way that went more smoothly than you would see it in a normally televised production on the floor of a convention center. I mean, I actually, for the first couple, my friend Mike Madrid said this earlier today, he said, you know, for the first couple, it was kind of weird. And then you're like, oh, this is how it should be done. And also the other thing is Democrats have like a decent candidate and Republicans have like insane racism, Russia, the pandemic. I mean, like, it just, it seems almost unfair, you know, to watch Jill Biden in the school she's teaching at and versus Melania. with building a tennis pavilion?

I have made the joke now probably 17 times today, but I'm really excited about Melania doing the same speech that Michelle Obama did last night. I can't stop it. I just can't help it. There is no way that Melania will be able to remember all those words. But I would say the point is that Joe Biden is very sort of decent and human, and Melania is whatever that is. Well, look, I think that what we're going to see, I think that was important was that the Democratic Party, for the first time in a lot of ways, since John F. Kennedy seized control of the national security narrative again and positioned themselves as the party of strength because they came right out and made it a centerpiece of tonight that Donald Trump laughs off and ignores the fact that Russia is paying bounties to slaughter American soldiers. And they recaptured that with a parade of both line soldiers and general

officers who were all saying, you know, they have, you know, fought for this country and worked to protect this country, and they know Joe Biden can do it. I thought that was really interesting and especially interesting as it regards the fact that they're targeting independent men in places like Ohio and Pennsylvania and Michigan and Wisconsin in those states where they lean a little more toward wanting somebody who's going to be strong on national security. Those are the people that elected, you know, Ronald Reagan and George Herbert Walker Bush and George W. Bush because their national security instinct is to be with the tougher candidate.

I think Biden positioned himself as the smart, tough candidate on national security tonight. I thought that was a really interesting moment for him. Yeah. No, I thought he did a good job, and I thought Sally Yates was good. There was a lot of sort of interesting stuff. I thought she was great, by the way. I'm not sure. Yeah, and I thought that national security montage was good.

Oh, by the way, Molly, I mean, I think also the importance of the national security stuff in the convention tonight also came at a perfect moment because the House, excuse me, the Senate Republican-led Intelligence Committee today came out with their 1,000-page Russia report. And do you know, did you notice that it totally exonerated the president? Did you see the same one that I saw? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I had a tab open. Mine had a tab open to a Maga Eagle Patriot Super Q Forum 9,000. That's the wrong page. Sorry. Oh, yeah. The report completely says that the Trump campaign was up to their ass in fucking

Russians. They call Paul Manafort a grave national security threat. And they also suggested criminal charges against Jr. And Clovis, remember Clovis? I mean, we haven't seen him from season, since he's from the way back now. And of course, Steve Bannon lied. And oh, you're, I know you'll be shocked to discover than the report that Roger Stone lied. Oh my goodness. Wait, but then, and he also shopped for a part. Right. Of course. Right. So he did exactly what Bill Barr said he would be considered to be a crime. Correct. So essentially, I'm waiting for this to percolate through the Fox machine because they will try to repurpose this and find like two or three items in it and say, see, it was the deep state. Oh, trying to screw the president. But I just, I found it a weirdly striking contrast between the Democrats getting serious on national security tonight, taking that high ground back on it.

At the same time, Trump is, you know, the entire no collusion, you're the puppet line, has been completely blown up once again by an investigative report. And it also brings the question of, you know, why didn't Mueller get there? But here we go. Right. I was just about to get there. Is Mueller incompetent? Is Mueller corrupt?

I think Mueller was too much of an institutionalist and too much of a incrementalist. And I think when you're that kind of person, you have trouble. understanding sometimes just how fucking wily and corrupt people like this are and just what that's quite like i i am not disputing you but i do think that you know with a democratic majority in the senate next time there's an opportunity to revisit many of these questions in great and extraordinarily painful and expensive legal detail that is a real shame i feel like you don't mean that's a shame i I feel like you're saying that's a shame, but the way you're saying it, a little bit ironic. By shame, I mean, a delicious prospect.

He's right now in his apartment thinking, he's like, I think I should better start duolingo for Arabic. Because maybe Jared can get me a condo on the Red Sea somewhere when we have to flee the country. And he's like, Kimberly, you're coming with? Kimberly, wait, what? The new abnormal is going to release a limited run series of bonus interviews over the next few weeks. Starting in August, we'll release a new one each Sunday. But listen carefully. Only Beast Inside members will have access to these.

