The Daily Beast Podcast - Why This Election Is the Most Crucial Since the Civil War

Episode Date: October 29, 2023

Matt Bennett, co-founder of national think-tank Third Way, tells The New Abnormal why a second Trump presidency would be a “catastrophe” and leave America “unrecognizable.” Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy and current Campbell News conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Kedden, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. Hello and welcome to another Sunday bonus

edition of the New Abnormal. We thank you so much for being here. Today we have an extra special guest with Matt Bennett of Third Way, who's doing their best to combat no labels plot to swing the election towards former president Donald J. Trump. But first, let's have some fun. Are you guys ready to listen to some Clips. Not really, but Clipper. Tanya, you know you love clips. I do. So while I promise we'll get to some other bullshit, if it stands the test of time, for

now, I'm going to bring you Trump's Monday speech. Let's go. Those people have no problem. If you want to challenge the result of an election, they hound you. Look what happened this weekend with two good people. They hound them and they scare them and they've, but we don't get scared. We don't get scared. I'll tell you what.

I don't mind being Nelson Mandela because I'm doing it for a reason. Oh, no, you did not. No, you did not, Jesse. I wanted to start the blood pressure off high for the job. Danielle, I got this. Please take it because, oh, my God. Oh, I, like, I have no words.

I have no words. The fucking delusion. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. He's really just flying off the cuff with whatever somebody says around him. Like, you know some idiot just walked up and he's like, you know, you're like Nelson Mandela because they watch the documentary at some point. That's the only political prisoner they know. And they're just like, this will sound deep when I say it to the orange man.

I wish that motherfucker would be in jail for over 20 fucking years. I wish that that would be the fucking case in a small goddamn fucking cell. Jesus Christ. Oh my God. I hate, I hate, I hate, I hate him. I have to tell you all, this is going to blow your mind. No, it's not. No one has ever thought of this before.

It's almost like no one in literature has ever alluded to what selfish bastards our country can be at times. Let's take a listen to what he's got to say here. This is on our business. What are you doing that? He said, McCrone, nice guy. You know, look, he's for France. I'm for us. come for us

you know how you spell us right you spell us US I just picked that up has anyone ever thought of that being I just picked that up a couple of days I'm reading and it said us and I said you know if you think about it us equals US isn't that

now if we say something genius they'll never said you know we get 25 30 40 50 50 80 thousand 100 thousand people in the speeches they've never said Trump's a great speaker. Never said. I've never heard it. I said to my people, do you think they'll ever acknowledge? I must be doing okay. Except I'm a very handsome person, so I guess a lot of you want to sit. They want to sit and look at me because I'm saying, like a beauty page. No, it's amazing. Oh my gosh. Just such a buffoon. I just. Has anyone ever said this? It's real genius. I think

every fifth grader realizes not third grader. I really do think he thinks. He thinks. he's the first person who ever thought of that. And I'm sure, like, everyone around him was just like that was... Oh, of course. He lives in this bubble of delude... Like, do people not understand how fucking crazy it is, the shit that he is saying? Like, this is nuts. U.S., no one ever thought of that.

We have since we could spell, motherfucker. Like, are you dumb? Like, not only are you not a genius, I think you may need help. And then I start thinking, like, it'd be bad enough to be like that. But Danielle, like you were thinking like, the people around him who have to sit there and go, oh my God, sir, that's so genius. No one's ever thought of that. Like, imagine being that one of those people.

Imagine having so little self-respect that that's it. That's what you do with your life. And I just, I can't think of anything sadder. I really can. At least Trump gets something out of this. You know, he gets fame and he gets the shit that he likes. Those people don't get jack. shit. And they still just, they ritually debase themselves every minute of the fucking day to be

around him. And they get nothing and he'll throw them under the bus whenever it's convenient for him. And they still do it. And there's just nothing sadder to me than that. What is sadder would be showing Trump his fucking courtroom sketches and saying, like, asking him how gorgeous he is. Oh, my God. Jesus Christ. The other thing I think about, though, is like that they're always saying they're going to getting an unfair shake. They're always the victim.

