The Daily Beast Podcast - Why Musk Just Made Trump Really Paranoid about JD

Episode Date: June 9, 2025

Joanna Coles returns to dissect the latest turn in the Trump–Elon Musk war—and who better to decode the thoughts in Donald Trump's head than Michael Wolff, Trump's biographer. Wolff explains how the feud puts JD Vance's future in question because Vance's "only hardcore support" is from within the tech community. Wolff reminds us that Trump's Epstein connection still hangs over Trump like a sword Damocles. And Wolff shares that within the White House, people are saying "Thank God for LA" and the mass protests against ICE agents, which have stolen the American people's attention. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Joanna Cole's chief content officer of The Daily Beast and this is the Daily Beast podcast. Thank you again for your thousands of comments. We are trying to plow through them all. It's very, very helpful to know what you think. And there is so much intelligent commentary around this extraordinarily historic moment in America. Today's guest is in the Hamptons. I'm in London and the National Guard are in Los Angeles. What the hell is going on?

We have no time to waste. We're talking, of course, to the man who lives inside Donald Trump's head, the best-selling author Michael Wolfe, who's written four books about Donald Trump. He's spent the weekend talking to people in the White House. Let's get into it. Michael, I've got withdrawal symptoms from having not spoken to you for 48 hours. And the world seems to have changed. You're in the Hamptons. in London, the National Guard is in L.A. Again, please explain to us what's going on. I feel like last time we talked, we were on the edge of a cliffhanger. And we've come back for you to explain the episode to us, but it hasn't gone where I was expecting. And I know you've been posting over the

weekend on Michael Wolf, NYC on Instagram, but I want you to bring listeners and viewers of this podcast up to date with what the hell is going on between Trump, and mask an America. Well, I don't think we, we, I mean, this is still playing out. So it's not, it's not, it's not that it hasn't gone where we expected it to go. It may well go where we expected it to go. It's just that in the, in the drama, in both men, both principles are composing a drama here. I mean, they're both working out the narrative in their own minds.

And it's almost as if Elon is creating a spin-off series now. Yes, but it could come back. I mean, I think the point is he will bring this, he will bring this back together. You know, the conflict, the conflict has to come back, but you can't in any kind of, kind of traditional dramatic structure. in some sense it always comes back to a traditional dramatic structure, you're going to delay the climax for some time, as long as you possibly can. How long will the series run?

But I think Elon, on his side, you know, he may be feeling that he has gotten ahead of his skis for the moment. and he may be feeling, you know, I'm the richest man in the world, but this is against the government in the United States. Even the richest man in the world against the government of the United States has to pause for a second. I did feel a bit like we were watching a Shonda Rhymes drama where she suddenly kills one of the favorite characters in the middle of the drama.

like, whoa, I didn't see that coming. Because even though you had predicted that it would end badly between Elon and Trump and your money was on Trump winning, it felt like it came very quickly. And also, although they had that press conference in the White House where Donald Trump presented Elon Musk with the key, and there was the very symbolic black eye, which Donald Trump said Elon didn't want to cover up with makeup, it very quickly deteriorated. And of course, they both own social media platforms. Well, it had already, I mean, behind the scenes, it had already deteriorated. Okay, can you talk a little bit more about?

Well, I mean, they were, they were, you know, Elon was was demanding more. I think that that he was increasingly upset with the people around Trump and how they were frustrating what he was trying to do. and he was increasingly frustrated, of course, with Trump himself. I mean, I think that he went into this accepting Trump is a crazy person, but I can deal with that. I think he went into that accepting that, but also believing that Trump had bought into his proposition. that technology could streamline government in a sort of revolutionize the management of government. So beyond the fact that Elon is a megalomaniac and a control freak and has an agenda that change moment by moment,

there was, he is in the end, and his real gift is as a management person. This is what he does incredibly well, perhaps better than anybody, I don't know, could we say since Henry Ford, you know, it is, and that's, that was, if there was a messianic vision that he brought to that, it was this, I can bring this to government, I can bring this talent to government. And Trump was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, sure, sure, sure. And again, Trump's inability to understand, even feign interest in the details is one of the most striking things about him. So I think Elon took that first as agreement. I don't have to explain. He's on board.