So head over to new abnormal. The Daily Beast.com to join now. Your Beast Inside membership helps support the great reporting at The Beast and podcasts like The New Abnormal. Thanks. Eric Swallow was the congressman from California's 15th District, a former 2020 Democratic presidential candidate. a member of Congress's Intelligence Committee, and a returning guest to the new abnormal. It must be weird to be watching this and not to be at it and just the weirdness of it. It's weird. There's no doubt about it. I miss just the emotional moments of being in a convention hall.

And certainly 2016, you know, the historic nomination of Secretary Clinton and especially Michelle Obama's speech. It's different. It's not to say we haven't adapted, but, you know, you just miss looking at it. at how the speeches are affecting the people around you and you don't get to see that. Nothing can replace that. And also the schmoozing, right? I mean, isn't that a big part of it? I'm so low on the totem pole. I don't get invited to those parties, Molly. Yeah, but you're a fancy congressman. You must like, people must be, you know. After the after party. There's the after parties. Yes. I definitely missed those. And that's where, of course, everyone really takes stock of what happened that night. Look, we're adapting and there's

only one person to blame that we can't all be in person, Donald Trump. Yes. I thought that the Democrats, I mean, from what we've seen so far, have started to really make a good case that this is the case against Donald Trump and COVID. Have you been happy with that? Yeah, I think that the goal of a convention has to be unity, vision, execution. So certainly the unity in the party, right? You have two rivals who ran and the primary are united on the ticket. Bernie Sanders last night, I thought, really, you know, brought things home and was convincing to his supporters. But then also to have Republicans, right, from Kasich to Whitman to Molinari, you know, and then tonight, Colin Powell, you know, it's unity within the party, unity, you know,

across party spectrum. And then on vision, really focusing last night on COVID, because that's the most urgent need is, you know, a health care crisis. But people really, they really want to know, what are you going to do not in the first hundred days, that's how long a president usually gets. What are you going to do in the first hundred hours? Because that's how urgent the needs are right now. Can we talk a little bit about where we are right now with the post office? Congress is coming back or the House is coming back, but the Senate won't because of Mitch, right? Correct. And so we're scared by his corruption, but we're spared by his incompetence. Right. Donald Trump, you know, recognizes that while our elections are decentralized,

least county by county, the connective tissue is the postal service. And so, you know, if you want to sabotage an election, that is one way to do it, except that he did not realize collaterally he is sabotaging seniors and veterans who rely on prescription drugs. And some of those are his voters, and they're pretty pissed off. And this is backfired. And so we're going to vote this week to pass the postal service funding. I think the pressure will mount on McConnell. But at the very least, as we saw with the Ukraine investigation. Even though he was not removed from office, once we launched the investigation, Ukraine got the aid. And so here, once we've launched the investigation, it looks like DeJoy is already reversing a lot of what we had done.

So that may not be completely sufficient, but just shining a light sometimes is the best you can do until you have a new government. Is Mitch is never going to bring the Senate back, right? even though people are losing their homes and the post office isn't funded. You know, Mitch will do what's best for Mitch. And Mitch today updated his Twitter profile with a picture of Mitch wearing a mask. So he at least, I think, recognizes, you know, the times that we're in. He's got the best funded Senate candidate running against him. And so I think, you know, your listeners should be inspired that, you know, being loud, you know,

getting in front of, at least on social media or, you know, the texting and the postcard writing to Corey Gardner and Martha McSally, Susan Collins, other vulnerable senators to get them to call Mitch to have them come back into session. We shouldn't give up on it because that can move them. Okay. So that is something that people who are listening should be doing is getting the vulnerable Republican senators to talk to Mitch. And your listeners, you know, caring enough about, you know, the issue of the Postal Service being dismantled. Look, that has brought Congress. back to session. Credit to Speaker Pelosi, right? You know, the August recess has traditionally been a time when members are in their district off across the world on congressional delegations before a pandemic. And I've seen other instances that were pretty alarming and pressing and Congress was not called back into session. And the fact that Speaker Pelosi would act, you know, so swiftly with a plan, I think shows that, you know, she is, you know, in tune with what people care about.

So today was an interesting day with everything that happened. And it seemed like a lot of shoes dropped in that the Trump campaign was giving clues to Roger Stone, which got passed to Julian Assange to influence the 2016 election. It seems like Mueller dropped the ball on this. Can you explain to me what is going on? Seems like they colluded, right? I mean, I'm no expert, but it sure looks like collusion. Yeah, but also, if you recall, Bill Barr, when he was in front of the Senate, was asked, Hey, Mr. Barr, just giving you a hypothetical, president exchanges a pardon for a witness's silence. What do you do? And he, without missing a beat, said, well, that would be a crime. So turns out that was no longer a hypothetical because Roger Stone is telling anyone who listens that I had the opportunity to roll on Donald Trump because he had lied to Mueller about WikiLeaks.