It's like, he's literally like, why don't you acknowledge this genius thing I said? What it's the dumbest fucking thing possible? Why don't you acknowledge? I'm a great speaker. I must be a great speaker. It's like, you tell a lot of people a lot of racist things they want to hear. It's amazing. And not even in a coherent sentences.

So there's that. God. Is this like Trump a Palooza? Please tell me you have another audio. I will be honest with you. I had four in here, but then there are some. Oh, my God. That, like, there were some other contenders that really got the best of this week.

So on we go to. I also want to benchmark something else. There's a change in the Republican primary. Governor Meatball Rob DeSantis is now moving to try to be a tough guy. And let me tell you, I'm shaking in my four-inch cowboy boots. October of 2020, that first debate was Biden. Biden beat him in that debate. And that was really incredible that he allowed that to have.

happen. But that's, people remember that. I think that had a real significant impact in the election. And we saw in Florida, Trump's numbers started to decline after that. So, so he's got to show that he can, that he can do this. I think it's a different guy in 23 than he was in 2016. I think he was energetic, freewheeling back then. I think it was really about America first. Now I think, he's on the teleprompter. Most of the stuff he's talking about is about himself and his issues. And that's not the inspiring message that's going to be able to win the day with the American people. But look, I think he should debate. And I'm willing to allow him to bring his teleprompter to the debate if that's what he wants

to do. And we will just do it like that. But he should be on that stage in Miami and subsequent debate. I will be there. Oh, Rob. Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob. You know, it's been a week. I forgot about Rob.

I know. I didn't know he was still. trying to be president because he's such like he's so forgettable like he literally is so forgettable even that tacit like trying to punch at trump is like oh did i land one did i land one am i saying the right thing that i go too far like you're such a punk dude oh you'll allow him to bring his teleprompter will allow you to bring your high-heeled boots while still emulating Trump's speech patterns that he studied so hard to learn in 2016. It's like, dude, you're still mimicking this guy and you're trying to insult him.

I know I may have said this about him before. I've definitely said it about other people before. I will nothing could happen to him that would make me feel sad for him. I guess that's not true, but for the most part, nothing in his professional life could happen that would make me feel sad for him. But this is pathetic. This is just so pathetic. the wannabe tough guy act after not going after Trump at all, which is why he's part of the reason

why he's nowhere in the polls is because he's spent this whole time propping up the guy who's leading the polls. And now he's decided, oh, I got to try this Hail Mary pass. It's so pathetic. Yeah. When he drops out, you will hear me blasting dancing in the streets outside of my front yard just to do a nice little celebration of his misery. Okay. So we, we, long known that as Andy says, Jesse Waters is the stupidest man in cable news. But I got to tell you, what he said last night was really actually dangerous and I want to mark it. And while all of this is going on, the FBI has been actively planting information against Donald Trump, doctoring emails and disseminating fake dossiers. The FBI used Biden to get revenge on Trump.

they got a dirty politician elected so they could defeat a politician who caught them trying to frame him and fired their director. And now we have a compromised president in the White House being protected by a rogue gang of sick agents. And the American people are the real victims of this stupid inside game. Well, that was a bunch of things that weren't true.

So I guess Fox is not tired of lawsuits, yeah? They must have the deepest pockets ever because everything out of his mouth was a lie. Everything was directed at the FBI. And everything could be put up in a lawsuit. These people, I pray that Fox goes bankrupt. I really do. I don't think the FBI could sue him. Why not?

Why? Why? I don't think they would have. I think that's why he got away with it. Hmm. I'm going to check with the ACLU on the. I feel like if it could be done the ACL, you would have done it already. Somebody has to sue.

But you're right, Daniel, that that should be, we've seen that that's their vulnerability now. And I do wonder if he's like, oh, no, this is what I can get away with totally baselessly saying. And obviously, he never does an interview and does anything to be held accountable. So he'll get away with it and keep doing it. Yeah. He's so dumb. I think he believes everything he said. He probably does.