And then increasingly found that as an impediment. The guy is not, the guy doesn't understand what I'm doing here. And also, was it also that, I mean, Elon, I mean, you mentioned Henry Ford. There's also comparisons to Benjamin Franklin, that there is something very serious at the core of Elon about creating disruptive technology, which does transform lives. And Donald Trump is not a serious person. Ultimately, he's not a serious person. Of course that. But not only is he not a serious person. You can't even engage with these subjects with him, which again, in the beginning, seems like he agrees with you. Just go do it. And then you find, you find that it's just a, it's just a,

a rock in the middle of the road, a man who doesn't understand anything and who is not interested in anything. When you're really trying to do something that requires enormous amount of attention and commitment. On the daily podcast, Jonathan Swan mentioned that after Elon had been presented with the key and the cameras had moved out of the room, Donald Trump had said to him in a somewhat humiliating fashion that he would no longer be supporting Elon's choice to run NASA, a guy called Jared Isaacman. Is that also important? Do you think that was also triggering for Elon in his then spiral of things? Yeah, no. I think Swan always gets the human element wrong. And there is only the human element when it comes to Donald Trump. This is not about agenda. It's not about

policy. I think Swan's implication was that was that Trump saw this as a power grab by Elon. It's just a slap in the face. Elon wanted something. Trump decided not to give it to him. And Elon apparently wanted this very much. So Trump took particular joy in not giving this to him. but not for any other reason other than to take this slap at Elon. Musk wants this, so I'm not going to give it to him. You know, never, never underestimate the pettiness of certainly of Trump and no doubt of Musk too. And what you have here, the larger issue here is that is the difference between between a government run by individuals and a government which is essentially the, you know, the function of

institutions. And, and I mean, I can't think of a clearer example of this, the clash of these, of these two guys who are all about them, what I want, what, you know, nobody else really counts. And this, and this is going on within the White House itself, and this is one of the things that happened over the weekend or really since Thursday, it is very clearly, are you, and this is the way several people in the White House have articulated this to me, are you Team POTUS or are you Team Musk? and if your team Musk, that's bad news. I mean, everybody who is who who, who Musk has brought into the government, and it's quite a lot of people, are now tainted.

And they have to go through, you know, I mean, they have to now, and very quickly prove their absolute. devotion to to Trump. They have abandoned Musk and they are and they are on the Trump side. And again, which is another layer of this Trump White House, the demands for absolute loyalty. I mean, loyalty so performative that that that anyone, anyone with a with a with a scintilla of personal dignity is in trouble. So how seriously are they taking Elon Musk's criticisms? I mean, this is the first time we've seen someone as powerful as Musk actually go up against

the president. We saw his barrage of tweets, yes, he's taken some of them down. But are they anxious that he can go out there, create a real fissure in the Republican Party, maybe start a third party and draw enough support away from? the MAGA of the Republicans to actually create real difficulties. Well, I mean, where does, and then I want to come on to where does J.D. Vance sit in all this? Yeah, and understand that one of the Trump strengths, one of the things that the people around Trump count on rely on is, is that Trump will always, always go over the top in any conflict.

So he is in certain, certainly in any head to head, he will take down the other head. I mean, there is something about Trump that it just lets him do what nobody else would do. And now there is now a fear in the White House that Elon, you know, I mean, how do you say this, that Elon is as crazy as Trump. Right. And that he's a worthy rival for Trump. that, I mean, we saw Trump trying to solidify all the press connections and get his side of the story out, because he seemed to call every reporter he knew over the weekend to say his side of the party.

But now he seems, I mean, you've always consistently said Donald Trump needs an enemy, and now he has an enemy who seems unafraid of him. Yeah, no. And within the White House, that is the sudden, you know, existential thing floating in the air, what will, what might Musk do? How far would he go? And that was symbolized most of all by the Epstein stuff. So the Epstein stuff floats around Trump as a, as a consistent, as a consistent threat, as a consistent Silver Bullet, really. You know, again, and I think I've said this here before, when Steve Bannon met Jeffrey Epstein in the fall of 2017, the first thing he said to Epstein was, you were the only person I was

was afraid of during the 2016 campaign. And that still is this is this thing that that that that that that floats around. What was going on there? What did these guys do together? Is that the thing that could kill Trump? And so when when when when musk brought that up, it was like, okay, this is this is um, you know, he's going to the line. And it seems significant. He since, withdrawn the treat? It seems significant he's since taken down that tweet. Yes. I mean, you know, I think that that, well, I mean, I would read that as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, this is, you know, he made the threat. Now he's back down the threat. Could he, could he, could he, um, um, and, and that's a negotiating moment, but he could always bring back the threat.