I didn't do that. Give me my pardon or commutation. Trump, the very day that Stone says that, the loudest, gets his commutation. And so I had asked Barr at his hearing, why isn't Trump being investigated? And now, and Barr, of course, said smugly, why would I? Well, now we know why he should be because that Senate report makes it pretty clear, draws a straight line between Stone and Trump's knowledge. And it just shows, I think, that the fixes in that Barr is the new Michael Cohen with powers that Michael Cohen would have dreamed to have had, you know, the weight of U.S. government. We're not helpless. We can remove all of these guys in just a couple of weeks.

What happened with Mueller? He did not pursue the finances. And also he did not put the president's ass in a witness chair. And that, I think, were the two shortcomings. And I don't want to give any equivalence between Mueller and Trump, because Mueller, Purple Heart, given to Mueller for his bravery, presided after September 11. I mean, a man of real integrity. But you have to look at the finances when you are looking at any person, you know, who is potentially engaged in money laundering or has compromise over them. And Donald Trump said that was a red line. And so Mueller did not do that. And also Mueller did not press Trump to sit down and answer questions. And so Trump was essentially given the questions ahead of time and was able to respond to them in writing.

And he still lied, by the way, as we see now at the Senate report. So those were the two shortcomings. And, you know, thankfully, the Senate report, it looks like went a little bit farther with the work they did on Trump's knowledge of Russia and WikiLeaks. That's a bipartisan commission that showed that Trump colluded. I don't understand why Mueller couldn't thread that needle. Molly, I think something that Donald Trump does that is so masterful is he gets in your head and gets you to do something that you wouldn't otherwise do because he's created a, you know, false strawman. And the example I would give to you is in 2016, as Russia was literally interfering in our elections, Donald Trump was simultaneously saying, the election's going to be rigged. The election's going to be rigged. And we learned as we interviewed administration officials after what Russia did that they didn't want to call Russia out so publicly or respond so aggressively because they feared that it would validate Donald Trump's claims that the election was going to be rigged. And so even though the rigging was on his behalf, he got administration officials. officials who knew what the right call was to do something differently because they didn't want to validate his bullshit claims. And that's where Donald can be so successful. And that's what he did

with Mueller with the red lines and saying that it was a witch hunt and it was taking too long. Mueller thought, if I call him in, he will fight me in court. It could take over a year. I don't have time to do that. When there was no timeline, in any white collar investigation, it typically takes two to three years before you would bring an indictment. But again, Trump created artificial timelines and these straw men and got people to do something I don't think they would otherwise do. But the Senate had recommendations like recommendations for criminal charges against junior and a bunch of other people. Why did none of those ever see the light of day? And by the way, the statute of limitations has not yet run on many of the birds.

And my hope is that independent prosecutors will look at this. But you know, what's interesting, Molly, is that the Senate's report comes well, well, well, over a year, almost a year and a half after Mueller's report, which is about the amount of time that a white-collar investigation would take. And so I think Mueller's report was rushed in a sense because Trump had every day been saying that this is a witch hunt and it got in the head, you know, of the special counsel. And the report came up short on what it looked at. But still, 10 different acts of obstruction of justice is, that's pretty damning that Mueller found. And you can only imagine what he would have found if he had looked at the money or put the president

in the witness chair. What's happening with Russia and China right now? The continued election interference? Yeah, and Molly, I think it's conflating the threats to put Russia and China in the same sentence. And actually, that's what Donald Trump wants us to do. And that's what he's had his intelligence officials do. And he has a great interest in doing that because only Russia is using its vast resources to help Donald Trump and hurt Joe Biden. No other country is trying to carry out a preference in the outcome. Certainly China has vast resources, but there's only evidence of one country trying to help one candidate and hurt the other, just as they did in 2016. And that's right. But what Trump wants you to believe is that if, you know, he was the weatherman, he would start the hour by talking about,