A producer probably like said that cooked. that up and he's like, excellent. Oh, love it. You're so disgusting. Like, I feel like every time you put do clips, I need to shower. And it is just... Well, I got bad news for you because finally we're going to wrap us up and I want you both to react to Britney Spears audition for the notebook. Just kidding. We've seen enough horrible things for the other than that. This is the only show where that would have been the fourth worst clip. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. It's like, Folks, I am very happy to welcome to the new abnormal Matt Bennett, who is one of the co-founders of Third Way, which is a national think tank that champions modern center-left ideas and champions

the values that I thought we all shared as Americans, which was opportunity, freedom, and security. But over the last several years, Matt, that has not been the case. We are about to mark, I guess, in the upcoming month, a year out, until what we can only say over and over again is the most consequential presidential election of our lifetime. Before we jump into the specifics, I want to give you an opportunity to talk about you have worked for a couple of administrations. You have been in politics and in policy for a long time. What makes this election, because we use the word consequential, we use the word historic, a little too often that it no longer has the bite that it should. But in your mind, with your season perspective

on politics, what makes this upcoming election probably one of the most dangerous that we can expect? Well, first of all, thanks for having me, Danielle. And I couldn't agree more. We overuse the term most consequential of our lifetime. It seems like every cycle we say that. And we kind of mean it. But this time, I think we are in a category change where I believe the United States, the way that we think about ourselves as a nation, has not been in danger like this since 1865. I think the only comparable moment to this was the Civil War. That is not to say there haven't been other very important presidential elections, but I believe that if this election goes wrong, that if we return Donald Trump to power, we're going to live in a country that will become unrecognizable to us in very short order.

And so I think all of us who believe in democracy should be deeply, deeply worried about the outcome of this election. And it is incumbent on all of us to do everything we possibly can do to prevent that. When we bring up historical points, right, markers like the Civil War, like 1865, I did an interview the other day when somebody said, that this feels right now like 1968. These are all markers in American history that are marred with violence, with bloodshed, with a great divide that either tilted and what we can say about those past events

pushed us further in our progress. This one, though, Matt, for me, this moment feels like it is almost destined to push us light years behind, where we've been. Am I wrong about that sense and that feeling? And I don't know for those that were alive in 68 that could say, no, we felt that this was the moment that was going to push us forward. My assumption is that it was no, right? That America felt like it was being broken wide open. So am I wrong? I don't think you're wrong. I think that you've identified other hinge moments in our

history. Well, in 1860, the hinge swung the right way. Thank goodness, America elected Abraham Lincoln, and we moved the right direction by 65 things were going sideways. But in 1968, the hinge swung the wrong direction. America elected a malign character to be president, and that turned out very badly for us with Nixon, although I would argue that while Nixon was a bad president and a bad person, he did not hold a candle to Donald Trump in either respect. I think a second Trump administration would make the Nixon administration look like he was Abraham Lincoln. that the risk we face from a second Trump term is literally incalculable. We do not have the imagination to think through all that could go horribly wrong with a Trump two.

And just to be clear, to kind of put a fine point on that before we start talking about no labels, is the fact that a second Trump administration would be the last presidential administration. And I don't think that we are talking about that fact enough, that this maligned, twice impeached, 91 charges, four indictments, sexual assaulter, former president of the United States, is hell bent on quote unquote finishing the job that he started. And what that means is January 6, 2021 times a thousand. It means that there are no general Mattis's in place. It means that they've touched the fence, no where it's weak,

and will install the figures that will feel. finish the job. And I feel like that point isn't being pressed hard enough and said loud enough. I would offer a thousand amends to that. I mean, there has just not been enough thinking about what that would all look like. We know episodically, those of us in politics have touched on things. His plan to gut the civil service. His awareness of basically how the levers of power work in the White House now, which is quite different. than when he entered it in 2017. And I think most importantly, the sole emphasis that he places on having loyal, licksbiddle