Michael, hold that thought. Let's just take some messages from our sponsors. Love our sponsors. Let's get back into it with the author Michael Wolf. Can we please talk about J.D. Vance in all this? What is the White House thinking about his role here? And I mean, certainly some people I've talked to have said that they think that Musk is actually working to get Donald Trump impeached because he would rather have, and all his tech friends would clearly rather have J.D. Vance. No, I think it's the, yeah, I mean, I think it's the one of, I mean, there are several gradations of, of subtext here. But this is a, this is a big one. This potentially compromises J.D. Vance and J.D. Vance's future. I mean, he has, J.D. Vance's really only hardcore support is in the tech bro community.

you know, he's, you know, he's an unlikely Republican. Basically, he's an intellectual. He's, I mean, he's only been in office a very short period of time. He doesn't have a long political career. And, you know, and Trump is, you know, alternative, you know, he's sometimes quite interested and impressed by Vance, and he's sometimes. dismissive of him. I mean, so you never know where you are with with with Trump. So so his foundation is with these tech guys and and with with must being a central

pillar of that. Vance gets to be the vice president or gets to be the vice presidential nomination nominee in July because in part well in strong part because Musk says his support is dependent on that choice. So what does what does Vance do now? And, you know, he's got to be, he's got to profess his absolute loyalty to Trump or he will, or he will just be marginalized within the administration. And also surely Donald Trump will be suspicious of him because of Musk's support and because of the Techbrose support. Yeah, absolutely. So he will challenge.

He will set up. What we will see is a set of tests that Vance is going to have to endure and pass. Otherwise, he is certainly for the short term, kind of screwed within the White House. But I don't know what that means to the other side. If he professes his absolute loyalty to Trump, what about the. other, these, these, this, his other support group. Well, surely he'll be saying to his other support group on Signal or some other means of communication that he thinks is private list.

And I'm just, I have to put out personal statements of support for Donald Trump. I can't do anything other than perform utmost loyalty. But of course, if you try to impeach him, I'll be there to step in. I mean, that, you know, it's the. Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I don't think it quite, it quite, it's quite, it's quite, it's quite as easy as that. You know, there is, I mean, people know when you're, you know, when you're blowing smoke.

I mean, Donald Trump is actually very good at this. Right. I have seen this. I have seen, you know, him, you know, here's a man who demands flattery on a constant basis. And yet, we'll call you on it. You're just flattering me because that's what you have to say. So he not only needs flattery, but he needs flattery that really seems sincere.

So it's fascinating. So the National Guard goes in to L.A. over the weekends. First time it's been called in and certainly against the will of the Governor Gavin Newsom. To what extent is this an attempt to... The first time, just since in 1965, I mean, this is profound. Right. No, no. that's why I'm raising it. Is this actually an attempt, a very cynical attempt, in fact, a

shockingly cynical attempt to just change the narrative? Well, certainly that's an advantage. And within the White House this weekend, several people that I spoke to were saying, oh, thank God for L.A. And you'll notice, there is no Elon today in the headlines. It is all L.A. And again, this is this is to Trump pattern. You know, you change the headline with a bigger headline. And this is a pretty big headline. I mean, this is an extraordinary event. Among all of the extraordinary events since January 20th,

I'd say this is the big one. Well, it's the big one up until now. I mean, it's the big one until next week. Yes, no. And there is, you know, there's a lot of fear in the White House, too, because when you unleash troops, I mean, you can't tell what's going to happen. And within the White House, they're talking about, well, you know, well, we're, you know, I mean, you know, we just hope that there isn't another Rodney King is what they're saying.

So this could change on a dime. Of course, in the Trump. method, well, we would just come up with another headline. Right. And of course, that would be the, that would be the invasion of Greenland, probably. Or Mexico or Canada. Right. I mean, and also Mark Carney would be an interesting, I mean, he's a more interesting rival than the poor prime minister of Denmark, who we, we don't even know what he looks like. Um, I mean, I've got so many questions, but I mean, one of the big changes since Rodney King and, and one was mindful of watching people, um, witnessing the riots this weekend was just the number of cell phones out there.

To what extent also is this Elon Musk and Donald Trump trying to drum up business for their social media platform? Well, it, you know, I mean, this is, and I mean, that sounds, it sounds trivial. But there's billions of dollars at risk for, for each man. And, and this is the nature of social media. of course, you are making business for yourself. This is great for Twitter X, and it is great for truth social. And so, you know, one of the things among these kind of verticals at all times, working in Donald Trump's head is a cash register.