you know, a snowstorm in the Rockies, and then mid-hour talk about a lightning storm in the Midwest. And in the last 30 seconds say, oh, by the way, Category 5 hurricane, it's going to hit Florida, have a great night. Like he would conflate all of those events to have you think that they're the same when Russia is the only one that has done this before and is actively trying to do it again. There's nothing that the government is going to do against this Russian interference. But because we have the majority, credit to Speaker Pelosi and Chairman Schiff, they have called out the intelligence community to make sure that the public knows that Russia is actively trying to hurt Biden help Trump. And just a month ago, they were really conflating the threats. And because the speaker and the chairman have been pressing them, a public statement just two weeks ago came out that made it clear what Russia is doing. If we didn't have the majority, we would be in no position to do that. And we don't have any directives from the president to really counter what Russia is doing. But voters now have an awareness, I believe, that hopefully, you know, inoculates Joe Biden from what will continue to be spurious attacks by the Russians, laundered through Ron Johnson and Lindsey Graham in the Senate, as they're trying to do right now. Do you think there's an October surprise?

My fear, Molly, is that if the election is close, that there will be a November surprise after the election day, where Donald Trump is claiming that the outcome was rigged, Bill Barr's filing lawsuits for him. Russia is amplifying discord on social media, armed militiamen and their camo gear are protecting the president, you know, at the White House. That's if it's close. But Donald Trump's a coward. And if it's not close, I think he just vanishes and, you know, is not going to put up a fight. So the challenge for us is to not make it close. So, Molly, you know, I know the convention has been another night of convention news. But I understand you have a special entry in our Fuck That Woman segment this evening.

Today was a Tuesday and Tuesdays are primary days. So tonight's Fuck That guy has just recently been endorsed. by the president of the United States. You mean a... She may be banned from Uber. Uber, Eats, Twitter, Instagram, VINMO, pretty much all other social media platforms. Check the way.

The four remaining blockbuster stores. That's right. Jiffy Lou. When the world won't rent you a video, you might be Laura Lomer. Loomer. Looney. She won her primary tonight.

She beat a Q-Anon-on candidate. and now she's going to take her case to the American people of Florida's... 21. Let me just comment on Florida 21 for a second. It is both blue and very liberal and also extremely Democratic and also shockful of people who don't vote for Republicans, as well as being solidly in the column for which Nancy Pelosi can expect to have a safe vote for a speaker. and Laura Lumer is going to grift her way into probably several million dollars of campaign money from Trump's tweet and from the – but you know what? This president, by the way, let's get real here for a second. Let's not – I mean, all kidding aside on the fuck that guy thing, she richly deserves it.

Laura is the most prominent Islamophobic in all of America. But you know, I mean, when she assembles her staff when she's elected, I mean, Chief of Staff – Chief of Staff Jacob Wall. Communications Director Milo Yianopoulos, legislative director Lauren Southern. I mean, these people are

like a dream team of Maga World who've been thrown off all social media platforms. Who's your fuck that guy, Rick Wilson?

It's the my pillow, fuck you. Did you see that thing? I saw Anderson Cooper gut him, take Mike Lindell out to the barn and slaughter him

like an ox. It was so gratifying and so delicious. What are they doing to oxes in Florida? We have oxen in Florida. No, I know, but are they slaughter? Anyway, continue. Mike Lindell is now pushing an extract from the oleander plant, which if you grow up in Florida,

you have a lot of oleander around. And when you grow up learning in Florida, don't touch the fucking oleander. Don't burn the oleander because it puts off cyanide fucking gas. It's a tree that produces. uses very nasty things. Dell is on this board of some flimflam company that is pushing oleandrin,

which is an extract from the oleander plant. This is like the science of homeopathic horseshit writ large with the president's bestie, one of the few corporate officials in the country that will be seen within a 500-mile radius of this fuck wit. He's now pushing

this, and the federal government is heaving in behind this thing, and oleandrin is going to be the new the new hydroxychloroquine. And it just blows me away how these fucking scales are able to influence the decisions of the FDA, the CDC, and everyone else. It is, it is, I promise you there will be a moment soon where Trump says from the podium, oleandrine, many people are telling me it's really good. It works.

Here's the COVID. I'm going to take it if I have to. Fuck that guy. On that note, we'll wrap up this episode of the new abnormal from the Daily Bee. In future episodes, we'll be talking with smart folks from The Daily Beast and beyond from media, culture, politics, and science who will help us understand what's happening to our country and the world. We hope you'll subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app and share the show on social media. We're just getting started and don't want you to miss an episode. If you'd like to follow us on Twitter, I'm Molly JongFest and he's the Rick Wilson.

Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you again on the next episode. Want more great listens? check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the Beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to the DailyBeast.com slash membership slash podcast and sign up today.