toadies around him rather than people like General Mattis. And that would be the true catastrophe. So let's talk about no labels. And the premise, as I understand it, behind no labels is this big, quote unquote, independent push that neither party stands for the American values. so we are not going to back either a Republican or a Democrat. We're going to put up somebody that has, quote, unquote, no attachment to labels. However, their desire to do so, and we've seen this happen, we saw it happen in 2016 with a Jill Stein,

that these elections are won by narrower and narrower margins. And so any third party or third position that has any type of weight behind it, is a detriment and it's usually a detriment to Democrats. So speak to that point. That's exactly right. So no labels is a group that was formed about 12 years ago. For most of their history, they have spent their time focused on Congress. They've done some things that one could argue are useful in Congress. They put together what's called the Problem Solvers Caucus of Democrats and Republicans who pledged to reach across the aisle and work together. I would note that all of the Republicans in the Problem Solvers Caucus just voted for Mike Johnson, who was a radical

extremists to be speaker. But leaving that aside, they were basically doing no harm until they announced last year that they were going to do this third party push for president. We could go deep if you want on why they're doing this or why they think Joe Biden is not a good enough president for a group that purports to be moderate. But the fact of the matter is they are pursuing ballot access for their presidential bid in every state. I have a friend in Wyoming. who was solicited by them to get on the ballot so they're really not leaving any stone unturned anywhere. They're already on the ballot in 12 states, including three very serious battleground states, Arizona, Nevada, and North Carolina. And while there is absolutely zero chance that they will

elect a president of their own, what they absolutely could do, to your point about Jill Stein, is serve as a spoiler. And there is no doubt who they would help as a spoiler. And it would be Trump and they would hurt Biden. I just don't see what they're at. end game is. Am I just not getting it, Matt? Like, I don't understand why now you would think, oh, let's run a third candidate. Boy, I am with you on that. I think about this question every minute of every day. And I have not come up with an answer for why they think this is the right moment. As we started at the top, this is the worst possible moment for this. I mean, look, if the downside risk of a spoiled election were Mitt Romney becoming president, well, I'm a Democrat. I would

be unhappy about that, but I wouldn't be lying awake at night in a panic because a Mitt Romney presidency would be bad for normal reasons, but wouldn't be a catastrophe. But now, with the risk that we face from Trump, doing this now is beyond irresponsible and reckless. It is absolutely mind-bogglingly destructive. The reason they claim they're doing this is because people are so unhappy about the prospect of a Trump-Biden rematch that they are demanding a third option. There are a million ways that we know that that just isn't true. Of course, some are unhappy and some would like a third option, enough perhaps to swing the election to Trump, but nowhere close to plurality of a three-way race. I mean, they're not going to win a single state, much less win 270 electoral votes. So it's very

clear that the goal they've set for themselves, which is actually winning the election, not serving as a protest vote, but winning the election is impossible and yet they persist and I don't know why. It just is stupid. I mean, like, let's just say what it is. It's stupid and it's dangerous, two things that should never go together. And the fact is that, look, I believe that at some point in time, we need a multi-party system. I've always believed that.

And I'm a Democrat. I believe that as the Republican Party has gone over the cliff to the right, like they're so right, they're in a circle. Do you know what I'm saying? Like that there is no two-party system. And so because of that, it is necessary that at some point in time, we expand beyond the binary in our politics. That being said, when the alternative looks like Hitler without a mustache, you and people are so angry and so tribalist at this moment that even coming together on somebody who you're saying, you know what? What's the difference between Joe Biden and Donald Trump?

Well, one actually believes in democracy. The other one is saying that they will be your retribution. And by they, he means white people. So like, I don't know how you make the case right now, Matt, that not only is this stupid and ill-timed, that it is incredibly dangerous giving the stakes. I share your view on all of that. And starting with the need for another. party, if the Republican Party remains in the thrall of right-wing populists who are, as you point out,

in many cases, incredibly dangerous, many of them racist, that the people running Republican Party right now are bad people and do not believe in American government. If that remains, we need a third party, eventually. We need a center-right party that are responsible, good people that believe in governing that disagree with you and me on tax policy, but are decent people that can manage to run the country when they're elected to do so. However, No Labels is going about this exactly the opposite of what they should be doing. What they should be doing is trying to build another party from the bottom up, running people for low-level positions, even for Congress. I mean, there are independence in Congress. You could see an independent faction in Congress actually having an impact that could be very valuable.