You know, what is my worth? What is my net worth? and truth social is is key to that at this point. He is, he has built himself through truth social, so through the campaign and getting elected, another fortune, a legitimate multi-billion dollar fortune, which he never had, by the way, before. Right.

And I mean, we had Stephanie Ruhl on the podcast last week saying that Elon is one of the possible purchases of truth social, with X at some point. So actually it's foolish of of Trump to go after Elon as a potential purchaser, which would actually concretize the value of truth social. Well, Elon's one of the few people who could actually write him a check for truth social. Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to, I'm trying to think that that sounds unlikely. Okay. Okay. I mean, I mean, I'm. It seemed plausible when she said it. I thought how interesting, because at some point, he'll want to monetize.

I mean, that question is, I mean, all you would be buying is Donald Trump. In other words, truth. You'd be paying a large check for it. All Donald Trump wants to do. Truth social. Truth social has no value other than Donald Trump. And I mean, it has one user, the only social network. I mean, it's otherwise, it remains a complete ghost town.

So I was also very struck by just the sheer sort of old-fashionedness of Donald Trump calling all his reporter friends and non-friends to put his side of the story. Well, that's what he does all of the time. I mean, there is no moment of the day in which, of any day in which that's not going. on. Donald Trump has one means of, well, he's two means of communication through a social network and through the telephone. But it is mostly the telephone. The man is always on the phone, always monologizing whatever his point of view is. It is, I mean, it's that, it's the small loop that he goes, that he operates in. This is my opinion, and I'm telling you, this and you are there to agree with me. And sometimes, I mean, mostly you just go, uh-huh,

uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, and sometimes you just repeat the opinion back. I mean, that, that's the only, that's the only give and take. Here's my opinion. Yes, I love your opinion. Here it is back again. All right. Well, Michael, this story is obviously, especially the, especially with the National Guard now in L.A. going to develop. We'd love to have you back, obviously, to analyze further. And it's very interesting that the White House is fearful of what they may have done or what Donald Trump may have done to trigger Elon Musk. And it's very clear we don't know quite how dangerous Elon Musk is going to be. Absolutely. And I wonder if Elon, I mean, that's a kind of decision for Elon to make.

I mean, how does he go for broke? You know, Trump goes for broke. I mean, he has no risk calculation in his head. And, you know, we've seen Elon go for broke quite a number of times, but I suspect he is a greater risk calculation than Donald Trump. Well, and he's probably got advisors. Do you think he listens to his advisors? he's certainly got boards for his company who must be saying, wait a minute, just put down the phone.

Not particularly. I mean, I don't think he particularly listens. He might listen more than Donald Trump, who absolutely doesn't. Who never listens. He doesn't listen. And he makes a point of pride of not listening. And we'll say his success is because he didn't listen, right? I mean, I'm always.

And by the way, it is. His success is because he doesn't listen. Well, and it's the founding story of almost all the Silicon Valley founders, right, that they say, everybody told me I couldn't do this, everybody said I was crazy, I did it anyway, and now look at me. And that's probably Elon's story too. Yeah, but Silicon Valley really exists in a fairly tight ecosystem of a clear hierarchy of who you have to listen to and who you don't have to listen to. you know, I mean, Elon may be somewhat out of it, but outside of that or above that, but not not entirely. Not entirely. Whereas Donald Trump is entirely outside of any system which can control him.

It's just extraordinary. It's extraordinary. Michael, thank you so much for shedding clarity on what is an extraordinary situation that none of us could have seen. The National Guard in Paramount National Guard. downtown in L.A. And let's track this very closely. And for those of you who want to watch minute by minute,

Michael is on his Instagram on Michael Wolf, NYC. And Michael, I can't wait to talk to you again. I feel like there has to be a daily occurrence. My wolfings. I don't know what else to call them, but I think they're wolfings. We will speak soon. Okay. Thank you.

Well, there you have it. analysis from inside the head of Donald Trump, which is just spilling out across the world and impacting all of us. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget you can follow minute by minute what an earth is going on out there on the Daily Beast.com. It's very easy to subscribe. And please subscribe to this podcast and do leave us a comment. We try to read them. It informs how we think about things. And I know our guests read them too. And tomorrow we'll be back with Anthony Skis. And the only other thing I have to remind you of is be beast. And this podcast was produced by Devin Roderino, Anna von Erson, and it was edited by Jesse Millwood.

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