But instead, they've gone after this through the lens of a presidential race, and that's precisely the wrong way to do it because there is absolutely no way to win. and the only thing you can do is put your finger on the scale for the worst possible outcome, which is Trump winning. I find it exhausting, Matt. Like the question that I have for you is just, you've been doing this a long time. And look, I am a staunch Democrat. I have my critiques and criticisms of Joe Biden.

Would I ever think to myself, I'm not voting for Joe Biden in 2024? No. Did I think about it in 2020? Not after he became the nominee. because I understand exactly how important our elections are. What is it that Democrats need to articulate? Because, I mean, for the love of God, I just named out what Joe Biden is running against.

The man doesn't even have time to pay attention to the needs of the American people because Donald Trump is in four courtrooms and is spinning his wheels, trying to grift as much as possible, from his base so that he can pay his lawyer's fees. So when you have that laid out in front of you, the literal worst person ever to run for president, I just don't know what else Democrats can say.

I don't know what other tap dance they do in order to create a level of consciousness and fear in the American public that you actually don't have a choice right now. Yeah. I mean, look, you and I are professional Democrats. We spend all day thinking about this stuff. and we came to the blindingly obvious conclusion that you just articulated. But unfortunately, there's a lot of people out there, either because their lives are busy and difficult and hectic or because this doesn't interest them, that haven't come to that conclusion. And so what you see,

and the reason we're so alarmed about this, is that Biden's, his floor, the floor of his support, is very squishy, which is to say, in a head-to-head race against Trump, a lot of people will vote for him, who, if they are given a third option, might peel off to them. Meanwhile, Trump's floor, as we know, is rock solid. Once you decide you're for Trump, you don't leave him. And thankfully, Trump's ceiling is also pretty low. It's hard, but it's low. He can't really get about 47 percent, whereas Biden's is not. So in a head-to-head race, unless something big happens between now and next year. I want you to knock on wood. I want you to rub a rabbit's tail as you just said that. A lot of shit can go sideways.

But let's just pray to whatever God you pray to that that doesn't happen. And if we get a head-to-head race, Biden wins because the Biden campaign will have a billion dollars. And it will remind people that Trump is a terrible human being and a horrendous president and can never be allowed near the White House. And I think in a head-to-ed race, that'll be enough, even though it'll be very close. But if you give these soft Biden voters, the people who don't love him but would vote for him against Trump, somewhere else to go, a small but significant percentage of them will peel away. And you made this point earlier. That's what happened in 2016. One of the most remarkable data

points on this is, of course, in 2016, Trump won Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania, the three blue wall states that, to our horror, collapsed on Hillary in 2016. And then in 2020, Joe Biden won all three of those states, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. Amazingly enough, Trump's share of the vote in all three states rose between 2016 and 2020. Why? Because there were no third party candidates the second time around. And Biden's share of the vote relative to Hillary's rose more. So it gives you a very clear idea of how important it is that this be a two-way race for us to be able to win. I mean, only time will tell.

I think that one of the things that make me nervous, right, is the last statement that you said, which was just like, if all things hold. And I think that in all honesty, October 2023 does not feel like October 22. So I can only friggin imagine what the hell October 2024 is going to feel like. And so I do believe that we're going to witness a lot, see a lot and go through a lot as a country. And I don't know if we're going to be dragging ourselves over the finish line is basically my thought. And if we are able to drag ourselves over the finish line with Biden, like what shape, what tatters will we be in? I guess we'll be a question for another day.

Matt, I appreciate you the work that you do and for making the time for the new abnormal. Hope to have you back as we traverse this dangerous terrain. Well, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of the new abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend and keep the conversation going. This podcast is a Daily Beast production with production by Jesse Cannon and Seamus Calder.

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